How sad that all of the Churches mentioned above attack our Gay children and their families with such coldness, and hate. They are despicable and have nothing to do with Christianity in my opinion. Pearson who is for the gay sons and daughters in the Mormon Church, and herself a Mormon along with the other Mothers, Fathers, etc. don’t let them put your children asunder anymore. If they can’t get it about love and they can’t get it about what our American Constitution tells us about being equal in America they are hopeless, and shouldn’t be respected for anything they do.

When the fundamentalists argue that they are protecting “traditional marriage”, they lie that they are riding the Mormon financing tidal wave. They accuse the California Supreme Court of “redefining marriage”? Wasn’t it the Mormon Church that “redefined marriage”?

Well this is an interesting state of affairs…even the LDS is divided on Gay issues.
Certainly hope Prop.8 goes down in flames, but it isn’t looking too good.
Wasn’t the LDS church one who pushed multiple wives originally? So how can they preach that marriage should be “1 man & 1 woman” when originally it was “1 man and many women.” What is the difference then, if it is 1 man & 1 man or 1 woman and 1 woman? The only difference with same gender marriages is that the procreation could be a problem, as the Mormons want very, very, large families. But I’m sure that there might be a child in the Mormon child holding place in heaven that might be given to a same gender couple through adoption or invitro.

“Give us money or we’ll publicly identify you as opponents of traditional unions,”
I’m no lawyer but that sounds like blackmail to me. I hope it is and they suffer to the full extent of the law.
The question “Why are Mormons contributing all this money?” cries out for an answer. Why on earth, for instance, would the Patterson’s apparently risk their children’s futures to contribute to something that really doesn’t affect them at all?

In other words, who’s playing them for such fools and how are they doing it?

This is too delicious: Mormons and anti-Mormon bigots having to work together! Christians better love their enemies because they sure as hell can’t trust their friends.
No on 8! And in Arizona, no on 102!
Freedom and Justice for all!

Here’s an article from The Salt Lake Tribune with a lot more information. It sounds like this could rip a big piece out of the LDS. I hope so; they deserve it for doing this..
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_10797630

I wonder if this is driven by an attempt on the part of Mormon leaders for their religion to be more accepted by conservative Christians. Clearly that worked against Romney. Ironic that they seem to be moving toward conservative Christian power brokers when America is moving away from them.

It is so sad to see adults trying to control who another adult can enter into a commitment with. It is based solely on religion, a religion which is not mine.
I really appreciated the poster who reiterated that hating the sin is not hating the sinner. I understand your position is not based on hate.
It is still a position of controlling the lives of other able-bodied, sound minded adults and because of that, it is a position that should not be placed into law for the rest of us who believe differently.

I don’t know too much about Mormons and I certainly don’t hate them or judge them but I do welcome them in this struggle, yeah Mormons. It will be yes on prop 8 win or lose at least I’ve done my part in keeping with God’s laws, will and his design for man and woman.

I was just at a wedding of two ladies who’ve been together twenty nine years and raised several children together, seemingly quite well adjusted children. If they don’t deserve to be married I can’t imagine who does.
cknuck you say you’ll vote for Prop 8. Please consider that you can, of course, avoid marrying a man and you can counsel or even preach encouraging others to not marry within their sexes and that’s not impacting anyone’s rights. But when you vote to deny people the right to marry who love each other you are impinging on their lives in a way I hope you’ll realize is, while perfectly legal, not a righteous thing to do. And of course lots of people who take their Christianity just as seriously as you do feel homosexual marriage is ok, so you could be wrong in your interpretation.
So please think again before you vote.

Should read “were not religious officials”.

nnmns: righteous = acting in accord with divine or moral law
While I appreciate your request and argument I must say I was rather surprised by your use of the word righteous. It is already a righteous law concerning marriage = one man one woman. I’m not denying anyone a right I am staying consistent with my beliefs a rare thing these days. There is no interpretation that is misinformation the Bible is very clear in defining marriage especially Jesus, so fortunately there is nothing to confuse me. There is no right to marry among same sexes and never has been God made the design perfect only we continue to mess it up and now wow people are really mudding the waters. No I stand on my vote and it is clear I will not confuse the young that would be a sin I couldn’t live with.

Divinity and morality are not the same thing however. one can be moral without having a religious aspect to it. Now, i believe it to be immoral to vote yes on prop 8 or any other anti-gay-rights ammendment. why? The bible says “Thou shalt not steal”. If proposition 8 is to pass, then the constitution will be ammended to prevent gays and lesbians from marrying. A possibility that was there before, but wont be there if prop 8 passes. You will have stolen it. You will have taken something that is not yours to take. Gay marriage affects you in no way whatsoever, it is not part of you or your life. So taking away the possiblity of gays and lesbians to marry is in fact theft. Thou Shalt Not Steal.

I think Jesus only spoke of heterosexual marriage, because he assumed he was talking to a mostly heterosexual crowd. He did not say that gays must not marry anywhere. and no where in the bible does it mention gay marriage at all.

No gay marriage is mentioned in the Bible, but I’ve always found it ironic that those beautiful words of love and commitment from the Bible, often spoken at straight wedddings, were spoken from one woman to another:
“Intreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God:
Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, if ought but death part thee and me.”

righteous: “morally justified” or if you like “acting in accord with moral law”
It would be silly to talk about “divine law” because there are so many, conflicting versions of those. It’s really a meaningless concept except as believers apply it to themselves.
But it”s clearly immoral to use your particular religion as an excuse to take a valuable right away from others. If you choose to live your life by your religious beliefs you can do that (till it impinges on others, such as if you withhold needed medical help from your children because of your beliefs). But there is no proof whatever that your religion is correct (that’s why it’s called “faith”) so to take away a valuable right from someone else based on your particular religious beliefs is just wrong.

Well Said, nnmns.

The misleading of the anonymous poster using one of the most beautiful scriptures in the Bible spoken by Ruth to her mother in-law is a tactic of deception to promote homosexuality. If one was defending an honorable subject then why would one have to use a dishonorable tactic? There was no homosexual reference, inference or intention between Ruth and her mother in-law Naomi so why try to infer it?

I used to respect Carol Lynn Pearson, until I read this: “We (Mormons)have been raped by organizations that hate the Mormons but love our money and our energy. Now we find ourselves pregnant with fear and even hate.” How can she claim to be a member ‘in good standing’ whilst attacking it at it’s very foundations?
Her words remind me of Isaih Chapter 5, summarized by Matthew Henry:
They are daring in sin, and walk after their own lusts; it is in scorn that they call God the Holy One of Israel…They confound and overthrow distinctions between good and evil. They prefer their own reasonings to Divine revelations; their own devices to the counsels and commands of God. …

“We (Mormons)have been raped by organizations that hate the Mormons but love our money and our energy. Now we find ourselves pregnant with fear and even hate.”
I’d think that stands a good chance of being accurate. As I understand it Mormons are acting uncharacteristically and in concert with groups that despise Mormonism, and carrying a foolishly large amount of the burden. Something has caused them to do that and fear is usually a good suspect for explaining foolish behavior.

I wonder which axiom works best here?
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
or
Politics makes strange bedfellows

Carol Pearson and you nnmns have explained all too clearly of the senario that is playing out. There is none so blind as one or in this matter many who cannot try to see.

I was the anonymous poster. I didn’t say Ruth and Naomi were in a lesbian relationship, I said that it was ironic that straight couples misuse the meaning and intent of that scripture in their wedding rituals. The fact of the matter remains that the words were from one woman to another, not bride to groom or groom to bride.
On another note: A local radio show here in AZ reported on Saturday that they had reports of people voting yes on 102 (AZ’s Prop because they see it as anti-Mormon/anti-polygamy

Interesting post sinsonte, one I hadn’t thought of, voting yes on Prop 8 because they think this is aganist polygamy. Thought they were aganist it. Very confusing. Perhaps they are also aganist it because they believe their marriages go on from earth to heaven, and they don’t want to see same sex marriages in heaven near them? In Protestant marriage ceremonies we say ‘Until Death Do Us Part’, guess they don’t repeat that in a Morman wedding ceremoney.

No on Prop 8 would actually open the doors to polygamy after all if you are going to change marriage for one group then why not for all.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and I am also gay. I awakened to my orientation when I was about 12 years old (like most heterosexuals do). I quickly realized that my orientation ran counter not only to my Church’s teachings but also to the society around me. Through decades of soul searching, prayer, fasting, counseling by both LDS and non-LDS counselors, counseling by Church leaders, personal observations of thousands of other people’s lives like my own, personal experiences, etc. I finally realized that God loves me just as I am, as He created me. I learned that there is absolutely no way that I could change my orientation and I now know that God created my orientation for His own special purposes. That is His mystery and one that drives Latter-day Saint leaders, Evangelicals and other Christians nuts because our very lives just do not fit their theological mold and interpretation of scripture.
I think that one reason God is sending His gay and lesbian children to this earth in such large numbers at this time is to teach people how to love unconditionally and authentically without dogma or precondition. That is one powerful way that the people of God can surrender to God and let Him be in charge as opposed to men being the ones who are speaking for Him drowning out His still small voice through fearful words and actions. We (gay folks) have a unique calling to help millions of people, to be angels to them and to minister to you all in ways that are unique to our calling. It is so incredibly Ironic that the very Churches that are supposed to be there for all of God’s children are now trying to harm us by using dogma to separate us from the rest of society in making us stand on an unequal footing with the rest of our brothers and sisters as the marriage opportunity (along with all of its responsibilities and blessings) goes. Many of our Churches cannot fathom us standing shoulder to shoulder to the rest of the human family. They are blinded by the dogma that (in the case of the Latter-day Saints lack of modern revelation on the subject) they have inherited from the conflicted Medieval Christian period.
To those who use the polygamy argument that polygamy must somehow be made legal because of same gender marriage being legal all I can say is that they are wrong. Polygamy is not an orientation. People do not all of a sudden (as teenagers) awaken to a polygamous orientation. Polygamy is (for the most part) a religious belief system for the vast majority of people who are polygamous. When the law of the land made the practice illegal the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discontinued its practice gradually until the gate was finally locked (outside of the U.S.) by President Joseph F. Smith around 1916. Most of the splinter groups who continue to practice polygamy today are obviously not a benefit to our society as we have seen through the years as there is a high incidence of abuse toward women and children in many (not all) of these households. The other problem is the numbers of men and women in these societies when becoming more equal create a real problem for them. The inequality of opportunity for these communities (for young men as well as young women) is often a major problem. Hence we see the situation of “the lost boys”. Those young men who are kicked out of the community.
One of the principles that Joseph Smith, Jr. taught and later prophets reiterated was the fact that God will not put two people together who do not wish to be in a marriage. That is one of the main reasons they always state that marriage be of the couples “own free will and choice” and not something forced upon them. Forcing people to do something has never been the way God works under any circumstance. This same principle (if God is just) must then be given to the Gay and Lesbian Children of God. We too will never be forced to be with anyone whom we do not wish to be with. So what about the person whom we do wish to be with? What about the person whom we have loved for many years whom we wish to share our lives with? What about those of us who have been married before (gay people who have been pressured into opposite sex marriages that typically have devastating results) and have custody of our children and wish to raise those children as a couple? What about the children whom we have adopted as a same sex couple? The argument that children in a same gender marriage household grow up lacking the same coping and emotional skills as those in a traditional marriage household does not hold water when exposed to the factual data. Most of these children are vibrant, emotionally strong, high achievers, brilliant, able to cope with the pressures of society, etc. How does the Mormon Church answer to these young people who have had a different yet no less positive role in the world as their brothers and sisters in traditional households?
How will the Mormon Church and any other religion who are supportive of prop 8 answer to our situation 10, 20 or 50 years from now? Latter-day Saints (and other Christians) need to look outside of their dogmatic boxes at other people’s lives and start seeing people not as they see them through their dogmatic lenses but as these people’s lives really are. This dialogue is very good and in the long run I think it (over all) will be helpful to move us forward in ways that can be very healing and positive for as Joseph Smith, Jr. said “God is far more liberal in His views and boundless in His mercies and blessings than we are ready to believe or receive.” If California prop 8 fails it can begin to open the door for the eventual revelation that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so desperately needs regarding its gay and lesbian membership and also open the door to gay and lesbian Latter-day Saint legacy that has interwoven through the past yet been almost completely ignored for over 150 years. There are thousands of gay and lesbian Mormons (some of them famous) in history that most Mormons have absolutely no clue about.

Benjamin Clark, thank you for your words, and for clarifying so many questions. It is so good to hear intelligent words about a subject that continually gets battered here on beliefnet, and other places.

Well said, Benjamin Clark.

The sign of large amounts of homosexuals being “sent to the earth’ does not mean they are being sent from God especially according to the Bible it has an totally different meaning.

No name,
“I’m not denying anyone a right I am staying consistent with my beliefs”
But what about OUR beliefs? Why do your ‘religious’ tenets trump ours? Isn’t there freedom of religion in America anymore?
Of course you’re denying others a right, insomuch as betterosexuals have the right to marry the person of their mutual choosing, and insomuch as the CA SC found that equal treatment before the law means gay citzens have exactly the same rights. They’re freedoms, or liberties, really, but America USED to pride itself on being the land of the free. The Constitution used to ‘guarantee’ the right to LIBERTY and the right to the pursuit of happiness.
Whatever DID happen to justice for ALL? When did it get changed to justice for some – namely the str8s?

EX-Pentecostal, what happened to ‘justice for all’ you ask the far right people. What happened is that they put the Bible that they worship ahead of the country they live, work, and pray in. They don’t like government, remember? It absolves them from having to think, and feel, except what they want to. The laws of our country are not important to them, even though the Good Book tells us that the laws of men are to be obeyed.

That’s charming H22 but not factual. In actuality the participants government that has brought America to this level of freedom is Christian those who have die on the fields of battle to preserve this great country are for the most part Christian I know because I’ve been there. We don’t like government according to your misinformation when in fact we are in government and have paved the way for others to be free to be involved. Concerning the laws of this country most of them come from the Bible from seven year jubilee to the Thous shalt nots. Even if folk like you fight to get the “Good Book” out of our government it still has rich history from courtrooms to Congress and it is that history that has brought us to here where despite what we say we have the right to say it. The trick is to be courteous, truthful and civil regardless to differences.

should be “the participants in government”

Cknuck do not presume to lecture me about religion or U.S.A. You have many years of living to go before you should do this. All kinds of religious people have brought us to where we are, not just Christians. As far as veterans fighting now and in the past, my family and my husband and friends have been there and done that. What I said to ex-pentecostal was in reference to what he said, and it is very truthful. Sorry you found it uncourteous, untruthful, and uncivil. I find your comments just as unkind it seems. I love the Bible, but I don’t worship it. I worship God.

I rarely presume and never lecture unless I get paid, I do operate in facts, can you name me five presidents of other religions?

Please people. Mormons, catholics, evangelists, etc are all right. Gay marriage should not be allowed. The gay community gets all up in arms because they just want to be different and are proud of it. If you ask me people that turn gay are just looking to be accepted by someone.

Saking of things “not factual” …
“the participants [in] government that has brought America to this level of freedom is Christian”
No, ck, not all them were or are. Bear much false witness? (Hint:It’s on of the “thou shalt nots”.) And, if I recall correctly, America celebrates freeom of religion, so it wouldn’t/shouldn’t matter.
“those who have die on the fields of battle to preserve this great country are for the most part Christian”
Again, “not factual” (and not even “charming” because of the false nature of the statement). And, AGAIN, it’s not supposed to matter in a country that prides itself on having freedom of religion.
“have paved the way for others to be free to be involved”
Just not the gays, eh?
You insist on NOT answering the question – What of the ‘beliefs’ of others who are NOT of YOUR (presumably “Christian”) faith – or of no faith at all?
America is not (yet) a theocracy.
“I do operate in facts”
Sorry, we n’t see much evidence of that.
“can you name me five presidents of other religions?”
What the heck does THAT have to do with a discussion on equality? Please stick to the topic.
antisin,
“Gay marriage should not be allowed.”
Please tell us why not, since all citizens are suppoed to be treated equally before the law.
“The gay community gets all up in arms because they just want to be different and are proud of it.”
It isn’t a question of ‘wanting to be different’; we ARE different (and that’s nothing to be ashamed of). And differences aren’t supposed to matter in a land that prides itself on “LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL”, where ALL citizens are to be treated equally before the law.
“If you ask me people that turn gay are just looking to be accepted by someone.”
Um, most of us already ARE ‘accepted’ – by our friends and families and faith communities and neighbours and loved ones. What we ARE seeking is what is promised in the Constitution – again, since you don’t see to be aware of it (like ck), that’s equal treatment before the law. Nothing more, less or other than what you bettterosexuals already have.

“If you ask me people that turn gay are just looking to be accepted by someone.” antisin
People don’t “turn gay”. Maybe they turn into Democrates, or Repubicans or Methodists or Catholics or whatever, but they don’t all of a sudden decide to “be gay”. I know that re-covering ex-P. can certainly explain it better than I can, but I just couldn’t let that statement go. I haven’t figured out why folks can’t accept that it makes no difference who someone loves and wants to be with. It is no one elses business, and using a “good book” to call the shots is ridiculous. That represents only one of a large variety of religions in this country and using it or any other “good book” to tell people they can’t marry isn’t legal, IMO.
All people of this country are entitled to the SAME rights…marriage, voting, work and everything else that this country guarantees.

ex; The constitution was never framed to support homosexual marriage I would love to see you explain that thinking to the framers, its funny that you could think you could float it pass us. Equal treatment is one man one woman marriage anything else is simply that something else, and if we the people are going to support aomething else then why stop at homosexual marriage why not group. What facts did you miss? You mean facts not pertaining to our country’s Christian heritage
You mean facts not pertaining to Biblical truths
You mean fact not pertaining to nonproductive homosexuality
You mean facts not pertaining to God’s design for marriage
You mean facts not pertaining to if you change marriage for one group you have to change it for all special interest groups.
You mean facts not pertaining to the fact there is no homosexual gene
You mean facts not pertaining to the fact people claim kids are born homosexual there is no concrete proof of such statements

Homosexuality is a gross anhilation of the sacredness of families who are composed through the viability of a man and a woman. I call on all grandparents, parents and children to protect the santctity of a marriage which is between and man and a woman. Our families have been decimated over the past 40 years, isn’t time that we stand our ground unitied in a great cause to uphold that which is right and true. Why are we allowing these influences to destroy our families?

We are born gay. If people would look at how nature is already designed maybe they would see that animals instinct fully are with the same sex with the same percentage as humans. Dolphins actually have the highest rate.
Do your homework it is not a choice to be GAY

The Bible thumpers need to get off their need to think that just because they think being a homosexual is against the Bible and JC and all that other stuff, and stop worrying about OTHER PEOPLE’S BUSINESS. Sad really, that they think who someone loves and wants to spend their life with has anything to do with them. As if heterosexual marriages are the perfect example of correctness! Divorce rates anyone? There is a lot more to marriage than procreation. I really don’t think with the population of the world as it is, that earth is going to run out of people.

ex; The constitution was never framed to support homosexual marriage
Neither was it framed to support marriage for black people or even, gasp, interracial couples. Your point?
Times change. Morals change. Laws change. Deal with it or society has to wait until you die to move forward.

That is a trite and tired excuse, the heritage of Black people or interracial marriages have no resemblance to homosexuality at all. Blacks are a race of people racial and sexual are different, interracial marriage still one man one woman and it is racial. Racial is in the word Interracial and sexual is in the word homosexual. It is without honor to try to rob Blacks of their heritage and a slap in the face to compare our struggles to homosexuality and it means you have no merit of your own and are just borrowers.

Souza: You really need to do your own homework. The principal expert on the issue of whether or not one is “born gay” is Dr. Dean Hamer, himself a gay man. He authored and carried out the study that ostensibly suggested a link. You might want to google his work.
Newsflash: He himself declared that the study is not definitive. Yet so many people have made the leap from step 1 to step 4.
People are free to choose their behaviors. That includes participation in homosexual activity. And I probably don’t need to remind you what the Bible says about how God feels about homosexual activity.
Parenthetically, I’m LDS. While I’m gratified that we were not totally alone in this fight against Prop 8, we still constantly look over our shoulders at those who enjoy our focus and principles on one hand, then seem to enjoy exercising religious bigotry against us on the other. We can only hope that the time will come that we can truly unite. I hope it doesn’t take another 9/11 to help us.

Sorry … I meant we weren’t alone in this fight FOR Prop 8.

Well, the bible thumpers are probably happy…they’ve managed, temporarily anyhow, to stop those gay folks from being able to get married. Hope they’re pleased now that they have deprived fellow citizens of a fundamental privilage…being happy and being able to express it through marriage. Enjoy it while it last, thunpers, because the fight for equality isn’t over yet.

No one is safe from criticism. But the measure of the person is their commitment to their belief system. Even “Focus on the Family”
is caught in this web of ridicule. HELLO…the issue is not the money raised. It is the FAMILY. The reason why Marriage is between a Man and a Woman is to focus on the emotional needs of the children. It also is the focus on Men and Women being responsible for their choices. Marriage is not a right that any group that claims it is a minority, must be given. It is a responsibility granted with the intent that society intends to be committed to raise children with strong morals, with integrity. Marriage was not invented by man. Men invent “living-together-without-marrying.” And why? To avoid commitment. To avoid responsibility. To pursue self!
Having a family and being loyal to your husband, your wife and your children is the most selfless act a human being can commit to.
Notice that groups who support strong family values are the first targets in this fight to legalize marriage for anyone who claims it is their right. Think about it. No one is keeping anyone from living with whoever they please. Claiming marriage is your right, is not subject to redefinition of the term, the responsibility or the institution. Rather than picket others who attempt to strengthen the family, return to your homes and live peacefully in a country that grants you more rights than any other in the world.

Yeah, it took personal. Shame on you! What a white pale face you are! You have no grace. Ha…? It is a shame on you. I pray to God to remove the Mormon Church. What if God has sent angels and you did not know? Remember, how terrible is the great judgement of God will the Mormons receive in the same way they have received secret agent of God. Aha. Well, God is good. God is very angry with America and with the Mormons. If God comes back, he will rebuke Monson and will be coming angry like Moses. God will require him of me and I will not come back and let’s see how the anger of God rise against the Mormon Church. I will be in great silence and never forgive the church.