YESSSSSS! Good for the C of E. They are making progress.
I find it amazing that there are still some who think that just because JC had 12 dudes following him around that women have no place leading a church. Hello! It’s 2008, not 2000 years ago.
As to the ordaining of women making relations with the RCC harder, who cares? The RCC is so far behind the “program” it is unreal.

Yes, the RCC will change; it’s just a question of when. And JC didn’t have any Chinese dudes or Indian dudes (either kind) so how do the RC’s and the C of E’s get off having Chinese or Indian priests, etc.?

Big mistake the church is in trouble with some of the crazy men now women, it’s a huge mistake that will be evident in time. I have never seen a woman fit for leadership on that level, very few and I mean very few men are.

“I have never seen a woman fit for leadership on that level, very few and I mean very few men are.”
I don’t think I ever saw such a deep hole dug with so few words.

cknuck-
“I have never seen a woman fit for leadership on that level, very few and I mean very few men are.”
Great leadership is a product of: knowledge, experience, wisdom, discernment, and IMO prayer. Great leadership has nothing to do with male genitalia.
I do agree that there are very few men that are fit for leadership at that level….however, I would add: and women to the statement.
BTW, our presiding bishop (primate of TEC the American branch of the Anglican Communion) is doing an outstanding job in her role.
Peace!

“One bishop broke down in tears at the meeting of senior British church leaders in York, in northern England, as he described his distress at the church’s lack of willingness to accommodate the traditionalists.”
Right, continue the discrimination because some men are uncomfortable with equality of women. So, now rather than women who have been discriminated against for centuries being the victims….it is the men who are uncomfortable with equality. Geesh!
Peace!

JohnQ I respect your opinions, I really do, regardless to how they obviously differ from mine. Than being said there is some equality regarding men and women but thank God there is not at the same time, women are not equal to men. Women have some distinct disadvantages when it comes to leadership especially on such a massage scale, and most of the time women overcompensate when trying to prove they can do the job that men traditionally do. Your illustrious leader for example has done damage to the church that hasn’t been fully realized yet. It will probably take a couple of fiscal years to determine the tip of the iceberg of damage she has caused. Not to say that most men have not made huge mistakes in high level leadership but there has never been a woman that could generate leadership on the level of a male leader.

“Women have some distinct disadvantages when it comes to leadership especially on such a massage scale”
Freud speaking?? I couldn’t make this stuff up!

There are those who want the Church to reflect their values and those who want the Church to challenge and lead change. I applaud any denomination that is trying to challenge and guide changes in a culture. Those that simply reflect the values (of their significant donors, usually) are often the first to crumble in the sicceeding generation. Leadership can mean going first and helping people find a safe way to make changes. Or leadership can mean sitting har and fast and making sure nothing gets too far out of reach (like an anchor – or a millstone around your neck). Jesus chose the first style of leadership, and we know how well that went. Most denominational leadership chooses the second – and they become dry brittle institutions.
ck,
I hope you don’t mind if I stand a few – well, several – steps away from you. I think there will be more than a few rotten tomatoes thrown in your direction – and maybe even a couple of mushy watermelons, too. I respect your opinions, and your bravery at expressing them. Mine are quite the opposite. Good luck – you may get enough vegetables thrown at you to make your own V-8 juice!

Thanks jest for your respect and the humor and I would welcome any evidence to refute my position although you are probably right it will probably turn out to be just rotten fruit.

“As to the ordaining of women making relations with the RCC harder, who cares? The RCC is so far behind the “program” it is unreal. ”
What “program” is that? To completely alter one’s theology and morals to be compatible with the times? It was our Lord who said to not be of this world, because the world hates Him. It is a clear warning to not stray from what you believe to be the truth and have held as truth, simply to accommodate the wishes of secularists, and those that simply want to look “good” with the times. We’ll let the ECUSA and CofE do that and allow us to gain about a million new adherents. Look for an official announcement on that after your Lambeth conference.
“BTW, our presiding bishop (primate of TEC the American branch of the Anglican Communion) is doing an outstanding job in her role. ”
Sure, an outstanding job in sowing discontent, disunity, and spreading a false gospel, if any gospel at all. Don’t a fair number of ECUSA bishops now question the exclusiveness of Christian salvation through Christ, the virgin birth of Christ, and even the resurrection?

I hope the Roman Catholic Church stands up for its beliefs in the face of this. Actually, I’m pretty sure it will. It has for 2000 years. Its one of the few institutions left that stands by its values against the waves of relativists seeking “equality” in the name of a false progress. The Church of England has caved and is falling apart thanks to “progress.”

cknuck: “….women are not equal to men”.
If this was 2000 years ago, I’d maybe understand your comments, cknuck. But it isn’t. There was a time women were considered only good for being barefoot and pregnant…have babies until they died (and many did), considered not able to handle money or own even their own property, as they were basicly the property of the men they married, not smart enough to vote (because politics was for “MEN”) and in some countries girl children are still sold to be slaves for “rich folks.” (that’s another story). But I could go on and on. Women can do any damn thing they want in life, in business, the church, at home, in the military etc. Are all women fit to be Bishops? Of course not. Are all men fit to be Bishops? Of course not. I raised my daughter telling her that she could be anything she wanted in life…she is equal to any man. My son was also raised being told he could do anything he wanted to. He was also raised knowing that women were his equal! It isn’t the gender that decides the quailfication of a person for a job. Unbelievable to me that there are still some “men” who feel that women are still not equal to them.
BTW, cknuck, what are the disadvantages of being a woman being in a high position in any church?
No name poster:
The RCC is behind the program in many, many things, not the least of which is the recognition of women as equals..equal enough to be priests, not just baby makers. I’ve heard the claims that women are respected etc. by the RCC, but know what? That’s BS. If so, the big dudes in the RCC would give women the right to lead by being something besides male controled “nuns.” One of their manipulations was claiming Mary Magdeline was a prostitute, which she wasn’t. She held a lot of power, but that wasn’t how the male dominated RCC wanted things. Yes, the RCC won’t give in as long as they have popes like Benny around. And it isn’t just “seculiar” folks who think it is time for a bit of an update. I’ve heard many of my RCC friends think so too. However, no religion has all the answers…not even the RCC.
As to TEC…IMO it is doing fine. And when you get down to it, if there is a god, do you think She/He has a favorite church? That ivine being just likes all the worshiping!

pagansister wrote, “And when you get down to it, if there is a god, do you think She/He has a favorite church?”
What a straight line! I can’t begin to fathom the humorous potential. The most obvious answer is NONE! Now who can provide the punchline for this great opening from p.s.?

“To completely alter one’s theology and morals to be compatible with the times?”
“It has for 2000 years. Its one of the few institutions left that stands by its values against the waves of relativists seeking “equality” in the name of a false progress.”
I don’t know about women in the RCC and the history of what they could and couldn’t do but I know a little about the changing RCC opinions of when a fetus gets a soul. To change on that like the RCC has changed seems to me to be pretty changeable.
Now change is good if there’s a reason to change but the RCC’s changes seemed to be at the whim of a pope. But maybe a Catholic respects the whim of a pope more than I do.

And yet, with varying opinions on the exact second life occurs scientifically(good job splitting hairs nnmns), the Church has always taught against abortion as an evil to be avoided. Your argument is somewhat off base and based off of someone else’s interpretation of Church teaching. Not the teachings themselves.

Exact second?? They differed by months. And before it was “ensouled” it wasn’t murder to any of them.
And if the interpretations are wrong, point out documentation that shows they are wrong. They’ve been there some time and I’ve referred to them before and nobody has even claimed they were wrong, let alone provided documentation. Can you do that?
No, I’d say the RCC is kind of changeable, like anything run by people.

pagan quote “in some countries girl children are still sold to be slaves for “rich folks.” (that’s another story).”
You are correct your whole argument is “another story” you talk about the military and the fact is that women can only carry out certain functions in the military and there is much they are not qualified to do most women wouldn’t want to do what men do. I see nothing to refute my claims so far.

| I suspect you are right about the military but I wouldn’t bet the ranch on it. However what on earth does that have to do with running a church? And what evidence do you have that “most women wouldn’t want to do what men do”? Pee standing up, run churches, be infallible. I’m guessing a lot of women would like to do those things.

No, “no-name poster”, my arguments aren’t another story. Won’t agree with that. There are women in danger in Iraq and Afganistan, just like the men, so tell me that women can’t compete in that area too. They are dying and being wounded just like the guys, so don’t feed me that BS about the military.
Do you also diagree with history’s treatment of women? No votes, no property ownership etc.? Where did you get your history?

| wrote,
“the fact is that women can only carry out certain functions in the military and there is much they are not”
I suspect to have more to do with what women are allowed to do, not what they can do. When it comes to it, I expect women are the match for the counterparts (can’t excatly say “fellow” soldiers – it would be too oxymoronic). There are certain physiological differences, for example in the hips, thus the legs. But for the most part, I don’t think these differences are noticeable in the skills required for any military duty.

jest so far as to plan and execute believe me you want a man. I also believe men run countries, banks and most institutions with much better decision making processes. That is most of the time there are exceptions but the norm goes to men as it well should. Worship leaders’ men hands down period. Not that there aren’t exceptions as I said before but if men took their rightful places in the home, in church and behaved themselves respectfully and dutifully in government like their godly design there would be less crime, more productivity, respectful offspring, happier families, cleaner safer neighborhoods, less sexual deviancy, more jobs and a stronger dollar.

ck,
I could NOT agree less with you. I have been part of organizations, secular and religious, that were far better run by women than men. It is not a gender thing, but attitude, personality, and presence. In worship, meeting organization, and any other way, I have determined distinctions in the way things happen, but no difference in accomplishment. Making gender distinctions is as fruitless as making racial or any other distinctions based on objective standards. In working with people I have learned through experience that it is the person that makes the difference. So much of who we are is shaped by gender, age & birth order, region & nation, parenting, education, and more that no single characteristic is more significant than another. Although Paul and I have significant points of difference in some places I agree with him that neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free is different before God. The same is true before a congregation, a meeting, or in any other setting.
So I have no over ripe fruit or soft vegetables to throw, but I remain in a very different place than you on this point.

OMG cknuck!
I can’t believe you actually believe what you wrote! Do you live in this century? Your attitude towards women is totally unreal…I think the word is “Male Chauvinst.” Guess what? WOMEN CAN DO ANYTHING. Thank goodness there are fewer and fewer MEN in this world with your attitude. This isn’t Bible times ….women have come “a long way Baby”, but not with the help of men. I think you live in the wrong century. You’d be happier in Bible times with arranged marriages and “women had their place”…which unfortunately lasted far too long in this world. However, believe it or not, times have changed. There are still come countries that arrange marriages and don’t give women rights…would that be better.
BTW, your comments about how MEN would do everything better “if they followed (your favorite words) “God’s design.” Men don’t, do they? So another question, what’s God got to do with anything??
WOMEN are and always will be, THE EQUAL to ANY MAN. Gender doesn’t determine a person’s ability to do a job.

“Jew nor Greek, male nor female, slave nor free is different before God.”
jest you act like I am disagreeing with Paul that’s a misdirection tactic I am in agreement with Paul’s statement but that has nothing to do with the comparison between man and woman and the differences. Some differences are obvious and some less, this world has become so skewed some of the differences are blurred. But never the less on the whole men make much better leaders when on the rare occasion you find a good man.
And yes pagan if one is truthful gender does make a difference in people’s ability to do certain jobs, it a fact, there aren’t many women who would want to be “equal to any man” they are and were made unique and I certainly wouldn’t say I would be equal to any woman. Although women are marvelous I wouldn’t want to be one I enjoy the differences on all levels. Don’t try that antiquated jab about wanting a woman barefoot and in the kitchen because I’ve been barefoot and in the kitchen cooking for my wife that’s not my point at all. Women do many jobs and are well paid for them but one would be foolish to think that women should govern and lead, very few men can do that well as evident by the shape the world is in today.

cknuck. “Women do many jobs and are well paid for them but one would be foolish to think that women should govern and lead,very few men can do that well as evident by the shape the world is in today.”
Most women who are doing the same jobs as men, are not paid the same salary…men are paid more. Fact.
And you have admitted above that men have not done such a good job of leading…so how can you say “it would be foolish to think that women should govern and lead…”? Women would do better…India has had many successful women leaders, England, (Queens and a Prime Minister), Germany has a woman leader, one of the African nations has a woman leader (can’t remember which country), women have ruled The Netherlands sinced 1890, Golda Meier of Israel, so it really isn’t true that women don’t make good leaders…and finally the U.S. Supreme Court has had 2 women Justices…and unfortunately now there is only one. They have proven themselves capable in leadership roles for centuries. Mary Magdeline was a leader in the 12 dudes who followed JC. The RCC’s men and other men just decided to make her a “fallen woman” so JC could redeem her. The U.S. still hasn’t had a woman leader,and didn’t manage to get a woman candidate for president….but at least a capable one ran. Maybe next time. IMO women might have been able to keep the “world” from getting in this shape.
Glad to hear that you are content with your gender.
As to being barefoot in the kitchen…yes, you, as a man can be that, but you can’t be barefoot AND pregnant in the kitchen.
On the whole, women have proven themselves the equal or better than men in many, many roles, including leadership in countries and in religion.

That’s a lot of information you just shared pagan but not all of it is true and just about none of it proves your point.

Anon, what isn’t true? About Jesus and Mary M.? Many people believe what Pagansister said. Her points were very well proved Imo. The question here is can a woman be as good leader as a man. Leaders need intelligent brains, they don’t need brawn. In the brain dept. women are equal to men. In the brawn dept., they are not equal most of the time.

You asked the question I was going to ask “no name poster”, Henrietta.
no-name poster:
Please tell me just what I said that wasn’t true…I’d be interested to know. You casually mentioned that “……. not all of it is true and just about none of it proves your point.”
IMO, it does. However tell me exactly what ISN’T true, and how what I said DOESN’T prove my point.

Sorry about not signing in on my last post, Mary M did not lead at any time, no one followed her, nor did she start a movement or church like the disciples. The Bible does not mention her as a disciple not that she was not devoted.
Golda Meir is the only woman you mentioned that came close to being a kind of a leader, leading socialist Zionist Israel was a mess grabbing Arab territories and her cabinet could not agree. Not a good example, sorry.
Now if you mention Margaret Thatcher you would be more on point she was a conservative nicknamed the Iron Lady my only disappoint with her is that she decriminalize male homosexuality, but oh well, just kidding, it’s not a crime I do believe it is a sin, so she was correct in her actions.

cknuck:
According to the Gospel of Mary, a lost apocryphal text, Mary did quite a bit after JC died. She encouraged the other guys to go out and spread the word, if you will. They were afraid they’d be put to death too, since JC was. She told them JC would protect them. She was also close to JC while he was doing his thing for those 3 years. Were the other dudes happy to listen to a woman? No. But she played her part…that flies in the face of many men, thus the lost Gospel of Mary. Lost? Maybe on purpose, who knows? Of course the Bible doesn’t mention her doing any of the things you mentioned….it was written by…you guessed it…men.
As to the leadership abilities of those you mentioned, Golda and Margaret, everyone has different opinions. Certainly they were at least as good if not better than the men that have run those countries. My contention that we women are equal to men and have proven it by running states in the U.S. as govenors, representatives and senators to Cogress, as well as the women leaders of other countries still stands. Women can do anything they put their minds to….and are equal to any man, in all areas of life including religion.

pagan quote “and are equal to any man, in all areas of life including religion.”
Sorry but that is an impossibility, just look around their are some exceptions but not many

Women are coming into the positions in government, business, religion, and the Armed Forces that were always marked for men. As time goes on they will prove their abilities, as they have been doing but on a greater scale. There will always be men who have shakey egos that will never admit that men and women alike have points that could be improved upon. Those men will never be able to agree that men and women make mistakes in judgment, and decisions; they will see wrong in all Womens leadership and no wrong in Mens.

Has nothing to do with shaky egos (by the way I appreciate the civil conversation up til now) but its fact men and women are equal in the sight of God as His children but He made us different for obvious purposes. When people no longer see, appreciate and value the differences then the world is in trouble.

cknuck, you continue to tell us: “it’s a fact men and women are equal in the sight of God as His children but He made us different for obvious purposes.”
How can women be equal “in the sight of God” yet not really equal? That is what it sounds like when you say…”He made us different…”
So, are we equal or not? Women make babies, Men run the world? A God’s plan? Guess again. Women can and do, have children (if we choose) AND run homes, companies, countries, states, and yes, even churches. So the difference is in our physical build and genitalia (for obvious purposes), but as to the mental abilities, we are equal. Women can be just as physically tough as men. Have you ever carried a baby 9 months and given birth? If men did that, some would understand birth control a lot better!!
I do appreciate the differences and appreciate them. However that doesn’t change my mind…Women have been and always will be equal to any male.

cknuck:
A short addition to my last statement above….Women have been and always will be equal to any male….EVEN in church leadership…it is so NOT impossible.
The only reason there aren’t more women running churches…has nothing to do with a divine being…but with the male domination of religion so far. That is fortunately changing. Why would MEN be better equiped to run churches? They’re not.

“So, are we equal or not? Women make babies, Men run the world? A God’s plan? Guess again. Women can and do, have children (if we choose) AND run homes, companies, countries, states, and yes, even churches.”
pagan you made this statement but if for a moment you observe the state of kids today you would have to agree, No they can’t. Do you know what it takes to make a baby and help create a stable healthy (spiritually and physically) human being? One demand will always outweigh the other, what you end up with instability. As a counselor and a minister I’ve known far too many of these households and the real stories, the kids are hurting, the husbands are a mess, and the woman turns to her work for satisfaction it seems as if her work is the only thing she can do right so she does and then even the work may suffer. I’ve rarely seen a woman “lead” (running is so inappropriate) a successful church, as a matter of fact I’ve seen many churches without enough men so lopsided I know what I’m talking about because I’m there, I am a church person.
The other differences also agree with me, men and women think differently, different chemically, strength wise there is a different and deal with people differently so women are blessed in areas men are not they are designed to compliment each other not so much for competition.

cknuck:
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do know what it takes to raise a child and work while doing it. My 2 children have turned out just fine, and I worked while raising them, along with my husband. My mother and father both worked and my sisters and I have done well. We didn’t suffer because our Mom worked outside the home, nor did my children suffer because of my working. My sister and her husband have 2 daughters…both work and their daughters are fine, as does my other sister and her 3 children are just fine (2 grown and married). So, yes, I understand motherhood and a working life. Many of my friends were working mothers…their children are grown, married, and doing fine. You see the family who is unstable because of the working of both parents. You have seen the not successful folks who didn’t manage to figure out how to have children and a career too. You said you are a counselor, so you’re not going to see the happy men and women who have their careers and marriage and stable children. They aren’t the ones who seek advise from an outside source. What you have seen doesn’t apply to everyone. There have been messed up kids ever since women started having children, (Cain and Able) so the current generation is no exception. It’ll have it’s share of messed up kids. Kids get messed up even when there is a stay-at-home Mom. So I still contend that women can do whatever they want.
I have seen a woman lead a church successfully…I was a memeber of that church. I can’t believe she is the only woman minister who leads well.(Yes, she has children). I’ve also seen several men not lead a church successfully, so I really don’t think it has anything to do with gender.
Yes, women are different chemistry wise, I’ll agree with that. Otherwise there’d be no chldren! Does a woman’s chemistry cause different ways of looking at things? Sure. However even with those differences you mentioned, women are now in the military, laying their lives on the line as well as the guys. They can fire a weapon, carry gear, etc. All in all, I can’t think of a career that a woman can’t do. Even with your observations, I still feel women are equal to men in the working world, (which includes religion).

I stand corrected there are many families that have both parents working that do well and I am glad to hear that you have been so blessed. But some roles take the parent away for long periods of time and consume them emotionally these are the instances I am referring to not 9 to 5′s. Most people are well aware the pastor’s kid does get into trouble more often than not, but I’m thinking it would be much harder for a woman to be the absentee parent.

Agreed, cknuck. All families handle things differently.