Who calculates the margin of error for the margin of error?

Anyone who takes these polls very seriously is being unwise. For instance, polls repeatedly found Prop 8 losing in California only to pass. And we’ve seen how polls relating to homosexuality tend to understate the conservative position. It’s clear that a solid majority of Americans are opposed to legalizing same-sex marriages.

That will change. In the meantime folks might reasonably work for civil unions that are, legally, functional equivalents of marriage.
And as gays marry some places and traditional marriages somehow survive unchanged maybe even the Evangelicals will get the idea that they are being duped by power hungry leaders.

And we’ve seen how polls relating to homosexuality tend to understate the conservative position. It’s clear that a solid majority of Americans are opposed to legalizing same-sex marriages.
It’s also clear that conservatives are becoming less and less likely to speak about their views in public, as this poll shows.
This is the beginning of the end for the anti-gay laws in this country. While anti-gay sentiment will still abound, it is only a matter of time before the laws reflect the public voice, if not the private musings, of the populace.
Though conservatives may be loathe to recognize the parallels between the civil rights movement and the women’s movement philosophically (and they can certainly be argued, as many have done in the past) the parallels for the political process surrounding the sweeping social change that have accompanied each movement are sound.
What will happen is the public voice (which owes a hefty debt to the conservative concept of shame) will soon be status quo. Children who never lived in a time when gay = bad will grow to voting age, and the rest will be history.
Meanwhile, people will still have conversations in the privacy of their own homes about the hated “other,” mush as I’m sure they did in the first few decades after the Civil Rights Act or Women’s Suffrage. I’m sure the most Archie Bunker-fied of folks ranted behind their own closed doors but played along just fine in the workplace and the marketplace. Little Gloria, on the other hand…
Time marches on, and everything changes. Soon it will be another hated “other” that will take the place of this one…
As it was, as it is, and as it shall ever be.

Evangelicals appear to be against everything equal for homosexuals…which is sad. With or without them, equality will happen for all Americans eventually, and those that find it “sinful” will just have to live with it. Then they will find that nothing in their lives will change…life will go on and the world won’t come to an end and their god will smile because she/he loves everyone she/he created. (though that seems to be hard for them to realize.)

Quinnipiac U. has a good track record for their polls, they are timely and accurate. Of course they used 2000 people to poll, that isn’t very many if you want to know how America thinks. Without a doubt the Military will change, that’s a given. Peoples awareness is changing rapidly and how they think and decide will change as rapidly in the months ahead, not years, anymore.

“It’s clear that a solid majority of Americans are opposed to legalizing same-sex marriages.”
A majority perhaps….solid….not hardly. And, that majority continues to erode. As has already been noted…as people realize that their lives continue unchanged even when gays/lesbians lives are remarkably changed by new found equality.
BTW, had the CA vote happened two weeks earlier…Prop 8 would probably not have passed. Those robo-calls to black households playing out of context Obama quotes making it appear that Obama supported Prop 8….made a huge difference.
Peace!

And a related poll shows that the more one goes to church, the more one supports torture – with evangelicals, of course, being the most torture happy.
Nothing new here, same old story that Christianity in the US has become the religion of hate, much as Islam has in the Middle East.

“It’s clear that a solid majority of Americans are opposed to legalizing same-sex marriages.”
That certainly isn’t “clear” at all from this poll, Steve. Or a least, not from the slim pickings of results that this article gives us. In fact, support for or opposition to legalizing same-sex marriages is not even mentioned in this abysmally slim ‘report’ referring only to this statistic: “Americans slightly support, 50 to 44 percent, the provision that allows states to not recognize gay unions, but a slim majority, 54 to 39 percent, supports federal spousal benefits.” Conflicted to say the least.
Considering that many Americans (falsely) believe “civil” unions are roughly the equivalent of marriage (they aren’t, not by 1,176 FEDERAL benefits, they aren’t!), this one lone statistic demonstrates that the majority (ahem, the solid majority, with a 15% point spread – hardly the “slim” majority this RNS “news” story deigns to grant) of Americans seem to believe the Federal Government should, in fact, be conferring those benefits on “civilly” unionized, nevermind the legally married, same-sex couples. Heck, even one George W. Bush ‘believes’ that (or at least once said so publicly).
It also highlights the dichotomoy/inherent ignorance of the Constitution’s Full Faith & Credit Clause when a (‘mere’ or “slim”)50% ‘majority’ continue to support states’ right to not recognize the rights of gay couples who are legally married in currently 4, soon to be 7 states (not to mention the 7 or 8 other countries where legal marriages take place). And don’t get me started on the Equal Protections Clause.
Now, in a poll that does address the question, a 22 April, 2007 New York Times/CBS poll revealed that 39% of Americans thought “Gay couples should be allowed to legally marry” and a further 29% thought “Gay couples should be allowed to form civil unions”. Sorry, Steve, but only 25% thought they should recieve “No legal recognition” v. 68% in favor of legal recognition.
That does not support your theory, Steve. Rather, it seems to blow your theory out of the water rather handily. (And remember, that was more than 2 years ago. Even more people have switched sides since then.)
Same thing with Plus ca change’s ‘theory’ that, “It’s also clear that conservatives are becoming less and less likely to speak about their views in public, as this poll shows.”
Again, quite the opposite: “Three-fourths of evangelicals oppose laws to allow gay marriage; two-thirds oppose civil unions; and 62 percent oppose federal spousal benefits. More than half of evangelicals see gay marriage as a “threat to traditional marriage”. Let’s see now, on the low range, “more than half” of conservatives (well, evangelicals – there’s hardly much of a difference) felt perfectly free to “speak about their (negative) views in public”, and as many as 75% at the top end of the range. I think Plus ca change is mis-reading the poll/report.
What is really happening is that there are simply fewer and fewer conservatives, period. (Hey, maybe they finally decided it’s time America started actually progressing instead of going constantly back to the ficticious ’50s.) Catholics used to be considered conservative (many still are, some rabidly so – read almost any of cknuck’s or Erin Manning’s comments), and yet now, “two-thirds of Catholics … disagree” that same-sex marriage is some kind of “threat to traditional marriage”. People are, more and more, getting to actually know gay people and are realizing that they’ve been fed a line of B.S. for way too long, and they’re simply not buying into those lies any longer.
Lastly, I think Plus ca change speaks in the wrong tense when s/he writes, “Children who never lived in a time when gay = bad”. Clearly, there are many, many people who continue to ‘think’ that gay very clearly = bad, and most of them can be found readily commenting right here on B’net.
Bad? Heck, we’re far worse than that; we’re “despicable”, we’re “Satan’s minions”, we’re “Sons of Moloch”, we’re sodomites, catamites, and dog-f*kkers or child rapists, and our relationships are the equivalent of “marryin’ a plant/horse/bicycle/rock/corpse/child”. Two American Governors have said publicly that we are “worse than terrorists”.
Hate = conservative values, apparently. Glad to see they’re rather rapidly dying.

So is it better to be nuanced or finessed?

I believe God created all of humanity equal. Gay or not we are all children of God. In America we are all equal under the law. That should include ALL rights…even the right to same sex marriage and the benefits that apply to heterosexual marriage.
As for judging, I leave that up to our maker, the Lord God Almighty.

Actually the thing that polygamy and some other sexual diversions from the norm has in common is that they define the group of participate. Homosexuality is defined by sexual preference and that is the only physical difference, unlike race or sex. I believe that policy of the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics concerning homosexuality is more political than science, there is no genetic proof of why people are homosexual.

cknuck-
There is no genetic proof of why some people are heterosexual either. Or why some people are bisexual.
Peace!

Is there any genetic proof for why gay citizens shouldn’t be treated equally under the law?

cknuck wrote: “Homosexuality is defined by sexual preference and that is the only physical difference, unlike race or sex.”
So. Why so hung up on the physical?

YN they are treated equally under the law. I assume you are trying to make the claim they should be treated as man and wife, or change the definition all together. Well to me that makes no sense they are not man and wife they are something different. You could I guess legislate and dictate that the people recognize them as that but it still wouldn’t be so.

They are not treated equally any more than the
Blacks were treated equally Cknuck. Please open your eyes and clear your mind. They do not want to be considered man and wife, marriage is for love, loyalty, family, and duty to each other and the society they live in; lived together. If heterosexual marriages cared more about what marriage is supposed to be, and less that it means one man and one woman the divorce courts would do less business.

cknuck:
“YN they are treated equally under the law.”
Lying for Jesus, I see. No, gays are not treated equally in this country. They’re not allowed to openly serve in the military. They can still get fired from non-religious jobs based on their orientation alone (my company included). And not only are they not allowed to have a state-recognized marriage in most of the country; in some states (mine included) they’re not even allowed these “equivalent” civil unions conservatives babble on about. So don’t give me that garbage about gays being treated equally. Because that’s all it is: garbage and lies. I used to think Christians were supposed to be above that.

Here we go again H22, “blacks” are a group of people noted for their skin color and homosexuals are a group of people noted for wanting to have sex with people of their same sex. Big difference as a matter of fact if you were in any way color blind you wouldn’t notice the difference. “blacks” marry one man one woman, reproduce and have normal sex. Homosexuals do not reproduce through homosexual sex “ever” they are not opposite sexes coming together as one and their choice of sex is not normal despite propaganda.
Since you personally have never did anything for “blacks” but watch them get beat, hosed, and killed down south I think it is unfair for you to make the unfair comparison as if that is all we are good for, your homosexual agenda.

Little harsh with that last sentence to Hentrietta, cknuck. I seriously doubt what you said to her is even near true.
Also, you mentioned blacks marry one man and one woman. So I guess there aren’t any black homosexuals? Please. Homosexuality, like heterosexuality part of humanity, since humans started on this earth.

I ask just one question: Is orientation, in every case, merely a choice ? The church is basing their justification of harassment, and efforts to deny medical and other rights, on this presumption. Look at any of the evidence. We still don’t understand all that is going on, but we do know for sure there can be biological factors. Suddenly the church starts to look a lot less like servants of the suffering, and more like hatemongers.

It’s no good cknuck, your silly argument about no parallel between lack of equality for hundreds of years that the Black people lived through, against the lack of equality that the GLBT have also lived through for hundreds of years. We are talking about EQUALITY, nothing else. Blacks as you call them marry opposite sexes if they aren’t gay. Now they will marry each other when they can if they are of one sex. You have no idea what I’ve done in my life and what I will do Cknuck, and to insult me lowers your integrity.

YN I need not know anything about you to know what homosexuality is, it is a sexual desire acted out in a way that I care not to describe. So it is not about you YN personally it’s about the act and all the things that come out of it. Homosexuals in this country have it very nice, you can deny it but it wouldn’t be true. Homosexuals in some other countries have it pretty hard so go there and protest or help.

>Homosexuals in some other countries have it pretty hard so go there and protest or help.

There is probably a lot of things you don’t understand Jordon don’t blame Christians we are not the only people who think marriage is for man and woman we may be among the few bold enough to speak up.
Yes I do think if you have a passion for a situation then go and help others anywhere not necessarily elsewhere but anywhere. People are still arguing what marriage is about fortunately one person don’t get to say. So far for the most part it is about husband and wife, one man one woman.

I’m not blaming Christians, cknuck. In fact, the Christians who are my friends support gay marriage. Which is why I’m puzzled by the ones who get so bent out of shape.
And actually, we’re only talking about state-sanctioned marriage and that sanctioned by certain denominations. UCC, Unitarians and (I think) Reformed Jews allow it. And if a wedding is a sacrament, it’s the church ceremony that counts, right? Gay marriages are happening every day. You don’t get to say whether they are married or not. The issue is state recognition of these unions.
>Yes I do think if you have a passion for a situation then go and help others anywhere not necessarily elsewhere but anywhere.

cknuck-
You continue to suggest that Christians do not support same-gender marriage. And, while I am certainly aware than many do not…….I am Christian and I as well as most everyone I know in our church supports marriage-equality. You know that Henrietta and Jestfyl are both Christians and they support marriage equality.
Jordan-
Reformed, Reconstruction, and Conservative branches of Judaism support same-gender marriage. Only the Orthodox branch still prohibits marriage equality.
Peace!

Everyone probably saw that both houses of the NH and ME legislatures have approved bill that would legalized same-gender marriage in their respective states. It is unclear whether or not the governors of each state will sign the bills. Previously, the gov of NH has opposed marriage equality. However, a very recent poll showed that 55% of NH citizens support marriage equality with only 39% opposing it.
Also, Washington, DC council has voted to recognize same-gender marriages performed in states where they are legal. Of course, the US congress must still approve their vote.
Peace!

SOOO much false witness lately …
“YN they are treated equally under the law.”
No, we’re not, as several posters have already pointed out.
“I assume you are trying to make the claim they should be treated as man and wife”
Your ASSumption is, as usual, wrong, ck. We wish to be treated as spouses – because we are – whether you happen to like it or not.
“You could I guess legislate and dictate that the people recognize them as that but it still wouldn’t be so.”
In your not so humble opinion. Others disagree. But you are also wrong on the point of the legislation; it is not to dictate to “the people” but to the government to recognize our relationships – as it does YOURS.
“homosexuals are a group of people noted for wanting to have sex with people of their same sex”
Wrong again, as usual. Not “wanting to” but naturally attracted to. Just as your skin is naturally black. One is not deviant because the colour of one’s skin is different from the majority.
“blacks” marry one man one woman”
I could introduce you to several black couples of my acquaintance, ck, and not one of them did that. And a couple of inter-racial ones too. Would you like links to photographs of their weddings?
“reproduce”
Well, some of my LGBT couples actually did reproduce, contrary to what you happen to believe. But it wasn’t a requirement for them to get married. In fact a couple of them did so before getting married – sorta like a lot of str8 couples do.
“and have normal sex.”
Heterosexual sex is ony “normal” for heterosexuals. God didn’t create all of us str8, much to your evident disbelief.
“Homosexuals do not reproduce”
Some do, but again, it isn’t a requirement of marriage, Erin, ooops, I mean ck – not even for heterosexuals.
“they are not opposite sexes”
Oooo, BIG ‘revelation’. How perceptive.
“their choice of sex is not normal despite propaganda.”
Homosexual sex is perfectly normal – for homosexuals – despite your constant false propaganda.
“Since you personally have never did anything for “blacks” but watch them get beat, hosed, and killed down south”
How little you acually know us, ck. I marched too. I signed petitions too. And, btw, it ain’t just blacks that “get beat, hosed, and killed” – gays did too (and still do) – and it ain’t just “down south” either.
I think it is unfair for you to make the unfair comparison as if that is all we are good for, your heterosexual agenda.
Stop bearing so much false witness. It doesn’t speak well of your “christianity”.

Ye gods, yet more lies …
“I need not know anything about you to know what homosexuality is, it is a sexual desire acted out in a way that I care not to describe.”
Gay people are gay whether or not they “act out” on their innate, natural oreientation. You, yourself, ck, would be heterosexual even if you never, ever had sex again – because you are naturally attracted to people of the opposite sex. That is your nature. It is natural – for you. It is innate. As our orientation is innate and natural for us.
As for the ways in which ALL persons “act out” on their sexual orientation, there is not a single sex act that gay people perform that you hets do not also do. Anal sex, for instance, is practised by a LOT more hets than gays. Get a clue.
“it’s about the act and all the things that come out of it.”
What comes out of my sexual practices with my husband are pretty much what comes out of yours with your wife – the expression of love, of unity, of affection. The only possible exception is that a baby won’t ever “come out of it” – and, imo, that’s a good thing. The world is far too overpopulated already – with all of the things that ‘come out of’ that – climate change, pollution, etc.
“Homosexuals in this country have it very nice, you can deny it but it wouldn’t be true.”
Oh it is SOOO “nice” to be able to be fired (or not hired) merely for being what one is. You lucky people of colour don’t have to put up with that sh!t anymore, but in more than 30 States, gays do.
It is SOOO “nice” to be written out of 30 State Constitutions.
It is SOOO “nice” not to receive the 1,176 federal benefits that come with marriage.
It is SOOO “nice” not to be allowed to serve one’s country in the military.
It is SOOO “nice” to be the target of organized religion.
You. Are. Delusional. And with every post you type, you prove it.

“don’t blame Christians we are not the only people who think marriage is for man and woman”
Not all Christians believe what you believe, ck. We don’t “blame” them, only the haters and the bearers of false witness who call themselves “Cristian”.
“People are still arguing what marriage is about fortunately one person don’t get to say.
The “fotunate” part is that you are that “one person”. You don’t get to say – for me.
“So far for the most part it is about husband and wife, one man one woman.”
That’s the first logical thing I’ve seen you type here, ck, and one with which I have no qualms whatsoever. I don’t argue that “most” married couples are, indeed, 1 man, 1 woman. But there are many other couples who aren’t. Just like “most” marriages (in America, at least) are 1 WHITE man and 1 WHITE woman. So what. Doesn’t mean that blacks can’t (or shouldn’t be able to) marry another black person (or a white person, for that matter).
Being in the majority has never, ipso facto, made anything “right” (or “wrong”) in and of itself.
Hooray for diversity, I say. And apparently, with that one sentence, you concur.

Well, same-gender marriage is now going to be legal in Maine!
The gov signed the legislation into law today.
Peace!

The “queers” (to quote Joe the Plumber) are winning:
http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-marriage-becomes-law-in-maine/
All via the Legislature – no “activist judges” required.

>
Reformed, Reconstruction, and Conservative branches of Judaism support same-gender marriage. Only the Orthodox branch still prohibits marriage equality.

Husband quote, “Gay people are gay whether or not they “act out” on their innate, natural oreientation.”
I don’t know what a “gay” person is, that description does not fit all homosexuals.
What do Black people have to do with it Husband, let’s hear from Wife what does she think?

Yes, JohnQ….Maine has joined the other states in realizing “equality” for all her citizens. “The times they are a changing” for the good.

cknuck,
“Husband quote, “Gay people are gay whether or not they “act out” on their innate, natural oreientation.”
“I don’t know what a “gay” person is”
Figures.
“that description does not fit all homosexuals.”
Nor does the description “straight” fit all heterosexuals. Please do us (and yourself) a favor and get a clue. Or three.
“What do Black people have to do with it Husband”
Skin pigmentation, like sexual orientation, is an innate and immutable characteristic. This has been explained many times before. Start paying attention or you’ll never learn anything.
>”let’s hear from Wife what does she think?”
It has also been explained to you many (many) times that I am a gay male who is legally married to another man. I don’t have a wife; I have a husband.

husband quote, “Skin pigmentation, like sexual orientation, is an innate and immutable characteristic”
There is absolutely no concrete proof of that statement so it is a lie.
So you are a husband and he is a husband and that makes sense to you.

“So you are a husband and he is a husband and that makes sense to you.”
Perfectly. And to my Church (in which we were married). And to my government (which actually believes in treating all people equally before the law, unlike the U.S. government). And to my family, my friends, my community.
I don’t give a fig if our spousal status doesn’t “make sense” to you. My marriage has nothing to do with you. Get over yourself.
husband quote, “Skin pigmentation, like sexual orientation, is an innate and immutable characteristic”
“There is absolutely no concrete proof of that statement so it is a lie.”
There’s no ‘proof’ that God exists. Is God a “lie”? Meanwhile, feel free to check with any major, reputable (i.e. NOT the “family” “research” council nor Let’s Focus on SOME people’ families) health organization as to the innate and immutable characteristic that is sexual orientation.
Or, you could even ask yourself – could you ‘become’ a homosexual? Could you ‘change’? Let us know your answer.