This issue of contraception shouldn’t be in our government, it concerns R.C., and they are selecting to plan their families, as most thinking families do anywhere, except China.

“Abstinence prevents abortion”
Hah! Abstinence fails regularly. If it worked everyone would be using it because it’s cheap and always available, but most people aren’t using it because it just fails.
And perhaps the RCC hierarchy pushes it, and the rhythm method, because they fail a lot and new potential Catholics keep getting born.

“And perhaps the RCC hierarchy pushes it, and the rhythm method, because they fail a lot and new potential Catholics keep getting born.”
Perhaps atheists resist the church because it represents someone they don’t believe exists.
Resistance, in this case, has taken the form of, 1) setting up the straw man “the RCC hierarchy pushes it” then 2) attacks the straw man by adding a sarcastic bit to clinch just how devious the RCC really is.
Everyone needs to know God is being attacked, by people who don’t even believe God exists.
The predominant way they “roll” is demonstrated above.
Yes, abstinence is the only 100 percent way to deal with procreation when one does not intend to procreate.
If it is not 100 percent effective, then we are talking about something else, because if there is procreation it wasn’t abstinence.
Sort of like being a little pregnant.
Atheists have no where to put their faith, but in themselves. Therefore, they project their own failures onto others. Yet another technique to deride faith. As in; “Hah! Abstinence fails regularly…”and so on.

Well, let’s try for just a tiny bit of reality here. The point is not that abstinence, per se, fails, but that depending on abstinence is unrealistic. The statistics on this point are unchallengeable.
The religious moralist may say, “That just proves that people are sinful.” Whatever. There is a genuine, real-world problem happening, and programs that teach and preach abstinence as the solution to the problem have consistently failed.
This is really not about sin at all; it is about living in the real world. Unfortunately, some people would rather yell “Sinner!” than look for workable solutions to real problems.

Yes, I’m a “yeller”. “Old Yeller” sounds good…
Up to that point this post made sense and I’d agree with the previous points made.
Except a minor tweak; I believe that all programs have failed to slow the procreative rush. Discipline is the shortfall of any program.
Abstinence, if it is practiced in good faith, is as good as any program.

Urging abstinence as part of an education program for young people we hope haven’t had sex yet is fine as long as it’s backed up with knowledge about how to use various kinds of contraceptives and their advantages and disadvantages. But that seems to be too much realism for some parents.
And abstinence for those, of any age, who have already engaged in sex is a fantasy. We can certainly push for monogamy or perhaps serial monogamy but again there must be education about and availability of real contraception.
Now if we could get past blathering about atheists and liberals we could have an actual productive conversation.

And, of course, this is assuming the only ones who need contraception or who could end up needing an abortion IS some unmarried teenagers.
Are you proposing that abstinence be the choice offered the married mother of four who wants to be sure she remains the mother of four and not end up the mother of ten?
We aren’t talking sex ed here, we’re talking contraception.

Oh, and GCC, the ‘fails’ comment included the Rhythm method. You should know, you included that in the quote.
“And perhaps the RCC hierarchy pushes it, and the rhythm method, because they fail a lot and new potential Catholics keep getting born.”
And if you don’t think that they know that, ooh, yeah, they call it the NFP now, that it still fails, and they know it does to a large extent, then you haven’t been reading that atheist, liberal website called..mm.. ‘Catholicity’ and their recent round of articles from some of the big Catholic publications and journals, the titles of which include..
H. Crocker III: Making Babies – A Very Different Look at Natural Family Planning
“Use NFP: It Doesn’t Work!” http://www.catholicity.com/commentary/crocker/04828.html
Which says, pretty much, exactly what was said. Yeah, it fails, and we get more souls to raise, and that’s a good thing.
(Except for the legitimate reasons you may have had for NOT wanting to have a child at that point.)

Wow, Karen that’s a lot more truth than some people here will be able to swallow. Thank you.

“I am not sure how the church can reconcile their two positions,” said Rep. Tim Ryan, an anti-abortion Ohio Democrat, and a Catholic”
It’s like the guy never went to CCD. These poorly catechized Catholics drive me up the wall.
The Church “reconciles” the two positions by believing that sex is only for marriage and Catholic marriage is inherently always open to new life. Also, the Church teaches family planning by way of “Natural Family Planning”.
The Church doesn’t change with the wind and decide its truth by popular vote. If someone cannot bring themselves, in good conscience, to believe in what the Church teaches (assuming they bothered to find out in the first place), then they should think about joining a different faith.
The approach many take now is akin to joining a Protestant congregation and then insisting on 7 Sacraments and a statue of Mary close to the altar. That goes against the core of Protestantism, just as birth control and abortion go against the core of Catholicism.
One of these days, maybe Congressman Ryan will go through the trouble of refreshing his memory on the basics of our Faith. If he can’t deal with them, then he’s free to join Obama’s new church.

No blathering. Truth.
Atheistic liberals have no truth basis and with no truth basis it is impossible to judge what is good and what is evil. Freethinking just won’t do it.
Why is procreation “good”? Why are my ideas “evil”?
Anecdotes, statistics, imaginative thought and rhetoric are not sufficient to base life-choices upon.
Analyze your arguments. Don’t have to tell anyone. See what’s at the foundation. Another freethinker. Statistics. Political ideology. Anecdotal evidence.
Discover your truth source…
I have one, and to you I recommend the same.
God.

(reprise)
God’s community can no more accommodate activism against revealed truth.
No more compromises.
The world is degenerating and needs truth.
Advanced degrees, personal experience and rhetorical devices do not truth make.
God is truth. God is love.
Love God, love truth.
Love your neighbor, tell them the truth.
The audacity of liberal disbelief.

Does NFP work?
The answer is NFP is “workable”.
To be honest, a typical couple of 24 year-olds will not abstain 8 straight days a month with no orgasmic contact during this 8 day fertility window for years on end to get this 96%-99% effectiveness of NFP. They simply will not do that. This 8 days of abstinance is something that maybe 34 year olds can almost do, especially if they already have several children. The problem for 34 year olds getting there is that people are creatures of habit. People on systemic contraception in their early 20′s get set in their ways and even people who rely on barrier contraception for every act are almost the same. Any mention of NPF is impossible for most after several years even if the marriage is falling apart, and especially if the marriage is falling apart. So how to you get to where you want to go when you are in 20′s; to be almost latex free in 8-10 years.
Yes we have to expect some concessions for youth. Mixed methods with fertility awareness and some barrier use until the barriers (condoms and diaphrams) wean off withing 5-10 years like training wheels of a toddlers bicycle. NFP trainees using fertility awareness as a base with some cheating with latex. Or maybe some oral sex as a barrier substitute (euphamistically called “sensual massage”). NFP may not work but it is workable. Remember NFP is a behavioral plan, not a contraption or drug.
The main thing is to be gong in the right direction. God is not striking people down for singular acts like ONAN did, but since contraception is a slow poison that causes a lot of unseen damage (as Carl Jung declared) we have to do damage control.

Well, GC, here we are at a new discussion board, and again I see that the topic of the board really makes no difference — whatever the topic happens to be, you deliver the same tired rant against “atheistic liberals.” The very fact that your postings are incoherent in their resentment about a group of people that you clearly do not know or understand tells me that the one guiding you to “truth” is not God but Ann Coulter.

You don’t have to accomodate, personally. This is about what other people are allowed to do, who aren’t of your faith. (Including non-liberals and non-atheists. You do know that you don’t have to be an atheist to be fine with artificial contraception, right?)
Are you saying that the government should legislate behavior of non-Catholics using the Catholic catechism as their guide?

The community of God, whatever it’s local or general name (church, Roman Catholicism, etc) is responsible to dispense truth as they see it.
Like most of these comments, truth is subject to interpretation.
The community of God understand truth, applies it to everyday life (including procreation and it’s control) and no one has to follow.
Debating whether they are right or wrong is an empty, pointless exercise.
Take it or leave it.
Truth is knowable and sufficient to provide the means of living a life God intends.
There is a difference between the positions of God’s family and the views of everyone else.
Until you have become a part of the body, don’t try to be it’s eyes.
You will fail.
Once again, I believe in god;
God is truth, God is love, love God, love your neighbor, tell them the truth.
It does get old trying to reconcile the irreconcilable, but as long as there are attempts to mislead people, I will enlighten with truth.

“The community of God, whatever it’s local or general name (church, Roman Catholicism, etc) is responsible to dispense truth as they see it.”
That apparently doesn’t include the truth about priests abusing children, since the Pope, then Bishop Ratzinger instructed every bishop in the world to hide all such information.
And that apparently doesn’t include the truth that “Natural Family Planning” really doesn’t work very well as was pointed out above. And so forth.
The “Community of God” has a very strange idea of truth, one more concerned with butts in seats than explaining the world or helping the believers.

The community of God understand truth, applies it to everyday life (including procreation and it’s control) and no one has to follow.
Yes, that is rather the point. I think that has something to do with this concept called ‘Free Will’. Anyway, we aren’t talking about the ‘Community of God’. We are talking about the community called the ‘United States’, which includes people who worship all sorts of gods, and none at all. And the thing called the ‘government’, and secular laws.
So, the question is asked again. Do you think that GOVERNMENT (not the ‘Community of God’), should LEGISLATORS be making US law using the Catholic cathechism as their guide, even when that law covers those who are not Catholic?

Politicians may use astrology to help them write a bill or decide to vote for or against a bill, consult atheists, voodoo practitioners, play rock, paper, scissors or flip coins – they are just as free as you and me.
Even to use the catechism.
We would be far better off, too.

Liberal freethinkers need a power base from which to enact progressive ideology.
Seems free-thought is worth every penny. The only power mustered is anger. Angry, angry, angry. Especially when confronted with something other than slobbering subservience to the power of their “ideas”.
BHO just called a local police department “stupid”.
No hope there.

Wow, psychic enough to know what someone is feeling, over the internet. How does your faith feel about use of divination like that? Personally, I’m not angry at all. Indeed, I’m pretty amused, if anything. I’ve taken to just mentally substituting any use of ‘atheist’ or ‘liberal’ with ‘boogeyman’… seems to end up with the same meaning, interestingly enough.
Any way, I didn’t ask you what they are free to do, I asked you if you think they SHOULD be using the Catholic catechism and to legally mandate Catholic dogma for non-Catholic US citizens. Interesting list you have there, though. I don’t think we’ve had anyone openly use astrology since Nancy Reagan.
As for myself, I kind of prefer my politicians to use the desires and needs of their constituents, pragmatism, and the Constitution when deciding what laws to pass.
Of course, your mileage may vary.

“Angry, angry, angry…”?
You must be looking into a mirror, GC. Everything you post bristles with anger and resentment. “Liberals” are to you what blacks and Jews are to the Ku Klux Klan — an all-purpose target of hatred.

Roman Catholic doctrine and dogma has been a constant source of truth. Of course, when fallible folks try to adhere faithfully, they sometimes falter. God revealed truth to humanity from the git-go and those who follow God try to live in truth.
The ideas that are debated here, like so-called birth control and societal trends that deviate from more faithful measures, are next to meaningless because there is no way to accommodate the multiplicity of unfaithful, novel views. No compromise is possible when dealing with absolutes.
Deconstruct “progressive” arguments, analyze them, and there is no “there” there.
Faith has it’s reasons and it’s source in God. God has revealed a way to live, timeless and unchanging. It is people who make mistakes, mistakes rightly pointed out by critics.
But God makes no mistake.
The audacity of unfaithful arguments is clear.

GC, President Obama did not call the Cambridge Police Dept. stupid, he said the actions of the policeman was stupid. Washington Post had a minute to minute inactment of Professor Gates very eventful return to his home after being abroad making a documentary about “Faces of America”. After reading it once again it is apparent that Police anywhere do not know how to enteract with the people they are trying to protect. All Police should have had a course in Police Ethics, and Human Behavior before becoming a policeman. If they have they should have refresher courses, because there too many problems popping up all over the U.S. in this type of thing.

the word should have been interact.

“What I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there’s a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately,” Obama said. “That’s just a fact.”
Prejudicial bias in it’s purest form. Who is the racist here? 2010 cannot come fast enough. Thank God for mid-term elections.

GC, it isn’t prejudicial bias by Obama. Like you say truth is truth. I watched many acts of prejudice on the east coast, and down in Atlanta in my young years. Fought it where I could. It’s better now, but it crops up here and there still. It still has to be knocked down when it pops up. Read a comment from the NYTimes from an New Englander who said, “I was raised to be prejudiced, have known it to be wrong for years, and I still fight against what I was raised to believe and now feel I’m a better person for doing so.” If she can do so can everyone, but first you have to recognize it for what it is, in order to change.

I’m not quite sure where you were going while talking about doctrines and absolutes, and debate, for that matter. My question was quite simple, and still unanswered.
Do you think that US politicians should be legally enforcing Catholic doctrine upon non-Catholic citizens?

May Catholics ever be at odds with the ways of the world. The flesh is weak, truth is strong and overcomes the weakness.
Trust God, trust age-old doctrine of the church, trust anything but the misleading and deadly statements made by some in these pages.

Trust your mind, certainly not the church that brought us all those abuses of the children in their care and is now led by the former bishop who commanded that knowledge of those abuses be hidden.

I noticed you still didn’t answer the question. Guess you aren’t going to.

Catholics who use their smarts and realize that no dude in Rome should be telling them how and when to plan their families, use “artificial” birth control, in order to feed/clothe and house their PLANNED children. Even those folks in Italy use birth control…and Benny lives there…so how effective is he even in the land of Vatican? No method of “artificial” birth control is perfect, but they certainly are more reliable than NFP.

…SO THEY SHOULD LISTEN TO AN ANONYMOUS PAGAN INSTEAD??????!!
I don’t think so…

….SO SHOULD THEY LISTEN TO AN ANONYMOUS PAGAN INSTEAD???????!!
GodsCountry
But of course, my friend, but of course. Better than a ton of unwanted kids…or abortions to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Birth control equals fewer abortions…common sense, no matter who says it.
Perhaps you’re willing to feed, clothe and shelter the many, many children all over the world that folks have thrown out, or perhaps your divine being will do that…but she/he hasn’t done so, far as I can tell.
Have a good night.

…thanks!
And to you I say; “Enter the light of day!” and bask in it’s righteous purity.
Good day!

God’s Country: “…..”Enter the light of day!” and bask in it’s righteous purity.”
Did that a long time ago. ) But thanks for that thought. Life is good. I have no complaints.

BTW, GC, you didn’t mention whether you are willing to feed, clothe, and house all those children born who are abused/unwanted. Are you? Also, is your “divine being” going to do so? OR does it actually make sense to use “artificial” birth control to prevent those unwanted/unplanned pregnancies? You certainly must be able to see that birth control (even though sometimes unrelible) are preferrable to abortions or unwanted children. Can you comment on this without referring to the “good” book?

If you believe there is no God, why does it matter how large a population or how hungry?
Humanity is hopeless. Huge proportions of it believe in harmful myths and those that don’t are historically just as bad. Wars, disease, famine, rape, murder, bigots and racists, orphans and widows, power-hungry “leaders”…charity, love, hope, self-sacrifice, Mom and Dad, freedom, poetry, music and dance – but still, nothing here but a mote in space with matter somehow animated by energy.
It matters only if you believe there is a solid reason for it to matter, or your opinions are only as good as the opinions of; Ghengis Khan or Stalin or Son of Sam or Jesus Christ or Ghandi or Pelosi or Palin or Plato.
If there is a reason, anything, that makes feeding hungry kid’s, saving lives, procreation, all that you claim to be “good”, actually good things to do, then you have to point to a standard, a benchmark, something that will not make feeding hungry kids a waste of time in some future ideology, when consensus will have changed.
Ideologies come and go. Philosophies underpin every human endeavor, including some of the most horrifying.
Consensus does change. Everything changes. History proves there are some good things and some bad things, but it depends upon who is reading it as to which is which.
There is an established benchmark, a rock to build upon, an unchanging, guiding light.
God does not change.

So, why is a hungry child necessarily a bad thing?

Why are some Catholic priests evil?

“”Abstinence prevents abortion”
It would if people would/could abstain. They won’t/can’t, so abstinence only is obviously not the answer.

Well, GC, you certainly have a pessimistic outlook on life. What’s with the “humanity is hopeless” bit? Glad my outlook is much better, as I don’t think “humanity is hopeless”. Also you seem to think that if someone doesn’t believe in your “divine being” then they have no compassion, love, caring etc. for other human beings. What an arrogant attitude. Just because I don’t believe in “GOD” I’m not supposed to care or am incapable of caring for my fellow human beings on the planet. So wrong you are.
My basis for caring HAS to be based on something solid? What would “solid” mean? God? That would be “no”. That something solid was my parents teaching, and their parents teaching etc. down though the generations.
Why does overpopulation matter? Hello! I really think you can answer that yourself….too many people…and not enough food in too many cases in some countries. Too many kids and and some die just because they have parents who can’t feed them, or worse…kill them because they weren’t wanted to begin with…but weren’t allowed to terminate (RCC rules and some others) no access to birth control (again the RCC and some others) etc.
The ideal would be wanted children and plenty of food AND birth control to prevent unwanted/unplanned pregnancies, but if needed, clean, safe terminations.
Stupid question, BTW…why is a humgary child necessarily a bad thing? And why are some Catholic priests “evil”? Because they are really no differnt than anyone else…good and “evil” (your word) are in all of us. The fact that they represent THE church allows them to suck their victims into comfort (kids were at one time told the Priest was “special”) and then use that to prey on them. Why? any number of reasons…none valid.

Thank you for the first-hand illustration. It is a perfect companion to my question;
“If you believe there is no God, why does it matter how large a population or how hungry?”
Anyone who wishes may now understand the significance not only of my question’s effect on pagan thought processes, but also insight into those thought processes.
Read both entries carefully.
A “teachable moment.”
The audacity of Liberal thought.

Whatever, GC, whatever. Not sure that you made any sense, but does it really matter? No.

Well, “back at you!”.
The power of concise argument!