Certainly hope no on gets killed in this years event. Interesting symboic ceremony. Interesting that 3 religions (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) all celebrate the same event…Abraham and his willingness to do God’s bidding…to sacrafice his son. If all religions would just realize their common beliefs and respect them, perhaps there wouldn’t be so much distrust.

‘If all religions would just realize their common beliefs and respect them, perhaps there wouldn’t be so much distrust.’
I agree whole-heartedly, pagansis. Not just people of different religions, but all people of good will. Were we to engage in respectful dialogue and find common ground to build upon, there’s no telling how far we could go in our quest to build a more meaningful society. One of the Vatican II documents titled ‘NOSTRA AETATE’ illuminates in so many words your point on understanding one another.
“Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Nice post Tom.
Confessoressa also rejects nothing that is true and holy in the Catholic Church. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men

I often think that religion is like genetics – we have far more in common than we do making us different. It is good and wise to not simply embrace these differences, but also to learn from them. As one of my seminary professors said about sermons – you can make whatever theological point you want as many times as you choose, but you better not use the same story too often. It is the stories that bind us and inform us. We need to listen to the subtle shadings and different meanings we invest in the stories we share.
I pray that the Haj be safe for all the pilgrims and their hosts, and that they return home infused not with religious pride, but with deepened faith and assurance of God’s loving presence.

I’m also for a safe and sane Haj. But as for sacrificing your child because of voices in your head, modern jurisprudence has the right answer for that. And we might all be a lot better off if religions that actually think that was a good idea didn’t have such influence.

I agree, nmnns. The religion of Planned Parenthood has way too much influence.

The vast majority of adherents to the three Abramic, Monotheistic faiths would agree that God telling Abram to sacrifice Isaac (Ismael in Islam) was merely a test of faith, and that Abram was rewarded for putting the will of God above the life of his son. Therefore, none of the three aforementioned religions thought that child sacrifice was a good idea. All that leaves left is Aztecs (no longer practicing), Baal worshippers (also no longer practicing), islanders who threw virgins into volcanoes (hopefully no longer practicing!) and Planned Parenthood and other like affiliates (unfortunately still practicing) and very influential.

There is no proof for when life begins; it is a judgement call and I think the best person to make that call is the person in whom that question of life dwells. Planned Parenthood would like to give women the care to have or terminate their pregnancy, involving no implication of sacrifice on their part. I don’t mind you having your beliefs but please, have the decency to not force them on others unless you can come up with something other than an age old book as evidence.

Tom, Abe was and is praised for his insane decision. It’s good he didn’t carry it out but bad he decided to do it. And he’s a bad example for everyone. An actual wise god, had there been one, could have thought of any number of better tests of faith, for instance cutting off part of his own body.
As for your inane comparison to Planned Parenthood, I doubt very much anyone at PP has ever encouraged anyone to sacrifice a child. You are thinking of fetuses and embryos, not children. They are different in a lot of ways.

Tom,
your Biblical skills are a problem. Ishmael and Isaac are two different people, half brothers, but both sons of Abraham. Ishamel is the son of Hagar the handmaid, Isaac is the son of Sarah. The place of sacrifice is different too. Ishamel was to be sacrificed at a site near Mecca, Isaac was to sacrificed on Mt Moriah, on the rock called Zion (what later became the foundation for the Temple). Abraham was the father to both boys, and plays a significant role in both Torah and Quran.
As to the other examples, I am not so sure you have the religious rituals assigned to the right people. Some of this seems to be popular myth and less anthropolgical.
All that being said, I think Planned Parenthood has done far more good than you imagine. They work with the women, they do not dictate policy. Their framework is built around caring for the woman. This is done through sexual education and awareness training. This does F-A-R more to prevent unwanted pregnancies and their attendant complications than any other program.
I suggest you do some work on your own and learn about scrptures, other cultures, and what agencies like P.P. really do. Don’t believe what you read or see in the popular media, do the work yourself, cite your sources, and then defend your remarks.

Yes, Tom, looks like I’m joining a couple above who feel PP has done and continues to do far more good than it gets credit for. All the anti-choice folks do is jump on the fact that one of the MANY services done by that organization is clean, safe abortions. They do not encourage them, they OFFER them to a woman who feels that she has to do so…they have the women explain and talk about the decision, and offer alternatives. IF after all that the woman wants to continue with the procedure, then they respect that too. As has been said before by many…it is ultimately up the the individule woman, and absolutely no one else to either terminate or not.

Confessoressa: I wasn’t using any age-old book to force my beliefs on anyone, as I only offer my perspective on various subjects when I feel it is warranted. I was merely clarifying that none of the monotheistic religions advocate child sacrifice as nnmns alleged. The policy of PP is the closest thing I can come up with in regards to child sacrifice in my humble opinion.
nnmns: There are no abortions surgically performed on embryos, though sometimes they’re induced by chemical abortificients. The earliest abortions are performed at six weeks gestation and very rarely at that. Most won’t perform abortions until seven weeks gestation as technology better enables abortionists to locate the fetus then. Even so, the child in its fetal stage then has brain waves, facial movement, developing central nervous system, etc.
Jestrfyl:
I was merely implying that Muslims maintain Ishmael, not Isaac, to be the covenant child promised by Allah (or God) to Abram whom he was willing to sacrifice, and so his name was changed to Abraham (the Father of many nations). Sorry I wasn’t clearer. I’ll double-check the anthropology so I can better distinguish fact from ‘popular myth’.
As for PP, from my perspective their framework is built more around exploiting women as the local affiliate in my county has been sued repeatedly by women alleging the facility is less than forthcoming about health risks involved in the procedure and botched operations.
I’m rather well-versed in the scriptures, though I could use some more studying on other cultures as there are just so many hours in the day. I conversely think it would do you well to find out about PP from other sources, and research independent studies as well as those done by the Guttmacher institute, PP’s main research source to see how well PP policies really are at preventing unwanted pregnancies.
In regards to the latest media spat PP has been involved for many years in not reporting cases of statutory rape as required by law. This may be the least detrimental effect that PP has on society as a hole.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18IKmx6wsYk&feature=related
PS I find it a little curious that you never seem to take exception to comments made by one of our contemporary posters who regularly makes remarks condemning monotheism and Christianity in particular, yet you always seem to be at strife with Christians who have a more traditional, conservative approach to the faith. What gives?
‘…it is ultimately up the individual woman, and absolutely no one else to either terminate or not.’
I respectfully disagree, pagansis, as no one ever has the right to terminate the life of another innocent human being let alone their own child, and there’s plenty of practical and scientific evidence which would seem to validate the life of the unborn child. I do agree, however, that it isn’t merely a legal issue, but a social and economic one as well which needs to be addressed on many different levels.
One question, though: would you stand up for a woman’s right to choose to carry a child to term? Are you aware that most women polled feel pressured into abortion by boyfriends, parents, etc?
http://www.stopforcedabortions.org/forced.htm
What about the forced abortion policy in China where women don’t even get to choose to carry a second child to term? Shouldn’t they have the right to choose? If so, then how come Pres. Elect Obama, Cecil Richards, NARAL, NOW, or any other feminist organizations aren’t speaking up about it? The population density in China is 1/5 of that in Taiwan, and they don’t have a forced abortion policy.

Just imagine if China had not had a one-child policy. The world would be in a far bigger mess than it’s in now and that’s plenty big. I give China a lot of credit for facing their problem and making an unpopular choice.
“no one ever has the right to terminate the life of another innocent human being”
You must be strongly anti-war since wars are constantly causing the deaths of innocent human beings, not to mention fetuses, embryos, etc. And you must have made strong statements about the situation in Darfur, for instance. I’m just trying to remember it. No doubt you’ll join me in urging that the US get more involved in stopping that massacre.
Oh, and zygotes, blastocysts, embryos and fetuses aren’t children so “unborn child” is a misnomer.

Tom, the women in China aren’t being discussed. PP and women in this country are. However, of course I don’t agree with forced abortion…but unfortunately in China the government originally sought to be able to feed the people they had already, thus the situation. Whether that is still the case (too many people, not enough food) I don’t know.
As to whether I would stand up for a women’s right to carry to term? You had to ask? Yes, just as much as I stand up for a woman’s right to NOT carry to term…that’s why it is called “choice”. Yes, I am aware that SOME women are pressured by parents and boyfriends and I expect husbands. I stick by my ideas on PP. And I know you disagree with all terminations, and I respectfully disagree with you on that.
As to my ideas on monotheism and Christianity? I usually agree with the “contemporary” poster. I was raised in a Christian home, and have 2 very devout sisters. They know where I come from and I know where they come from…I’m the pagan(not a believer in a special JC, he was human and God) in the family, having left the “faith” at 17, as I always doubted what I was being taught. One sister worries about my “afterlife” and the other appreciates my spirituality and doesn’t worry about my “afterlife.” My sisters know I respect their beliefs and they mine. We love and care for each other, and have no problems. I have a hard time believing in something I can’t see or hear or that can be proven to exist…ie..a “Father” in a Heaven type place makes no sense to me.

No zygote, blastocyst, or embryo has ever been surgically aborted as I previously stated nnmns unless mycroscopic scalpels were used. You’ll have to more clearly define your criteria for childhood. I hope you don’t say someone outside the womb, as these are merely geographical semantics. I was three weeks premature, and firmly believe that any ‘fetus’ my age not born prematurely should have entailed the same rights as I even though they remained inside their mother’s womb.
I’m anti-war to a certain extent, in disagreement with the initiation of the current Iraqi war, though pulling out prematurely could end up in a blood bath with many more Iraqi’s dead given all the sectarian violence still going on. There is a such thing as a just war, as after Pearl Harbor we were probably right in fighting Japan and Germany in World War II.
‘No doubt you’ll join me in urging that the US get more involved in stopping that massacre.’
I must confess I haven’t heard any news on that front in such a long time. Is it still wholesale massacre, and if so are any measures being made by the United Nations, as their was disparity between them and the African Union. Perhaps I would be willing.
Pagansis:
The question about monotheism and Christianity was directed at Jestrfyl. As a Christian minister I never heard him address or denounce any derrogatory statements made by our contempory (like, gee, don’t you wonder who that could be) who wears his militant atheism on his sleeve, and IMO denounces those believers as ridiculous and delusional (aka Bill Mauer.) I find this rather curious as his feathers get easily ruffled at more conservative Christians with traditional family values. Maybe I’m wrong about Jestrfyl who may have attempted to address this in the past and gave up on it before I started frequenting these discussion threads. To my knowledge you have never directly insulted the Christian faith and I don’t think less of you for believing the way you do. I myself thought traditional Christianity to be ridiculous for many years of my life. Nevertheless, thankyou for sharing your views in a civilized manner.

Generally speaking Tom I’d give the rights of a human to a born human. For the most part it makes a bright dividing line. In line with Roe v. Wade (and the RCC for periods of its history) I’d go along with giving more and more protection to the bzef (blastocyst zygote embryo fetus) as it develops. I don’t see any logical problem in you, having been born three weeks early and having met your family and claimed their love and care, being granted that human protection before others as mature as you but not yet born. None of them could have been aborted without rather extraordinary reasons in most places so I don’t see a problem.

Now to get back to the actual topic, the Haj, an interesting paper has come out, “Estimating the Impact of the Hajj: Religion and Tolerance in Islam’s Global Gathering,” by Case Western Reserve’s David Clingingsmith and two Harvard scholars, Asim Ijaz Khwaja and Michael Kremer. As I understand summaries the experience is indeed on average broadening and liberalizing. You can see a short summary here* and if you want to download the whole (long!) paper you can do it here*.

Tom, I saw the PS in that post and mistook it as being addressed to me. Oh well. I certainly can’t speak for jestrfyl. But many times I do agree with his points of view. He is,IMO, a good, if not great representative of Christianity.
And I have no reason to not respect the Christian religion (or any other for that matter) but do take exception sometimes with those who choose to realize that their way of thinking is the ONLY way to think and all others aren’t valid.

correction: Tom, the last sentence should say “………choose to BELIEVE that their way of thinking is the ONLY way to think and all others aren’t valid.”

I figured out what happened later with the PS and always try to respect differing opinions.