It is so good to read that there are many Catholics who are thinking for themselves and realize that the church has no business telling them that if a candidate is pro-choice, they shouldn’t vote for that candidate. They are smart enough to realize that candidates usually run on more than one issue! Naturally the Archbishop from Denver is not a happy camper. He and other church leaders don’t like their authority questioned. Life’s tough…especially when the sheep don’t stay in line. )

Well put, ps.

Yes, yes and very good. I have one point to raise which appears to be missing – the sexual abuse of children and adults – something more important perhaps than all the rest for the clergy abuse issue cannot be tackled without at the same time tackling the sexual abuse issue. Now that is something that is important to not only Catholics of all persuasions but to the entire society and yet not a peep, not a murmer from either candidate on this topic.

I almost feel sorry for “progressives” in the Catholic Church. Abortion is absolutely proscribed in the ecumenical Christian tradition because it is rightly seen as murder, and they know it, but they desperately want to vote for a candidate (namely, Obama) who is left-wing on both economic and intermational issues–and also happens to be the MOST “pro-choice” member of the US Senate. (I think there’s a point where a person crosses over from “pro-choice” to “pro-abortion,” and Obama crossed that line a long time ago.)There was a time when there was nothing unusual about being a left-wing Democrat and “pro-life,” but starting with Walter Mondale, anti-abortion people have been persecuted with zeal by the national Democratic Party. (Of course, Rahm Emanuel strategically ran a few to pick up pro-life Republican seats in the 2006 election, knowing they’d be powerless in the Democratic caucus.)
The following position is FAR from progessive: “Progressives say they now have a persuasive contribution: that addressing the root causes of abortion, such as poverty, can be more effective in the short term than working to criminalize the procedure.” First, there’s nothing new about this. It’s the same old nonsense repeated by the Clinton’s, etc. Second, it’s a very “conservative” argument, and is basically status-quoism. For instance, Civil Rights legislations shouldn’t have been passed in the 1960s. Instead, we should have worked on the root causes of Southern racism: poverty, ignorance, hurt feeling left over from the Civil War, etc. Someday, once these root causes of seg were dealt with, blacks would have rights, but blacks today would just have to continue being lynched. Third, while I’m sure that some poor women get abortions, the overwhelming majority of women I’ve known who’ve gotten abortions (and I’ve known MANY)have been solidly middle-class–at least. They’ve gotten abortions because they were “fooling around” (either unmarried or married) and didn’t want to deal with the consequences–a child.

John B., where is the peep from the leaders of the sheep in the NEA. The “teachers” union? It seems many, more teachers than cleregy, want to practice what they preach in their “sex” ed. classes. These malcontents need to place a EX, in front of Knights!

John B.
If you are going to criticize the Catholic clergy – why stop there? Why withhold your criticism of the teachers in the public schools, where child sexual abuse is way, way higher than in the Catholic Church, and it is publicly endorsed by the teachers unions, who encourage the administrators to shuffle these creeps around instead of getting them out of the lime light? Why withhold your criticism of Protestant Churches, where the sex abuse is twice what it is in the Catholic Church, yet generally unreported? Why withhold criticism of Judaism, which has a sex abuse rate on a par with the Protestants? I can tell you why: it is still kosher to be a bigot as long as it is against Catholicism. That’s OK – we understand. We’ll be praying for your conversion and the salvation of your soul.

And what will these folks be for after the election? Or better still, what were they for before this election. Being noticed has a way of changing people!

Starting from the bottom:
Denise you make a lot of charges with no documentation. Some of them may or may not be correct but to just throw them on the wall to see what sticks is just like the McCain campaign.
Arnie I’m not sure what it is you are charging.
PT, long time no see. The consequences of “fooling around” are quite often not a child, depending on knowledge, availability of contraception and sometimes luck. “Fooling around” is pretty fundamental to marriage and indeed to a lot of relationships. The tragedy is when people don’t want or can’t afford a child and whatever they are doing to prevent pregnancy doesn’t work. People have worked for millennia to disconnect “fooling around” from having a child and fortunately they mostly have, given good information and contraception.
Certainly we need to work to get people the knowledge and contraception they need to prevent that as much as possible; surely we agree on that. But when that turns out to not work and she or they decide to not put in nine months bearing a child they won’t keep, it becomes important to have abortion available as soon as possible so the zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus will be as undeveloped as possible when it’s aborted.
So to say “They’ve gotten abortions because they were “fooling around” (either unmarried or married) and didn’t want to deal with the consequences–a child.” is to try to make a sound-bite out of a complicated and complex situation. How Republican of you.

“But when that turns out to not work and she or they decide to not put in nine months bearing a child they won’t keep, it becomes important to have abortion available as soon as possible so the zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus will be as undeveloped as possible when it’s aborted”.
What would Jesus, who created that life, do?

“What would Jesus, who created that life, do?”
Well if you think “Jesus” controls the world like that then since it’s estimated over 30% of pregnancies end in miscarriages, I guess you’d decide 30% of the time Jesus would abort them.
Bringing up abortion when the economy is tanking and we’re in a stupid and misguided and counterproductive war and we face lots of other serious problems is just frivolous. In a sense that may be the point of these lay Catholics.

“Jesus, who created that life”
So Jesus scurries around creating human lives, eh? Does Jesus also create squirrels’ lives? Sparrows’ lives? Geckos’ lives? Mosquitoes’ lives? Just wondering.

DeniseL:
You made a lot of accusations…where do you get your information from?
elm:
“What would Jesus, who created that life,do?”
If Jesus created that life, is he going to raise it after it is born? Feed it, change it’s diapers, take it to the doctor…but before the birth, is he going to go through 9 months of pregancy? NO. Personally, I don’t think Jesus had anything to do with the “creation” of anything, in this case it was plain old sex. The decision to continue a pregnancy is up to the woman. She is the one who does all the physical work of carrying and giving birth to and raising (sometimes with the male who fathered it)it. I agree with nnmns, it is important to have abortion available ASAP so the zygote, blastocyst, embryo or fetus will be as undeveloped as possible when it is aborted. Personally I think most women should and do make up their minds before 4 months.

It seems to me this election the conservatives are finally getting what they want, which is basically the bishops telling people how to vote. I never thought I’d see that fear of anti-Catholic bigots materialize (that we’d be taking our orders from Rome) but here we are. And at that, I think these bishops who have already bankrupted their dioceses through litigation are about to get a great big fat tax bill tossed their way as they surrender their nonprofit status. Time to give Caesar what is Caesar’s.

It’s curious.
Statistics indicate (ref. e.g. NYT 11/11/07)that abortion rates are roughly the same in countries where abortion is illegal as in countries where it is legal. Where abortion is illegal, however, the maternal death rate is markedly higher.
It is important to distinguish the moral issue of abortion from the public policy issue of abortion. Prudent public policy takes actual results seriously. The Catholic bishops’ stand on abortion does not seem to do that.
It is as if the Catholic bishops are pro-the-idea-of-life, but it is not clear how concerned they are about actual people’s actual lives.
That’s disturbing.
BTW, check out http://www.at-conception.com for insight into the practical implications of the pro-life position.

I think it’s high time we consider removing the K of C from it’s tax exempt status and put it and all it’s holdings on the tax roles. They are getting too involved in politics to be the charitable organization that they were when they started out. As it is now, they are cheating the citizenry out of millions of dollars in taxes. If you agree, please contact me at JamesVBrunner@aol.com to get the ball rolling. We have many, many people who think the same, especially in California. Petitions are being printed as we speak. We’ll see if they are as capable defending a corrupt tax policy benefitting them as they are playing carpetbagger, and trying to influence California elections.

These so-called Knights in-name-only haven’t any idea, along with the majority
of those who commented here, what our Church stands for. Like Judas despair will
eventually overcome them or perhaps, and hopefully, a conversion. The Knights are
pro-life not pro-death or pro-choice to kill. I hope you all know you’re on the
side of the Devil……

“I hope you know you’re on the side of the Devil…” Ron
Oh please! Because a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy for more reasons than can be written here, but rape, incest, poverty, being a child (12, 13 to 18 perhaps), for starters, that puts them and those who are pro-choice, in league with the “devil.” That’s a crock of BS. As I don’t think there is a “devil”, that is the least of my concerns. My concern would be for the women having to face that decision, not what some pope in his Ivory tower (the Vatican) thinks ought to be done. He and previous popes have never carried a child to term and given birth, or had to feed and clothe it. Nor have they had to wonder HOW they were going to feed it, and keep it safe. Nor have they (as far as we know)been raped and gotten pregnant, or concieved through incestuous circumstances. So don’t preach about how the church is concerned about the group of cells that aren’t viable outside the womb. It is always the woman that has the decision of what to do with HER body…not any man.
What your church stands for? Having as many children as possible whether or not they can be fed and clothed, is pushed, (in poverty stricken countries as well as developed countries), no birth control (except the “natural method”), not worrying whether the mother’s life is in danger if she gives birth, or whether a child is horribly malformed to live a short life in pain…that is part of what I understand the RCC stands for, at least when it comes to procreation.
Solutions to abortion? The RCC frowns on “artificial” birth control, but it should be taught anyhow, as well as personal responsibility for ones’ body, and sex education starting at least by 5th grade in schools. Preferably parents would teach their children these things but many times they don’t and then are surprised when the 13,14, 15, 16, 17 year old girl comes home pregnant. Should the child have a child? That is up to the child and her parents, but the option should be for termination, legal and safe. But certainly I feel that birth control (condoms for one) would stop STD’s and pregnancies, thus abortions would lessen.

Chill out pagansister. Why are you so upset if you don’t believe in the
devil? At 21 days before a women even knows she’s pregnant, there is a
heartbeat of a newly conceived human life. Of course, the Church is con-
cerned with women who have been exploited by the abortion choice. That’s
why there is so much outreach to post-abortive women. As for the reasons
for abortion 97% do not involve rape incest or the life of the mother. So
if we could agree to eliminate the majority I’m on your side. Of course,\
the Church must do a better job of helping those who are having unintended
pregnancies, I agree…As for the myth of better birth control, 30 years
have given us more STD’s, pregnancies, and more messed up lives because
of the lose of self-esteem. Abstinence and NFP (natural methods inside
marriage) are proven overwhelmingly successful. God’s laws make alot
of sense considering the mess this culture is in. Married couples who
practice NFP have only a 5% divorce rate compared to 50% of the general
population. And teens who practice abstinence have a better future. So
that’s my take. If I offended you pagansister, I apologize. I’ll be
praying for you…God bless….

Ron:
Most certainly not offended. I spent 10 years teaching in a Catholic school,in kindergarten, until I retired. Great 10 years, great kids, as well as a caring and dedicated group of teachers. I was one of 2 non-Catholic teachers in the school. No nuns. Lots of Mass time racked up.
I agree the ideal is abstinence, but the reality shows that doesn’t always work out. STD’s are best prevented by condoms…something the RCC doesn’t approve of. Of course if the condoms are helping to prevent STD’s,they are also stopping a pregnancy. As to the natural method (used in marriage)I’d think that would certainly put a stop to spontaneity in that marriage.
I also understand that there is a heartbeat at an early stage in pregnancy, but if indeed those cells were “born” they’d die, as living outside at that stage and many after that are still not viable.
As to the non- belief in an evil dude, AKA the Devil. I find it interesting that there is supposed to be a character needed to scare folks into being “good”.
Women aren’t exploited by the abortion choice. No woman goes into it without painful, hard, serious thought. For those that have no other choice…then as I mentioned above, there should always be a safe place to go for the procedure. Of the women I know who had to go through it, none regreted it. It was the solution at the time, and had to be done. A couple were “family.”

Interesting discussion but again we’ll have to disagree. Condoms have been
a failure. How many strains of STD’s thirty years ago? 5 or 6? Now over 50!
And as someone who is involved with women/girls experiencing problem
pregnancies, over three quarters are using some sort of birth control,
and a big percentage end up pregnant. Abstinence is having phemominal results.
As for NFP you’d be surprised how fulfilled couples are who are using this
method. Actually, studies have shown exactly that.
Viability has nothing to do with whether someone is a human life. Whether
inside or outside the womb life is a continuum. But life begins at
conception and therefore must be respected and protected. What about
people who are disabled or with dementia? Or people who cannot take care
of themselves? All life no matter what their circumstance deserve our
love and protection.
Finally, I’ve never met a women who didn’t regret her abortion. And I’d argue
that it’s “never” safe for the child who is aborted. Denial must be dealt with.
And there are numerous organizations which help women deal with this
unfortunate decision….Moral relativists agree that there is no
right and wrong, good or evil. But if you read the Bible Jesus makes
numerous references to the Devil. Don’t mean to scare people, but “Truth”
has a funny way of getting in the way…

Ron, my opinion of the Bible is that it is a piece of literature, makes for a good read…full of sex, violence, stories of 100 year old women having babies, men sleeping with their servants (with their wive’s approval,) plagues, miracles, betrayals, and, of course, a man in the NT called Jesus, etc. The devil is another part of the book. Must have a bad guy, after all. The OT and NT have their share of “evil” folks. The book which many find a guide, has been translated, and rewritten so many times, complete with the contradictions it probably had originally, I don’t see how it could possibly be accurate. Does have some pretty passages, and in the King James version, it sounds beautiful read aloud.
Am still voting for condoms…better than nothing, and as I said above, of course abstinence is preferable. However if a condom stops one person from getting an STD, that makes them worth having in a guys wallet. (or womans purse).
You mentioned you worked with girls/women who have “problem” pregnancies, and said that 3/4 of them are using birth control, and a large percentage end up pregnant. It’s called HOW they use the birth control. Forgetting the pill, forgetting the condom, etc. You obviously won’t see the ones who used the birth control properly.
I disagree that life begins the minute the sperm meets the egg. We won’t agree on that or that abortion is sinful, or that all women regret their decision. For an unwanted pregnancy, a woman should have all options, including a safe termination.
Yes, life deserves our protection…and those things you mentioned, disabled, dementia etc. are not living in a womb…they have been born.
Ron, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, the Bible is rampant with people engaging in “sin” that’s why Jesus came
to save us from our sins…Abstinence works better and if followed by
society we wouldn’t have some many diseases and problems….I agree, the
women who practice “safe sin” accurately wouldn’t need a pregnancy test
but might need to confess someday…..Every child is wanted by God and
there is no such thing as a “safe termination”. Just listen or read
those words…safe termination…safe way to put an end to a human life..
Finally, your value depends on your residency? What’s next your race,
age, disability, etc…I believe we’ve been there done that before…
Useless eaters come to mind….Yes, we’ll agree to disagree….

Ron, you mentioned that “Every child is wanted by God…”. With all due respect, your God doesn’t have to take care of or feed or clothe those children who are born into horrible situations. Not all women will seek you or your groups help. Thus, they will have an abortion and as I said above,IMO, are entitled to a medically safe one. Yes, I know you disagree.
Are there any circumstances where you find an abortion is acceptable? Incest, rape for example? Life of the mother in danger?
OK, guess I’m really done this time.

What !
I never understood.. as a former pagan how abortion was ” right”. I firmly belived the Gardners ” Witches Bible Complete” was correct.
It is against nature to abort your child. Suffer the loss, if its the Will. Even in a pagan perspective.. its the will of the powers if the child does not survive. How dare you take that into your own hands to selfishly remove your suffering. the triple godess.. Madien Mother Crone.. Crone= acceptance of Death.. as it is part of LIFE.
As a reformed Catholic.. and a mother of a child with Special Needs.. and an NFP practitioner I am APPALLED by this crap. This group is wart on the nose of the KOC and I PRAY that you will be removed from the KOC. You do not deserve to be Knights of Anything.
Shame on Knights for Obama. Go Palin.. GO WOMAN VP.. GO SPECIAL NEEDS KIDS!

Pagansister…Yes, I think it’s time to end this very interesting discussion.
I hope you’ve gotten as much out of this as me. Two final thoughts, yes,
there are some children who are born into horrible situations, and I believe
that’s why God put us here, to help them, we are His hands and feet. And
knowing people who were conceived in rape I could never imagine life without
them. So I don’t believe in abortion, even when the mother’s life is in
jeopardy, I believe we can try and save both…Please pray for me, I will
you. And thanks again for this enlightened colloquy. Again, if there is
anything I said which offended you, it was not my intention…God bless..

Ron:
Yes, I have enjoyed the exchange and nothing you have said has offended me. I have deep respect for you and your opinions and beliefs. You said you work with girls/women who have, as you put it, problem pregnancies. I respect that and know that is appreciated by those you help. Termination should never be the only option. Life is precious, and if I’ve given you the impression that I don’t appreciate that, it is a false impression.
Until the next time we meet on these boards, I wish you the best.
Blessed Be

Training with Planned Parenthood
In the early 70s, when the abortion frenzy was first taking shape within sectors of my Church, I decided, as a committed Christian, that talk was cheap and that it was time for me to take action. Having been trained in Catholic Action, I decided to infiltrate the system and to produce change from the inside. In my mind, the Planned Parenthood Federation was the archvillain. I saw this group as responsible for promoting cheap and easy abortions as part of their women’s rights agenda. Hence, by way of bringing a religious leaven to this group, I decided to act as a volunteer abortion counselor within the very structures where women were flocking to decide the future of the life in their wombs.
Planned Parenthood provided me with the required four two-hour sessions of training. During this period, no one asked me anything regarding my religious affiliation or invited me to explore my gut feelings regarding abortion. At first I was puzzled by this. But then it became clear that Planned Parenthood was not interested in what I thought or felt; rather, they were focused on whether I was capable of empathetically entering into the mind and heart of a woman coming to me for counseling who was traumatized by “her” unexpected pregnancy.
Next I discovered that I had misjudged Planned Parenthood for “advocating” (even pushing) abortions. Again and again, my trainers enforced the idea that the decision belonged to the would-be mother. I was trained how to assist women whose only difficulty was overcoming the shame and the hesitancy of telling their boyfriends and their parents that they were pregnant. Others needed help because they were in the morass of not knowing who the father was. Still others were unsure whether, for the sake of their child, they could commit themselves to a man whom they judged to be a bad father. Gradually, I came to discover that Planned Parenthood was bent upon respecting the whole panorama of emotional, social, economic, religious, and institutional aspects of deciding how to respond to an unplanned pregnancy. My trainer kept insisting that my task was to allow the would-be mother to accurately assess her “inner resources” and her own “ethical intuitions” in the face of her own condition and that of her unborn child. Even those coming in with a firm commitment to having an abortion, my trainer insisted, needed to be gentle helped to tell their story of how they became pregnant and how they arrived at their choice of abortion. Planned Parenthood knew that a hasty and unreflective decision could later cause much suffering to all concerned. Making a safe place for women to tell their stories was at the heart of what my trainer expected of me.
Then my practice as a counselor began. I was surprised and humbled to have women half my age or twice my age telling me their deepest secrets, and I was very much aware that they were telling me this as a man. Every case was absolutely unique. A 16-year-old got drunk at a house party and decided to lose her virginity in the bedroom with, as she said, “a guy that I didn’t even like.” An older woman near menopause was devastated by a pregnancy at a time in her life when she was physically exhausted by raising four girls and was counting the days until they were all “out of the house.” Each of these women made a slow and painful decision. In the end, both decided to accept the new life growing in their wombs and to rely upon their inner resources to make the best of a less-than-ideal situation.
The Drama Surrounding Amy’s Pregnancy
Then an attractive women of 28 whom I shall call Amy came to see me. She told me that she was two months pregnant. A flood of tears followed. She kept berating herself saying, “How could I have been so stupid.” Gradually her whole story poured out. She had married her high school sweetheart immediately following graduation. Kevin, their first and only child, was conceived a few months later. Then, unexpectedly, her husband began drinking more. Verbal and then physical abuse followed.
He openly boasted of having sex with other women. After the birth, little changed. He seemingly resented all the time and attention I gave to Kevin. When the beatings continued, I gradually got the courage to escape. I started my life over in another city since no one in my family would believe that the beatings were unprovoked. The folks in a local Catholic Church took me under their wing. They became my real family. First, they found me a place in public housing and helped me get on welfare. Then, they helped me with tuition at a community college. Just as I was completing my associate degree, Kevin started in kindergarten, and I got my first job as secretary to the Dean at the local Catholic seminary. I was riding on cloud nine. I rented a small home near the seminary so I could walk to work. I got off welfare. Small groups of seminarians would often visit me after supper and play with Kevin. Everything was perfect.
Then a heaving rush of tears and repeated laments, “How could I have been so stupid,” followed. I kept quiet. From experience, I knew full well that she would continue in her own due time. Anything I might say would just slow down the flow of grief and distract her from the thread of her story.
Then I met Frank, a first-year seminarian. He was a real fine gentleman, and he had a hundred ways of making Kevin laugh. Frank, used to stay on a bit after the other seminarians went back to study. Innocent hugs led to innocent kisses. Frank was so innocent . . . I mean inexperienced. He never had a girlfriend to call his own, so he kind of pretended that I was “his girl.” I told myself that I was doing this for his sake. But I was lonely and finding a man who was gentle and kind–so different from all the other men I have known -was a surprise and a joy. I should have known that I was playing with fire.
More heartbreaking tears. Then she slowly told me of that “tender night” they had their first experience of sex together. “Frank gave no thought to using a condom. Besides, I felt I was in the infertile part of my cycle. But I was sadly mistaken.”
So what were Amy’s options? As she saw them, they were as follows: (a) Tell Frank and possibly ruin his life and his calling as a priest. (b) Tell Frank the child belongs to another man and bear the weight of the punishment for fornication that was sure to come:
At the seminary, they’d fire me at the drop of a hat. Then I’d have to move away. Kevin would be heartbroken at losing the only family he ever had. Then, when the baby came, I’d be unable to work and be back on welfare, trying to put my life together so that I could maybe rise up again somewhere down the line.
In the end, she decided to tell Frank that what they did was wrong and that he must never come over again. She decided to have an abortion without telling anyone. But then a new struggle ensued: “Could God ever forgive me if I killed the life in my womb?”
Amy felt trapped. There were no happy solutions. Every choice she might make was strewn with dangers for all concerned. Slowly and tearfully, Amy decided to go ahead with an abortion “in order to protect the life that I’ve made for Kevin and to keep the respect of my adopted family at my church.” As for God, she felt that “somehow God knows how much I have suffered already and, being a kind Father, he wouldn’t want Kevin and me to suffer any more.” As for Frank, Amy decided that she had been a “damn fool” and that, in the future, she would never again get involved with any man, and surely not a seminarian.
The Breakdown of my Moral Superiority
Witnessing women like Amy broke down my sense of moral superiority. She came to me confessing her sins, resolving to amend her life, and asking God for forgiveness. I honestly don’t know whether Amy felt at peace with herself and her God after her abortion. She never came back. I have no doubts, however, that she confessed her sin to a priest with the same tears and anguish that she had shown me. I can’t say, in all honesty, whether she made the best possible choice. All I can say is that, in fear and trembling, she made her choice. In the end, I can only be certain that she was right about God being “a kind Father.”
After many hours of reflecting upon Amy, I began to realize that the official Church is anything but a kind father. The official Church has no heart for listening to and making a safe place for listening to women like Amy. The official Church offers moral absolutes and moral condemnations -positions which, I am ashamed to say, I once cherished myself because they confirmed my need for absolutes and gave me a sense of moral superiority. My so-called moral superiority, however, was a terrible sham -an affront to God and to the women like Amy whom I imagined that I was somehow appointed to guide. Following my stint at Planned Parenthood, my blinders were gone. In fact, I saw clearly that if the truth had come out, the seminary Rector would have immediately fired Amy sending her into oblivion. Frank, meanwhile, would have been privately shamed, given a year of probation, and then sent on to be ordained. In the end, therefore, I recognized the awful truth that the moral climate within the seminary would assure that men guilty of fornication were secretly protected while the guilty women were shunned and made to suffer all the public consequences. Even before I began to explore the moral underpinnings of the Church’s position on abortion, therefore, I had to acknowledge that I discovered that there had been a moral perversion in my heart and in my Church.
Aaron

I oppose abortion. A culture of life is moral and right. The problem with the current right-to-life approach is that there is no groundwork being laid for a successful repeal of Roe v Wade. It is not about a political or legal solution, it is a cultural transition.
The better way to move the culture is to put resources into programs that take care of humans. We need overwhelming finanacial support for social services to include care institutions for unwanted children. Once the culture is caring for all human life there will be room to end the termination of any human life.
Arguing about the strategic divisive talking points like “who’s right trumps another” or “when human life begins” is participating in the culture of death.
Division is tribal, life is about love. Love is compromise and effort.

Aaron:
THANK YOU for sharing the story about your time with Planned Parenthood, Amy’s story and your subsequent discovery of the RCC’s attitude. Very informative, and well told.
Being pro-choice I am glad to know that Planned Parenthood has such caring counselors who let the women make up their own minds about whether to terminate or not. I’ve never thought that PP would “push” a woman to do so, as the pro-life folks would have people believe.

“Once the culture is caring for all human life there will be room to end the termination of any human life.” PCrow
Does that include presidents who invade countries for no reason, getting their men and women soldiers killed as well as innocent women and children?
Women have known how to terminate a pregnancy since we entered human form, PCrow. I’m all for taking care of humans, but somehow building orphanages to take care of all the unwanted babies doesn’t seem to be an answer to anything. Easy access to birth control, teaching sex education, self control, etc. is part of the solution. However when all that doesn’t work, and an unwanted pregnancy happens, access to a clean abortion should be an option. Roe V. Wade needs to stay the law.

“Does that include presidents who invade countries for no reason, getting their men and women soldiers killed as well as innocent women and children?”
What a croc! Evidence please?
Mike Crist
Torrance, CA

Fighting Moral evil is NEVER black and white. There will always be wiggle room for niggling doubts and arguments against eradication of the evil in question. How else would Satan work? Make no mistake my friends, codifying infanticide within the structures of our law is pure evil. Every sad story in the world won’t change that.
Sadly, I believe the time for debating this is now over. Every soul on either side of this debate with a heart yearning for God will understand soon enough the mistake that’s been made. May God have mercy on us as we reap the rewards of what we’ve sown.
Pray one and all