How can they start another agenda without finishing the agenda of GLBT, and Women Priests? Won’t that become a depressing state of affairs for their members?

I’d certainly like to see them fix their GLBT policies and move on but they are probably right that they’ve missed out on perhaps more immediate issues. They really should be able to do both at once.

Sounds as if they too are having a problem with figuring out what to do. And yes, Henrietta, GLBT and women priest issues need to be continued, but as nnmns mentioned…they should be able to do both at once..those issues and the current state of the world affairs…economic and otherwise.

A must read of the wretched state of the Episcopal denomination: http://tinyurl.com/Primer4Pewsitters :
The money allocated in 2006 for the lawsuits had to be revised upward by 1560%! The national church has just allocated only $1.8 million for the next installment to the lawyers, another figure that will certainly be revised upwards significantly because Ms Schori is vastly increasing the scope of the litigation.
“Six million dollars spent on litigation against parish churches and departing clergy, however, does not begin to tell the ecclesiastical carnage that has occurred since the Most Reverend Katharine Jefferts Schori assumed the office of its Presiding Bishop in November 2006. As documented in the report mentioned earlier, there have been more bishops and clergy deposed, or involuntarily removed from the ranks of the Church, in the two-and-a-half years of her term than at any other time in its four-hundred-year history.”
Et cetera… You simply must read it and shake your head.

But doing what is right to help the demonized GLBT and woman priests is infinitly more important than what money is spent doing this. This is the right thing to do. After all what good is it to be a Christian and not live like one?

And here is a hilarious video of one person’s take on “Why I am an Episcopalian.”: http://tinyurl.com/ckyocl
Episcopalians can use language like, “deeper simplicity” and “expanded Lenten fast”.
And we have this, “The global impact is difficult to calculate, except that the poor will become poorer and our commitment to continue our work toward achieving the Millennium Development Goals by 2015 is at great risk.”
They fail to mention that the MDG budget item was cut from the national budget so that the monies to the lawyers could keep flowing.

It’s not about helping the “demonized GLBT and woman priests,” Henrietta. Jefferts Schori is a nasty, vindictive woman, one of the worst leaders of a major Christian denomination in recent history. She’s doing everything she can to make sure that the conservative factions in the church fail, and she’ll seemingly stop at nothing to do so.

Told you so!

Gloating, cknuck? How very Christian of you.

How interesting. It appears to me that some of the posters are attempting to make our Presiding Bishop guilty because some of our churches and bishops do not want to remain as part of our group. Hmmm, so our leader taking action against people who are not following the rules is at fault. Hmmmm, so those attempting to take church property are not guilty? Hmmm! Seems like kinda bizarre reasoning to me!

OK, this is why I love the disorganized church. We’ve known about the financial mess all along. Too much organization seems to require a certain size blinders. But I am sure they will catch up once the decreased financial numbers from the local parishes begin to dribble in.
Don’t blame the higher ups for what the local representatives missed. The Grande Fromage is shepherd to the shepherds; the bishops and priests are shepherds to the flock/people.

Mordred, no I’m not gloating I’m just saying I told you so and it is not hard that so many people who are so consumed with matters of the world did not see this coming. This is just the beginning it’s hard to turn a ship around once it starts sinking and it started sinking when they elected a bisexual as a bishop. Watch what happens next.

This seems to have degenerated to a discussion of Episcopal finances, which aren’t mentioned in the article.
I was happy to see someone admit “We have often failed to speak truth to power,” though they followed up by saying consumerism was the power they should have confronted. And that’s a fine and important thing to confront but they as an institution also stood by when a President who was clearly incompetent drove us into a needless and counterproductive war. Of course all the other major religions effectively did so too.
So if religion is justified as a counterweight to governmental power but none of the religions with any weight serve that purpose, what does that leave to justify religion? Harassing homosexuals and those who need abortions? Infecting people with beliefs contrary to evidence and logic?
No, I think the only positive aspect of the major religions is coffee. For slumbering through a talk, at some churches you can be rewarded with a cupa to wake you up and make you safe to rejoin traffic.

“it is not hard that so many people who are so consumed with matters of the world did not see this coming.”
Ok, so why is the LGBT issue a “matter of the world”, but the economy isn’t?

There is a small mistake in the news article. No diocese or parish has left the Episcopal Church. Members of four dioceses and parishes have left, but neither the dioceses nor parishes have left. That is not possible to do under canon law (and it look like US civil law, as well).

“Members of four dioceses and parishes have left, but neither the dioceses nor parishes have left. That is not possible to do under canon law.”
James, that’s simple mendacity or delusion. The Constitution and Canons are available online (http://tinyurl.com/y5htf5 ). Please cite chapter and verse about dioceses not leaving. Now, we have the Dennis canon (which may or may not have been legitimately passed which ONLY speaks about parish PROPERTY. But many parishes have left with or without their property.
How ironic (or deceitful) that James would reference Hooker’s three legged stool when he spits on the Bible and tradition (and the reason part is a travesty as well).
“…our leader taking action against people who are not following the rules is at fault.”
Again, see the referenced report http://tinyurl.com/AACreport that also details Ms Schori’s multiple violations of canon law. The liberals have sacrificed their right to talk about “justice” when then stand by and let her depose bishops (more than in the entire history of the denomination) without trial.
But justice will be served. The denomination is rapidly disappearing (the equivalent of 1.5 churches per day!) and the Anglican Church of North America is rapidly expanding.

nnmns wrote, “No, I think the only positive aspect of the major religions is coffee. For slumbering through a talk, at some churches you can be rewarded with a cupa to wake you up and make you safe to rejoin traffic.”
Clearly it has been a while since you’ve been to church! For the most part church coffee is decaf and little more than brown hot water. Members of our church have finally gotten the hang of making sufficient coffee, but it is not something I have experienced in many other churches. Too many are so cost conscious that they hold back on the grounds and meekly accept steaming hot blah.

NateW, thanks for explaining the character faults of “Jefferts Shori”, I hope she wins.

J, I wasn’t talking about your sermons. And my church experience is almost totally limited to UU’s, who I presume still like their coffee.

“my church experience is almost totally limited to UU’s”
Well then its no wonder you have such a messed up view of organized religion. The one organized religion you have direct experience with is the one organized religion that in fact prides itself on not being organized.

Hey Bob,
We in the UCC work fairly hard at our own disorganization – and this is a source of some pride. Frankly, I think a few more of our partners in Christianity could do with a little less organization. And we could all do with some better (read, “stronger”) coffee.

“The one organized religion you have direct experience with is the one organized religion that in fact prides itself on not being organized.”
Bob, this is probably true. But it’s the only one (possibly excepting J’s) I could get in the door without feeling in enemy territory. I had my defining experiences with organized religion before I attended church, going to the occasional funeral when all the preachers but Unitarians would talk about how we need to get saved to avoid going to hell. Not much comfort for grieving relatives in that! But clearly taking their opportunity to try for a few more parishioners.

I don’t know which God the UU follows because God is a God of order. I think the bible warns us of such Gospel and it has a name for it.

Are you commenting on the apparent disorder in the Vatican?
I’m sure your local UU church or fellowship would love to have you stop in, attend a service and chat.

Another UU here and mighty proud to have raised 2 very bright children in it’s liberal, accepting of all atmosphere. jestrfyl, I think I could, however, feel at home in your group too, if you are indeed an example of what the religion is like.
Your god, cknuck, may be a god of order, but Mother Nature has her own order, and it is up to her children to try and stop messing up that order. We may have a chance now, since the person in the White House has changed. Garden on the White House lawn…totally cool.

Just one more thought, cknuck. YOu mentioned that you weren’t sure what god the UU’s follow. That would be an individual decision, as it isn’t dictated. )

Bob:
“The one organized religion you have direct experience with is the one organized religion that in fact prides itself on not being organized.”
I like it already. Where do I sign up?
cknuck:
“I don’t know which God the UU follows because God is a God of order.”
Which explains why his creation is so full of disorder.

Mordred08:
You’d be very welcome in a UU congregation.
And nnmns, last time I was in a UU church…coffee was still very important.

I am a Catholic, who converted from the Episcopal Church during Vatican II in 1964 and I’m pretty liberal politically but Scriptural authority in matters of faith and morals can never be negotiable. And this is yet another pathetic attempt by the Episcopal (mis-) leadership to change the subject, while tens of thousands of faithful Episcopal/Anglican Christians flee for the sake of their Salvation. Scripture clearly condemns homosexual practice and (Henrietta22 and others with similar opinions!) Romans 1: 32 also condemns those who condone it.

No Mordred it’s people that bring disorder to God’s creation, and TEC is a clear example of this disorder. Shori is such a nut she has the church so focused on promoting homosexuality she is destroying the church. The bible is the living instructions for the church and she spits on it with a false gospel, a church like that cannot stand.

Your Name, and Cknuck, Shori is not promoting homoexuality, it was here from the beginning of time, unrecognized and misunderstood. Tell any mother who has a gay child that they are doomed for understanding this child, and seeking Scientific understanding, and they will tell you in no uncetain terms that homosexuality is somehow genetic. No amount of repeating the Bible verses and putting your understanding to them matters. It is what it is.

“Shori [sic] is not promoting homosexuality.”
There is a famous gay activist that points out that incidence of homosexuality is much higher in permissive countries. (Will try to look up the source.) So by attempting to make this country as permissive as the Netherlands, she IS promoting homosexuality.
“Tell any mother who has a gay child that they are doomed for understanding this child, and seeking Scientific understanding, and they will tell you in no uncetain terms that homosexuality is somehow genetic.”
Again, there is could be a small genetic component (less than 20%). A mother stating anecdotally that is genetic could hardly be considered science. And whether homosexuality has a genetic component, that is entirely irrelevant. Promiscuity probably has a genetic component. Should we bless that?

Going from mothers to scientist still there has been no homosexual gene identified, no discernible hormones, as a matter of fact when a person wants to chemically enhance the features in themselves of the opposite sex thay have to use injections of hormones of the opposite sex. So there is no homosexual identifier other than sexual behavior.
Pursuing the vain desire to have sex with the same sex or to look like the opposite sex or to have sex with both sexes are the occupations of a lost society. Church is suppose to hold up a standard even when the rest of the world standard is lost and confused TEC has not and Shori is leading them down the road to distraction and the ultimate demise of their effectiveness in the body of Christ.

And just why didn’t JC marry like most of the other Jewish men of his time were supposed to do? I wonder….ran around with a bunch of guys, right? )

A study published in J Gen Intern Med. 1997 April; 12(4): 250–253 found that 35% of male homosexuals had a history of childhood sexual molestation. The actual incidence is probably much higher because the child will try to suppress those memories. The study found those homosexuals that reported childhood molestation engaged in much riskier sexual practices. But another conclusion is that the history of childhood sexual abuse as a risk factor is much greater than any genetic tendency. One might then ask, should we be celebrating a behavior that is frequently born out of something so terrible as childhood sexual molestation.

The information you just posted from 1997 may have a few molested GLBT, hard to get away from that for anybody, but it was probably a reprint from yrs. before printed again to make the anti-GLBT contented. Such negative articles won’t help anyone. People are born the way they are.

robroy: “A study published in J Gen Intern Med. 1997 April; 12(4): 250–253 found that 35% of male homosexuals had a history of childhood sexual molestation.”
And what does that have to do with the 65% who didn’t?
“The actual incidence is probably much higher because the child will try to suppress those memories.”
Unless the actual incidence is 100%, it doesn’t change anything.
“The study found those homosexuals that reported childhood molestation engaged in much riskier sexual practices.”
Which says nothing about the ones who didn’t.
“But another conclusion is that the history of childhood sexual abuse as a risk factor is much greater than any genetic tendency. One might then ask, should we be celebrating a behavior that is frequently born out of something so terrible as childhood sexual molestation.”
Call me crazy, but if a man forced himself on me sexually, it would probably make me LESS interested in men, rather than more so. Hell, I got groped on by a few guys in high school and I still think most men are gross. I say most men, because occasionally one comes along that makes me take a second look. Don’t worry, I probably wouldn’t give YOU the time of day.

H22, the fact is there is no proof that homosexuals are born homosexual, people may be born with tendencies or curiosity, but it is what the world does is what creates. Like I said there is no way to identify homosexuality other than behavior.
pagan quote “And just why didn’t JC marry like most of the other Jewish men of his time were supposed to do? I wonder….ran around with a bunch of guys, right? )”
That kind of talk really defines character (character is being polite, I can think of other descriptions) and the character of those who agree with such slanderous rhetoric, anything absolutely anything to promote homosexuality. When one sinks to such a depth they really ought to reconsider who they are and what they do.

The fact is Cknuck, that personalities of GLBT are different than you, my husband or myself. If you haven’t lived around gay people you may not have experienced this, but there are many articles that state this, and if you didn’t have a closed mind you would seek what I say out. Talk to parents of gay children, and listen, don’t preach.

Just a question, cknuck. No one seems to know the answer. He could have married and some feel he did, and lived to raise a family. But who knows, he was supposed to have died… single. No physical proof of anything claimed in the Bible, IMO. Slanderous rhetoric? Oh please! If indeed JC was gay, how would that be “slanderous”? It would have just been a fact…nothing to be ashamed of. Homosexuals are “people” too. )

H22, I’ve not been a bubble my whole life it amazes me you think that.
pagan if you were not so intent on the promotion of homosexuality you would know what Jesus thought about sexuality He spoke on it in detail, and never once did He promote homosexuality, He didn’t give it any merit at all, but He did promote one man one woman marriage. If you wanted to get your fact right concerning this you could easily do so but you would rather slander Jesus with outrageous insults.

I rarely preach H22 almost never I do help people so voicing my opinion is no more preaching than you. I understand where the accusation comes from but it is inaccurate.
pagan did speak very much about sexuality and relationships and no where did He promote homosexuality in His talks, although he did promote one man one woman marriage.

If indeed JC was gay,cknuck, do you think he’d promote it? After all, I expect those that were weren’t treated very well, even in JC’s time. If i remember correctly, he did ACCEPT all people, those that were ill, ladies of the evening etc., so you’re saying he wouldn’t accept someone who was gay? I’m promoting homosexuality? No, just realize it is a part of life in this wide world, cknuck. BTW, how is accepting homosexuality promoting it? Strange thing to say. People talk about heterosexuality but it isn’t considered “promoting it”. Just thought I’d ask.

pagan you really talk a lot of nonsense about a faith you consistently deny you agenda is showing.

Nonsense is fun. Question…just what might that agenda you claim I have be? I only call it as I see it, as do most folks. And if an “agenda” (as you like to call it) is showing, fine with me! If equality and questions about a founder (if you will) of a religion is an agenda…”Is no problem”.

previous post mostly for cknuck. ) (and others who might be interested)

pagan your opening statement say it all nonsense can be an objective, a agenda and tactic and most of all a waste of time, I believe it was one of the Screwtape teachings.

“…Screwtape teachings”? Whatever that is! Waste of time? I’m retired so I can do what I want with time. No more bosses telling me what to do with it.