Church-State Divide Looms for Episcopalians on Gay Marriage

There is nothing honest about homosexual marriage it is in fact a contradiction in husband and wife. TEC can change all they want to about what is scared but they are no longer a church that follows Christ. Christ not only never married homosexuals but He was very clear in His descriptions of marriage and His boundaries in sexuality.

If we are to believe the Bible, Christ never once used the word "homosexual" or any equivalent. For a representative of an all-knowing being telling posterity how to live he sure was sloppy, especially if we are to also believe he gave a hoot about homosexuality.

Cknuck, love is honest if it's love. To put people asunder is called a wrong doing or as you say sin. Did anyone say science when Christ walked this earth? Did they? People who were epiliptic were thought to have devils inside them. Some Fundamentalists are still trying to beat them out of people in the U.S. and probably elsewhere. Time to get real.

Well I'm sorry about my spelling, horrors, epileptic not epiliptic.

forgot my name getting used to my new laptop

This is what comes from a top-down hierarchical system. The clergy are waiting for others to make these important spiritual and pastoral decisions for them. They are well educated, well prepared, and most likely well respected. It is time for them to write their own liturgy and let the hierarchy catch up to them. They know their congregations, they know the members coming to them to be married or covenanted, they know their won style. It is indeed time to do their own work and not wait for the clanking machinery of church bureaucracy to make what will surely be less-than-satisfying recommendations. This is what comes from putting more faith in an institution than they have in their own God given abilities to care, to serve, and to lead. Either that, or they want someone to hide behind if they are forced to defend their own convictions.

They are asking for a stallion and are sure to get a platypus, if ya know what I mean. (And I am personally a big fan of playpae)

Jestrfyl,

"They know their congregations..."

And if we were talking about a Congregationalist church that would be the end of it, since the Congregationalists believe each congregation has a right to govern itself, independent from other churches.

But we're talking about Episcopalians, and each church is "a constituent member of the Anglican Communion, a Fellowship within the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, of those duly constituted Dioceses, Provinces, and regional Churches in communion with the See of Canterbury, upholding and propagating the historic Faith and Order as set forth in the Book of Common Prayer."

Individual parishes don't have the right to simply do as they please.

Pat you need to stop promoting that lie about the original writings it is wrong, God is very clear about homosexuality. I feel sorry for people like you looking for loopholes almost like a shady lawyer. In both Old Testament and New Testament it is very clear what God tells us concerning marriage and sexuality and it is very clear concerning homosexuality and God’s distain for the activity.

Ck, Why should I read more? You should read more, preferably what the American Medical Societies have to say about the GLBT.

I'm still of the opinion that the Episcopalians should cut ties with the Anglicans and move on. And while the American Anglicans have a right to their religious beliefs, I find it more than a little disturbing they're siding with countries like Nigeria, where homosexuality is a crime punishable by death. Why isn't the Anglican church discussing that? Please give me an answer. I'd love to hear how not speaking out against government sanctioned murder is acceptable to Jesus, but two people who love each other forming a lifetime relationship is just plain immoral, darn it.

YN quote: “God is very ambiguous about homosexuality”
That is a lie because God is not ambiguous about anything, the God I know is very clear.

H22 the AMS is very political and not very clear on homosexuality at all, there is no identifiable homosexual gene, hormone, or DNA indicators outside of physical evidence of the activity there is no physical trace elements of homosexual that are naturally produced. It is not medically understood outside of opinions and conjecture forced upon the public because of political agendas.

Scot the only thing you have said right is yes I am not a Jew; but so what? Oh I’m not Jewish so I could not possibly read; Scot try thinking before you talk.

cknuck: "God is not ambiguous about anything, the God I know is very clear."

Sorry, liberal Christians. But I have to agree with cknuck that when it comes to homosexuality, the bible is crystal clear.

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

Rom.1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet."

Clearly, god turned people into homosexuals, and then demanded they be killed for acting on the attractions HE gave them...

That, among other things, is why I'm agnostic. An eternity in any kind of hell would be worth not listening to that crap one day a week.

cknuck: "Mordred when you learn how to read then you will stop thinking that God had anything to do with turning anyone into homosexuals, it's not in the text. He simply turned away from them."

I suppose that's supposed to put him in a more...positive light?

But while I've got your attention, what are your thoughts on Leviticus 20:13? Is it the infallible word of god or not? Do the countries where same-sex intercourse is punishable by death have it right, or should we ignore the verse because deep down you guys know it's wrong?

A British Anglican bishop has said homosexuals need to "change and repent".
The Bishop of Rochester, Dr Michael Nazir-Ali says

"We welcome homosexuals, we don’t want to exclude people, but we want them to repent and be changed."

The bishop added that it is not just homosexuals who need to repent, but all who have strayed from the Bible’s teaching.

Most of what is horrible and sickening in the Bible was said by human men, not by God, and recopied over and over with more inhibiting stories by people who believed that demons were crawling out of people who had seizures from diseases not even thought about back then. Go to a UCC Church and be reeducated. Homosexuality traits are noticable in little children so nobody is putting a hex on them, they are born the way ther are.

Having gotten into this post a little late...and reading the usual discussion of what REALLY is the TRUE word of GOD in some folk's minds, and the other, refreshing liberals, who realize the bible is flawed, I have only to add (and I think jestrfyl mentioned this) that the churches involved in the states that have legalized homosexual marriages, should just write an appropriate prayer/blessing and let the higher ups adjust. Simple, IMO.

cknuck: "Science has not been able to prove this it is wishful thinking of the homosexual community kids are kids some people think kids are born with many traits I cannot mention or I will get deleted but none of this information is provable. It has been proven that kids can be influenced by things people take for granted and hardly notice that kids have observed. So an intentional pattern would all the more influence who a kid grows up to be."

I'm not familiar with what's known about genetics of homosexuality and you don't seem to be either, and likely there's a good deal more to learn. But wishful thinking runs both ways. You Bible thumpers are gored on this issue when there's proof it's genetic (and thus, by your thinking, "God's doing") so you claim it doesn't exist.

And sure kids can be influenced but look around and you see that influence is pretty limited. How many people set out to raise their kids far differently than they turned out. Ok, an easier question: How many people got just the young adults they intended to raise?

I don't see many hands. The wise parent does his or her best and accepts the result. Not many designer adults around.

Now about homosexual behavior in animals. It happens often and we might surely agree there's no intention on the part of, say, an African elephant couple to raise a homosexual elephant.

"So to say children are born that way is guesswork at best."

Possibly. But to say they are not would also be guesswork. How much anguish do you want to put people through based on your particular interpretation of a baseless religion and some guesswork. The answer seems to be "A lot."

pagan If there were a "chemical make up" then is should have a name or be identified, but...

So nnmns you haven't indicated what other animal behaviors should we mimic should we sniff each other's butts as a greeting.

cknuck I've tried twice and they've both been "held" indefinitely.

You can sniff all the butts you can get away with. Interesting you'd come up with that as an example. I'd try it first among friends if I were you (shudder).

As for mimicking animals, how about not killing others of our kind, which I believe many animals normally or always practice. How about not putting needless junk into the environment? How about staying out of the business of our fellow critters not of our family? We could learn a lot from our fellow animals.