The Vatican has very harmful policies on population control, which China has accomplished admittedly using harsh measures but who knows if any others would have worked as well. And a world with say 25% or 50% more Chinese than there are now would be a world in even much bigger trouble than it is.
So I’m not rooting for the Vatican on this one. They have not shown moral leadership and they have dangerous policies and it would seem they want more members, always more members.
And who knows how many Chinese children have been saved from molestation by the disconnect from the Vatican. Just speculating.

Does Benny actually think the Chinese really care what he thinks? Religious freedom in China is a long way off, if it ever happens. And a good point about the RCC(made by nnmns) and it’s “have a bunch of babies” certainly doesn’t meet the “1 child per couple” mandate of the Chinese government.

I must say, nnmns, that it’s rather disappointing (although not at all surprising) that all your talk about “a woman’s right to choose” in the abortion discussions is just a bunch of hypocritical hot air. Apparently you only support American women being able to plan the size of their families, but you don’t give a darn about the Chinese because the world would be “in even much bigger trouble than it is” if Chinese families had the same freedoms Americans enjoy. I suppose as long as you can sit back in the comfort and security of America’s borders, you don’t really care what happens overseas.
“Pro-choice” my foot.

Nate I do care but I care about my children and grandchildren too and the world really needs fewer people, not more. In China’s case it could be a LOT more. I’m not telling China what to do and I don’t want the Vatican doing it either.
Read this article on the US climate report. These problems are caused by the junk we put into the air (and of course other serious problems are caused by the junk we put into the water and the ground) and the amount of pollution we inflict on the world is proportional to the number of people who use stuff. Obviously there are other factors which we can and must control but one vital one is population size.
We aren’t smart enough or wise enough to live in a sustainable world with a lot more people than we have. We don’t know how to do it and it would require discipline most people aren’t ready to accept. Perhaps one day we will be able to but we aren’t there now. We need to celebrate China’s resolve on that issue and find all the ways we can to reduce our own impacts.

I have this image from the Marx Brothers; Chico saying to Harpo, “Get tough, Pinky”; and Harpo crosses his eyes, makes a mean grimace, and swings his arms in useless menace.
We have to agencies that each tries to exert control in the false notion that they know better. Like Harpo, each is a clown that has no clear motive for improving the human sitation. Instead they choose to advance their own political and abstract concepts. Like Chico, b16 is egging on his (mute) spokesperson.
The entire adventure is the very essence of political comedy at its worst.

j, it’s good to see you posting again.

nnmns
Thanks – we had a family event and I got called out of town. My dad died on June 1 – 92 years old and still living in the same house we grew up in. It was shocking, but no surprise. He was well up until dawn of that morning, gone before the sun evaporated the dew. So from the 8th until yesterday we were in Conn. with family; funeral, cleaning, legal/financial issues. I am grateful that their minister is a great guy and I did not feel a need to “do” the memorial service.
But I am back and when I am ignoring work needs I am here looking through these stories. I appreciate friends keeping tabs on me.

Sorry about your father. It sounds like he had a full life. Not a bad way to go.

My sympathy to you and your family jestrfyl. I know how I felt when my Dad passed away at 82 yrs. Glad you’re back and busy.

I don’t think we should judge what the Chinese does, and compare it to how the U.S. does. They have their own way of philosophy and their needs are different than ours in this period of time. As more democratic ideas and acceptance creeps into China they will change, but it is their country not ours to do with.

jestrfyl,
My heart goes out to you and yours on the loss of your father. 92? Not a bad stretch at all. Memories are precious, and as you probably know, the heart holds those forever. I know mine does with both my folks gone.
Am glad you are back, as your contributions here always add most interesting viewpoints, many if not most, I agree with.

Frankly, Henrietta, your attitude is worthy of nothing but sheer contempt. We have every right to criticize the way the leaders of other countries do things. We can’t excuse China’s restrictions on freedom because “their needs are different than ours.” We can’t excuse the often legal abuse of women in places like Saudi Arabia because “they have their own way.” You can’t excuse the fact that the Soviets sent Jews, Christians, and political criminals to the gulags just because they had a different philosophy. We are all moral agents and part of the same moral universe, and it is our moral duty to call out injustices when we see them.

“it is our moral duty to call out injustices when we see them”
But look at how few have called out Darfur. Look at how many have failed to call out, say, the priestly abuses against children because they thought priests should be respected. And on and on. A lot of injustices go without being called out by a lot of people. And when we’re calling them out we should give some thought to whether, viewed in the larger context, they are bad things.
I think the Saudi treatment of women is a bad thing and I see no redeeming social value to it. Likewise making people vanish because they have a different philosophy. (The case gets tougher if those people would seriously disrupt their society; then you need to balance the bad effects on the people and what you think of the society including, among several other things, how the society treats those who might disrupt it.) But there definitely is redeeming social value in the China case; far smaller population growth over a long time has made Chinese society considerably more successful and, of especial importance to us, it’s made the earth more livable than it would have been with a Devil-may-care Chinese population policy.
So I think it’s very harsh to say Henrietta’s attitude is “worthy of nothing but sheer contempt” because in fact everyone leaves injustices unnamed for one reason or another and what you call injustices in China many of us see as more good overall than bad.
I’d have to call your response to Henrietta an injustice.

“I’d have to call your response to Henrietta an injustice.” nnmns
Well said.

I have no idea what “we” you’re talking about, nnmns, but I make no hesitation to name injustices in Darfur or the crimes of child molestation by those in authority, or anything else like that, when the time and place calls for it. Obviously I don’t call out injustices that I don’t know exist, but that’s quite a bit different from saying that we have no right to criticize another country for the way it does things.
And your defense of China is NOT made on the same grounds as Henrietta’s comments. You are, in fact, criticizing China’s policies, even if your criticism comes up as a positive evaluation (an evaluation I can’t get behind, since it relies on a dangerous “ends justify the means” type of rationality that can easily lead to the justification of all sorts of serious abuses). Henrietta basically said it’s not our place to judge, but you’re judging, even if positively.
I’m sorry, but when cases of things like forced abortions and forced sterilizations for unmarried women and women who have already had children, cases of refusing to let religious organizations choose their own leaders and of cracking down on unauthorized religious groups, cases of censoring the Internet to guard against political dissent, and so on and so on, then I can’t do anything but name those things as injustices and criticize the monsters who do those things. And I simply cannot respect the opinion of anyone who says we have no right to criticize what goes on there just because we don’t happen to live there. As a matter of fact, I do know people who have lived in China, and they criticize these policies. Whose side am I to be on? The side of the government bureaucrats, or the side of the oppressed?

I admire the phrase “sheer contempt” Does that mean it drops off like a cliff or is it gossamer like lace? In either case, the contempt in question is not useful. Aren’t words and phrases funny when taken literally? This all sure amuses me.
China is certainly worthy of criticism, commentary, and complaint. However, the Vatican comes off like a toothless lion whose claws are chipped and broken and whose mane is thin and lank. Acting alone the representative will be comedic in all his finery and phrippery.
If the Vatican had chosen to seek support from other diverse religious authorities and groups there might have been a chance for this whole thing to move from comedy to political thriller. But they expect everyone to cower when they roar, even if the voice is weary and weak.
There is strength to coalitions and a dynamic in diversity that is harder to ignore. Perhaps if nothing else the Vatican will shame other religious groups – not only Christian – to join the chorus and remind the Chinese of the chant from our own shameful national events in 1968, “The whole world is watching! The whole world is watching”.

p.s. and henrietta,
Thanks for your condolences, too. As I wrote to nnmns, it means alot to hear from friends and know they are keeping tabs.