Introducing a triple negative into a discussion is poor strategy and accomplishes nothing. They are more likely to make thier point by making simple, positive statements. Who or what cause do they support? Explain why and then end your statement. Double and triple negatives are a fools tool used simply to obfuscate the illusion of intelligent argument.

“They also find fault with the PC(USA) interpretation of the biblical gift of the Promised Land “to all the descendants of Abraham” — a group that would include Christians and Muslims as well as Jews.”
Wouldn’t be the first time a contract’s terms are interpreted differently by different people. But anyone who actually thinks it was a real contract and thinks the giver is still around has but to ask who the intended receiver was. Surely for a question as important as that one the giver would answer. Fiery finger writing across the sky or such?

The Revised Common Lectionary for this month is all about Abe, et al. One of the things I discovered anew is that God rpomised Abe and his descendents – through both Ishamel and Isaac – everything between the Euphrates and the Nile. As a way to consumate the deal Abe had children with an Egyptian (Hagar) and a Mesopotamian (Sarah). And those were not his only kids. After Sarah died, Abe re-married and had a bunch of kids. All of them were granted bits of land east of the Jordan. Isaac got weat fo the Jordan and Ishmael got south, towards the Arabian peninsula (think Mecca & Medina).
The point of all this? According to scripture (a fallible legal document at best), the heirs of Abe SHARE the region – all of the region. Ishamel and Isaac came to terms, later this summer we will read that Esau and Jacob/Israel came to terms and lived long and well together. In that the readers of the Quran are expected to know the Biblical stories in order to understand their own scripture, I would hope they read Genesis carefully. At the same time I think many of the Jews & Christians ought to read the Quran carefully. I have included a quote from Sura ii, 136 in our bulletin as a way to underscore our shared legacy.
After more than 2500 years, you would think they might get tired of this.

I share the concerns of The Jewish Council for Public Affairs. The Palestinians were given a significant chance to have their own land at the very outset of the creation of Israel in 1948. They chose to do otherwise. The PCUSA should back off from their ongoing statements and divestment agenda that they have proposed. Peace/Shalom, Richard

Richard I think you misunderstand. You are commenting from one side of a political fight for land and water. The PC(USA)’s interpretation was just that, a biblical interpretation.
I think all rational people could surely agree we should not be mixing political fights with biblical interpretations. To base a claim for land on something as dubious as a biblical quote, even one far less ambiguous than that one, leads to chaos. The last thing we need is chaos.

We have so much chaos in the world right now that people in the middle of it don’t even recognize that they are part of the problem, including the churches.

I am in agreement and I think it is about time we divest ourselves from this type of discrimination that kills. I personally do not believe in a particular holy land, although certain events may have made the area historical God made it all and people are more important to God than land. That kind of thinking (land grabbing) has obviously gotten us into trouble for too many years. Also there are many peaceful Palestinians and there is territory Israel needs to consider giving back to its rightful owners.
I am Presbyterian and I stand behind this language, it may not be perfect but it is a move in the right direction, toward a peace the Middle East may otherwise never see.

It’s never going to happen this way because Jews will never be bullied by Xians again.
All of the best plans will come to naught because when we see it comes from a church we will turn our back on it.

Scott, you’re helping neither Jews nor Israel when you constantly stand with your arms folded and shout, “I dare you! We won’t talk to you, ever, and we won’t work with you!
Also, it seems to me disrespectful to write “Xtians” and not bother to take the effort to write “Christians”. Jest, I’ll leave it up to someone like you to tell me if it’s disrepsectful to write it that way – maybe I’m wrong. Mabye it’s the same principle of many Jews not writing out G-d’s name as a matter of respect. I don’t know.
If one is going to take a Biblical stand on inheritance, then Ishmael was not part of the bargain because he was the son of a concubine and G-d told Abraham that He would also make of Ishmael a great nation.
The covenant, however, was made with Abraham and reaffirmed with Isaac and Jacob.
Regardless, the PC has shown a consistent disregard for the rights of Jews and Israelis and their land, which has been occupied by Arabs and others for centuries. Jews never abandoned Israel and never left her and have been trying to get back their land this whole time.
While I don’t agree with building of new settlements in the West Bank, I also don’t agree with the PC’s lack of acknowledgement that so many Palestinians and the terrorist government it elected (note that “Palestine” did not exist until the UN officially gave Israel as a homeland for the Jews after WWII) wants only to eradicate Israel. In Gaza, for example, the militants daily set up rockets and mortars to launch into Sderot and other southern Israeli cities. This does not smack of a people who wants peace.

ECL,
I will have no dialog with people have have no use for Jews.
You should know our theology. We are not to speak or write the name of any foreign gods. The name of their god is in the name of their religion, and it is certainly NOT our God. Therefore, I will never write it, and do what I can not to say it, and I’m sorry if they are offended, but just saying the name flirts with idolatry.

Henrietta,
Read your ToRaH carefully. Ishmael WAS part of the bargain. In Genesis, G-d says that there is a covenant with Ishmael, and that he too will be the heir and will father a nation. His name means “Heard by God”. In Bible study today I asked the people to put together the names of the sons of Abraham. They are “Heard by God, Laughter”. G-d blessed BOTH sons. God wants us to rejoice, to laugh, to be pleased that G-d blesses all people! IT’S IN THE ToRaH!
And now a trick question – how many sons did Abraham have? Seven! At the virile age of 120 Abe remarried and had 5 more! And they also became part of the Arabic people. We HAVE to get passed this ancient pseudo-feud. Ishmael and Isaac did, Esau and Jacob/Israel did.
Scott – your stubborn allegiance to a concept impresses no one. Impetuousness and arrogance are simply rocks in the road. There are many of us who have great appreciation for Judaism and Jews – be careful about who you lump together. There is an old saying about “Assume” – ask your rabbi.

Jestrfyl, thanks for explaining Ishmael, etc., and torah, but I didn’t say anything about either one. I just said two sentences about chaos. I’m always a willing student to understand something new so that’s o.k.
Scott I grew up among Jewish people, loved everyone of them and they me. Evidently they weren’t bought up with so much angst as you seem to have absorbed. I don’t care how you spell christian, or how jest spells God. You just go along and do it your ways and I’ll continue mine. God the Father, Jesus the son, and the Holy Spirit know what’s in my heart and spelling isn’t high on their list for a problem.

Henrietta,
I apologize. I have no idea what I was reading and how whatever it was got tangled with your comments. I think I was busy preparing for Sunday and all my thoughts got spaghettied.

jest, henrietta’s right, the comments were mine.
and i stand by my statement. as i said before, G-d told Abraham that He would make a great nation of Ishmael, but the land of Israel and the Covenant was made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I am not sure where are the boundaries concerning the promise land and I think the confusion is causing lives.
Jesus thought that neither temple, synagogue or land were as important as people, He used the example of the body being the temple. I really don’t think that God is in that fight.

I agree with you cknuck, finally.