Well, it is about time!
Better late than never I guess.
If we were not already members of a great church we would certainly look into joining a UCC.
Peace!

Bill Moyers interviews Rev. Wright on Bill Moyers’ Jounral, on tonight where I am. Check here for how to get it and background.
I’m guessing we’ll find a fascinating man.

JohnQ we would love to have you! The same is true for anyone, especially if you are looking for a church home. Check out ucc.org for more information.
This is not exactly news. The meeting was early April. But it’s better now than never.
Not only is each congregation free to apply their faith in whatever ways they choose, each pastor is free to interpret and apply scripture. This makes for a pretty complicated but always amusing mix of attitudes. But we are here for everyone, not only the folks that agree with us. It is a great Church and always exciting.
The thing to watch this summer will be our National Youth Event in July, Univ. Tenn, Knoxville. It is surely the best thing our denomination does. This event is an awesome blend of youthful energy, historic tradition, and joyous anticipation of the future that makes you itchy for whatever comes next. I’ve been to a few and am very sad to miss this one.

Those statements weren’t prophetic, they were sheer demagogery.

It’s good to know that the UCC stands behind it’s ministers.
jestrfyl, your enthusiasm for the church you belong to and minister to,is wonderfully obvious.

I just watched Rev. Wright on Bill Moyers’ Journal for an hour. That is a smart, patriotic, very useful man. If our churches were filled with people like him we’d be a much better nation, surely.
It would be nice if, before someone spoke against him, they watched that show. Check on the link I gave above; it will probably be showing up on your PBS station.

“It would be nice if, before someone spoke against him, they watched that show.”
No, no, no. If someone actually watched an in depth interview or listen/read a whole sermon it would make it much harder to use the Reverend as a weapon in attacking Sen Obama and or a scapegoat to support Sen McCain.
Trinity UCC has been an immeasurable force for the positive on the South Side of Chicago….giving hope to many people who had none….providing assistance to those in need. But, why focus on any of that when one can simply take parts of sermons out of context and lead an attack.
Peace!

We are the best kept, most obvious secret in the country. So lets have a scavenger hunt – how many UCC congregations are near where you live. I’ll give you a “cheat” — go to ucc.org and then to “find a church” – now go there and you will likely be surprised. No really – we are not all alike. Some are fairly conservative and some a out-there liberal. Most of us keep truckin’ along doing what we can with what we got. But we are all good.

What I meant to say was, if our pulpits were filled by people like him we’d be a much better nation, surely. And j I suspect, in the sense I meant, you are much like him.
But anyway, he represents and works with a lot of people whose ancestors suffered in ways most of us either can’t or won’t imagine and who themselves still suffer from the effects of racism in ways a lot of us are not aware, so if occasionally that knowledge comes out in a sermon in a way that makes some of us uncomfortable, far better for us to figure out why he said what he did than to just condemn him.

as a dedicated agnostic, i applaud both the candidate & his pastor for standing up for their beliefs (however non-p/c they may be)…i occasionally attend our local unitarian church (as did many of our founding fathers), & have heard the msg. of rebellion preached there on occasion…i guess i could paraphrase jefferson & say “extremism in defense of freedom is no sin…”…

To support the Rev Wright and his race-baiting church is, to say the least, PREPOSTEROUS!!!

I am glad the UCC leaders didn’t get stampeded by irresponsible press coverage of their minister’s remarks. They did the right thing in my book. And Obama’s fearless and nuanced response to the whole brouhaha made up by the press has convinced this registered Republican that he is the best person to lead the US for the next four years. Frankly, I tired of polarizing extremists in leadership.

Mr Fahrenkrug,
Steve Martin told us to be obsequious, purple, and claivoyant. But frankly, I would rather be PREPOSTEROUS!

And I would rather be a Bible-believing Christian.

And I would rather be rational.

And I would rather listen to Rev. Wright on different talk shows and learn to meet the man that everyone is trying to plow under. So far he is understandable and interesting. bh021, a thiking Republican, that’s good!

What’s a “thiking Republican?

WC, that’s a typo, it should have been thinking.

Did you all watch Rev. Wrights talk to NAAPC tonight? CNN had the whole speech. His thought on the speech was: “We’re just different not deficient”! Great speech, had humour, but wasn’t written to be entertaining; it was written to show differences between people, and that we can change and try to understand each other. I liked it when he said “Ive been running for Jesus for a long, long time, and not for a political office”. He’s a plus for UCC for sure! Now that’s a Preacher.

Henrietta-
Absolutely!
For as much as some believe that Sen Obama’s relationship with Rev Wrights as a problem and/or detraction….I believe that the connection demonstrates a great plus for Sen Obama.
I am sorry that Sen Obam’s advisors apparently have suggested that Sen Obama disavow knowledge of Rev Wright as opposed to defending him.
Without a doubt, Rev Wright is a brilliant leader!
Peace!

Windsors child, I’m with you. I’m a bible-believing Christian that is at peace with the world, since the Sovereign God of the Universe is in control.
Others can be “rational,” or “preposterous,” or be a “republican” supporting Obama.
Personally, I don’t see how anyone can worship at the altar of this false messiah. If he gets elected President, I’m afraid the dumbed down voters are in for a shock of unbelievable proportions. But they will deserve what the get.
Rev Wright just spoke on CNN and he has toned down his speech. It was still loaded with floating abstractions masquerading as concepts.
The blind shall lead the blind and they both shall fall into the pit. In this case some are rushing head first into the pit.
And I’m afraid the UCC has lost it’s way, certainly when it comes to orthodox Christian doctrine. But then, that’s been obvious for decades.

DONALD FAHRENKRUG-
Just because you personally can not follow a speech given by a very well educated, brilliant man of God….does not mean his speech was filled with “floating abstractions masquerading as concepts“.
Sen Obama is running for president of the USA, not as a messiah.
The UCC does not claim to be “orthodox”. Mankind has continued to evolve and our understanding of God’s will has also continued to evolve. There is no Christian Church practicing Christianity in the manner in which it was practiced in the first century. Just as there are almost no people living the way people lived in the first century. Our whole view of life, ourselves, the universe, and God is different in 2008 than it was in 108.
Peace!

DF, you are a dear man and you are just different, not deficient. See how clearly I got that message tonight through a man of God?

Donald Fahrenkrug:
You actually want another Republican elected President? Guess the last 8 years have been so good! Let’s see: Invading a country for no reason and starting a “quick victory” war that is killing our military men and women for no reason, and gas prices sky high, non-existent legislation for the environment, rhetoric that has made the U.S. lose it’s respect in the world, (along with the invasion), and I could go on and on. 69% of people in the last poll think “W” is doing a lousy job….worst presidental rating in 70 years. You want to put another Republican in? Must like the current situation in this country then. Oh and stacking the Supreme Court, overly conservative.
As to the UCC? From what I have learned here and read, if I was heading back to Christianity….that would be the first Christian church I’d try. jestrfyl is a great representative of that religion.

pagansister, I never said any such thing about a republican being elected President. You are preaching to the choir. The republicans have screwed up things about as badly as one can. I’m not a McCain supporter.
And of course, if you were going to be “heading back to Christianity,” you would choose a denomination like the UCC. That’s because they have no doctrine anymore, they try to be all things to all people, they are politically correct as not to “offend” anyone, and instead of preaching the pure Apostolic Doctrine of sin, repentance, eternal life, hell, heaven, imputation, justification, sanctification, glorification, faith alone, grace alone and scripture alone, they teach whatever is popular with the vast majority of fallen, lost people. They bend with the wind of what lost people want. It’s nothing new and has been this way since the time of Christ.
Christianity is very inclusive, discriminating, and very clear on the absolute truth of Jesus Christ. He is the ONLY way for salvation to eternal life. There are not many paths, truth is not relative, and the path is broad indeed, that leads to destruction. Unfortunately, most absolutely with unrestrained glee, choose darkness because they love being at enmity with God. I imagine the majority of lost, unregenerate people in the world would agree with you, not me. And there is a reason for that, which those that have chosen the path to destruction can’t understand.
However, even if I were a minority of one, I would trust/believe completely in the promises of Christ, as for example, promised in John 6:47.
Peace

I should have said Christianity is very EXCLUSIVE, not inclusive. I hate it when I do that. Forgive the error.

DONALD FAHRENKRUG-
Are you a Christian or an Apostolian?
While I am not a member of the UCC, to my knowledge it is a Christian denomination….not an Apostolian denomination.
Through your posts, it appears that you put more emphasis on the teachings of the disciples than you do on the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Christianity is quite inclusive….you appear to be exclusive.
Peace!

JOHNQ:
“Sen Obama is running for president of the USA, not as a messiah.”
Amen to that. You need to tell that to his followers and to the media, all of whom have gone bonkers over this guy.
Thanks for telling me I can’t personally follow a (throw up) brilliant man. You have no idea what I can follow and not follow. The guy is a race-bating bigot, plain and simple. If any white preacher would have said the exact same thing he said to a white church, they would have been crucified and run out of town on a rail. How anyone can defend this just shows are dumbed down the public has become, and how shallow the thinking has become. Obama doesn’t talk about political philosophy or principles, only about change and hope and other bromides that are part of every political campaign going back as far as I can remember. I’m surprised Hillary isn’t running on mom and apple pie. It makes about as much sense.
I am aware that the UCC doesn’t claim to be orthodox. Good thing, since it certainly isn’t. And, please, spare me the nonsense about “Mankind has continued to evolve and our understanding of God’s will has also continued to evolve.” Maybe YOUR understanding has “evolved” but God doesn’t evolve and His will certainly doesn’t evolve. It makes no difference what “our understanding of God’s will” is. If you really want to know His Will, then read his OBJECTIVE revelation to man.
You maintain that God is different now than what he was in 108. Your god might be, depending on who he or she is. The Sovereign God of the Universe as revealed in Holy Writ is, believe me, the same.

Henrietta22, thank you for your comments. I certainly hope I am “different,” than the majority. In this day and age, being “different” is good.
By the way, I don’t mean any of this in a mean-spirited way, even the comments against the UCC. I am saddened beyond belief by the UCC drifting so far away from the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they would have stayed true to the early confessions of the church they would have been OK. But, alas, they quote those in name only, not content anymore.
I went to a dear friends funeral at a UCC church last year, and while I was glad to see that my friend had junked her New Age mysticism, I was shocked when her minister at the funeral had a buddhist monk come up and chant some drivel while beating on a drum. And this was the huge UCC church in the middle of town.
I can only pray that the people that are truly searching for God will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and leave the UCC in droves, and as quickly as possible. There is still a remnant of Christianity left in a few churches. I admit, you have to search them out, but they are there.

JohnQ:
That is my point. The UCC is “christian” in name only. And, if you want to check further, what the Apostles taught IS Christian. It was the Apostles that wrote the New Testament. If the term “apostle” is confusing you, then ignore it and pick up a NT and read it. I know, I know, fat chance of that.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, but the UCC is more like the Elks club, or the Rotary Club, than a Christan church. You really need to read up on what is Orthodox and what isn’t.
And in that reading you will see that Christianity if very, very, EXCLUSIVE. It is the modern day, watered down, bend with the wind, “christian” church that is inclusive.
Jesus is the one who made it that way. I’m sure you don’t believe he even existed, but He said “I am the way, the truth and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father, EXCEPT through ME.”
I could go on and on, but you need to find this out on your own.
And the teachings of Jesus Christ and his Apostles/disciples are not in contradiction. They are in perfect accord. Not only that, but all the prophets of the Old Testament are also in perfect accord with the teachings of Christ. There is nothing I can do or say to convince you of what I say. You search for the truth and you’ll find it. My job is not to convert anyone. That is strictly a function of the Triune Godhead.

JOHNQ:
If interested, go to my blog:
http://seeyouontop.blogspot.com/search/label/IF%20YOU%20WERE%20IN%20A%20BURNING%20BUILDING%20WOULD%20YOU..

re: “Reverend” Jeremiah Wright:
“The US of KKKA” “not god bless America but god damn America”
“Aids was invented by the government to afflict black people”
“the government gives drugs to young black men so they can put them in prison”….I don’t want to believe that these are the words of a minister of the gospel in a denomination that I have a lot of respect for…they are progressive in many ways. We are told that these quotes are “out of context” – I’m a big believer that context is all important in order to properly understand many things. so….CAN WE HAVE SOME CONTEXT PLEASE!!! How are we supposed to understand these words with no CONTEXT? At this point my logic meter is stuck on bigoted showman who will say absolutely anything to get one of his congregants to run up and touch him because they are so pleased that he is race-baiting and bashing the awful white race. Let’s quit making sideline excuses and have some CONTEXT…Bill Moyers’ adoring look at Jeremiah Wright did nothing to explain his comments.

klipper, I couldn’t agree with you more, although how much context is necessary to understand he is a racist that is full of hate for people that are not of his same color.
How much context do you need when a “minister” of God screeches about God Damning America? He has not apologized to this day. I’m sorry, but the guy is an embarrassment to Christianity and I’m disgusted with the people defending him.
Can you imagine what would happen to a white pastor that said the same things

The thing I like about Obama (and McCain) is their resistance to get into name-calling. What UCC’s leadership has over fundamentalist views for me is my preference for tolerance. And no, I don’t belong to UCC and never have attended a service there. It seems a bit ironic that those who seem to be most at odds with Jesus’ apparent teachings are among those least tolerant of others.

bh021552, you can have a preference for tolerance. However, are you telling me that Jesus was “tolerant” of the scribes and Pharisees?
“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!..You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell.” Was Jesus tolerant of the money changers? Not hardly.
I am NOT tolerant of any racist. I feel very good about making a general statement: ALL racists are morons.
Jesus was totally intolerant of hypocrisy, falsehood, and most especially, FALSE teachers. So were the Apostles. You will find no where in Holy Writ where there is tolerance for false teaching. Period!! In fact, read Jeremiah 23 if you want the opinion of the prophet against false teaching.
And there is nothing “apparent” about Jesus’ teaching. It is hard-hitting, crystal clear, and uncompromising–and EXCLUSIVE.

D. Fahrenkrug
This is where the fundamental difference is. The UCC (of which I am a proud to serve as clergy) is radically inclusive. We take seriously the concept of “extravagant welcome”. The institutional Church, developed over the centuries by varying generations tends to be exclusive (sort of like the Elks, Moose lodges, and other groups of that generation). We take our direction from the Gospel lessons of Jesus, like the Good Samaritan, the PRodigal Son, the Sermon on the Mount and many many other places. In each of those lessons Jesus hold open the door and invited in anyone in need – we don’t check id’s, we don’t demand obedience, and we don’t ask for payment up front. The need for exclusivity is fine, but it is not the only path of faith. Some folks need different things. We try not to vilify anyone different than us – and even include some fairly conservative congregations. After 50 years e are developing our own form of orthodoxy, but it is a dynamic situation. But then, orthodoxy is a human creation, so we are neither more nor less guilty than many other religious groups. Our tendency is to favor the powerless people, to work with them, and to invite them to be part of our lives. That seems to be fairly scriptural, especially as you read the Gospels, as well as much of the OT. You may not find what you need in our congregations, but then most of us would not find hat we need in many others as well. The joy of diversity reigns!

jestrfyl, I appreciate your position, although I strongly disagree that Christianity is inclusive even if people are living in sin and totally unrepentant about it. I’m not talking about being perfect, since none of us are. I’m talking about telling people it is OK to deny sin, live the way you want, even if it is in direct opposition of the Word of God. (I realize that most modern churches don’t really believe the Word of God anymore and think it is full of fairy tales and myths, but I’m not one of those).
Could you give me some scripture references for your “extravagant welcome” position and for you being “radically inclusive.”?
You say Orthodoxy is a human creation. I beg to differ. I’m not talking about the Eastern Orthodox Church. I’m talking about Apostolic teaching, teaching formed under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, as set forth in Holy Writ–the inerrant, living word of God, by the way.
What do you mean “powerless people.”? We are all powerless, born under sin, and if not Born Again, condemned to hell.
The joy of diversity, for diversity’s sake, is nonsensical. I’m all for all races belong to the same church. The more the better, however, people that continue to live in total opposition of the Word of God, being unrepentant and insisting that they can live anyway they want and still be acceptable to God, is preposterous to say the least. You know exactly what I mean. Take a couple that are shacking together, have no intention of doing anything else, but coming to church and being told “hey, you’re ok, I’m ok, do your own thing. God is tolerant of gross sin. Don’t worry about it. God loves you.”
I’ve actually heard that in some churches. What that does is make people feel that anything goes. That is not doing anyone a favor. It is putting them on the broad path to destruction, although I believe the UCC believes, like the Unitarians, in universal salvation. I may be wrong on that, but that’s another discussion.
Any sinner is welcome in church. We are all sinners, and we sin continually. The difference is between those that KNOW they are sinners and are repentant, and those that could care less and think there is no such thing as sin.
By the way, to invite the “powerless” people to be part of your lives is fine. But to invite them, teach them, and give them the gospel of Christ so they enter the Kingdom of Light, is better.
I get the impression that what you are advocating is a social club, not a place that is baptizing and making disciples of all nations.

Sorry, it’s late and I missed your following statement somehow:
“We take our direction from the Gospel lessons of Jesus, like the Good Samaritan, the PRodigal Son, the Sermon on the Mount and many many other places. In each of those lessons Jesus hold open the door and invited in anyone in need – we don’t check id’s, we don’t demand obedience, and we don’t ask for payment up front”
Now that is all well and good, however I challenge you to find in any of those passages the concept of being “radically inclusive,” no matter whether you live in direct opposition to the gospel, remain unrepentant, and, actually find nothing to be repentant about, since you don’t believe in any such out dated concept as sin.
Take the Sermon on the Mount, for example: “24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
Invite all, teach all and correct all by the gospel. Anything else if false teaching and falls under the warnings of Jeremiah 23.

“Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!..You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell.”
Pharisee: a self-righteous or sanctimonious person
There are other, more technical definitions, but it strikes me the people throwing this quote around are closer to what “Jesus” presumably objected to than are the people they are throwing it at.

The disappointing thing here is that some people take the Bible so seriously. Face it folks, it’s an old book written by men with various agendas, picked over by other men with other agendas and with a lot of obvious errors. The quotes you enjoy throwing around are far more likely to have originated with somebody writing decades after the purported events than with the hypothetical “Jesus”. And they may well have been edited centuries later.
So lighten up. You are fencing with rubber swords. Do it for fun if you like but don’t take it seriously!

DONALD-
First, sorry if my above statement was not clear….I left out a (:). It should have read: “Our whole view of: life, ourselves, the universe, and God is different in 2008 than it was in 108.” My statement was intended to be about mankind’s view of: life, ourselves, the universe, and God having changed over the last 1900 years. I did not intend to state that God has changed.
Second, I can not speak for other Christian….however, I personally endeavor each day to live my life according to Christ’s teachings. Foremost, I attempt to follow the greatest commandment and the second…as outlined in Matt 22:36-40. I state…”attempt” because I do at times miss the mark (sin) and I am repentant each time I do.
Third, you comment about people living together outside of marriage. Unfortunately for me and many like me….prejudice-supportive Christians have continued to make it impossible to marry. I have no doubt this will change soon. Certainly the UCC which you continue to malign is diligently working along with countless other Christian churches to remedy to end this prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry.
Fourth, I would suggest to you that people who listened with an open heart and mind to Rev Wright speak before the NAACP dinner last night in Detroit could not help but see a brilliant man of God. And, I would suggest to you that anyone who was not moved by his speech was not listening with an open heart and mind and/or are not think for themselves but rather are caught up in the wave started/perpetuated by the Sean Hannity’s of the country.
Peace!

Mr Fahrenkrug
Extravagent Welcomes started with Adam in the Garden of Eden (which he messed up). God’s gift of the rainbow to Noah could be the next (and that did not go quite according to plan). But the whole thing began more explicitly with Abram, when he welcomed the three strangers, fed they generously, and treated them like family. From there the first covenant was given to him. Grnated these are all Genesis, and are interpretive stories rather than anything aspiring to historical. But they interpret the people’s understanding of their unique relationship with God.
Skip & dance to the New Testament (or Covenant) and in John, it began with the wedding at Cana. In Matthew and Luke it began with the Nativities (and also the Quran). In Mark it began with Jesus healing the man with “unclean spirits”. All of these are grace predeing judgement, extravagent welcomes. Even Saul’s conversion on the Damascus Road (Luke’s version of the story is all we have to go by).
Certainly the Samaritan in the Good Samaritan story was an outcast, reviled by the Jews for continuing their own rituals. But he was the hero. The Samartian woman at the well was not cursed and sent away. She was told to go and sin no more (we do not know if she follwed that advice), but she did go and proclaim Jesus’ to her neighbors and friends. The Prodigal Son was welcomed without the father needing to (it was his right to keep the son out). Instead he counseled his other son to welcome the one who was lost. No mention of recompense or repayment, no expectation of contrition or anything else. Simply the rejoicing that he was home.
My point is we do not condemn or curse anyone who chooses to be exclusive. But in the same way, we expect to be treated with the same respect. The powerless people are those who feel they have no sense of equality or mutuality in life. Race, gender, orientation, economics, and politics are all facotrs in this. You may have a “country club” congregation in your experience, but my experiences are far different. If you get to know the people rather than allow one experience to determine your entire perception then you may discover they are very involved in the live of people in need. All the theological jargon and quaint phrases are no lasting help. Instead simply meeting people and inviting them to be part of your life (sort of like meeting them on the roads of galilee or Jerusalem) is the better way.

Jestrfyl, perfect explanation and shows the love of the Trinity. If all Churches taught as you do there would be less “wrong doing”, better known as sin. I truly believe the Holy Spirit will lead all of us if we allow it, and not cling to man-made doctrines.

Henrietta,
Thanks for the boost. Mondays are usually spent cleaning up and fixing whatever happened Sunday, so comments like your help. I truly appreciate it.

D.Fahrenkrug:
You mentioned that in my post that I said if I was returning to Christianity, I’d head for a UCC church, and you said that they have no doctrine, in your opinion, and that they are all inclusive. Personally, I don’t find that a problem. Anyhow, I was raised a Methodist by 2 loving parents. At 17 I decided it wasn’t for me. Have a problem with the whole divine being thing creating the world and those that dwell therein….or a child (virgin being impregnated by divine being story) sent to be crucified for some saving of folks purpose. Married a life long Unitarian, raised my children in UU churches. They too are all inclusive…even of us “pagans”. Was appreciative of the 17 years of Christianity. Gave me a starting point in my religious quest. Right now, I go no where. No need.
But as to other’s beliefs…no problem. I have 2 very devout Christian sisters…and we get along fine. One worries about my afterlife, the other accepts my spirituality just fine. I have no problem with others Christianity or whatever they are into.
So if I return to a formal religious place….probably UU with UCC a close 2nd.

jestrfyl:
Your explanation of the Welcoming UCC was excellent…and as expressed by Henrietta, “there would be less wrong doing” AKA sin. The world needs more churches with the attitude of the UCC (and UU).

pagansister,
I appreciate your good words and thoughts. I know that the UU has a strong presence in your area, as does the UCC. I hope you do find a church home. But no matter what, I think our eclectic and widely dispersed friends here have the makings of a pretty energetic “church”, in the 21st century kind of way.

nnmns,I’m “not throwing around comments by Jesus.” I am quoting directly from Holy Writ, Jesus did say that, the target of those comments deserved it, and the bible is severe in it’s judgment against false teachers.
You view of the bible is one of the main reason the modern church is in such shambles.
YOU SAY: ” Face it folks, it’s an old book written by men with various agendas, picked over by other men with other agendas and with a lot of obvious errors. The quotes you enjoy throwing around are far more likely to have originated with somebody writing decades after the purported events than with the hypothetical “Jesus”. And they may well have been edited centuries later.
So lighten up. You are fencing with rubber swords. Do it for fun if you like but don’t take it seriously!” I am fencing “with rubber swords,” in your opinion. You are entitled to that opinion.
I guess I would have to say I disagree with 100 per cent of that statement. I DO take Holy Writ seriously. It is the ONLY writing that I take seriously. All of your charges against the bible are your purely subjective opinion, based on nothing but your subjective opinion.
The “quote throwing around,” charge is preposterous. We will have to agree to disagree since we come from completely different presuppositions. You continue to hold to your beliefs and I will do the same.
PEACE

JOHNQ:
We agree on something. I fall far, far short of the two greatest commandments also. That’s why I thank God every day that salvation is NOT based on what we do, but on what we receive, which is the free gift of salvation, through faith. My thoughts on that are on my blog.
YOU SAID:
“Third, you comment about people living together outside of marriage. Unfortunately for me and many like me….prejudice-supportive Christians have continued to make it impossible to marry. I have no doubt this will change soon. Certainly the UCC which you continue to malign is diligently working along with countless other Christian churches to remedy to end this prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry.?
To stick to the orthodox teachings of Christianity is not “prejudice, discrimination and bigotry.” It is bigotry to say you are “christian” then work for the totally opposite of what Christianity stands for.
I’m not sure what you mean about “me and many like me.” If you are coming from a homosexual position, then I would say not even straights bother with marriage, so why the push for gays to marry?
It was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. You accuse me of being a “prejudice-supportive Christian.” First of all, I don’t have a prejudice bone in my body. I believe marriage between a man and a woman is God Ordained. That’s it. I could care less if gays want to marry, or not marry. They can marry each other, 50 wifes (God help them if they did that), whatever. I have never stopped one single person from getting married. I think same-sex marriage is moronic, absurd, pointless, and unnatural, but I could care less if it takes place.
You say I “continue to malign” the UCC. No, I continue to state that the UCC is not Christian in any sense of the term. If the UCC wants to advocate for gay marriage, etc., fine with me. But it is not Christian to do so. It is denying Scripture. Why don’t they just drop the “Christ” out of it and call it some liberal advocacy group? That would make more sense.
I think you are a sincere person and none of this is personal. I challenge ideas, principles, theology and philosophy, not persons. And that goes for Rev Wright. I challenge his beliefs, not him as an individual, although I judge him by his words. He might be a great person to have lunch with, but as soon as he opened his mouth his true racist feelings come up. That’s what I am against. Him and anyone else with similar ideas.
I watched the entire speech and the Q&A session on CSPAN last night and again today. Rev Wright is a race-bating bigot. (his ideas) I cannot tolerate racism–period. He dug himself in deeper than the original sound bites. He is one bitter, obnoxious, lost soul. His focus is on color and that’s what runs his life, not the teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the Apostles. The man is sick.
You can suggest that since I don’t agree with you, I was not listening with an open heart or mind. Wrong! I was listening, and I tried to find something, anything positive from his speech. Nada. He can’t help it. His whole life and belief system seems to be based on how he was born, not based on orthodox Christianity. His so called “black liberation theology,” is a man-made, absurd, antiChrist theology. All “liberation theology” is baseless. The only liberation there is, is from sin. That’s another discussion.
Peace

jestrfy, you said:
“Granted these are all Genesis, and are interpretive stories rather than anything aspiring to historical. But they interpret the people’s understanding of their unique relationship with God.”
Like with Johnq, we are going to have to agree to disagree. We are coming from totally opposite ends of the scale, here.
I take the bible as absolutely inerrant in ALL things. The bible is historical and …..well…nevermind. I start from that fact, and could not disagree with you more on the low, low standard you have of the bible. That’s why, in my opinion, you hold the theology you do. It’s not based on anything but what is pleasing to man. It most certainly is not based on the inerrant Word of God. I start from totally different presuppositions than you do. We couldn’t disagree more on the bible.
Sorry, but all your examples have nothing to do with your “Extravagent Welcome

As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted by hitting the wrong key on the computer:
Sorry, but all your examples have nothing to do with your “Extravagant Welcome,” at least as far as I understand it. I’m not even sure what your point is, but what I am saying is fine, welcome one and all. No problem. All types, all colors, all everything. But that being said, if all these people continue to live in total opposition to Christianity, yet insist on thinking they are Christian, THEN that is when you are doing a disserve to them and the church if not trying to instruct them in sound biblical doctrine–and Christianity is DOCTRINE. Just read Romans and Galatians and the other writings of Paul.
Accepting all is one thing. Approving and encouraging their sinful behavior is something else.
Actually my church has about 50 members and is in the inner city, is a blue collar, working class neighborhood. I love it. I can walk to the center of town from my house in about 20 minutes. I don’t do rich. I mainly do poor. But that’s fine with me. I make do with what I have and could care less about material things. (however, I’m not a tree-hugger).
We are all sinners, but at least we recognize there is such a thing as sin, not just pretend otherwise.
I’m sure you are sincere in your beliefs, and a kind person. I have no doubt. So am I. We just come from opposite ends of the spectrum. I hold the bible to be the inerrant word of God, you hold it to be written by man and full of errors and myths. So much for that.
Sometime when you get a change read Absolute Predestination, by Jerome Zanchius. It was written about 400 years ago, which I guess in your opinion, would immediately disqualify it. It is just a suggestion.
Peace be with you

“All of your charges against the bible are your purely subjective opinion, based on nothing but your subjective opinion.”
No, based on history such as it was in those long-ago days.
Oh, and did I mention the Bible has lots of obvious errors? Things it wouldn’t contain if it were actually inspired. Let’s look at just a few of the times the Bible directly contradicts itself:
2 Kings 8:26 says “Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”
2 Chronicles 22:2 says “Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign…”
2 Samuel 6:23 says “Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death”
2 Samuel 21:8 says “But the king took…the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul”
2 Samuel 8:3-4 says “David smote also Hadadezer…and took from him…seven hundred horsemen…”
1 Chronicles 18:3-4 says “David smote Hadarezer…and took from him…seven thousand horsemen…”
and let’s toss in one more blooper:
Lev 11:6: “And the hare, because he cheweth the cud…”
Hare don’t chew cud. Cows chew cud, sheep chew cud, all ruminants chew cud but hares are not ruminants. No skin off the nose of a guy who didn’t know that thousands of years ago but a god would know that if It were worth It’s salt. Guess it was written by a guy, with no god involved.

nnmns, ALL those scriptures have been answered time and time again by bible scholars–that is bible scholars that actually believe in the bible. I used to have a complete list, which included may 50 or more than you have quoted, but have lost it.
None of that impresses me it the least. And even less impressive are the so-called “higher critics,” of the bible, most of whom are totally lost, unbelieving pagans.
Once again, the reason for the state of the UCC is just exactly what you are showing. When you have such a low opinion of Holy Writ, you can come to no other conclusion. And that’s fine.
As stated, I the bible is the inerrant word of God, is so precise and detailed it never ceases to amaze me.
Now, most critics can’t understand the bible because the mind and heart has to be opened by the Holy Spirit. If not, then a person CANNOT understand. 1 cor 2:14.
I bet in all your critical reading, you weren’t impressed by Numbers, Chapter 2. Can you find the CROSS in that chapter? And this is 1400 years before Christ. If you discover what I’m referring to, just as a hint, if you were standing way above the camp spoken of in Numbers 2, you would see a perfectly formed cross. Of course, this is one of maybe 3,000 detailed, types, shadows, references to Christ throughout the OT. I don’t mean to bore you, but I have my reasons for KNOWING that the bible is inerrant, and God’s revelation to man.
I’ve said it before, we can’t agree because we are coming from completely different presuppositions. I’ll stick with mine, thank you.
Peace
P.S. I did not take the time to refute your “contradictions” because they have been refuted a few thousand times already, and I don’t have the interest in slandering God’s Word. I leave that for others.

D.Fahrenkrug:
Just a point, even though it wasn’t addressed to me: You wrote: “And even less impressive are the so called “higher critics” of the Bible, most of whom are totally lost, unbelieving pagans.”
FYI, I am so NOT LOST. Believe that the Bible is THE book? No, for many reasons. But lost? No. Totally happy and know exactly where I am. JC was a wise teacher, but so were lots of other religious figures over history.
The definition of Christianity is as varied as the people who follow it. IMO the only sure thing is that those folks believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and that He is the savior. How they follow that common idea is varied…fortunately. Personally I can’t understand how a book written 2000 years ago is a complete, accurate book about how to run anyone’s life. Too much human handling over that time.

“nnmns, ALL those scriptures have been answered time and time again by bible scholars–that is bible scholars that actually believe in the bible.”
Responded to, no doubt. Explained, only for those whose worlds would collapse if they admitted the Bible has bloopers, which it does. You can claim it doesn’t over and over but that doesn’t negate the obvious fact it does. An “inspired” book wouldn’t require convoluted, logic twisting excuses, it would just agree with itself. Anything you can say here to defend it will be lame so I don’t blame you for not saying anything.
And I haven’t read much of the Bible at all; I admit to borrowing from some who have. I have soo many better things to do with my time.

I wish I would have kept some of the essays and books I had that refuted all that nonsense, but, alas, I didn’t. And it is so unimportant to me that I have no desire to search for the material. I’m sure you could google it if you wanted to.
As for the world collapsing if this idiocy were admitted, that is your opinion. Personally, I have NEVER run into one single person, in my 40 years of studying the bible, including all those “errors” anyone who was the least bit impressed by any of it.
Me thinks you don’t understand people that have complete TRUST in the promises of Christ. And I don’t expect you to. You are in the vast majority of the world. And since you have better things to do than read the bible, I wholeheartedly suggest you proceed with your interests.
Unless the Holy Spirit regenerated you, and opened your mind so that you could spiritually discern the Word, any effort on your part, by your own effort, would be totally useless anyway. It’s the nature of the beast, my friend. I used to rant and rave against Christianity just like you, but I got over it when I found that all the philosophers didn’t know anything either, and all contradicted each other and some were just plain goofy.
I thought I was an atheist during my college years. In philosophy class I debated all the Christian kids and really upset them. But some of those who knew their bible, and more importantly were Born Again, stood their ground very well.
It’s pretty funny. The bible, since the beginning, has been attacked unrelentingly. It’s been banned, burned, forbidden in most countries, people have been murdered for only having a few pages in their possession, and, of course, to no avail. It will last forever, whereas most of it’s critics will cease to be.
http://www.tektonics.org/college.pdf
DO YOU REALLY HATE JESUS?
http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm
Peace

By the way, nnmns, don’t you find it rather ironic that this discussion is taking place on a website entitle “BELIEF NET.” If this site is representative of the type of “belief” that is out in the world, things are worse than I thought.
I would expect some of these comments addressed to me if I were on an Atheist website, but the decline and fall of America never stops amazing me.

“Me thinks you don’t understand people that have complete TRUST in the promises of Christ.”
Probably not fully; I find it hard to imagine ignoring evidence to the extent anyone must to think the Bible is inerrant.
“DO YOU REALLY HATE JESUS?”
What a silly question. I’ve always been an atheist and I have doubts whether the person Jesus existed; I’m quite sure the supernatural critter Jesus didn’t. And any Jesus of those days is long dead, so why hate him? I could probably say I hate Hitler but more precisely I hate what he was and what he caused, with the help of a lot of Germans and others. My impression of Jesus, if the existed, is that he would have been a fairly nice guy with some megalomania. I hate what a lot of people have done with his myth.

Sounds just like the answer I would have given years ago, when I was an atheist. Well, all I can say, is I hope you feel at home with the crowd.
Regardless of polls, etc., I would say about 1 per cent of the people in the world are Christians. Now, many more think they are, but are they in for a surprise.
Of course numbers have no bearing on truth anyway.
I know you are at peace with your beliefs, so carry one.
Peace

So carry on. (I hate typing errors). Have a great day!

Yes, Donald, this site is called Beliefnet….and it is the home for education on almost every religion known, as well as a site where people who are of various religions (or none) can discuss topics and learn from each other.
If this site is an example of what beliefs are out in the world…this world is not in bad shape at all…as most of the folks who post here are great. Things certainly aren’t bad. Just because they aren’t all devout Christians doesn’t mean this world is in bad shape.

pagansister:
Obviously, we disagree on this also. Christianity is the ONLY way to the Triune God. The world is in pathetic condition and getting worse by the day.
You, like most people, including many so-called Christians, probably believe that there are many paths to many gods. That is what the vast majority of fallen mankind believes, so you are in the majority.
However, Jesus says “I AM the way, the truth, and the life, NO ONE comes to the Father, EXCEPT THROUGH ME.
So there it is. You believe that or you don’t. Nothing I can do about it anyway. Take your stand. You are either for him or against him.
Jesus says in John 6:47 that those who believe IN HIM, HAVE eternal life. The flip side of the coin is that those who don’t believe him, do not have eternal life. I believe, most don’t and to each his own.

“You are either for him or against him.”
Or you are indifferent. Speaking for myself, there’s no god but lots of paths, some pretty interesting.

Being indifferent fits right in with the world. I swear, if Jesus came back again this minute, the indifferent world would crucify him again, without a doubt. He would be mocked, spit on, beat up, and laughed at. Such is the world. Jesus opinion of people that are indifferent, or lukewarm:
“So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,I will vomit you out of My mouth.” Rev 3:16
In Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
I quote this only to show you that NOTHING has changed. Your attitude, and the world in general has always rejected Christ. Christ desires all to be saved, that’s why he continues to endure such rejection. However, the time is getting short, the end is near. Read all about it!!!

“However, the time is getting short, the end is near.”
That’s been an effective fund raiser for no doubt well over a thousand years. But those who know that get real immune to it. No doubt you can still pull in the naive that way, though.
DF I’m sorry you bothered to memorize all those passages from such an error-ridden tome. There are so many better things you could have been doing.

nnmns, one last thought to leave you with. It’s been fun.
1 Cor. 1:18-25:
“18 The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. 19 As the Scriptures say,
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise
and discard the intelligence of the intelligent.”[e]
20 So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world’s brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish. 21 Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. 22 It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. 23 So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
24 But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles,[f] Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 This foolish plan of God is wiser than the wisest of human plans, and God’s weakness is stronger than the greatest of human strength.”

DONALD-
“I take the bible as absolutely inerrant in ALL things. The bible is historical and …..well…nevermind. I start from that fact, and could not disagree with you more on the low, low standard you have of the bible. That’s why, in my opinion, you hold the theology you do. It’s not based on anything but what is pleasing to man. It most certainly is not based on the inerrant Word of God.”
First, allow me assist you here….your opinion/posit/assertion that the Bible is “absolutely inerrant” may be many things…but, it is not a fact.
Second, you seem to be attempting to establish your “opinion” that someone/anyone on this board has stated that my/our/their theology is based on: “what is pleasing to man”. No one here…outside of your assertion…has stated that.
My theology is based on the two great commandments (Matt 22:34-40) as well as the Big Ten…and, the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Third, blaming God and/or your religion for your prejudice against lgbt people does not change prejudice into something noble. Rather, I would suggest it is taking our Lord’s name in vane.
Peace!

D.F. wrote, “I’ve never had an atheist or liberal “Christian” ever intelligently respond to this fact. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were found by a bunch of lost, unbelieving archaeologists, they found copies of the Book of Isaiah. According to the bible the Book of Isaiah was written 700 years before Christ. Now these unbelievering archaeologists couldn’t accept that, but they determined by their “scientific” methods, that the Isaiah was only written 200 years before Christ. Now, the interesting fact.”
OK, this is why your arguments become less than beleivable. Your facts are all over, but not where they belong. Specifically, the D.S. scrolls were found by bedhoiuns, not archaeologists. They were not unbelieveres, but quite attached to their faith. The scroll was was a copy, not the single original, and it’s date was not much before Jesus’ life and ministry. Isaih’s ministry was likely 600 to 500 years before Jesus. The “Three Isaiah’s” represent the period before conquest, exile, and post exile.
It does you no good to misrepresent material that is easily checked.
The D.S. have little if anyting to do with atheism – they are testimony only to a community of readical believers who valued the Old Testament and sought to preserve it. There is no magic or mystical chicanery. Simply people honoring their faith, being discovered thousands of years later. It is not the first time, nor is it the oldes discovery. It is simply a more complete collection.

D.F. also wrote, “In the book of Isaiah there are about 25 detailed prophecies about Christ, written according to the unbelieving atheists at least 200 years before the events, that have been filled to the exact letter.”
Any good scholar will tell you it is much more likely that the Gospel editors took the predictions from Isaiah and elsewhere, and applied them to Jesus. Even those times Jesus quoted an OT passage or prophet, he was re-interpreting those words in a new way. At no time does he imply or state that there was some magical, mystical application. He would surely be quick to point out that the Isaiah passages were appropriate to their time and a king for whom they waited – perhaps even Cyrus/Darius. And to say that Isaiah was written by an unbleiever is simply sloppy Bible study. Isaiah was a Temple priest, then a prophet commenting on the impending invasion, and finally a prophet anticipating their return from Babylon and exile to Jerusalem (and some modified independence) But this was not anything like Nostradamus’ “predictions or any other fortune tellers (an OT no-no, by the way). It is much more similar to modern politicians trying to apply the life of Washington or Lincoln to their own.
Give the Biblical editors and authors some credit for their accomplishments. God gave them the skills to write and compile. To make it some diluted version of “spirit writting” is a diservice to them and to God.

DF:
It is fortunate that there are many more ways to believe than Christianity. Where will I spend eternity? I’ll be cremated and my ashes spread on the ocean of my favorite shoreline, where I currently live. My energy will leave my body and will return to the universe, since that is where it came from. We are made up of energy. It leaves at death.
All in all: There is no ONE TRUE WAY. Quoting the Bible with all it’s “believe in me stuff or you’ll go to hell” proves nothing. As stated by many…written by men to push an agenda…copied, changed, translated, and still being “rewritten” into current language(s). It loses something in translation. But if all that makes you happy, be glad you live in a country that allows you to do so. Many countries are run by the religion of that country, and you are literally doomed if you break the rules, the “religion cops” get you. Fortunately this country, though some claim it is historically Christian and still is, fortunately isn’t. It is beautifully varied.

I am glad I’m in a country like the United States, although it is rapidly loosing it’s freedom too. I’d hate to be in an atheistic country like China, and some of the other dictatorships. We finally agree on something. The atheistic communist dictatorship under Mao murdered more than a 100,000,000 people during the great leap forward revolution.” Russia wasn’t much better and Mao and Stalin actually bragged about how many they murdered. Of course Russia has returned to Christianity (in some form at least) and Stalin and his thugs are in hell.
Me quoting the bible doesn’t make it so, in your opinion. I quote Holy Writ because it is true tho.
You believing your “energy” returns to the universe doesn’t make it so either. What a deal. Your unconscious “energy” gets absorbed into the universe. Kind of like a dog, right?
You forgot to deal with the fact of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like atheists always do. Not that it matters, one way or the other. Truth is based on a person, which of course, is Jesus Christ, Son and Savior.
Once regenerated (Born Again) by the power of the Holy Spirit, and brought from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of LIGHT, you then KNOW the truth and truth shall make you free. I have nothing but pity for those that are so happy wallowing around in the kingdom of darkness. Forgive them Father, they know not what they are doing!
Happy absorption into the universal mind, and no personal existence, in your opinion. The problem is, there is a personal existence as you will see. It’s location, location, location. Where will you spend it–and consciously?

D.F.
Look Up!
That is, scroll up to my 2 latest postings here and you will see references to the D.S. scrolls (1:14 & 1:28 today). I think you need to re-do some of your homework.

jestrfyl , I guess I didn’t make myself very clear. I’m not concerned about who found the DS. I was referring to the “scientists” who spent years examining them. There conclusion was that the book of Isaiah was written at least 200 years BC. So it would be like someone writing in the late 1700 hundreds, several detailed series of events to take place in the 20th century, and ALL of them without exception coming true.
I’m surprised, well, actually I’m not, but you are a minister in a Christian church and from your comments you don’t seem to believe a whole lot about Christianity. You certainly don’t believe the bible as the inerrant word of God.
Like I said, that is one of the main reasons that the ultra-liberal churches are in such a pathetic state. They no longer can be considered Christian, as far as I’m concerned.
The “scholars” most of whom are lost as a box of rocks, have to credibility with me. The “higher” critics have been proven wrong time and time again. Like those bunch of morons from the Jesus Seminar.
And, of course you buy into the “three Isaiahs,” nonsense. I find it difficult to believe that you consider yourself a minister of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Nothing personal, here, just your ideas. You might want to check out Jemimah 23.
I’m glad I happened onto this discussion, since it reinforces my opinion that the modern-day church, or what passes for a church, is so far gone, as not to be a factor anymore in the spread of the gospel. Thank God, there is always a remnant, but I feel sorry for those poor souls who wonder into a church like the UCC and think they are hearing Christianity preached to them. It’s pretty sad, really.
Just so you don’t spend a lot of time with this, I totally disregard all the “bible scholars,” those engaged in slandering the Word of God. This is a position that you and are not going to settle. You accept those loonie tunes and their blasphemous opinions, and I don’t. End of that discussion.
Oh, by the way, evolution is a total fraud, God created the universe in six 24-hour days, and Adam and Eve were not a cute little myth. Genesis is absolutely truth. Creation vs evolutionism is one that evolutionism cannot win, because it is totally false.
Now, friend, we are so far apart it is useless to continue this. You continue to preach your version of the gospel to the people that come to the UCC and I will continue to attend my great SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCH.
However, I do wish you well and peace be with you. Bye.

nnmns, sorry, I didn’t see, for some reason, your response about the DS scrolls. In this long list of responses, I missed that particular comment.
The fact is, tho, the “scholars” or writers didn’t take what was found and apply it after the fact. That was the point. Those copies of Isaiah were written at least 200 years BEFORE the events took place, and that according to those atheist scientists that examined the documents. (I’m not saying ALL were atheists and skeptics, but most and they still concluded the documents were written at least 200 years before the events). Of course, I go by the bible and say they were written 700 years before the events took place.

D.F.
If I were to have been honored enough to have been one of the scholars working on the Scrolls I would be offended by your slanderous (and fairly ignorant – as in choosing to ignore certain information readily at hand) remarks. But I am not so honored.
Subscribe to whatever beliefs that make your heart sing or your head swim. But do not believe that it is your perogative to make derisive and demeaning comments about anyone who simply holds beliefs other than yours. This area is for people willing to share in conversations and discussions, not for petty name calling and dismissive proclamations.

I read the history of most of those “scholars” in AR magazine, or some other national magazine. Sorry, I don’t have the articles now and don’t remember which ones they were. But I’m going on what these people said about themselves.
Talk about petty name-calling. What do you call the blasphemous comments against the Word of God.
We are at an end for this. You are convinced your view of Christianity is correct. I believe mine is. Nothing more anyone of us can say.
I was offended by the remarks of the “scholars” working on the DS. I am offended by the Jesus Seminar and others of the same ilk. I’m offended by liberal Christianity and these churches that have consistently distorted the gospel of Jesus Christ. However, me being offended is no big deal. I get over it and move on. I’m not into victimhood.
I will withdraw from further comments on this board. The thoughts here are so far to the left, and so unrepresentative of Orthodox Christianity, there is no point to this anyway.
Peace be with you

“The fact is, tho, the “scholars” or writers didn’t take what was found and apply it after the fact. That was the point. Those copies of Isaiah were written at least 200 years BEFORE the events took place, …”
You missed my point so let me make it again, more plainly I hope. The things in Isaiah were apparently written first, as you say, then the people making up the Jesus mythology, being aware of the then-pre-existing predictions and wanting to plug into the older religion, used those predictions in making up the Jesus mythology.
In short, parts of the NT were written with an eye to predictions in the OT. It doesn’t give any proof of magic, just that some of the NT writers were aware of older myths, both Judaic and, e.g. Persian (Mithra, whose worship preceded the Jesus myth by many years and who also, e.g., had 12 companions, went around performing miracles, was called a redeemer and a savior and a Messiah, and who died and was buried and rose from the dead after three days). There are also parallels in the Jesus mythology with, e.g., Ra the Egyptian sun god.
So the NT writers did not hesitate to borrow from other religions as they made up the Jesus mythology.
You worship a religion partly pulled together from dust bunnies of many older religions.

*smile*
All I can say is none are so blind as those who will not see.
Peace!

DF:
It is obvious that you are happy and have certainly consumed all the Kool-Aid.(grape?) This makes you happy.
“Your unconscious energy gets absorbed in the universe. Kind of like a dog, right?” The fact that my parent’s energies are together again in the Universe, makes the “dog” comment crude and really rude. Since my parents weren’t dogs, nor am I, I can’t answer your unkind question. My beliefs makes as much sense to me as yours do to you…what with the Heaven thing and all.
What I find amazing is that you have no tolerance for other’s beliefs due to the fact that yours, IYO, opinion are perfect and contains absolutely no mistakes. Amazing.
Blessed Be

BTW, Donald F:
Who said our energy is “unconscious?” That would be? you?

Hey, nothing’s wrong with dogs! I’ve got some old pal dogs I’d be happy to have my energy mix with theirs! Unlike some people I could mention.

pagansister,
Like the bumpersticker elsewhere on B’net says,
“God, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am”.
I think the dogs of history may be more offended than the people. There are many days I would rather spend with dogs than people. So peace be to the dogs, puppies, mutts, and purebreds. And peace be to us as well.

Thanks,nnmns & jestrfyl for those kind words, but somehow I don’t think DF meant it in a kind way.
And yes, PEACE be with us as well.

Donald F.
While I realize the attention you have generated is probably what you seek, you indeed make my point.
Jesus certainly had opinions and he apparently expressed them strongly. You however, take a few statements out of the context of his teachings. This is what makes fundamentalist Christianity virtually indistinguishable from fundamentalist Islam and true-believing atheism in my view – an overriding intolerance for other views to the point of repression, given the opportunity.

You know, I can understand that people like Obama…but to make any attempt to defend Wright is simply ridiculous. You partisans just make yourselves look ignorant. I have lived all over the country, and I’ve attended countless churches both black and white, and I have NEVER heard any minister say the kinds of things that Wright says.
All of you should be ashamed.

After reading some of these posts I can’t express clearly enough how blessed I am to have been born a Catholic. I pray that the Holy Spirit will enlighten some of you to look for the fullness of truth which is only found in the Catholic Church. Yeah, yeah, I know, how about the abuse? Well, abuse is not restricted to the Catholic Church and I think most people are aware of that. And, yes, some of the clergy let us down and will continue to do so, but Jesus will not let us down. He promised that the gates of hell would never prevail against His church, and I believe Him. Cheers!

IF WRIGHT WOULD READ THE BIBLE AND IF HE WERE A TRUE PROPHET FROM GOD THAN HE WOULD KNOW. THAT HE IS SUPPOSED TO PREACH LOVE FOR EACH OTHER AND NOT BLAST THE COUNTRY THAT HAS GIVEN HIM THE FREEDOM TO EXPRESS HIS VIEWS AND HAVE WHAT EVER RELIGION HE BELIVES IN. RELIGION MEANS NOTHING WITHOUT SALVAION AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES US LOVE EACH OTHER/
INSTEAD OF TEACHING RACISM HE NEEDS TO TEACH YOUNG PEOPLE TO RESPECT THEMSELVES, AND TO LOVE THERE FAMILY GOD AND COUNTRY, HE LOOKS LIKE HE WANTS FOR NOTHING HE NEEDS TO TAKE SOME OF HIS WEALTH AND HELP THE LESS FORTUNATE. PUT MONEY IN YOUTH CENTERS TO HELP GET THE KIDS OFF OF THE STREETS