There are a lot of other books of fiction in that list, too.

MArk Twain once wrote that a classic is a book everyone has but few people read. Of the list of 10 I suspect that only 2,3,4,5,6 and 8 are read by choice. The others are usually assigned – and the Sparks or Cliff notes are the actual volume of choice. So it goes!

Is there a non-fiction category?

The poll didn’t ask me and the Bible wouldn’t even have been in my top 10, or even my top 100. However it does have some adventure stories (Moses & mountains, escapes from captives, wars etc.) floods, plagues, love and sex, murder, prostitutes,idol worshipers and even magic and more….but so do a lot of books.

You are right pagansister about what the Bible has in it! But it also has the greatest love story ever known to man and the best counseling book on how to get along with everyone. The first section describes God trying to get the attention of a certain race of people so that they would live at least as long as it took for Him to reveal His great love to the world. God loves even those who refuse to believe he exist and even those that take a peek once in while to make sure they really haven’t missed something, like pagensister!
When I think about God loving me, now that I have a hard time believing, others yup, but me with all my faults……..But as I look back on my life, I see His hand watching over me, and making bad things good, just like He has promised to do. (And that’s in the Bible.)

truth seeker:
I’m glad that you are happy with your beliefs. I respect that. I have 2 sisters that are devout Christians, but after 17 years of being raised in a Methodist household, attending church, Bible school, Sunday school etc., with very loving parents, I still had a lot of doubts. That has never changed. I’m a very concrete person. I like proof. None exists as far as I’m concerned. Was happy for a foundation in a religion, but married a life long UU and raised my children in a UU church. Never regreted my decision to not be a Christian, and not telling my children about a god I don’t believe in. They were introduced to their grandparent’s (my parents) way of believing, as they were growing up, but neither went for it.
I’ll give you that there are some intersting stories in the book, and the Psalms are pretty, and the King James version sounds better read aloud than the new, versions, written to make them easier to understand. But it is, IMO, fiction, written to push an agenda. Too many rewrites and translations. Even now the language is being changed so that folks can supposedly understand it better. Every time someone rewrites, it gets changed. How can it be accurate or true?

The Bible isn’t fiction. Fiction is a literary genre, and the Bible, whether true of false, doesn’t fit that genre. The Bible is a collection of writings from numerous genres.

“The Bible isn’t fiction”
O.K…. talking snakes, swirling swords, people living to 900, all the fauna of the planet fitting into a small boat, world-wide flood, talking donkeys, women being turned into pillars of salt, talking donkeys, burnig bushes, 10 plagues, seas being split,
pillars of fire, pillars of smoke, walls tumbling down, virgin birhts, magical stars, walking on water, water into wine, not really dying, and did I mention the talking snake? Not exactly a science text.

Is there a non-fiction category?
________________________________________
Yes, and the Bible is not only the leading “NON-FICTION” book of all time, it is the divinely-inspired Word of God, and everything historically within it DID happen, and that which is prophecied WILL happen . . .
One day every knee will bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord, as the Bible says . . . That includes all the bloggers here who are mocking the Bible . . .

This story is almost useless to post. Without knowing how the sample was collected, you can make no valid inferenes. It’d hardly be surprising if a website like this one did that poll and got the result, write a story about when you do the poll on http://www.atheists.org and duplicate your findings. I find it incredibly difficult to accept that, while simultaneously being told how ignorant Americans are of the Bible, most of them hold it as their favorite book. Either someone has a bad survey, or Americans are so superficial and vacuous that their opinion on anything is hardly worth considering; but, then again, they did elect Bush twice, and vote Michael Johns off American Idol (yes, i’m bitter) so the latter is probably more likely.
BTW, I prefer 7.

“the Bible is not only the leading “NON-FICTION” book of all time, it is the divinely-inspired Word of God, and everything historically within it DID happen, and that which is prophecied WILL happen . . .”
Wow, you’ve really drunk the Koolaid. If sinsonte hadn’t so clearly put the lie to what you just said I’d have to do a little research. As it is I’ll just present the very first part of a list I found of some of the inconsistencies in the Bible:
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn’t created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
etc. etc. etc.
Your divinely inspired Bible sure could have used some editing and fact checking, divine or otherwise.

To all you unbelievers out there, I was there too, but instead of throwing out God, I asked Him to reveal Himself to me. I did not want to be wrong I guess without making some kind of effort. I knew my Dad’s lack of belief caused many problems for all of us born to him, so had to find something bigger than my Dad of me to live my life for. I commend pagensister for attending a church for so long, but I am so sorry that she couldn’t see God! I will continue to pray for you and others that have a very hard time seeing Him. I am so sorry we Christians aren’t a better example of Christ for you to see Him in us too. Keep looking though, He longs for your company and He loves you!
I have had a few miracles in my life and when I pray I can sometimes feel His presence and sometimes He answers my prayers like I asked, but most of the time He says that’s not the best way to solve this problem. I will pray that God will reveal Himself to you as this is the best gift in the whole world. And I have been to many countries in this world. My husband told me today that this world we live in is purgatory, and sometimes for many of us it can be. God shine His face on you and give you peace.

Sinsonte,
I never said it was a science text. I said it wasn’t fiction. Fiction and science textbooks aren’t the only two genres of literature out there, believe it or not.

The level of prejudice displayed here by what seem like otherwise thinking people is unbelievable.
As one who has not only read but studied the Bible for more than 50 years, on my own, with no one requiring me to do so, I have to comment that it always astounds me how people are ready to condemn a book they have not read, or at least have not read objectively. The Bible is a very complex book, yet its message is a very simple one. The Bible is not a science book, yet it does comment on nature. The Bible is not a work of fiction, but it does contain some stories that the Bible itself indicates are stories told to make a point.
I have studied both the King James Version and the modern versions and I find no significant difference in meaning between the versions. The modern texts are easier to read because they use the English of today rather than the English of 1611, a significant help in understanding.
I am fully convinced by faith that the Bible is what it claims to be, the revealed Word of God. I don’t expect others to believe that, although I am certain they would be better off if they did. The simple message of the Bible is that God created us, we rebelled against Him (that was no surprise to Him), He tried different ways to reach us that failed (that also was no surprise to Him), and finally He revealed His only plan to save us from ourselves and our rebellion against Him. That was the cross. God loved us and provided His Son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins. I believe that. You may not. And that’s OK. At least for now. However I am pretty certain you’re not going to like what happens to you after you die if you don’t believe.
Science is great, but it doesn’t answer the real issues of life. It can tell me about gravity, about electricity, about how to grow food and save the planet (maybe) from destruction. But it can’t tell me how to deal with hatred, frustrations, bitterness, failure and the darkness that lurks in every human heart. God identified these things in His Word and He told us, not what we can do about them, but what He has already done about them. All He wants us to do is trust Him. Which I do. Implicitly.
The Bible remains the most popular book at least in part because it has changed so many lives for the better. It speaks of controling the tongue instead of using it as a weapon against others. It speaks of building strong marriages and families instead of the “anything goes” attitudes we find today. It speaks of loving and serving others instead of expecting others to love and serve me. It speaks of respecting the rights of others instead of thinking only of my own. It speaks of giving, not taking, of loving, not hating, of peace, not strife, of gentleness, not violence. Even if the miraculous elements cited in posts here did not happen (and I believe fully they did because nothing is impossible for my God), but even if they were fiction you would still have a book that encourages people to do the right things and live for others instead of self.
I think it’s a great Book, and when you have spent as many hours studying it as I and others have, then I might be ready to listen to your criticisms.

nnmns what you fail to realize is that the Bible needs no defense it speaks to those who invite God to speak to them and to those like you it will always remain a mystery, a object of offense, and the best part it will survive you. bye bye

WC describes the Bible poetically and makes it sound much better than the result of all these centuries of “Christianity” would suggest. cknuck makes silly claims. Neither defends their Bible against the tip of the iceberg of contradictions and inconsistencies and just plain silliness it contains. I presume that’s because they can’t.

Actually, nnmns, you are wrong. There is a whole body of study concerning the so-called contradictions in the Bible. It is called Apologetics. And no, that doesn’t mean we are making apologies for what you think is the “silliness” of the Bible. It is a serious study of why there might be apparent discrepencies. I have taken classes in Apologetics and have several books on the topic in my library.
I do not go into all the detail because I can’t, as you suggest, but because you still would not concede that the Bible has value because of your persistent prejudice against the Book, its God and His people.
I did not defend the Bible “poetically” as you suggest. I made a very important point which is that the Bible has helped thousands and thousands of people to live a better life than they would have otherwise. No other book in the world can make that claim. That’s not poetry. That is the actual truth.
By the way, nnmns, and others, I would be interested to know just how much time you have spent actually studying the Bible and not just writing it off because of your prejudices. As I said before, even if the inconsistencies you claim are there really were there, and I do not believe they are, you would still have a book that encourages people to live a much better life than most people do live.
Before you condemn such a book, you really should read it and perhaps a good book on Christian Apologetics while you’re at it. You might find there really are explanations that make sense. But you would have to put your prejudice aside, and I’m not certain you are able – or perhaps willing – to do that.

TRUTHSEEKER:
Thanks for your concern, but I’m fine. I have had great examples of Christianity from my 2 sisters, my parents, and others. It just isn’t for me. One sister worries she won’t see me in heaven, the other accepts my spiritual side the way it is. We love each other and nothing will change that. My parents are dead now, afer 60 years of marriage. They were excellent examples of Christian love.
nnmns:
Isn’t it interesting how many contradictions there are in the Bible? I too have looked up many, and it is fascinating.

Pagansister and nnmns I think I mentioned this book a few yrs. ago on Beliefnet. It’s called The Good Book, by Peter J. Gomes, Preacher to Harvard University. It’s called Reading The Bible With Mind And Heart. Very interesting and one nnmns you would possibly enjoy.

Mark V.:
“…divinely inspired Word of God and everything historically within it DID happen and that which is prophecied WILL happen. Ond day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord , as the Bible says.” And you expect that to include the “mocking bloggers”.
As a “mocking blogger”, I hate to burst your bubble, but “it ain’t goin’ to happen”….There is no way I’m doing any bowing to something I can’t see and even if I could see…I’m an American and don’t have to bow to anyone …divine or not. 2nd, you have totally believed the myth that the Bible stories are true and apparently word for word and it can even tell the future. Predicting the future? Good trick.
Enjoy.

Saying that the Bible is your favorite book because from it stems your religious beliefs and vindications for your prejudices is not the same as saying you like a book because of its plot, character, or language.
Reading the Bible as an act of worship, to try to discern the wishes of mecurial Yahweh, to try to find that one passage that will win an agrument, or to try to find some venom to pour forth upon your enemy, is not the same as reading for pleasure, as reading to experience another world or time, as finding joy in losing oneself in the words, sentencces and phrasing of a great artist (Yes, yes. God is the greatest artist. Allow me to head y’all off at the pass.) No one reads the Bible as they would Hamlet, or Moby Dick, or Portnoy’s Complaint. Imagine if they did: “Loved the beginning; choppy in places. The sex and violience were gratuitous. The women were poorly fleshed-out. The ending needed work.”

Those of you defending the Bible (sort of), you are right: I’m not impressed. If it were an” inspired” book it’s silly to think there’d be a need for volumes upon volumes of professional explanations for why it doesn’t even make sense about the small stuff.
As far as the claim it’s led lots of people to better lives, perhaps it has but it’s also led people to bad lives and to very bad decisions.
But as long as people are made aware there are all sorts of errors in the Bible they can make their own decisions.
And if you think I have to read the Bible to dislike it, have you read the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf? Didn’t think so.

“No one reads the Bible as they would Hamlet etc. Imagine if they did: Loved the beginning; choppy in places. The sex and violence were gratuitous. The women were poorly fleshed out. The ending needed work.”
That was very well “reviewed”, Mystery Poster.

Thanks WC for writing what I couldn’t. Great job.

I had one girl tell me why the Bible is not so great. She informed me that there are no cats in the Bible, so it cannot be great. So there you have it. No cats, no possibility of greatness. (And at least she took the time to read it enough to know there are no cats).
I often like to survey books stores nont only for particular volumes, but for how they set up their shelves. By and large, the book stores I choose to visit the most put philosophy, religion, and humor together. They are neither fiction nor non-fiction. Together they are wisdom. There was one bookstore I liked that put auto mechanics with religion. The owner gave no reason why except he thought it made sense to him.

jest -
Back in the Seventies, I had a philosophy professor at Iowa who was teaching a class on the Philosophy of Religion the semester after I graduated.
He was going to use as his only text, Pirsig’s Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence.

I think it’s far more plausible that the bible is full of the writings of ordinary folk trying to make sense of the mysteries of life.
And in the end, it doesn’t explain the mysteries but does show that people were trying to learn how to be better to one another.
It’s flawed because the writers are flawed.
It’s good because it is written in earnest by men such as ourselves.
It is what it is.
And there are others like it all around the world.

“And if you think I have to read the Bible to dislike it, have you read the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf? Didn’t think so.”
Actually, I have. (I’ve also read “The Da Vinci Code” and “Atlas Shrugged”, along with most of the other books on the list.) I think that if you’re going to critique something publicly, you really ought to know what you’re talking about. Otherwise you’re like a child who says they don’t like a particular vegetable that they’ve never even tried. That’s not insightful criticism, it’s merely catering to your personal prejudices.
“Those of you defending the Bible (sort of), you are right: I’m not impressed. If it were an” inspired” book it’s silly to think there’d be a need for volumes upon volumes of professional explanations for why it doesn’t even make sense about the small stuff.”
If you honestly want to understand a work of literature (including the Bible, “Mein Kampf”, the “Communist Manifesto”, or Shakespeare for that matter), you need to know something about the cultural and historical circumstances within which it was written. For a translated work, you probably need some insight into the original language as well. That’s why “volumes of professional explanations” get written about them. It’s called “scholarship”, and most people regard it as a good thing.
Of course, none of that is necessary if you just want to pat yourself on the back for being so enlightened and superior to others. But you’ll have to excuse me if I’m not impressed by those who criticize the Bible based on ignorance rather than knowledge and experience. When you do that, you’re no different than fundamentalist Christians who criticize other works on the list without first having done the work to understand them. Prejudice is prejudice, regardless of where it comes from.

Deacon Scott,
I have read “Zen & the Art of MC Maintenance”. It is a good and interesting book. I have also enjoyed Zen and the Art of Archery and even the Tao of War. All good and informative. Two of my current favorites are “Plato & the Platypus” and “Ariostotle & the Aardvark”. Excellent and amusing books.
I do count the Bible as a great book BECAUSE of its flaws. It shows how humans receive revelation and even though they mash it up, it is still as critical to their lives as bsic nourishment, rest, and socialization.
I guess I just find these lists a ittle silly.

Well BrJr I don’t want to understand the Bible as a work of literature. I have no objection to those who do but I have other interests.
But I’m not talking about the Bible as a work of literature; I’m talking about it as a source of morality and, as some believe, an inerrant source of morality. As inerrant it’s off the bottom of the scale so I fail to see how anyone could believe that except that they were brainwashed as children to do so or perhaps friends and relatives would make their lives hell if they didn’t.
As an errant source of morality, sure, but you could use any large book that way. You have to pick out the moral parts and leave out the immoral parts.
If it actually happened (iiah), was it moral that Abraham prostituted his wife to the Pharaoh? Iiah, was it moral that Lot sent his virgin daughters out to be raped? Moving to the NT, iiah was it moral that “God” sent (the holy ghost in Matthew, the angel Gabriel in Luke (!)) to a virgin who was betrothed to a man to impregnate her? Could “God” have not found a willing, un-betrothed woman? Or maybe the story wouldn’t sell so well if Jesus were more obviously an illegitimate child.
And finally what about Jesus telling the crowd at the Pharaoh’s when the “sinner” poured sweet-smelling ointment on his head (Matthew version) that such lavish treatment of him rather than selling it to help the poor was ok “Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.” Iiah was that moral?
Kind of sets up Christian churches for getting gifts that might have otherwise gone to the poor, don’t you think? In any case it excuses people who lavishly spend money on themselves rather than help others.
But back to the point at hand, the main characters of the Bible were guilty of immorality at times, that immorality not being punished, so how are we to use the Bible as a source of morality?
And I haven’t even touched on its use as an excuse for slavery or bigotry against homosexuals.

I wonder if people say the Bible is their favorite book because they thinks it makes them sound like a good person or a good Christian — sort of the way candidate George Bush was asked what political philosopher had the most influence on him, and he ansewered, “Jesus Christ.” And, as I said above, no one reads the Bible the way they do other literature. I’ve never heard anyone say, “Boy, I picked up the ‘Book of Zephaniah’ last night and just couldn’t put it down!” or, ” ‘The Epistle of Philemon’ — what a page turner!”

I’m sorry, nnmns, but I know of no place in the Bible that records Jesus “telling the crowd at the Pharaoh’s” anything. Jesus never was “at the Pharaoh’s.” The pharaoh was the ancient king of Egypt, and the office of Pharaoh did not exist in Jesus’ day. Jesus often had dealings with the Pharisees, and I suspect that is what you are referring to. A quick check of John 12:1-9 would have corrected your error.
Also, those of you who have read the posts here should know that Abraham was chastened by God for lying about who Sarai was to the Pharaoh. A quick check of Genesis 12:10-20 would remind you that there was a famine in the land at the time, and Abraham was seeking a way to provide for his family. In desparation he presented Sarai not as his wife but as his sister. He did this in the hopes of saving his life. Abraham did not offer her to Pharaoh; Pharaoh took her. But God sent plagues on Pharaoh because of the immorality involved, and Pharaoh sent Abraham and Sarai away to escape the wrath of God. Clearly God did not “inspire” Abraham to do this. It was his own sinful act which God condemned and recorded in His Word.
The same is true of Lot. The Bible presents Lot as a man who forsook the leading of God and acted on his own. He chose to go to two cities known for their wickedness, and yes, the Bible clearly identifies that wickedness as homosexuality. But Lot offering his daughters was thwarted by the evil desire of the men of the city to have access to the men (actually they were angels, but the men blinded by their sin didn’t know this) rather than to Lot’s daughters. That God destroyed the city is ample evidence that Lot was not where God wanted him to be.
In each case that is cited in the post above, there is so much left out that is a clear indication that the person citing these stories has only a perfunctory aquaintance with them or is deliberately misrepresenting them because of his own agenda.

Certainly, sinsonte, you are aware that the book of Zephaniah is only three chapters long and can easily be read in one sitting and that Paul’s letter to Philemon is only 25 verses long and could not be a page-turner because in most Bibles it appears on just one page. Poor examples chosen to prove a dubious point.

“I know of no place in the Bible that records Jesus “telling the crowd at the Pharaoh’s” anything. Jesus never was “at the Pharaoh’s.”
Whoops, not Pharaoh’s, Pharisee’s. And yes that’s a mistake a more Biblically knowledgeable person likely wouldn’t make. But the point is, of course, the same: Jesus said a little luxury for him is better than some help for the poor who, of course, “will always be with us”.
As far as Lot, he got away free except his wife looked back, for which “God” graciously turned her into salt. Now I’d say Lot suffered more there than his wife unless being turned into salt is a slow painful process, but Lot was Not punished for offering up his virgin daughters or for being in Sodom or Gomorra but rather his wife was punished for wanting to see a spectacle.
And I didn’t claim “God” inspired Abraham to prostitute his wife, just that Abraham did it. Not in so many words but he lied about her status and Pharaoh took her and Abraham said nothing, and “[Pharaoh] entreated Abram well for her sake: and he had sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants and maidservants, and she asses, and camels.” So that’s either prostituting her or the very next thing to it. And “God” punished Pharaoh for (more or less) innocently taking Abe’s wife due to Abe’s lying.
Oh, and please point out to me where “Abraham was chastened by God for lying about who Sarai was to the Pharaoh”. I’m not denying it happened, I just want to see it. And if this is about using the Bible for morality why wasn’t that chastening for the crime mentioned near the crime rather than a casual reading making it look like Abe lied and profited and “God” was fine with that?
And how serious is a “chastening”? Does one of those make up for the ill-gotten sheep, and oxen, and he asses, and menservants and maidservants, and she asses, and camels?

I appreciate your response, nnmns, and I have only a few minutes here to respond because I will be at a service at our church in about fifty minutes.
The incident with Abraham and Pharaoh is a complicated one, and to fully understand it, it is necessary to also see a similar incident recorded in Genesis 20. At first glance it may seem that Genesis 12 and 20 are the same incident told twice. But they are two separate incidents. In Gen 12, Abram allows the Pharaoh to think that Sarai is not his wife. In Gen 20, Abraham (God changed his name from Abram to Abraham in Gen 17:5), allowed the same thing to happen with Abimelech the King of Gerar, a country south of Canaan. But this time God intervened by coming to Abimelech in a dream and warning him that Sarai was Abraham’s wife and he had better not touch her. When Abimelech defended himself by saying that Abraham had said she was his sister, God said He knew that to be true and that is why he was warning Abimelech. Of course, Abimelech was upset with Abraham for doing this and told him so.
It is then that Abraham revealed a weakness in his character. He told Abimelech that when he left Ur, his homeland, under God’s calling, he told Sarai that wherever they went he would introduce her as his sister because, as he said, “the fear of God is not in this place, and they will slay me for my wife’s sake.” (Gen 20:11) But then he revealed that it was not really a lie, because Sarai actually was his half-sister. She and Abraham had the same father, but not the same mother. Yes, both Pharaoh and Abimelech gave wealth to Abraham, which was a common gesture in the ancient world in such situations. Of course, Abraham was a wealthy man even before he left his homeland. He did not get his wealth either from Pharaoh or from Abimelech.
The fact that God protected Abimelech (Gen 20:6, 7) and blessed him is evidence that God did not approve of Abraham’s plan to introduce Sarai as his sister instead of his wife, both of which she was. You see, God had chosen Abraham to be the father of many nations (Gen 17:6), not because Abraham was a perfect man, but because God chose him and made him into a better man than he would be otherwise. A careful study of the life of Abraham as well as the lives of most if not all of the Old Testament characters, reveals a similar pattern of God choosing a man (or a woman, in some cases), recording accurately the failings and faults of the chosen person, but using the events of his or her life to fuflill God’s purposes. God’s chastening may be subtle, but it is there. He corrects those who trust him in a variety of ways. But He makes them better people because of it.
As far as Jesus receiving the expensive ointment instead of giving it to the poor is concerned, it is important to remember who it was that made the statement about giving it to the poor. It was Judas, the betrayer, and the Bible makes it clear that Judas was not interested in giving the money to the poor. The woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with the ointment was worshiping Him, and, as God, Jesus had the right to receive that worship. And, the poor are still with us; selling that oinment and giving the money to the poor would not have changed that. You see that as selfish on Jesus’ part; I see it as a sacrifice on the part of the woman who had a right to do with what was hers.

A few things:
God’s chastening is indeed subtle. Not only did Abraham make off like a bandit, he taught the same pimp-out-your-wife-trick to his son, Isaac, who tried, but did not get away the ruse (Gen. 26 6-11)
On page 30 of his book, “Religious Literacy,” Stephen Prothero distills many surveys done over the past few years and gleams,
– Only half of American adults can name even one or the four Gospels.
–Most Americans csnnot nsmr the first book of the Bible.
–Only one-third know that Jesus delivered the Sermon on the Mount.
–When asked whether the New Testament book of Act is in the Old Testament, one-quarter of Americans say yes. More that a third say that they don’t know.
–Most Americans don’t know that Jonah is a book in the Bible.
The Bible may be America’s favorite book for many reasons, but not because they’ve read it or know anything about it.
p.s. to Wind. Child: No props for calling Philemon a “page turner?” Maybe all that chest-beating in the temple dislodged your funny bone.

I have kept out of this so far, except for reference to one of my favorite novels what I haven’t re-read in a long time, but if I may, I’d like to jump in for a minute to make a process observation.
I think the discussion has gotten off onto some unhelpful tracks. My thought is that this is in part because:
- the principals are pretty much diametrically opposed on their opinions of the value of the Bible, and not eager to modify that opinion.
- the principals are coming from extremely different and not entirely correct assumptions as to the purpose and function of that collection of texts, and
- the principals are fighting with one another (each trying to explain why the other is wrong), rather than having a discussion (which includes each trying to understand why a reasonable person could possible think such a thing), or even an argument (each trying to explain and defend a position, and the other attaching that defense).
This is manifested in such things as getting all woogly about minor errors (Pharaohs / Pharisees; length of Philemon, etc.), and generally focusing on inconsequential minutiae and missing the big points – which are frequently not explicit in what the other has written.
So nnms’s incorrect idea that the Bible is a morality manual has gone uncorrected; his outrage at the immorality found within it, especially in the OT, has been unaddressed; WC’s hymn to scripture has gone largely uncelebrated (I think that was the best post of your I have ever read, BTW), and so on.

What’s the advantage of knowing the answers to the above questions? None that I can see…probably won’t make any more money in life, and unless there is a prize for useless information or trivia as some call it. Does point to the question as to how the Bible is the #1 book on that list. Maybe folks thought they thought it would be the wanted answer.

DS, I think I’m correct in believing a lot of people either take their morality from the Bible or at least believe it comes from there. Certainly on here we see it quoted as an excuse for this or that “morality”. That’s why I’ve been pointing out it makes a crummy morality manual, partly by showing how the “heroes” are immoral at times. And that’s why I’ll continue doing that when I see people using it that way.
WC has just made a case some of those examples are more subtle than they appear and by his interpretation they are. I’ve no idea how many preachers preach such subtleties but I’m betting many don’t.
I’m glad you found that earlier post of his lyrical, too.
As far as JC and the ointment I see no reason why it matters who reports it unless you are suggesting Judas is lying. Of course the poor are still with us; they always will be unless we all get the same income. But some poor people could have benefited from a little charity or Jesus could have been pampered, and he defended being pampered. I suspect “the poor will always be with us” is one of the more unfortunate sayings attributed to Jesus. Perhaps those who find him a great moral model think he was misquoted. If he existed I hope that’s the case.
“The woman who anointed Jesus’ feet with the ointment was worshiping Him, and, as God, Jesus had the right to receive that worship.”
Certainly he had the power (if you believe the story) but what is there about a god that gives it the right to be worshiped. Unless there’s something about being “God” I’ve missed entirely that’s an easy existence. He’s never hungry, never sick, never worries about the future, always has his other two parts to chat with (could get boring but he’s got a hundred billion galaxies each with a hundred billion stars, roughly, to check out). He can seduce virgins, even if it’s maybe only second hand. He’s got clever people like Samuel Clemens to chat with unless he stupidly consigns them to Hell. Of course he’s got a lot of dead people trying to sing hymns at him 24/7 but he can surely shut the door.
I fail to see why a god deserves to be worshipped. No doubt a lot of people worship gods out of fear or thankfulness or such but given the problems all we people have that our gods don’t it seems to me they should be worshiping us, if anything.

So write nnmns:
“I fail to see why a god deserves to be worshipped. No doubt a lot of people worship gods out of fear or thankfulness or such but given the problems all we people have that our gods don’t it seems to me they should be worshiping us, if anything.”
It is here I think there is a sticking point. Arguing details from a book of such complexity is best in another forum. But the idea of how people respond to the Bible seems relevant here. I think people actually worship the book itself – and that is a problem. The Bible is then reduced to magical talisman, a purpose that would horrify and intend its many contributors. But it makes the book a top 10 because people reverence and fear (with a dash of mystical respect) what it represents to them. I often tell my folks in Bible study that is is surely no book for kids. Even such delightfully benign stories like Noah has some adult behavior that we do not want the kids emulating (getting passed-out-drunk-and-naked so your son has to cover you with a blanket) This does not even go near to the story of Hosea, David’s misbehavior (and forgiveness with consequences), or all of the incredible violence (Elijah and the priests of Baal among dozens). There is certainly enough sword and sorcery to appease even the most hard core fantasy fiction freak (Moses and the snakes, for instance)
All this aside, worshipping the book and not the message is pure idolatry. Employing it as a talisman of truth in courtrooms is a complete misuse of the collection. Making it The standard for behavior is silly in the extreme (Do you want your son to behave like Jacob or your daughter to be a wife like Gomar?). It is a book for a converted community, not a bludgeon for conversion. Actually reading the book(s) is great fun, and I enjoy every Bible study. But I do not recommend it to someone who is outside the Abrahamic faiths as a first read. I suggest getting to know people first before insisting they read something like this. In fact, see the story of Phillip and the Ethiopian Eunuch – even he needed some personal help in appreciating and applying what he read.

Well j, as is so often the case I expect there’s a chunk of wisdom in what you write. So I should explain to you, as to DS, why I’ll still be pointing out how bad a place the Bible is to go for morality (unless maybe you beat me to it).
As you know it’s quoted regularly as a reason for doing various things, some good and all too many bad. When I see it being used as an excuse for bad behavior I’ll still have to point out how poor an excuse it makes.

OK, next question:
what is your favorite book, that you have actually read? At least a big part of?

Jesus said, “You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have eternal life.” (John 5:39ff)

Jesus said, “You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have eternal life.”
megalomania: unreasonable conviction of one’s own extreme greatness, goodness, or power …

sinsonte,
I am considering using Prothero’s Book for a multi week discussion. I have fond him to be especially interesting in regards to contemporary American religion and spiritually. I also like his book “American Jesus”.
gzuckier,
You pose a great question. I look at it as what book have I re-read, and will I not part with? Aside from the works of Tolkien, Lewis, and Rowling, I would inclde these. “Enders Game”, by Orson Scott Card; “The Source” by James Michener and as its antidote, “Motel of the Mysteries” by David McCauley; both of Follett’s Cathedral books; most of Twain; Laurie King’s Mary Russell books, especially the earlier ones. and I am sure dozens more. I’ll have to think on this a while. O, a few more – the collected Peanuts, Pogo, Zits, and Calvin & Hobbes. And Dr Seuss (most useful with kids and adults!)

I think this poll is skewed. Some people feel like the Bible SHOULD be their favorite book but let’s face it, Harry Potter, Brave New World, The Stranger, etc…all seem to be far more appealing (to the majority of my peers atleast). I can also see how this can be true though. The scholarly and philosophers study the Bible and for some of the less educated, the Bible is the only book that they’ve been introduced to or perhaps ever “had” to study. None-the-less, this poll is interesting.

You know, the Bible ain’t the “funnest” book—obviously if you just want a nice enjoyable read, “Harry Potter” wins hands-down. But you know, since I started reading the Bible more (a fairly recent development), I realize that as literature, it’s actually a lot better than I ever realized. Go read the First Book of Samuel, you can see real character development there with Saul. There are some stories that I (in my delusions of grandeur where I accomplish my dream of eventual authorship) would really want to novelize.
And something else that randomly occurs to me: most of these books are actually very religious in theme or message. I haven’t read “Gone With the Wind,” “Atlas Shrugged” or “Catcher and the Rye,” so I can’t say about them, but “LotR” was pretty much a philosophical treatise on sin by the very-Catholic Tolkien, “Harry Potter” definitely got religious in Book 7, “The Stand” is basically about the Apocalypse and the Antichrist (deus ex machina has never been so literal), “Da Vinci” and “Angels and Demons” are all about the RCC, and (at least according to my tenth grade English teacher) “To Kill a Mockingbird” is about religious divisions and culture almost as much as race. Not all are positive statements about religious, of course (well, Brown’s books aren’t), but I’m sensing a serious spirituality theme in terms of peoples’ choices.
God bless.

Jesus continues, “I do not receive glory from men. How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?” (Jn. 5:41, 44)

okbelief, what are you trying to say?

I find the Bible to be very murky as well as rife with bad examples, so it’s no doubt just the ticket for studying literature but a bad choice for gleaning morality.

Paul instructs, “Indeed all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you have learned it, and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.” (2 Tim. 3:12-15)

I’m guessing Paul’s income depended on people actually believing those things.
I trust you aren’t accusing anyone here of being evil. I suspect that would be against the posting rules.

According to the best scholars on the subject Paul didn’t write the Timothy letters.
Also Paul’s income was from making tents, not from public speaking or epistle royalties (if he had any heirs, wouldn’t they wish they could collected even a “widow’s mite” from each Bible published!)
Third (and unrelated to the first two points), Joey, I agree, the Stand is awesome – King’s best (IMO).

OKbelief: What ever you’re trying to say, isn’t working for me.

Paul continues, “All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17)

Paul, or whoever, makes some baseless claims. And since he (or they) is responsible for some of “scripture” he’s doing self-promotion. But that happens a lot among church leaders.

nnms -
A couple of days ago, you said:
“‘Jesus said, “You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have eternal life.”‘”
“megalomania: unreasonable conviction of one’s own extreme greatness, goodness, or power …”
This criticism applies, pointedly and directly, if Jesus is not the Son of God incarnate. Since he is/was, it doesn’t.
But you’re right – if Jesus were not the Son of God, he would have been a megalomaniac at best; C S Lewis pointed this out about 50 years or so ago.
BTW – Mary and the ointment: this snip, as with nearly all others, can be understood properly only within context, and this story needs a big context. Read from John 11:1 all the way through to 19:42.
And, you have to be very careful with the gospels, especially the Gospel of John – noting in it is simple, and nothing in it can be taken (merely) at face value.

Deacon Scott warns, “And, you have to be very careful with the gospels, especially the Gospel of John – noting in it is simple, and nothing in it can be taken (merely) at face value.”
That is unvarnished truth, for sure. For example, I am coming to believe that the Exodus was not from Pharaoh’s Egypt after all, but it is metaphorical the story of their Babylonian exile and theri return to re-establish Jerusalem as their cultic center. (So, do you think this idea will spark any fires?)
OKbelief wrote, “‘All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.’ (2 Tim. 3:16-17)”
This is all well and good, but the problem is revelation, a word that can easily replace “inspired”. As one of my prefessors put it, you eithr accept revelation or you don’t; you cannot argue or negotiate it. If nnmns does not accept revelation, offering this or any other text as “proof” is pointless.
If the Bible were truly represnted on TV it would earn the SDV rating (sex, drugs, violence – they are too polite to earn the “L”, for language) It has been banned in some communities for being inappropriate for children to read alone. I think some adults should abide by that same ban. The Bible is best as a communal read. Take a look at Acts 8:26-35, the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch and Phillip. It advices people to read and discuss and learn together.

Luke also says, “And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. And great fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breakinbg bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.” (Acts 2:42ff)

OK, you seem to have missed my point. So why the next scripture piece? As the great cartoon prophet, GArfield, said, “Big Fat Hairy Deal!” Add some of your own thoughts please, and help us understand how your scriptural choices comment on the above discussion.

okbelief, I take it you are praising people who give a lot of money to the needy?? That seems like a fine thing to do. Or maybe you are praising communal living. Why not? Go for it! Or maybe you are bemoaning the absence of “wonders and signs” for the past couple thousand years. I noticed that too. Sort of makes you wonder if any of that happened, doesn’t it.

okbelief:
Are you planning to quote the entire Bible? Certainly, as stated above, don’t you have an original thought on the subject in the article? Or are you hoping to “convert” us non-Christians by the verses? Sorry, it isn’t working for me.

“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” (2 Pet. 1:20-21)

okbelief,
Still not getting it. Try again.

okbelief, Is this supposed to impress someone? (not happening) Or let us know that you can copy verses from the Bible? If that is the case, you’ve proven you can copy to the computer verses from the Bible. We get it!

“But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and becasue of them the way of truth will be reviled. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep.” (2 Pet. 2:1-3)

Whatever, okbelief.

Jesus said, “And the Father who sent me has Himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, His form you have never seen; and you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.” (Jn. 5:37-38)