“But attorney Christopher M. Moody said he thinks the Tangipahoa Parish School Board is likely to ask the 5th U.S. Court of Appeal to overturn Barbier’s decision, though he hadn’t yet consulted with the board. “We think there’s a very good chance” of a reversal, he said.”
By WHAT “reasoning” does Moody “think” such an absurd outcome is remotely possible???
This is nothing more, less or other than prosyletizing and very definitely “religious activity”. There is no place for such in a public school.

The little girl who thought she had to hide the fact that she didn’t really want a Bible but took it because she didn’t want to be hasseled by her schoolmates isn’t a good thing. A child should be free to be who he or she is. This is an example of why religion and public school should be seperate. I realize that LA is a biblebelt state, and really folks she would have a bible if she went to church. Childrens religions are the parents business not the schools, in a Public School system.

Technically, since no government money was used for this, was any law violated? It seems inappropriate in any case. God bless.

The title of this article is totally accurate…Bibles don’t belong in public schools…and the Judge’s ruling was correct. As to it being overturned? Certainly don’t think so. But I’m sure the Bible pushers will try.

Are there any publications the school board would not allow to be given away? Quran (another holy book)? Penthouse (another publication with smut)?
Strikes me if they allow any to be given away they need a logical policy on what.
And the reaction the girl expected and likely would have gotten shows Christianity leaves a whole lot to be desired as a moralizing agent.

This makes me want to walk down the halls of the nearest public school with my Bible clearly visible in my hand. Is this not a free country? While I would have a problem, I suppose, having a school board hand out Bibles, I have no problem with the Gideon organization doing that. They have been doing that for decades. It is what they do.
If the law really means to take all religion out of the public schools, which is impossible, then the law must also bar any statements about God, which would exclude atheistic sentiments that God does not exist.
I’m sorry if you don’t like it, folks, but my faith goes wherever I go. I do not turn my Christian faith off and on to please others. I am a Christian anywhere and everywhere at all times.
And, nnmns, do not make the mistake of thinking the people who would harass this girl for not taking a Bible are Christians. They are children who have been brought up in a faithless world and they, like their parents, only desire to use a religious situation to promote their own agenda of ridicule. They don’t really need the refusal of a Bible to trigger this activity. They are simply bullies who will take any advantage they can to cut down some one else to make themselves feel less inadequate. That is not Christianity. That is human nature, and sinful human nature at that.

In an age when we have to legislate against bullying in schools, why do we need to use the Bible as further incentive for abuse?!
The supreme arrogance and ignorance (as in “to ignore the needs of others”) of some Christians is appalling and embarrassing. It is surely a serious violation of the intent and spirit of the people who compiled it. Any organization that feels they have to do this is betraying their own feeble faith – in themselves, their members, and even the God they seem to so dearly want to serve.
The judge was clearly right both by the letter and the intent of the Law, specifically the first amendment. Any lawyer who says they will take this case is doing either for the money (the better reason, actually) or because they lust after attention. Perhaps they even have political aspirations, and will use this cause as a way to promote themselves.

Christian children have to deal with all kinds and forms of nonsense in public school settings… who is worrying about them and their “feelings and rights”? They constantly have to deal with neo-Darwinism (which thou it is the “accepted” standard has holes the size of Texas in it) and told they would have to be stupid to believe otherwise, they have condoms thrown at them in health class(as though the concept of not having a dozen sexual partners is a really bad idea!) and school councilors who are trying to work in Planned Parenthood to become part of their accepted norms (just to name a few). Talk about pitting kids “school beliefs” against their families…! Do you mean to tell me they still have peer pressure in schools?!!!
Who cares about these kids, why don’t their thoughts and beliefs count, why is it only the non-believers who get protection and always the believers who get persecuted.
Helloooooooooo!!!

yeahrightasif-
As Christians, we are called to follow the teachings of our Lord. We are not called to martyrdom.
Personally, I am concerned about all children (regardless of their faith or lack of) in school….not just my own (Christian) children. If you wish to teach your kids fantasy…go for it….however, public schools should be teaching the most current (peer reviewed) scientific theories. And, evolution fits that category.
I am glad that condoms are distributed to help prevent pregnancy and spread of disease. I personally believe that it would be better if High School let alone Middle School students were not engaging in sexual acts…but, pretending that it is not happening or putting hands on hips and saying that “Abstinence Only” teaching is going to solve the problem is sheer denial.
Funny that you bring up non-believers and suggest that they are the only ones who get protection from other people’s beliefs being forced upon them. It is the non-Christians who need extra protection because there are so many Christians that act and talk as though only their particular flavor of Christianity deserves respect.
If I were designing the curricula for our public high schools….I would absolutely teach Christianity as part of a required “Major Religions of the World” class….that would also include: Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. The Bible would be required reading…..along with the Qur’an, Tanakh, etc.
Other required classes in addition “Major Religions of the World”, would include: “Age of Reason, an intro to Deism” and “Human Secularism, and it’s Importance to Our Nation”.
Teach kids to think and they will find and respect the truth.
Peace!

Windsor Child, did you even read the article? This is not about you or me or any other Christian being able to carry a bible around. Your pastor (like some of my past ones) might have lied to you and told you that you have to watch out because the world is out to get you for doing that, but you have been lied to, and because of that, you can’t even accurately read an article. That is sad that certain churches are instilling such paranoid fears in their members, making them believe they don’t already have power over just about everybody in the country. The fact of the matter is that yours and my religion is THE religion most apt to be forced on children in schools here in the US. No nonprofit is going in and trying to hand out other religions’ books to kids in so many schools in the US. If they were, you might understand and be more compassionate empathetic (like, oh, say, our Christ?) when certain parents and children don’t want the Gideons using publicly funded schools (which children are forced to be at regardless of their religion) to hand out the scriptures of one particular religion. There is NO WAY that any God worth our worship actually wants government schools to be used to put copies of holy scripture into the hands of kids just so we, as Christians, can pat ourselves on the back and feel like we are visible. If we are truly faithful, we know that God is bigger than Gideon bibles and bigger than our own insecurities and persecution complexes.
Comments from fellow Christians such as yourself make me want to start an organization to hand out Pagan writings in schools and put Muslim prayers over the PA systems. I know that the God of my Christian faith does not need Gideons pushing bibles at all hours in schools or prayers read over a PA system to speak to the hearts and minds of our children.

“And, nnmns, do not make the mistake of thinking the people who would harass this girl for not taking a Bible are Christians.”
They’d say they are Christians, they may well belong to Christian organizations, they would not persecute a kid who refused a copy of, say, “The Age of Reason”. No, WC, while I’m glad you don’t want to claim them nonetheless these are Christian kids doing the persecuting.
When I hear that most churches spend some time in Bible classes every year teaching their kids to respect everyone, regardless of religion, then I’ll consider thinking such people are not Christians. I can imagine jesterfyl’s classes doing that but I can’t imagine that has happened to a lot of the people who post on here as Christians.

nnmns-
Our Sunday school kids get a year of “World Religions” in 1st or 2nd grade. Then, in 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th grades one year is Christian History, another is Judaism, and other is Islam and Hinduism, and the other of Buddhism, Atheism, and Deism. The other years are about living the principals of love and compassion, respect, social justice, etc. These classes also take field trips to Jewish Synagogue, Quaker Meeting House, Buddhist Temple, Hindu Temple, and the United Nations.
We also do a coming of age (sexuality) group apart from Sunday school for our middle schoolers and a more intensive Life Issues (sexuality and the real world) for our High School young people. Both classes are taught co-ed with at least one gay and one straight facilitator.
I am in no way suggesting that all Christian churches are doing this…but, there are certainly more than a few.
Peace!

The AP article stated that the girl was a fifth grader, that the Gideons had set up a table in front of the principal’s office, and that teachers were instructed to make clear that no one had to get a Bible if they didn’t want one. I agree with the ruling. If the Gideons wanted to hand out Bibles, they should have set up shop on a public venue near the school (that’s how they did it when I was in high school). But I wonder how much the girl and her family suffered. It appears she had to make an effort to go and get a Bible. She may have felt peer pressure if a group of her friends decided to go as a group to get their Bibles. It also appears that her family is going to great lengths to keep their atheism secret. Have the parents ever instructed their daughter to appear religious in other contexts to maintain the ruse? If not explicitly instructed, has she learned to follow the example they have set? And does accepting a Bible mean that you believe the Bible is true? I think her parents saw an opportunity to make a (valid) point, and in the process, may have exposed her to the ostracism she says she so greatly feared.

All the Gideons have to do is move across the street from the school and hand their Bibles out there. That’s how they did it in Southern California when I was growing up.

JohnQ:
WELL SAID!!!!! in your 1:21 AM post (25 April).
Also your children(and the others in your church) are getting a great jump on knowledge and understanding of other religions as well as learning in a calm, non-judgemental way, about their sexuality and dealing with the decisions they untimately will have to face as they are growing. My kids were raised in a UU church…similar lessons were taught.
To those who think mixing church and state in a public school is OK… it’s NOT…for more than one reason. A recent example of why it isn’t? GWB…the soon to be NOT leader of this country and the mess he has gotten this country into. I’m sure his “saved” self thinks he is working for God and protecting this country by fighting the “bad guys” Iraq those Muslims!

John Q
I got tired of the kids in our youth groups hassling me to watch horror movies, I decided to really scare them. So each Lent in a three year cycle I created a curriculum of what is really scary – Sex Death and Money. I used much of the UU curriculum for sex, but had to do some creative work on death and money. It worked, These were better and more consistently attended and I still hear back from some of the kids (it has been more than 7 years since I did this) about some of the things we have talked about. In terms of sex, I discovered the kids were far more fascinated by romance and relationships, than there were about the mechanics (which they get in school aplenty). The death stuff was especially helpful for many of them, and their families.
So we do not burrow in the Bible in these sessions (there is a Church School class for that – also well attended). We do not proselytize, but we do invite friends and guests to join in. And it works!

The classroom of the public school is not the place for the dissemination of religious texts with the probable intent to proselytize. Use of The Bible and religiius texts can be used as great literature. THE KING JAMES BIBLE is a classic in the English language as are the works of Shakespeare. An opinion on the imlpications of the First Amendment and the separation of church and state. Richard W. Chadburn

I wonder if the school, or any school would allow a group to pass out Anton LeVey’s little book (“The Satanic Bible”) or Scott Cunningham’s Wiccan handbook (“A Guide for the Solitary Practitioner”)? Why not? If they allow the Gideons then every other religious group must be allowed. The “Seperation of Church and State” is about equal treatment, not showing preferential treatment to any one religious belief. From a practical point of view, rather than be all inclusive, which would just become a complete logjam, just keep all religion out of state affairs and allow all religion to thrive in people’s private lives.
As to the comment made by sinsonte (April 25, 2008 9:04 AM) “It also appears that her family is going to great lengths to keep their atheism secret.” The sad truth is that Atheism is one of the most misunderstood and least trusted philosophies in america. Some Christians can be quite hateful towards those whom they see as the REAL enemies. Makes you wonder where those kids who would bully “Jane Doe” get their hate from… I am an atheist but I strongly believe in the right of all Americans to practice what ever religion or philosophy they espouse within the realm of their private lives. Not to force others to practice those same beliefs.

Tis tis I for a long time saw no African Americans in school literature our history was almost non-existence so is that how that are going to handle the Bible now also. This country has rich history with the Holy Bible it used to be a standard in all classrooms and the foundation of the educational process as curriculum. Ben Franklin read the Bible to French dignitaries on a business meeting they were impressed the relationship when fine. So many quotes by historic figures in the history of USA. There was no other religious stuff like Wiccan or Buddha or Muslim in our historical culture my spell check is even unfamiliar with Wicca maybe I’m spelling it wrong but that’s not our history, the Bible is and it will not be ignored or forgotten. The Bible thrives when under attack.

Mr. Anonymous-
You note that there were no Wiccans, Buddhists, nor Muslims in our historical culture. There were also no blacks amongst the founding fathers (and, mothers)…thank goodness that too has changed.
The Bible is not under attack. Governmental and/or Public School promotion of the Bible is under attack because we are now an inclusive nation. That does not mean that the Bible is under attack…nor, unimportant…..nor, being ignored. I quote it daily….as do millions of other citizens.
Peace!

Anonmous,
Get a more advanced history book. You will discover that all of the religious groups were well represented in the founding and settling of this nation. WICCA is a fairly recent group, but its antecedents were surely involved in our history. Its not all Jamestown and Plymoth Rock. There is much much more!

No-name poster:
The Bible has NO place in a public school…period. Just because some of the founding fathers (and mothers) read and used the Bible, doesn’t mean it is to be mixed with public education. Want it used in school? Go to a church based school…

jestry,
Not to contradict you, but please name founding parents who were wicca,
moslem, or buddhist. Not a ‘gotcha,” but this is news to me. To keep this post kosher, the little girl (and her parents) in the article were cowards for not coming forward in their atheism. If you can’t stand up to a bunch of elderly Gideons, against whom can you stand?

Freak
This statement is easy to answer-
Makes you wonder where those kids who would bully “Jane Doe” get their hate from…
They get it from their parents, working in an inner city school I am appalled at the parents that scream at teachers, talk down, accuse us of every little fault against their “perfect baby”. They have no respect for anything …other than fashion and fancy cars as far as I can see.
They teach their kids that it is okay to talk back to teachers, to call others names, to hit back instead of talking out problems.
These are all people who call themselves Christians… I agree with WC that they are not, but they still are using the label and going to church, all the while not learning what is being taught there.
The kids are out of control and very unpleasant to be around and guess what this is little ones I’m talking about, Elementary kids who are acting this way. What are they going to be like as teenagers? They talk down to each other and then call the white kids racist, but I have seen more ugliness out of the little girls than you can imagine.
And its my fault as a teacher because they won’t behave in my class, funny thing is they don’t behave any where so what can I do
Sorry for the rant, but these little joys and the “future” of our world have cost me my job because of their behavior, even though all my test scores have risen so I don’t think much of them these days

Mystery Poster:
So sorry to hear that you’ve lost your teaching position due to the “behavior” of the children.
I had some experience with the type of children you mentioned, but fortunately not an entire classroom of them. I personally think the little girls are worse than the boys, many times. Elementary school ages.

“They talk down to each other and then call the white kids racist,”
I would remain a mystery poster if I made racist statements like this, I appreciate the subtle racism and the Black kids you are obviously talking about can see the racism in you so it’s no doubt they react to your air toward them.
mystery poster also commented in further ignorance:
“These are all people who call themselves Christians.”
Actually inner-city kids are a mix of Muslim, atheist, and very few practicing Christians. Where they took the Bible out of school they soon started to cry about what it was replaced with, can’t have it both ways.
Oh yeah pagan I like your code “the type of children you mentioned.” got a hate for Black kids too huh? coded bigotry is something else, and its funny how one might think that there’s not a Black person around who could figure it out. I love the way you two connected.

Easy answer to your last rant, (“got a hate for Black kids too, huh?” cknuck) Absolutely not! Why would I? You assume so much when you write your distrust. I have had children of all colors be very unkind and cruel in my 20 plus years of teaching. That kind of behavior isn’t race specific…FYI. Get a grip, cknuck.
BTW, how would you be an expert on the children’s religion that the mystery poster was talking about? You were not in her classroom!
Good Night, cknuck. Have a good weekend.

Sorry Rant was from me.
I only had 15 kids in the class, two moved, of course neither of them behavior problems, 3 others were moved for various reasons to other classes. All three continue to have behavior problems in those classes as well. Out of the 10 i have now, 1 is great always, 3 more are great most of the time other than a couple of whiners, 1 is the class clown type which is more annoying than stressful, the last 5 are all trouble makers who parents are not doing anything about their behavior. All are girls, one told me that her mother said what I have to say is”Crap” That explains the child’s behavior perfectly. This one is a smart ass.
I saw a news note when I was surfing today about a 11 yr old elementary student getting tazered after hitting and officer at her school in the nose. Believe it or not people were faulting the cop whose nose was broken. Kid got a wake up call hopefully. Other wise the odds will continue to grow that she will end up in jail in the future.
I recognized I had no control with these kids, but the administration did nothing to help me. As I am only a 2nd year teacher I don’t know how I am expected to know what to do, when I have watched experienced teachers not get anywhere with this bunch.
Unfortunately, an Elementary degree leaves you prepared to do nothing but teach. Not sure what other job I can find, but right now I am very disillusioned about teaching.

“They talk down to each other and then call the white kids racist,”
That’s pretty race specific pagan and denial is not a river.

sinsonte,
Not everyone on those ships that sailed to the New World were passengers. It is documented that some of the crew on many of the ships were Islamic – they were often the source of celestial navigation information, if nothing else. As to Buddhists – the Chinese were here long before the Europeans. Also, many of the Asian immigrants who were “convinced” to come work in the New World – the West – were from all manner of religions in Asia. Buddhist Temples have been here for a long time. Perhaps not as long as synagogues, but for a long time. As to the the predecessors of WICCA, look to all the hexes on Pen. Dutch barns, at all the mountain folks fixes and cures, to the stories about powers in the hills, and the trees. The similarities between them and the Celtic / Druidic stories are not coincidental. Not all the settlers were willing, Protestant – or Roman Catholic – merchants and entrepreneurs. Many folks who came in the first few waves came with family religion that was not “orthodox”. Our history books do not necessarily cleanse the stories as much as they tell the story in broad, “coloring book” ways. The details and legends that have been part of many community’s history tell much more about the people who first settled in an area. The whole notion that we were a “Christian Nation” is simply the short (lazy) version of history. We started out as a wonderfully blended, collection of people with a crazy quilt of beliefs.

“Actually inner-city kids are a mix of Muslim, atheist, and very few practicing Christians.”
I’d like to think there are a bunch of young inner-city atheists but in fact those kids are mostly raised by people who would describe themselves as Christians and some who’d describe themselves as Muslims. Not more than ten or fifteen percent, I’d think, that would describe themselves as atheists. No, cknuck, those are largely Christian kids. There are Christians here who want to disavow inconvenient Christians, and that’s natural behavior, but it doesn’t make most of those kids other than Christians.
Oh, and if not “practicing” makes you non-Christian, does it also make you non-Muslim or even non-atheist?

Ruari, and pagansister you must have seen the beating of a black teacher by dark-skinned students recently on CNN or Netscape? She told them to stop fighting between themselves and listen to her. They turned on her and knocked her to the floor, girls, beating and kicking her. Other teachers heard the ruckus and came to her aid. The elementary Principal said it was the teachers fault, because she threatend to send them to the Principals office! Unbelievable. It was some city school in U.S. can’t remember which. We all have seen the girls beating up their fellow cheerleader because of petty issues, damaging her ear, eyes, and possibly her brain! Now they are being held as adults, and a trial is coming-up. The week after girls in middle-school started a brawl much like the H.S. girls did, but was stopped in time. I think all of this toughness of girls comes from their up-bringing by most, and some peers imitate them for acceptance and the feeling of being the controller. It doesn’t seem to matter if the children are any kind of religon, or race; they have picked up on all negative feelings, news, attitudes, and seem to want to show that I can be as tough as my mother, father, soapbox heros. I think our society has to change before we can expect these type of situations from continuing.

I agree, Henrietta22, (April 26, 2008 11:30 AM) with your statement – “I think our society has to change before we can expect these type of situations from continuing.” But how? How do we change things? As you said, “It doesn’t seem to matter if the children are any kind of religon, or race”. It is a behavioral problem, a relationship problem, interaction with other humans. It is a symptom of an “entitlement” mentality. Is this what’s become of American society? What changes must be made before we rid ourselves of this self centered dysfunction? For the current generation of adults it is probably too late. And unfortunately these adults are currently raising children and teaching these attitudes to them. But somewhere the cycle needs to stop and the concept of RESPECT for our fellow humans needs to become more common. The idea of SHAME for misconduct towards others must be felt. I understand there will always be those who are self-centered, anti-social and/or misanthropic. But the balance can change. We are social, empathetic and cooperative by nature. Entitlement is a learned behavior. We need to “unlearn” this destructive mentatily and soon.

mystery poster, at 1:07 AM, April 26
The quote you used: They talk to each other and then call the white kids racist.” FYI, that wasn’t the quote from my post…
Therefore the next sentence: “That’s pretty race specific, pagan and denial is not a river.” has to do with my post, how?
(“…not a river?? means?)

No, Henrietta, I didn’t see or hear about the students beating up a teacher, but I wish I was surprised to hear about it!
As I mentioned before and I’m sure everyone knows, there is no specific group of children that cause problems in classrooms…though some disagree and feel that folks think it is always blamed on one group. In my years of teaching, (25) the children did change in their respect and attitude in the classroom. I was fortunate that I only had to deal with a few who had problems, for whatever reason. I never taught above 5th grade…but spent most of my time in Kindergarden. Even then the characteristics of future problems began to show. Had one child that did nothing, nothing, she didn’t want to do. The principal was even disobeyed. She continually “tested” all the authority of all the adults in the school. (and that was in the Catholic school I last taught in). So religion doesn’t always contribute to success in school.

Henrietta I didn’t see the terrible event you described but it sounds like the problem was due to some things we could control if we only would.
Violence in the media. Some people love to rave about sex in the movies but violence over and over is more serious to our society.
Parents who coddle their kids. Teachers need to be authority figures and that doesn’t work so well when parents undermine that. A problem of course is when a teacher abuses that authority, as is bound to happen at times. They need to be dealt with severely when its proven.
Administrators who don’t back up their teachers. Could be overwork or a certain amount of cowardice or someone who doesn’t appreciate how important education is and just thinks of it as a way to make a living. Or someone who’s gotten burned out.
Then there’s the whole problem of respect for society. I understand Rush Limbaugh is calling for riots at the Democratic convention. He should be so far out on the fringe he falls off, but instead he’s an integral part of the Republican campaign machine. How do you have respect for society when someone like that is staggering around among the reins of power?

You’re right nnmns and FnN about the respect issue. The kids, esp. H.S. and Middle School see the two leading parties of the U.S. continually being adult bullies with each other on the net, in the evening news, etc. They think this is fun and the attitude to have with each other, after all adults do it.
I thought of one of the parents of the girls that beat their fellow cheerleader, when the police called her about her daughter’s act, and started to question her, the mother cussed the officer out over the phone! Nancy Grace had the recording with lots of bleeps, and then said wonder where her daughter learned her actions from! This happens I would assume more than we’d like to believe.
Entitlement is very present in our society FnN, you’re right. Just watch Dr. Phil’s show and this behavior is shown in so many ways; my religion is better than yours, my family has more money so I’m special and you’re not, my home is large and your’s is small, and on and on.

jestrfry,
Thanks for your post, but I thought you had info on the writers of the Dec. of Ind and/or Constitution who were Moslem, Buddhist, etc.
Back to the little girl…
I don’t think she suffered any harm and her parents took advantage of her to make a point. Atheist parents have a right to protect their children and their beliefs, but how is this situation better served by appealing to the courts than by the parents going to the the school administrators and voicing their concerns?

H22 you must have seen the White girls on TV beating up another white girl and video taping it.
nnmns you are wrong although most of the older population of the inner city that are Black are Christian by preference the kids are not and many are not believers of God. The thing about Christians you might not understand is that even if they do behave poorly we Christians would embrace them and not deny them.
As a Black man in the inner city more often then not I happen to know that many are Muslim and many have no preference fewer are practicing Christian. Now you can claim to know more about my people than I do (a quality several of you guys share) but I am there and know families personally. And by the way I actually care, it’s not lip service I go and do.

Don’t these kids have enough in their backpacks? Do we have to burden them with the adults battles over texts thousands of years old?

cknuck I hope you are right about inner city kids casting off their parents’ religions. Have you done real surveys to determine how many of them have more important things to do than wonder about a big dude in the sky and how many actively think there isn’t one?
Do you think Muslim parents are passing on their beliefs better than Christian parents? If so, why do you suppose that is?
I’ve heard and seen mixed reports on Christians embracing people they think behave poorly.
And did you see Bill Moyers’ interview with Rev. Wright, and if so what did you think of him?

cknuck: “H22 you must have seen the White girls on TV beating up another white girl and video taping it?”
You certainly proved a point I was trying to make earlier,(April 26, 2:38 PM) cknuck, with the above quote meant for Henrietta. Thanks. Problems in behavior are NOT just in one group of children…white, black purple or green or any other color. So when it happens that a group of black children are causing problems, and that is mentioned, it doesn’t mean it is mentioned BECAUSE they happen to be black.
As to the religion or lack of it with the kids in public schools, inner city or out in the “burbs”who cares? No matter what they are, No Bibles or other religious materials should be there…unless it is a school run by the religion itself.

Boy oh boy pagan, yes I did certainly prove a point, not the one you sited: I don’t normally say statements like “H22 you must have seen the White girls on…” but when spurred by other racial comments about Black kids one sometimes feel as though they must respond, so I felt if I illustrated it you could learn that (I guess it didn’t work). That is how racial strife is created and I know if you, pagan, are in front of a group of Black kids’ everyday trying to teach they know and/or feel how you truly feel and think about them and about being there and having to communicate with them. So that when they see through your phoniness and don’t respond the way you think they should you have to take some of the blame.
Prayer should be in schools because when you pray together it’s a lot harder to fight against a person you just prayed with. If Bibles replaced guns I would be all for it. It’s obvious that you don’t know the solution to what’s happpening in schools so let someone else give it a try.

cknuck:
Ya know, I’m so not surprised by the way you turn around what I say and try to make it seem like I have a prejudice against children other than White. Thus I will stop trying to tell you that everything you think is wrong and that’s fine…not my problem. The children did know how I felt about them….and the hugs I got and returned proved it to me everyday…there were Black kids, Chinese kids, Hispanic kids, and White kids…over the years. Sorry, not what you wanted to hear. But then, that’s life. Your brick, not mine.
As to prayed in school? The RCC school I taught in certainly had prayer…and guess what? The kids acted just the same, some with problems and some without…of all “colors”.
And I guess you do know the solution (which isn’t the Bible) to what’s happening in the schools so you certainly can solve it. We people who have been there don’t, I’m sure.
BTW, what was I supposed to “learn” with your example statement? Must be a slow learner.

The problems discussed in the many previous post are (IMO) a combination of social-economical based as well as a result of unfortunate parenting skills.
The only relationship to race is that there are in some areas more minorities that are at a disadvantage economically.
Peace!

Would people get upset if someone were handing out the Quran? How about the Upanishads? Why not the Egyptian Book of the Dead? These are all scripture too. Just because one faith is dominant does not give it license to be domineering.

I was looking at a movie about early U.S. and they prayed to Jesus, it was very historical, that is American history; the funny thing about it they did have a Quran, or the Upanishads, nor the Egyptian Book of the Dead, they had the Bible. Realistically be for real the Bible play a huge part in American history and try as you might that’s not going away. One just cannot change history no matter what dislike they might have for it its here to stay and so is the Bible. Your rally against the Bible just does not make sense.

sorry that is “they did not have a Quran.’

cknuck: “I was looking at a movie about early U.S. and they prayed to Jesus”
No doubt some did, and some didn’t. As for Muslims, I expect they didn’t make it into your movie but I imagine some were around. Certainly some of our founders were not Christians, certainly not in your sense of the religion.
I’ve seen claims of anti-Semitism used here to denigrate other peoples’ opposition to Israeli policies and I see you using claims of bias against African Americans to denigrate other peoples’ religious views. I guess that kind of thing is SOP but it doesn’t advance an objective discussion.

cknuck-
Yes, I will agree that the Bible played a different part in the past than it does today in our country. And, for me that is fine. I think we can learn much from: our ancestors, the founders of our great nation, and, religious leaders of the past. That said, I have no intentions of leading my life to please the those people. Even if I did have an interest, it is not possible….they are all dead and gone.
The interesting thing about waxing nostalgically of the past…is that when we do so, most of us only focus on the things that seem to be positive. I have no desire to turn the clock back. For if we went back to the things we romantically fantasize about….we would also have to go back to the other practices of the time. I am not a fan of segregation and discrimination…whether against blacks, Jews, Irish, Italians, Mexican, women, or others.
I have no interest in living without computers, the internet, efficient refrigerators, cell phones, color tv, hundreds of cable channels, nor the strides we have made towards real equality for all people in the USA.
I very much enjoy easily being able to read different versions of the Bible, Qur’an, Book of the Dead, etc. I believe there is something to be gained from every book, every experience, every person with whom we engage. I have benefited greatly from my on line interactions with all the regular posters here….including you! Your posts often challenge me to reexamine my beliefs, opinions, etc.
Peace!

ck wrote: “I was looking at a movie about early U.S. and they prayed to Jesus, it was very historical, that is American history”
I wonder what the movie was. Films are not usually the best place to get objective information. They are very subjective by definition. Nonetheless, in reference to your point, as well as sinsonte’s…
First, the nation began well before 1781 and the establishemnt of the Constitution. I was not surprised to see a Quran on Jefferson’s bookshelf. I expect many of the other leaders were aware of some of the other scriptures, though perhaps not well versed in it. Of course, if you know your Bible, you know your Torah. We are and have been since the first colonies an amalgam, a gumbo, a swirl of people from many backgrounds. Even the the first colonists at Pilgrim Rock were not all Protestant “Pilgrims”. The Dutch (very liberal Protestants) were here before them. The Jamestown colonists were entrepreneurs and explorers – with only the barest religious interests. They were preceded by the Chinese. The first Europeans were Vikings – not Christians. The first Europeans (in St. Augistine, FL) were Roman Catholic, not Protestants. The first synogogue predates almost every church in the country. Some of the influences on the design of our national strucutre comes from the Iriquois Confederacy. It is not all that useful to rely only on our elementary school history lessons; there is so much more to the story. To insist that there was only one group and one path is to deny the wide variety of people and the influences they had.

nnmns you amaze me with your side of accounts and the authority in which you blame people. Of course to you I would use race and then its easy to mute the point. You on the other hand dismiss all your attacks of conservative passer byers who leave with your teethmarks in their necks.
JohnQ; perspective, I’m not denying most of the stuff that you are saying, but as I said in my post one cannot deny the Bible and its presence in our history. Also you underestimate if you think I look at our history with rose color glasses, I probably have more reason to see the shortcomings of America than anyone here (I won’t argue about that point either) but I know the shortcomings as well as the wonders. Of all of the literature the Bible has a special place in the history of America and although many people rush to erase that they would have to erase history to achieve their end.
jest, your energy you spend to amass the tremendous paragraph in which you attempted to write out the protestants has nothing to do with the history of the Bible in the US, nor the impact of the protestants who help build and govern this country. You trotted out a lot of trivia to what end? No one is denying religious freedom just preventing you from denying the Bible.

Even the “ancestors” had multiple religions, so this country wasn’t and isn’t a “Christian” nation…fortunately. Our differences make this country what it is.
Unfortunately the last 7 1/2 years of trying to reinvent it as a “Christian” nation, led by the Alpha Christian, has been disasterous.

‘Nonymous,
I did not try to write the Protestants out of the picture. I simply was including the other folks who were too inconvenient for some authors to include. Certainly they were a driving force in much of the settlement and frontier development of the country. But they were not alone.

I’ve always believed kids should be allowed to bring their own bibles to school if they want. However, there is no reason for this school to allow a group to be handing out bibles to kids, as that is a blatant endorsement of a specific religion. The law is crystal clear on these matters – the only way I can see this verdict being overturned is if they get a highly incompetent or corrupt judge the second time around.
Difficult as it is, I’m going to try my best to resist commenting on cknuck’s posts. Everyone else has already addressed the important points, and I doubt repeating them will help things sink in any better.

Sometimes the obvious questions accur too late – but here is one to consider…
Why didn’t the school district simply give out dictionaries or even Thesaurs (-es? ae? plural someone?). Even rhyming dictionaries would have been more useful and less controversial. Clearly they were making a particular point from a specific perspective.

Windsor’s Child,
“This makes me want to walk down the halls of the nearest public school with my Bible clearly visible in my hand. Is this not a free country?”
I hate to burst your bubble, but NO, America is NOT a “free country”. If you are to be “free” to walk down the halls of the nearest public school with your Bible in hand, then YOU must equally allow kids to walk down the same hallways carrying a copy of the Q’uran. Or the Torah. Or “Mein Kampf”. I don’t think you would allow that kind of freedom to others, so I can’t understand why you insist that freedom be allowed to you. America promises freedom of (and presumably FROM) religion. Yours does not trump the religion(s) of others.
“While I would have a problem, I suppose, having a school board hand out Bibles, I have no problem with the Gideon organization doing that.”
Ah, but the parents of NON-Christian kids might have a problem with it.
“They have been doing that for decades. It is what they do.”
But they SHOULDN’T have been doing it – that’s the point. America is not a Christian theocracy, and her schools are secular entities.
“I’m sorry if you don’t like it, folks, but my faith goes wherever I go. I do not turn my Christian faith off and on to please others. I am a Christian anywhere and everywhere at all times.”
But you seem to be insisting on a ‘Christian-ONLY’ policy. I’m pretty sure Jewish students likewise do not “turn offf’ THEIR faith to plese YOU. Ditto for Muslim students. And Hindu students. And Buddhist students. And why should they?
“do not make the mistake of thinking the people who would harass this girl for not taking a Bible are Christians. They are children who have been brought up in a faithless world”
Balderdsh! These are Christian students raised by Christian parents.
“and they, like their parents, only desire to use a religious situation to promote their own agenda of ridicule. They don’t really need the refusal of a Bible to trigger this activity. They are simply bullies who will take any advantage they can to cut down some one else to make themselves feel less inadequate. That is not Christianity.”
Agreed, but they’re Christian bullies, Christians being in the majority, and they’re bullying becuse the minority students refuse to bend to their will and take a copy of the CHRISTIAN Bible.
Get it yet?