“Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., who sponsored the bill in the Senate, said historical references to God should not be censored for political correctness.”
I agree. They should be avoided out of common sense. They are divisive. Many of us don’t believe in any god, a few believe in multiple gods and of those who believe in one god, many don’t trust it. Do churches have fire insurance? I believe many do, but a church that trusted its god could save a lot of money on fire insurance. Do we have a military? Boy, do we ever! But a country that believed in one god would not feel any need for a military and could save an immense amount of money.
So in addition to the use of “we” being obviously false, the evidence is clear even the majority of Americans don’t really trust in a god.
What a silly thing to put on our money and in our visitor’s center!

Can’t wait to see what CK has to say about this one. Fun Fun.

About 15% of Americans do not believe in God. Just 15%. A small minority. Few Americans believe in multiple gods; the vast majority of Americans believe in one God. And the fact that my church carries insurance has nothing to do with our trust in God. Insurance is a practical matter. The churches in my circles have experienced the hand of God in many situations that underscore our faith in Him. Since only 15% of Americans are godless, it would be silly not to put references to God on our money and national institutions.

“About 15% of Americans do not believe in God. Just 15%. A small minority. Few Americans believe in multiple gods; the vast majority of Americans believe in one God.”
A majority of Americans are white, too. Is it OK for the government to put preferences for white citizens on our money and public buildings?

The lawsuit has no chance, of course, even though the principle behind it is legitimate. But aside from issues relating to church-state separation and fact that our nation was founded by people steeped in the ideas of the Age of Reason, not the dogma of Christian religiosity, I am perplexed by another question:
Why do people think that they must make a splashy, loud announcement of their religiosity? Do they think that will impress God? True faith is within; it requires no public proclamation.

exclude the 15% from what? that’s just plain stupid. attempting to cover up america’s heritage is a futile project.
H4C I know of no founder that claimed that religion “age of reasoning” jefferson may have but that was not the church service he frequented with others. There is no historical documents to support your “steeped” assertion. On the other hand the majority of the signers followed Calvin and Luther.

To clarify:
“Age of Reason” is the general term that describes the vibrant flowering of rational philosophy starting in the 17th century, exemplified by the writings of Descartes, Kant, Spinoza, and many others. Its extension, called “The Enlightenment” or “Age of Enlightenment” was marked by social and political changes throughout Europe and the emerging nation that would become the US. The emphasis was on reason and rationality rather than dogmatism and authoritarianism. These ideas are reflected in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

Then there is “The Age of Reason” by the great patriot Thomas Paine, which was very well received in the US. It was deistic, not atheistic, but most definitely not Christian. Notice the claim Jefferson and Franklin were deists but thought religion was valuable for “social control”. In other words, some perhaps several of the people you like to claim were Christian were not, but thought it was fine for other people. I think a fair bit of that still goes on.
cknuck you should read “The Age of Reason”. It’s ahead of its time and, as I recall, a good read.

I’m sure this has been brought up before in these debates, but just in case I’ll bring up the Treaty of Tripoli which was ratified unanimously by the US Senate and signed by the President in 1797, Article 11 of which states:
“Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion…”

John Adams and John Hancock: We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.
Samuel Adams:“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.”
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel.
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
“I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.”
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
George Washington:
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
Still not enough?

The more people build monuments and adorn buildings with phrases and symbols to their god, the less “religious” and the more “superstitious” they appear. America is starting to look like ancient Rome, with temples and alters every ten feet so people can pray for rain or prosperity.

Atheist continue their fight against people of faith. If they don’t believe in God then why does it bother them so much that we have in God we trust en-scribed on a wall. I think their should be a vote by the nation on this. Let the people decide as a nation, not a few who are intolerant of God or religious people, or should I say it? it might offend someone, yes I will say it; JESUS!. Atheist are so worried about being discriminated against, what about discriminating against Christians. We have a voice too! And it is much stronger than the atheist.

“Atheist are so worried about being discriminated against, what about discriminating against Christians. We have a voice too! And it is much stronger than the atheist.”
Exactly. The majority can do a lot more harm by means of the law to a minority than vice versa. Y’all are really pretty safe from being seriously discriminated against but atheists, homosexuals, Jews, Muslims, pagans and others are at a lot more risk. So pardon us if we squeak occasionally to let you know we’re here.

You know, Roger, any working society must protect its minorities from the majority on those occasions when it goes a little nuts. Otherwise the minorities feel they need to be able to defend themselves and/or get revenge and you can morph into a civil war that’s bad for everyone. And you might possibly think that, being in the majority you’d win. But a LOT of the brains of the nation are in the minorities and WMD’s are so easy to produce that in fact everyone would lose but America’s enemies.
This is absolutely not a threat, just a statement of fact. United we Stand, Divided we Fall.

“Freedom from Religion”? A foundation without a cause, if ever there was one! Might as well start one “Freedom from Philosophy” or, better, “Freedom from Freedom”.
No wonder their pointy little heads decided to use their freedom to quash the freedom of others. It’s all just so IRONIC.
But this is where a lost world is “at”. Self-consuming, wallowing in myriad mystical beliefs, without hope.
Speaking of hope, a famous self-consumed wallower called it “audacious”.
There is hope in none but God.
The message of God IS audacious to those without hope.
God’s message is a stumbling block.
That’s why they are trying to stop it.

“God’s message is a stumbling block.”
A stumbling block. An impediment. Something that resists forward progress. And we want this, willingly, as a symbol of our government? Etched into the very stone?
“We are God’s people, and we block the path of Freedom for All. We resist making this land a better place to live.”

The long list of pious quotes from historical figures is totally irrelevant. Such a list is the answer “No” to the question, “Is it true that the Founding Fathers were mainly atheists?” But that has never been the question. It is a straw-man — the rebuttal of a position that no one has taken.
The issue is not whether the Founding Fathers were Christians or deists, but whether they intended for America to be a secular nation (secular does NOT mean atheist) or a Christian theocracy. And while there may have been some among them who might have privately preferred a theocracy, the document they produced collectively — the Constitution — contains absolutely no mention of God, of Jesus, or of the Bible. Not one blessed word. And indeed, they saw fit to include a provision explicitly prohibiting the application of any kind of religious test as a qualification for holding public office.
There is no excuse for misrepresenting American history or resorting to straw-man arguments. Christian fundamentalists whine piteously about how they are under siege by evil atheists who are trying to outlaw religious freedom — when they are not pounding their chests in triumph about their unstoppable power.
Here is a clue. Having a religious motto engraved on a government building means one of two things: EITHER the activities conducted therein are on behalf of religion and in fact a specific type of religion OR it is so meaningless that it trivializes the use of God’s name.
Religious freedom is not about plaques on public buildings; it is about the freedom to worship if you wish and how you wish. No one is threatening that freedom unless your faith is one that demands that you make a loud public show of it.

my goodness Heretic, that was just…just PERFECT!! It won’t change any minds though. The “christians” believe that if they’re not allowed to write their religion on public spaces they are being persecuted. Think of the yells that would come from their side if someone wanted to put ‘praise be to allah’ in a public building. “Christians” in America are the very epitome of hypocrisy. To hell with equality, they’re “christian” so they’re better and can oppress every minority group because…because…well just because!! Their effort to make the US a theocracy would be hilarious if it wasn’t so horrifying.

GC: “Freedom from Religion? A foundation without a cause, if ever there was one!”
How slow we can be sometimes. It’s worth a lot to be free from religion. If you are not, it can force you to attend this and that service, to raise your children this or that way, to pay taxes and tithes for a religion you don’t believe in. We should all, including you if you had more sense, be thankful we are free from religion.
Oh, and it doesn’t mean without religion, though the founders and probably several of the members are. If you want to know more, check this out. And no, I’m not a member; atheists don’t tend to be joiners.

This is old I know, but I was raised to say the Pledge of A. without saying “under God”. It didn’t harm us at all. A real Christian feels God with him, and doesn’t need to oppress any others by insisting they say words they don’t mean. There is Fundamentalists that want a Theocracy, but there is now I’m finding out the Fundamentalists of “The Family” who don’t want a democracy, don’t want a theocracy, they want a “Kingdom”. Have to read “The Family”, guys and watch R.M.

18:For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19:For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]
20:Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21:For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22:Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23:but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24:but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25:For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

Would these people also have Declaration of Independence removed from our history due to the statement that men are created? If we cannot stand on our own Declaration, then we have wronged England. What would be the course of restitution for our actions? How can atheism claim that it is not a religion since it too places statements of acceptable behavior on humanity? One must be trained to be politically correct, not cross the boundaries, not pray; is this not religious brain-washing as well? Just as God said “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” does not atheism also claim a similar theme: “You shall not present any other religion before me”? It’s absurd to attempt to erase our own history at the hands of another religion.

“How can atheism claim that it is not a religion since it too places statements of acceptable behavior on humanity?”
So that’s how you define religion? That would make our laws all religions.
Does that mean that your duty as a religious person is to make sure everyone meets the standard of acceptable behavior or your particular religion? Pretty scary, Stevel.

“One must be trained to be politically correct, not cross the boundaries, not pray”
Actually when one realizes there’s no one UP THERE listening, not praying comes very naturally. May you come to that realization.

Steve, where are they asking to erase the past of our forefathers? They are saying, I think, that we are all Americans and have pledged our Allegiance to the United States of America; that we all have the rights that the Bill of Rights state, that we are all equal, that we all have freedom of religion, whatever that means to each citizen. This doesn’t seem to be a threat to anyone. It becomes a threat to people who are not Christian when Christians try to push eveyone into their mold. Extremism by Christians begets extremism in other people of other beliefs. Be truly thankful for all we in America have it’s existed for many years without people forcing their beliefs on everyone in America. Seventy years ago according to the history of the Fundamentalist movement, in the book “The Family”, started with people in the government not wanting the “New Deal” that Roosevelt started. It rolled from their and has morphed into different types of Fundamentalism.

My, my. How easily Heretics bruise when their own methods are used against themselves.
How about dreaming up a “new”, “progressive” logic that will allow you to hold your own against truth.
…uhhh, so sorry – there is no such thing possible.
The audacity of liberal “thought”.

H4C the average American did not even know who Descartes, Kant, Spinoza, was but they did know Jesus, so the Age of reasoning was little more than a religious movement that did not last and certainly didn’t outlast the bible.

Several Americans did know who the famous philosophers of the age are. And yes, probably most had heard of “Jesus” but we’ll never know for sure how many believed the fables. Apparently there was some hunger for the deist perspective.

Roger:
Postings that consist entirely of Bible quotes are a violation of Beliefnet ROC; it is also a silly way to try to communicate with people who regard the Bible as a fossilized set of human writings that has become an object of worship; and finally, it is intellectually lazy.
SteveL:
Atheism does not dictate how people should and should not behave, or even what people should and should not believe. It is personal issue involving non-believe in any supernatural being and a desire not to be bothered by people who do believe in supernatural beings.
cknuck:
The Age of Reason was not a religious movement at all; it was an era of intellectual awakening throughout Europe and the New World. You are undoubtedly correct that the average American was and is far more likely to know the name Jesus than to know the names of the great Enlightenment philosophers–but those philosophers were very well known and highly regarded by the well educated individuals we have come to know as the Founding Fathers. As for whether the Age of Reason has lasted, yes it has — the emergence of secular democracies in place of the old theocratic monarchies throughout the western world shows us that the influence of those ideas has been vast.
And finally, GodsCountry:
Your ravings have now sunk to the level of absolute incoherence. I have no clue as to what your last message was trying to say, and no further interest. Good day to you, sir.

H4C it takes more blind faith egotism to be an atheist than a Christian, so it is a religion that dictates to its followers to deny any existence of God. It also boasts of an understanding of creation, life, death, time and the universe. It also submits that man is capable of governing himself morally without spiritual guidance. Like it or not atheism operates on unproven principles, very religious.

cknuck,
Atheism has many faces, just as religion does. Some atheists are as dogmatic and militant as any fundamentalist believer, and they preach against belief in the supernatural. But among the hundreds of atheists I have known personally in my life, that was very much the exception. Most do not have or seek “followers”; belief or non-belief is, to them, a personal matter, no one else’s business. In other words, the great majority of atheists I have known would say “I don’t believe in God.” A small minority would say, “I don’t believe in God, and anyone who does believe in God is an irrational dunce.” Frankly, I have no more use for the latter than I have for those who would seek to turn America into a Christian theocracy.

“it takes more blind faith egotism to be an atheist than a Christian, so it is a religion that dictates to its followers to deny any existence of God. It also boasts of an understanding of creation, life, death, time and the universe. It also submits that man is capable of governing himself morally without spiritual guidance. Like it or not atheism operates on unproven principles, very religious.”
It certainly doesn’t take more blind faith to be an atheist. If there were a god around flaunting its powers or even existence then it would take blind faith or obstinacy to be an atheist. But there’s no god even raising its head. It’s really easy to deny the existence of a god when there’s no evidence for a god.
As for an understanding of creation, life, death, time and the universe, that’s being worked on. We get it from the same source rational religionists get most of their understanding: science. Those who take it solely from, say, the Bible tend to die young, not use computers and not interact well with the real world. We (many of us, at least) just don’t fill in the gaps with baseless fantasies; we’re more likely to say “I don’t know. Check back in a few years.”
And yes, mankind is capable of governing itself without spiritual guidance. Morally? Once in a while. But that was the case when religious empires ruled the world, too. I see no sign religions rule better and lots of signs religious governments turn into dictatorships. Democracy (in various forms) is sloppy and often wrong but it seems to be the best system we know of.
Just what are the “unproven principles” we operate on, cknuck?

Ultimately the real matter is when we die. If God is not real, then I have lost nothing, but if he is real, I have been wise to put my faith in him.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Not sure God would WANT God’s name on a public monument which might indicate that God endorses everything the nation does in God’s name! If the nation did trust in God we’d be better off. Instead we have trusted in politicians, banks, insurance companies…

nnmns quote, “Those who take it solely from, say, the Bible tend to die young, not use computers and not interact well with the real world.”
nnmns there are so many white haired saints in my church it will make your head spin, all people who have lived rich long lives serving God. Get you facts right at least if you are going to preach atheist then tell the truth.

cknuck: “there are so many white haired saints in my church…”
Yes and I’ll bet most of them have seen doctors now and then.
Roger: “Ultimately the real matter is when we die. If God is not real, then I have lost nothing, but if he is real, I have been wise to put my faith in him.”
Which god would that be, Roger? Lots of gods people believe in get upset at worshiping the wrong god. Assuming there is a god, the odds you are worshiping it are quite small, given how many there are that different people worship. Heck, scratch a Catholic and a Methodist and each probably, privately, doubts the other will show up in heaven, let alone the Sunni and the Shia, or the Hindu or … .
Then there are the gods that let everyone into whatever passes for heaven and the ones that only let in a very few and those being pre-ordained.
No, Roger, I don’t think you increase your odds much by picking a god and you live a life believing in something out of fear and without evidence to support it.
l’ll take my approach of believing what seems reasonable to me based on evidence and lack thereof.

I’d like to say that I couldn’t care less whether the “Founding Fathers” were religious. If they were, it just shows that they weren’t as smart as people think they were.
They were also slave-owners. Should we revert back to having slavery in our country? After all, the “Founding Fathers” thought it was alright…

I have always known God, don’t know why, it is a mystery and I’m content to not examine it. God exists. He set the world up and we have life and the Bible is a teacher but not a Dictator. What we do with our lives and how we interact with people, animals, nature is up to each person. What happens after death, when our spirits leave this earth is up to our Creator. This works for me, and the people in my life that left before me.

nnmns: I believe their is one true God. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He refered to himself to Moses as the I AM. But he is also known by many many other names:ELOHIM, EL SHADDAI, ADONAI, JEHOVAH, EL, JEHOVAH-JIREH, JEHOVAH-NISSI, JEHOVAH-SHALOM, SHEPHERD, THE FIRST AND LAST, the ALPHA and OMEGA, and to many more to list. I do not live my life out of fear as some nonbelievers may suspect, but out of reverence and respect.
I am not going to be able to convince you that their is a God, neither will you convince me that their is no God. We both have our own opinions and our freedom to voice those opinions.

Darkness is overcome by light.
The frustrations here are palpable.
Darkness, widely proclaimed by liberal “thinkers” simply cannot overcome the light of truth and rely on rhetorical argument and rhetorical devices in their vain attempt to win the day.
They win the night, instead.
…and a Good day to you, too, sir!
The audacity of liberal “argument”.

(I like this comment, made earlier, so I’ll post it again);
“Either God exists and humanity has accepted God’s revelation or God exists and humanity has not accepted God’s revelation.
(some will not see the logic here because the statement is faith-based – GodsCountry)
God’s community can no longer accommodate activism against revealed truth.
No more compromises.
The world is degenerating and needs truth.
Advanced degrees, personal experience and rhetorical devices do not truth make.
God is truth. God is love.
Love God, love truth.
Love your neighbor, tell them the truth.
The audacity of liberal disbelief.”

GC you are terminally boring. And by re-posting the same drivel over and over I suspect you invite having posts removed.

The more insistent these demands for public displays of faith, and the more loudly the faithful shout “Lord! Lord!” the more I am convinced that they actually have no faith and dare not admit it, even to themselves. True faith requires no external validation.

“True faith requires no external validation”.
That’s true…if you are God doing the validation.
For mankind; they shall be known by their works.
Many who post here are empty, hungry for truth.
God said “feed my sheep”.
He meant believers, but there is plenty left for anyone who will listen.
Public displays of faith by the faithful are works, the evidence of faith.
Works, however, are all the faithless see.
But, they are one and the same and from the same God.

I’ll see your drivel and raise you three nonsensical statements!
You’ll win! Hands down!
But I do not take your criticism lightly. Oh no. I adore it. I adore it because your rejection is my validation.
Truth is subject to acceptance or rejection.
You reject it, vehemently.
It is very powerful truth…

“But I do not take your criticism lightly. Oh no. I adore it. I adore it because your rejection is my validation.”
Here’s a guy who ignores criticism and a chance to learn because he’s off in his own dream. And thanks to the power of the Internet he gets to bore tens, maybe hundreds of people with it.

nnmns,
Waste of time. There is no one home in GodsCountry, just a tape-recorder playing a looped message over and over. It is the same as trying to argue with creationists — they aren’t hearing you, because their own shouted dogma drowns out everything else.

In case anyone is still around, here’s a story about the residents of “the prayer house”, a residence for religious conservative politicians in Washington.

“In an ‘alienation of affection’ lawsuit, former Rep. Charles W. Pickering Jr.’s estranged wife, Leisha, alleges that he carried on an extramarital affair with a onetime college sweetheart while he lived at a house at 133 C Street in Southeast Washington. Sen. John Ensign, R-Nev., and Gov. Mark Sanford, R-S.C., both of whom admitted to cheating on their wives in recent weeks, are members of the Christian fellowship of lawmakers known as ‘C Street’ for the address of the house where several of the members live at any given time.”

It makes you wonder why anyone would trust a religious conservative.

Pointing to bad behavior kind does not excuse bad behavior. When ones neighbor molests the neighborhood children, do you point and say, “Hey! Look at that! I’m going out to rob a bank!”.
No.
Because there are people who make mistakes who are also confessed believers or “conservatives” does not excuse you to make up all kinds of fallacious beliefs.

I’m pointing out that being a religious conservative gives you no foundation to claim to be able to tell us about morality. If you want to preach on immorality you’ll have to document what you say, and just saying it’s in the Bible doesn’t work because people have been lying about what’s in the Bible a lot. And anyway the Bible has no claim to being a particularly moral book.
So if you want to preach to us, find a real foundation and base your preaching on that and explain the connection, like several folks here often do.

Nnmns the senators that you just mentioned are members of “The Family”.

Henrietta perhaps they are already enjoying the power they foresee from the theocracy they want to institute.
GC where do you get off complaining when I comment on conservatives, with your incessant carping at liberals. You apparently don’t even realize when you are 180 degrees inconsistent with yourself.

Nnmns read the book “The Family” by Jeff Sharlett. They don’t want a Theocracy or a Democracy they want a King-Dom. It’s very interesting.

Henrietta I came across this article in Harper’s by Sharlett. Possibly you referred us to it earlier. It’s long, and I haven’t finished it yet, but fascinating.
Thanks.

Human morality, in it’s entirety, originates from God.
Some say “no”.
There is no proof either way, if one has no faith.
The wonders of the universe, the truth of the Bible, even love itself, are all evidence that lead toward faith. But faith, alone, is the evidence that finally enlightens a soul enough to see God.
But one must first have faith.
You do not proclaim faith in anything but your own intuition and imagination. Many are without faith and many are in just as much darkness.
Some day you will see.
Right now, you cannot.

GC (up to now, I have refrained from using your initials because of the sordid connotations of that abbreviation — look it up if you don’t know — but now I think you have earned any association people may make between your name and a disease state):
You an arrogant piece of work. How DARE you presume to tell other people what they do and do not see? Your very words, filled with ceaseless hatred, display the rank darkness within you. I am in a dark state at this moment, as I write these words in a fit of anger — but I’ll be over my anger at you very soon, and there will be only pity. You, I fear, will remain trapped in your own darkness forever.

Some see God’s light (and understand God’s truth) and some do not.
Those who do not see want no one else to see. Those who see want everyone else to see as well.
Atheists want nothing to do with trusting God and want no one else to even see the words “In God We Trust”.
Atheist’s don’t know God or see God’s light, how can they so adamantly oppose God? Those who say there is no God have only people to be angry with, so I understand your rage.
People have extraordinary and bizarre ways and are prone to believe almost anything. Some say God exists. Some say there is no God.
I say God exists.

…God is truth. God is love.
Love God, love truth.
Love your neighbor, tell them the truth…
You are my neighbor.

GC,
I, too, say God exists — but God is not that chronically dyspeptic, vanity-driven mass murderer described in the Bible. Indeed, to God as I know God from direct experience — not from what some Bible-besotted preacher shouts — one of the least important things is whether a person believes in God. We are indeed known by our fruits, our acts. Only dogma-driven automaton could claim that those wise words of Jesus really mean that we are known by how loudly we proclaim trinitarian doctrine and how many people we can convince, coerce, or connive into accepting it.
You are entitled to believe any kind of maltheistic blasphemy you wish — you have lots of company in a world in which most people have been seduced and indoctrinated into believing that God is an external superbeing, Santa Claus-cum-Zeus bestowing rewards for “good” people and hurling thunderbolts at “bad” people. You are NOT entitled to tell other people what they do and do not see. You are NOT entitled to appoint yourself the Faith Police.
If you are my neighbor, then follow the advice about neighbors — the original advice of Hillel (That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow) or the paraphrase attributed to Jesus (Treat others as you would wish to be treated). Unless you would WANT your neighbor to insult your intelligence every day, refrain from doing that to others. And do not respond that a good neighbor WILL pound on your door at night and wake you up to warn you that your house is on fire — the analogy is powerful but meaningless, for a fire is an objectively demonstrable danger that anyone can appreciate, whereas your maltheistic theology lies entirely within your own thoughts with no shred of supportive objective evidence.
In short, GC, believe what you want, blaspheme against God as you see fit, and feel free to tell others that you worship a monster-god who destroys those who do not worship it — but do not presume to act like the sighted man in the country of the blind, because you are not qualified.

Now shall we see the depth of the liberal argument, for I shall use it.
Ready?
Here goes!
You are wrong!
You are stupid!
You are bigoted!
You blasphemer!
You must not believe what you believe!
But, let’s move on.
When discussing mutually exclusive worldviews there is no common ground, by definition.
I present the best I have to offer.
Some present arguments like the above.
The only way to understand the essential truth of my argument is through the eyes of faith. You do not have those eyes.
You’ve called God more names than you’ve called me, for Petes’ sake.

My vote will go to those politicians who fight for the right to place the phrase “In God We Trust” anywhere and, hopefully, everywhere it can make a difference.

GC,
Are you so blindly bigoted that you can’t even read? I have never called God any names — not God as I know God. My criticism has been directed at that mythical god described in the Bible. That is not God; that is an imaginary monster. But if you are a bibliolater — that is, if your primary faith is in the Bible rather than in God — then you will accept the Biblical depictions of God, blasphemous as they are. I am not a bibliolater, and I do not believe in monster-gods.
I have more respect for the Maltheists than for conventional Bible-based religion. They start out with the same wrong premise — that God is accurately described in the Bible — and they therefore accept the same disgusting beliefs about God, but at least they are honest enough not to hide from the logical conclusion based on those beliefs, that God is evil. Conventional religion accepts those beliefs — that is, accepts that God does things that we would justly abhor if done by a human ruler — and then hypocritically praises God for his “holiness.” (Perhaps you have heard something about calling good things evil and evil things good?)
You really should stop and ask yourself how clearly you are seeing the truth, as you claim, if you can’t even read plain English without mangling its meaning.

…nicely done! Proves my points, one and all.

Sure it does, GC, sre it does! Stuck on the “same ole, same ole”, GC. You’re entitled to your opinion, but so are others. You aren’t any more “right” than anyone else. Thus freedom “from” religion in this country is the best way to go, IMO.

I invite all who visit to read the above commentaries.
There is no rational way one who denies God can legitimately speak for God or simply make up a new “god”.
All will see the truth.
There is joy in knowing truth.
I also invite everyone to share in the joy.

If America was founded on christian beliefs why is there even a separation of church and state. My ancestors came here to escape religious persecution. I personally think its a little unfair to people who have multiple gods or no god. People of every religion should have the same rights as my ancestors did because that’s what our country was supposed to of been founded on.