I think Sen. Grassley may have some valid concerns but his approach seems a little big brotherish and did not serve to win him any level headed supporters. I also think that Ken Copeland’s response is the honorable way to handle the situation. But I must admit I am glad that Grassley shook things up for these guys.

It sounds like what KC wants to do is evasive.

cknuck-
Sen Grassley’s committee has investigated a number of companies and organizations. Currently, he has also asked the pharmaceutical firm Merck to provide an explanation into their payment practices of physicians as consultants.
Copeland’s response is not an honorable way….it is an evasive way to handle it.
Is Grassley’s investigation of the six ministries really that different from Congresses investigation of illegal drug use by sports celebrities?
Peace!

The IRS enforces existing law….Congress evaluates the adequacy of existing law. Each does something different. Grassley wants to evaluate the adequacy of existing law. To refuse this shows a fear that Congress may find out that something they are doing may be wrong. What else? If you’re on the up and up what’s to be concerned about?

Like a prestidigitator, never watch where he wants you to look, look at what is happening with the other hand! Presto, Chango! Abra-Ca-Dabra! Bibbidi-bobbidi-BOO!

Actually JohnQ, you really can’t have it both ways separation of church and state until a homosexual issue comes up or a nosey senator Grassley want to bully a curious look see. Only the IRS has any right here to demand not every nosey person who has a bug. I’m not a fan of Copeland but I am a supporter of his rights and in this case he is taking a high road. Grassley may be on a witch hunt, but he still must stay within the law. It’s funny when it comes to a personal dislike how people are so ready to circumvent the law, and other’s rights. Suppose I wanted to look at your books anytime I had a whim how would you feel? And if you ever worked for any nonprofit you could appreciate the privacy of donors, but of course your desire to make a strike at these guys outweight your respect of the law. There is a process and lone rangers are no longer it.

cknuck-
Truth be known, I am not a fan of the Copelands either. However, I completely support Copeland’s right to preach whatever theology he embraces. And, I have no problem with whatever huge sums of money that donors wish to donate to his ministries even if I do not support his actual theology. However, I do not support anyone’s use of money that breaks tax laws and/or circumvents tax laws.
Senator Grassley is not just nosey and/or a bully. He is a US Senator serving on the Senate Finance Committee and, under the Constitution of the USA has a right to investigate Kenneth Copeland Ministries, TEC, UMC, RCC, and/or any other religious organization’s finances as they relate to taxes.
No offense to you cknuck but, as far as I know you are not a US Senator, State, Municipal, Judicial, nor IRS official.
And, as far as I am aware, this issue has nothing to do with homosexuality.
As far as your point on separation of church and state…I have never advocated that our Fed, State, nor Muni government make laws regarding equal-rights for lgbt people that apply to bona fide religious organizations.
Peace!

Clearly Sen. Grassley will obey the law. He cannot get those records if Copeland doesn’t want to give them and it’s illegal. This is not a situation like George Bush getting the AG to reinterpret the laws and secretly enforcing them on people the he’s removed from the world’s view.

It is the fact that Grassley is not following the normal protocol for this type of investigation. The IRS is the agency that handles these types of situation. That is what they were created to do, and that is how the majority of other private organizations would be handled. Here is a good article to get you thinking…
http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/kenneth-copelands-jet/

Just because someone says they have the power to get nosy, doesn’t mean they actually have the right to do so. History is filled with innocents who have spoken up and told the truth, only to be crushed under the wheel. There are constitutional protections at risk here, and whether or not I agree with Rev. Copeland’s theology OR actions, he (like the rest of us) has the right to those protections. There is something that doesn’t feel right here, like why would Senator Grassley’s investigation need to know 40 years of people who spoke or performed music? Would that mean they were next in line for investigation? And why? We had a problem with this once before–it was called Senator McCarthy, and he destroyed many, many innocent lives because of the fear he engendered. As my favorite president, Harry Truman said at the time, “It is not the American way to slur the loyalty and besmirch the character of the innocent and the guilty alike. We have always considered it just as important to protect the innocent as it is to punish the guilty.” Surely, if someone had something to hide, he would not request an IRS audit! Would you?

Ok, So Grassley as a senator may have a legal right to investifgate. What is of real concern is that all 6 of those whom he is investigating, subscribe to the same doctrine. He is not investigation anyone in his doctrine (despite the fact that they run Universities complete with airplanes for their teams and live lavish lifestyles as well).
That is what stinks about this. The power to tax is the power to destroy. When that power is aimed at a specific group, it looks fishy.

HST, I have at least as much contempt for McCarthy and HUAC and such as you do but this is a case of a few senators investigating people who, if they were mistreated, could generate more political power behind them than just about anyone else in the country. They are not being railroaded and won’t be. McCarthy used the anti-Communist hysteria and generated a LOT of fear (much like terrorism is being used by Republicans now) to take away rights we should not be giving away.
Grassley, etc. are not in that situation at all and could not begin to carry that off.
So let’s get some perspective here, people.

I have a correction in my first comment…seems SEnator Grassley has asked for the names of all speakers and musicians since 2004, not for 40 years…. Having said that, it still seems odd that that would be something he needed to know. Why????

If something smells a little fishy, maybe it is? And if it didn’t smell fishy why spend time better spent elsewhere investigating.

harry.truman-
Well, I guess it is possible to move money around by grossly over-paying speaker/musician and then having that person “kick-back” some of it. Or, it is possible to pay a speaker/musician a sum of money….however, in your records record it as much, much, much more and then use the difference for some other personal use. Sort of like the reason expense accounts usually need to be approved by someone higher in an organization.
Or, there may be other reasons.
Sabir-
These six are certainly not the only “prosperity ministries”. So, your suggestion that he is investigating them because of their doctrine might miss the mark. If I remember correctly, there were originally complaints made about these six by some other organization that provided Sen Grassley’s committee with some info.
nnmns-
I think Senate Committees have the ability to issue subpoenas. So, eventually he can get the info or the Ministry and the leadership of the ministry can be held in contempt.
Peace!

The other organizations may provide Grassley with more than information. I personally would like to investagate senators and thier pay grades and raises.
Thanks for the correction JohnQ I stand corrected but I still say the good senator may be just on the attack and throwing his weight around for some kind of personal satifaction or gain.

dreamer-
Do you have something to back up your assertion that Sen Grassley is not following normal protocol? And, if he is not…so what as long as he acts within his authority?
BTW, the Blog you linked has a gross error and a wild misrepresentation in the first paragraph…so, I find it difficult to take it seriously. Sen Grassley has not requested the name of every musician for the last forty years and, the he did not state that: “…insists that true Christians should ride donkey’s…” that is out of context.
I could post a link to a story about pigs flying and that would get you thinking…however, it would not be any more relative to this article than your link was. Unless, your intent was to make a case of how Sen Grassley’s actions are being misrepresented.
cknuck-
I wondered if the Sen was biased when the first article came out months ago. His colleagues in the senate did not seem to think he is biased. BTW, he has also lead investigations into the FBI, IRS, FDA, General Services Admin, and other gov agencies.
It has been suggested that part if the reason for his investigation is that 3 of the 6 ministers were on the board of Oral Roberts University and all 6 had some sort of ties to the University. I am not certain that this is part of the reason…but, it sounds plausible.
Peace!

Grassley at no time is questioning theology or even ecclesiology. His questions focus on taxes – reporting accurately and truthfully, and the application of tax exemptions to organizations that violate the letter and intent of the code. Just because he is calling a “Christian” to accountability does not make him wrong.
In fact, I still do not trust Copeland. I still think that while he is blessing someone with one hand, the other hand is picking their pocket (unreported earnings – that’s a no no). He is too slick and too quick to “pass the plate”.

“In fact, I still do not trust Copeland. I still think that while he is blessing someone with one hand, the other hand is picking their pocket (unreported earnings – that’s a no no). He is too slick and too quick to “pass the plate”.”
Amen Brother!
Brother Copeland has that down-home, simple-man (not simpleton…but simple as in humble)act so well rehearsed that he no longer comes across as the humble guy next door…but rather as the stereotypical fly-by-night used car salesman.
He does a good job of keeping it all in the family.
Note, I have nothing against honest,/b> used car salespeople.
Peace!

Copeland does have the right to stand up for what he believes are his rights. There is nothing wrong with that part of this story. True, there may be some parts of his ministry that need to be looked into. However, that type of investigation should be conducted the way that the law has laid out. Another good read…
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13003

blusky than you for the sanity I can see how vigilantism is frowned upon . I suspect Copeland of using a charismatic approach to play on emotions of folk but I have little proof so I reserve my comments to what I know. I do think that he is doing the right thing but rejecting the bulling tactics a Grassley and at the same time submitting to the authority of the IRS voluntarily. It seems that others here what him in the area so they can let out the lions Sad. If the IRS finds no fault then Grassley should step down but if they do find false then it’s up to the IRS to respond in the appropriate manner.

You are right cknuck – they should respond appropriately if trouble is indeed found. Whether we trust him or not, he is standing up for what he believes is right and he seems to have fairly firm ground to stand on. Read this recently…
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/60222

It’s good to see that other Christian leaders have recognized how the outcomes of this situation could affect the future and gotten behind Copeland. His call for an IRS investigation is what Grassley should have requested from the beginning.

Copeland needed the support of other leaders, and I am glad to see that they have stepped up behind him. Across denominational lines, they have come together because they do realized how this could affect the future. This is a precedent that does NOT need to be set.