“timeless teachings”
Not so much. The experts acknowledge they changed as they were copied, either by error or by design.
“Homosexual practice is not God’s design for humanity,”
Well we see that a lot. It strikes me if “God” had a design for us “he” should have made it clear. Whatever the Bible may say about homosexuality if doesn’t say it clearly. And given an all-wise, all-knowing deity isn’t it reasonable to expect a well-written instruction manual. Well we didn’t get one, which is one more nail in the case against the existence of an all-wise, all-knowing deity.

The only “movement” on gay marriage from the states has been Courts overruling the will of the people. The people have passed anti-gay marriage laws in dozens of states, in almost every state where they have appeared, including supposedly liberal states like California. The Churches aren’t stupid and know how their congregations feel. They don’t want to end up like the Episcopal Church, with scores of churches and entire dioceses leaving, tens of thousands of congregants lost along with bitter and expensive legal fights over property. Because of the profound disgust most people feel at the idea of homosexuality in general and homosexual marriage in particular these divisions will continue to deepen.

The homosexualists keep proposing ludicrous rationalizations for advancing their cause hoping that people won’t look microns deep to see the fallacies.
And here we have one of the most idiotic reasons for churches to bless homosexual “marriages”: The states are issuing gay marriage licenses, so we need to bless them.
Right. The states offer liquor licenses, writs of divorce, dog licenses, etc. Should we develop ceremonies for these? What the state does, the state does. It has nothing to do with the Church.
I cannot believe that anyone could proffer this inanity without realizing the speciousness of it.

Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s Best Christian, has a quick 4-minute video that explains traditional, Bible-based marriage citing both Old and New Testament passages. Be prepared to be informed by a Biblical worldview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

Study after study continues to support the hypothesis that orientation is not just a decision. That being the case, how can religious people continue to participate in adding to the suffering of people with alternative orientations ?
If it is not a choice, how could it be a sin ?

Fear takes many roots: scapegoating, making oneself feel superior to another person, beating them, killing them, demonizing them as Fuorta, Mike, Robroy, and Stephen demonize (act like the devil they abhor) by using Scriptures (which they and other Christians selectively choose and disregard other passages) in order to advance their bigotry. If God had not wanted homosexuality, he wouldn’t have wanted the animal kingdom, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, and other lesser-known human beings to feel love and express that love toward others. These churchgoing heterosexuals can’t leave state power alone. They’re so afraid of something that they don’t understand that they have to legislate it, root it out so they can feel better about themselves and the world. Jesus, who they claim to follow, never said anything about homosexuality. It was Paul, who never knew Christ in life that condemned it and in the Book of Leviticus, which most Christians disregard and which Orthodox Jews and Muslims, which these Christians hate, following it still.
Robroy, Fuorta, and all you hateful, fearful, bigoted, self-righteous Christians who don’t know what they will really find in the next world, practice your heaven here on Earth with your fellow man, homosexual or not. Then, you’ll be following Christ’s teachings, like a man.

Fuorta: “The only ‘movement’ on gay marriage from the states has been Courts overruling the will of the people.”
I’m sick and tired of hearing about the “will of the people”. Are us non-heteros not part of “the people”? Does our will not matter? If you guys decide you want to start killing us again, are we supposed to lie down and take it because it’s the “will of the people”?

One thing the US form of government is supposed to do is protect the minority from the majority when it occasionally goes nuts. If it could not do that we’d have an unstable system of governance, with every group struggling for power out of self protection.
Fuorta, robroy and Stephen illustrate why that’s the case.
Hmm, “Stephen”, not Steve. Questionable choice of screen name there Stephen; not so manly.
Will America’s Best Christian automatically be sainted? This gets better and better.

Well, it is Christians like Betty Bowers who by putting Christianity in proper perspective……have assisted me in my choice to remain Christian all these years.
Though I sense that for some…..such as my friend nnmns, she may provide further reinforcement of his choice to be atheist.
Peace!

Mike, in drone fashion, offers stupid reasoning # 17 from the playbook:
“If it is not a choice, how could it be a sin ?”
Quite easily. First and foremost, there is a big difference between innate personality characteristics and actions arising from those characteristics. There is far more evidence that alcoholism (or more generally substance abuse) is innate than homosexuality. My father was an alcoholic (who admirably gave up drink). Should we bless getting drunk because alcoholism is “not a choice.”
In fact, with pretty much all sin, one can blame innate characteristics: “You can’t blame me for murdering that guy, I have been diagnosed with anti-social personality disorder. It isn’t a choice, you know.” “I couldn’t help being unfaithful to my wife, but I am just that way. It isn’t a choice, you know.”
Paul said, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do…For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
Now, Mike would tell St. Paul, “Paul, just give in. It isn’t a choice. In fact, our church is developing a blessing ceremony for it. Won’t that make you feel better?”
—
But will the liberals offer up the same “if it isn’t a choice, how can it be a sin?” argument tomorrow? You bet. They simply lack integrity. They are aware it is complete rubbish, but if they think it will advance the spin wars, they will do it.

robroy-
“And here we have one of the most idiotic reasons for churches to bless homosexual “marriages”: The states are issuing gay marriage licenses, so we need to bless them.”
I completely agree with you! This is an idiotic reason for churches to bless same-gender marriages!
The best reason for churches to bless same-gender marriages is because it is the right thing to do. Embracing prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry in the face of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ is simply appalling. Yet, so many Christians continue to do so in their quest for self-righteousness.
God did not create people as prejudiced, discriminatory, and bigoted. Therefor, if one is prejudiced, discriminatory, and bigoted…clearly one chooses to be.
Peace!

And Mr Sanchez takes standard homosexual playbook response: Disagree with me and I will throw darts at you: fearful, bigoted, hateful… What else? My feet stink? My nose is too big? Whatever. They toss these phrases out so much in a hackneyed fashion they they have lost all meaning. (Sort of like the word gay.)
Anyone can look around and see the havoc wrought by this disastrous social experiment of the left. Can it get worse? Sure. Look at Western Europe where the fertility rate is not enough too replace society, marriage is in terminal decline, out of wedlock children are the norm, selfishness is the rule. The society is so weakened that they can’t stand up to foreign aggression in the form of militant Islam.

Alcoholism vs homosexuality. The problem with that analogy is that alcoholism hurts everyone involved (except the alcohol industry) so there’s obvious reason to work very hard to overcome any inherited alcoholic tendencies, not that everyone does but they should and we should celebrate those who try and especially those who succeed. It’s sort of similar with smokers, though it’s taken a lot longer to recognize the perils to bystanders.
But homosexuality is pretty much a victimless crime, which is a big reason it’s no longer a crime in many places. And we would surely feel much better comparing ourselves with places it’s not a crime than with places it is a crime.
As for Europe, they may pay a price for being too open but they and we are far better off that they aren’t in some stupid reproductive competition. Our planet can’t handle competitions like that; there are too many of us already.

Kudos to New England (sans RI) for supporting civil marriage.
It’s time America.
Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace
Washington, Connecticut, USA
And to the marriage foes, and sexually phobic, please find something else to do with your time, because life’s too short. Find love.
And remember, we have freedom of religion, and freedom from religion in America too.
And marriage licenses are issued by town halls not church halls in America.
Kudos to civil marriage.
In America, minorities are protected from the tyranny of the majority…

Nnmns is on the right track, but I would go even further. Alcoholism is destructive, and treating alcoholism brings light and life where there was death and darkness. Homosexuality is not just a “victimless crime”; “treating” homosexuality by forcing heterosexuality or celibacy on the homosexually oriented is highly destructive and outright dangerous to those individuals. Self-giving love between two people in a committed relationship is to be celebrated, which is exactly what some churches are doing.

Nnmns is on the right track, but I would go even further. Alcoholism is destructive, and treating alcoholism brings light and life where there was death and darkness. Homosexuality is not just a “victimless crime”; “treating” homosexuality by forcing heterosexuality or celibacy on the homosexually oriented is highly destructive and outright dangerous to those individuals. Self-giving love between two people in a committed relationship is to be celebrated, which is exactly what some churches are doing.

Whoops! The first time it told me the captcha had expired, so I posted again. Sorry about the double post.

not only is nnmns wrong but he shouldn’t be a spokes person for churches given his contempt for God, but it is not surprising that for the sake of sin so-called believers would align with preachers against God. The church has traditionally held to its beliefs in the face of government policies. Rev. Mary Holder Naegeli is right when she says “Clear prohibitions in the Scripture make homosexual practice a sin” So churches that cave to political pressures are probably more interested in keeping pace with worldly desires than the desire to serve God.

cknuck is right that I have little or nothing to say about what churches choose to do, as long as they aren’t seriously hurting someone, and it’s arguable that not giving a church wedding to someone isn’t seriously hurting them.
But I’m right that some very specious arguments are given, over and over robroy, against homosexuality. One type is the false comparison, sometimes with murderers or rapists, other times with alcoholism. The sloppy reader might think such arguments make sense, but in fact they don’t make a lick of sense.
cknuck if your god were a tenth of what you think he is, he wouldn’t have to worry about what I and all my fellow rational thinkers did. The fact you worry for him suggests you lack confidence in him.

Homosexuality not harmful to your health??? Not harmful to society??? Yeah, right.
But the argument was “it is not a choice, so we should bless it.” So I guess we are modifying the argument to “it is not a choice and we are calling it victimless, so we should bless it.” Of course, this is the typical new age, post-Christian thought that tries to deny the sinful nature of man (another ridiculous proposition). Let’s bless transvestism and other fetishes. They truly are victimless (except for the poor lost soul perpetrating them).
And WT tries to offer up the thoroughly unscientific “treating homosexuality is damaging.” The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population. Substance abuse is rampant. Then we have the widespread practice of unprotected promiscous sex. Attempting to deliver people from this evil is the right thing to do from a moral point of view as well as from a purely secular public health point of view.

“Of course, this is the typical new age, post-Christian thought that tries to deny the sinful nature of man (another ridiculous proposition).”
When you bring up “the sinful nature of man” why do you reserve your hounding to homosexuals? How about bigots? There’s a truly victomy sin. And you, YN, always have a sinner right at hand or in your mirror. Repent!

‘your name’ wrote: “And WT tries to offer up the thoroughly unscientific “treating homosexuality is damaging.” The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population. Substance abuse is rampant. Then we have the widespread practice of unprotected promiscous sex.”
Talk about unscientific arguments! First, I don’t know where you got your statistics from. It would be typical to gather these statistics at gay bars and bath houses and then claim they apply to all homosexuals.
Also, you are making claims about cause and effect which your statistics, even if true, don’t justify. Depression, with the consequent substance abuse, suicide and risky behavior, is not caused by homosexuality, but by the rejection homosexuals experience. And ‘rejection’ is putting it very mildly. I doubt that homosexuals who are accepted by their loved ones (family, friends, church) do not exhibit this type of behavior.
And it’s a simple fact that homosexual reparative therapy doesn’t work, and only causes more damage.
I’ve known homosexuals who by God’s grace have been delivered from depression, substance abuse, and meaningless promiscuous sex, and it’s a beautiful thing. BUT THEY’RE STILL GAY!

The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population. Substance abuse is rampant. Then we have the widespread practice of unprotected promiscous sex. Attempting to deliver people from this evil is the right thing to do from a moral point of view as well as from a purely secular public health point of view.

Do you suppose there’s a reason homosexuals have a higher rate of suicide? A reason involving people like you? This is called committing the crime and then blaming the victim.
And there’s a lot of unprotected promiscuous sex going on among heterosexuals, not to mention drug abuse. Is it fair to ignore the plight of the heterosexuals by not trying to cure them of their heterosexuality?

Hey, “Your Name”: Thanks for your unexpected argument in favor of marriage equality. All the evils that you cite as evidence against gay men: suicide 3.6 times higher, substance abuse & promiscuous sex could be mitigated by the stabilizing effects of marriage, and thus marriage equality would be a great benefit to society. From my point of view, all these problems of gay men are sociological in origin: the harmful effects of growing up as a discriminated minority within your own family along and the effects of pervasive bigotry. You cite the problems, but let’s get to the root of these problems. The root cause of these effects is anti-gay bigotry and the mental and emotional damage it does.
So when you say “Attempting to deliver people from this evil is the right thing to do from a moral point of view as well as from a purely secular public health point of view” I surprisingly agree. The evil is pernicious homophobia, and legal marriage equality is part of the solution.

First, in my previous post, I meant to write: I doubt that homosexuals who are accepted by their loved ones (family, friends, church) exhibit this type of behavior.
And reparative therapy is such a joke, some church’s have resorted to exorcism:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31528426/

“The Rev. Jennifer Wegter-McNelly, the Church of the Covenant’s interim pastor, says her congregation is in a difficult position trying to maintain support for gay members while still respecting denominational rules.”
Abhorrence of homosexual activity is not based upon denominational rules. It violates God’s law and our church and denominational rules must follow. If they don’t, they are not churches of God and therefore have little to say about the “churches” stance on homosexuality. Except, whatever is politically correct at the time they say it. That is the usual pattern, at least.
It’s God’s way or the highway for churches that teach other than God.
Homosexual activity should no more be tolerated in any individuals than any other practiced sin. How often do people allow the return of a rapist to their abode? A burglar? Why not let that guy who owns guns and hunt’s to preach in your “church”?
Everyone has rules. God’s rules are the only ones that count.
The audacity of liberals.

God’s Country wrote: “It’s God’s way or the highway for churches that teach other than God.”
[sarcasm on] Sure, blindly enforce the rules and close your eyes to the destruction you cause in people’s lives. That’s what Jesus would do! [sarcasm off]
“Why not let that guy who owns guns and hunt’s to preach in your “church”?”
?
You mean Dick Cheney? Sure, as long as he doesn’t shoot me in the face!

It strikes me both sides of this debate, with a few lonely holdouts, now assume that the widespread acceptance of gay marriage in the US is inevitable. The increasingly shrill and panicked arguments by the opposition belie this fact; they are loud because they are worried and they are worried because they can see the writing on the wall– what has begun in New England and Iowa will inevitably spread throughout the United States. In the back of everyone’s mind is Matt Silver’s prediction at fivethirtyeight.com that all US states will accept gay marriage by 2020 or so, and most long before that. Some religious groups will resist the change, but they will look increasingly, and embarrassingly, backwards, and may even dwindle away into obscurity as they lose the younger generations of believers who have no problem with gay marriage (surveys suggest that gay marriage is widely endorsed by the young), and are familiar enough with the Bible to know that cherry picking passages to “prove” that God hates homosexuality with a special passion is an exhausting, fruitless undertaking, and a foolish one.
Pro gay marriage folks, take comfort in this: you have already won this fight. Even the other side knows it. And gays everywhere, if you want to get hitched, thousands of UCC and other liberal churches, where Christ’s tradition of reaching out to the outcast and marginalized is alive and well, stand ready to help.

Same old, same old. PJI is right. Young people know their friends from kindergarten, grade school, H.S. and they understand that they are born the way they are. Some of their parents, the fortunate ones who talk and watch their friends and their children see the same thing. Most of my Christian relatives, of all religions read, watch, and know that LGBT are born the way they were supposed to be. It’s time for the stauch Biblists to use their minds and their hearts to understand that the Bible teaches wonderful things but it is not infallible. Now, that is almost an impossiblity in 2009 for most of the Evengelical Churches. So be it. This is a country that finally has a President that feels we are all equal, now we wait, to see if he will do his best to bring our citizens up to what the Declaration of Independence set forth and the Preamble of U.S. Constitution. He said in his speech in Ghana today that we are all equal in the U.S. Perhaps we will be soon. Won’t it be nice to talk of things other than peoples sex habits? When we are all equal, no barriers, the judgers will have to find something else to judge and bully.

Your Name-
“Homosexuality not harmful to your health??? Not harmful to society??? Yeah, right.
And WT tries to offer up the thoroughly unscientific “treating homosexuality is damaging.” The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population. Substance abuse is rampant. Then we have the widespread practice of unprotected promiscous sex. Attempting to deliver people from this evil is the right thing to do from a moral point of view as well as from a purely secular public health point of view.”
As nnmns has already pointed out to you…the high suicide rate is not a result of homosexuality…but rather a result of cruel treatment by prejudiced, discriminatory, and bigoted people. Unfortunately often those people profess to be following the teachings of our Lord and attempt to utilize those teachings and the Bible as a weapon against God’s gay and lesbian children.
Also, as has already been pointed out….straight people also participate in unprotected sexual activity…but, I do not see you attempting to ban heterosexual marriage. Have you ever seen the ads for “Girls Gone Wild” or been in Florida or South Padre Island TX during spring break?
A regular result of straight sex is unwanted children. Funny, you have not mentioned the hundreds of thousands of unwanted children currently living in the USA that were produced by irresponsible straight couples.
As a Christian, I can not condone what God condemns. Please go back and reread you Bible. Repeatedly, we are very clearly told not to judge. To love our neighbor as our self, etc. No where does the Bible instruct us to force our personal belief nor even, our religious beliefs on others.
As an American citizen I completely support your right to your opinions (regardless of how strongly I disagree with them). And, as an American and a Christian, I ask you to stop attempting to force the rest of us to live by your beliefs.
Peace!

“The high suicide rate is due to but rather a result of cruel treatment by prejudiced, discriminatory, and bigoted people.”
Not true. The high suicide and substance abuse rate is seen in liberal countries like the Netherlands.
Attempting to force the rest of us to live by your beliefs? Hmmm, what group is forcing “hate laws” expressly designed to thwart freedom of speech? How in the world am I “forcing my beliefs” on anyone? Perhaps you would like me to forgo my voting rights as well or simply vote for homosexual marriages despite the clear evidence of the terrible failure of this liberal social experiment.
The homosexualization of liberal churches has been disastrous. Yet, people are still pushing forward with this secular cause. These people are homosexualists first and Christians second, thus proving they are no Christians, e.g., Gene Robinson has called on his followers to “boldy [sic] risk the institution itself” (the church) to advance the cause of homosexuality.
“Most of my Christian relatives, of all religions read, watch, and know that LGBT are born the way they were supposed to be.” More nonsense. Why is that 50% of women who identify themselves as lesbian in their teens, view themselves as heterosexual in their 30′s? Are you going to tell these women that they are wrong and they should go back to their homosexual lifestyle? Why is it that adopted children in homosexual households are more likely to identify themselves as homosexual when they grow up? The nature versus nurture is probably less than 20%-80% according to the Nobel prize winner James Watson (and thus could be 0%).
And again, predisposition to an activity has nothing to do with its morality. I am predisposed to polyamory which is immoral even though it is “natural” and “victimless”. Predisposition is simply irrelevant in deciding morality. (But will we hear the “God made me gay” rubbish tomorrow? You bet.)

“we are very clearly told not to judge”
We’re told not to judge the state of a person’s soul, or to make judgment regarding where they will end up — heaven or hell. Only God knows these things. But we can judge actions as right or wrong.
Think back to the story of Jesus and the woman about be stoned for adultery. He didn’t condemn the crowd for recognizing that adultery is sinful. But He did drive home the point that while they have the right to judge the action, only He can pronounce the final sentence, and the sentence He chose was one of mercy.
Also, remember what He said to the woman. He told her that her sins are forgiven,and now go, and sin no more. In other words, Jesus didn’t ignore the immorality of her actions. He didn’t tell her, “Don’t worry, it’s not really a sin. It’s just a stagnant social more you’re violating. No big deal.”
It’s the same with this issue. The orthodox have every right to remind people that what we’re talking about is an intrinsically disordered act. We have the right to judge the action. But only God has the right to judge the state of anyone’s soul. So I’ll say that gay marriage makes no sense in our tradition, but I end there.

The Orthodox do not have the right to use stories that they do to cause hate for the GLBT. You are unbelivable in your judgements. Do not call my relatives and myself nonsense. You are attacking me and my loved ones with your diatribe. The Medical Socities uphold the fact that GLBT are born the way they are. Unless you have the training and the scientific knowledge that they have and fully understand all in the Medical World you present yourselves as extremely unqualified to judge what you refuse to understand. Keep your opinions in your Churches, and take care of your own body, it’s the only one that you have anything to say about. Run and read the The Declaration of Independence, and the The Ameican Constiution with it’s amendments. We are all equal in America, and unless we are all treated as such these complaints can be brought before our Government as they are being brought day by day.

John Q.
Your theology is completely inconsistent with the Bible: Christians are to go into the word and preach the Gospel. The world is lost, and we are the light to a fallen world. God is perfect love. God is also perfect hate. God HATES sin. Jesus died for you and me because of Sin. God is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow. The wages of sin (singular) is death. No one comes to the Father except through Christ. Homosexuality is a sin. As Christains, we are to love the sinner, but like God, hate the sin. All need God’s forgiveness through Christ. Without the confession of sin, all are lost. Repent means to change. Homosexeul’s must repent and change.
For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them…This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual intercourse for what is unnatural. The males in the same way also left natural sexual intercourse with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty for their perversion.
And because they did not think it worthwhile to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong. They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, disputes, deceit, and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful. Although they know full well God’s just sentence—that those who practice such things deserve to die —they not only do them, but even applaud others who practice them.

H22 quote, ” The Medical Socities uphold the fact that GLBT are born the way they are” Actually there is no proof of this statement it is more political than science. There is no homosexual gene, hormone, or any other cell proof. It is a phenomenon that is totally unexplainable to science. The expediential nature of sin on the other hand is explained in the bible.

“The Medical Socities [sic] uphold the fact that GLBT are born the way they are.”
More nonsense. No medical “socity” has taken such a foolish stance. The very much biased (towards homosexuality) APA dances around health ramifications of homosexuality. But one can look at their position statements (http://tinyurl.com/nkuo5b) and see they don’t make any such unscientific statement.
“Unless you have the training and the scientific knowledge that they have and fully understand all in the Medical World you present yourselves as extremely unqualified to judge what you refuse to understand.”
I am a physician. And you are confused and ill-informed. It is irritating that you throw out such an untruthful statement.

Lot’s of noise, lot’s of loud noise.
The Bible say’s “this”! The bible says “that”!
Where does it end?
It ends with the truth.
Homosexual behavior is sin. Homosexual behavior is unnatural. Homosexual behavior is abhorrent to God and man.
Pedophilia, thievery, rape, murder, hunting, fraud, Evangelicalism – Quite clear that you all, as well as humanity in general, definitely have a list of what’s right and wrong. Right or wrong, good or evil – these concepts exist and are very real.
Homosexual behavior is evil and remains on the “WRONG” list.
The audacity of liberal “thought”.

GodsCountry: “Homosexual behavior is evil and remains on the ‘WRONG’ list.”
Fortunately it’s not on the “WANTED” list anymore. But I’m sure you guys are working on that.

Well this struck a nerve among the irrational.
Why would we base our morality on an old book written by people whose agendas we can only guess at and edited by others and picked over by others for political ends.
You people claim so much certainty but your certainty is built on sand. It would be funny except for the hatred you are spouting against real people.
‘The Bible say’s “this”! The bible says “that”!
Where does it end?’
A good end is to ignore the Bible and base our morality on common sense and science and love for others. And no kind of love for homosexuals could include putting a statement like “Homosexual behavior is abhorrent to God and man.” out where crazies can read it.
Morality based on the Bible has led to slavery and war and ignorance and bigotry and fear and humiliation. And that’s because of people like you who pick out the hateful parts that you can use to demonize those you are currently picking on, and ignore the inconvenient parts.
You are wrong and you are hurting people unnecessarily and you are trying to be a blight on our country.
We have real problems; homosexuality is not one of them. Bigotry is one, recovering from the Bush/Cheney/Republican recession is another, terrorism is another. There are many more, but the biggest problem is to keep the earth from truly becoming a hell due to the greenhouse gasses we all are putting in the air. You people and your silly, hateful campaign against homosexuals are a distraction from things we need to be doing.
Repent.

Patrick, GodsCountry, robroy, and cknuck-
The “Great Commission” Matthew 28:18-20: “18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Do you really think you are bringing disciples to our Lord? Do you really think that the tone and content of your words in going to entice someone to become a follower of Jesus Christ? Really?
Do you really think that anything you are teaching is what He commanded of us?
Does it not bother you that the atheist on this thread, nnmns is teaching the message of our Lord while you appear to be doing exactly what Christ admonished us not to do?
As a Christian, I will suggest to you that he will bring more people to the teachings of Christ than you do. I hold you all in my prayers.
Peace!

So you are a doctor, so what? Some doctors have helped kill Michael Jackson. There are good ones, bad ones, and others. I come from a family of doctors, too. I find you equally irritating.

Discussing sin is UGLY. Calling evil “good” and making good seem like evil is even uglier. Telling the truth about this endeavor and it’s effects is difficult. If those who clearly know the difference continue to deceive, who will keep others from being lost in the confusion of sin? If the language sounds harsh, it is ONLY because of the topic. The very ugliness of the sin shall not eclipse the light.
Shining a light into this darkness has illuminated a nasty mess. Those who inhabit this bit of darkness need to be told the truth. If they repent they prove the power of truth. If they do not, they shall nonetheless be the subjects of prayer. Liberal thought processes truth as if it was relative to the times and seasons. Liberal people are trapped in a net of deception that has historically been a difficult one to escape. But not impossible. To question them is to serve them.
To serve them is to love them.
Make no mistake about this.
The audacity of liberal deception.

Sadly, churches seem to have only two speeds on their collective shifter – “glacial” and “backwards”. Actually, I believe that churches are like buses, except half of the people have their own steering wheel and and the other half each have their own brake pedal, but no one can find the accelerator, and they have left on their turn indicators (which one depends on their particular orientation). It takes a while, but churches do make changes and keep trying to catch up with the hearts and minds of the people. Though like a dog and its tail, if the church every does catch up, it won’t know what to do next!
God’sCountry,
To your oft repeated “The audacity of liberal deception.” I would reply, The arrogance of conservative ignorance!” HAH!

nnms says I am a “bigot” and “hateful”. And I say he is a libertine and a liar. Perhaps we might now dispense with the ad hominem?
He favors abandoning 5,000 years Judaeo-Christian sexual ethic: sexual relations are reserved for marriage and marriage is for male and female. Dennis Prager, the Jewish conservative commentator, points out that the modern sexual ethic is hardly “progressive” and it is certainly harmful to women and children. One can easily look around and see the terrible damage it is wreaking on our society.
Henrietta states that she came from a family of doctors. I wonder if she stayed at a Holiday Inn Express? One has to love her insinuation that I am partly responsible by association for the death of Michael Jackson.
I include a quote from the gay activist, Peter Tatchell:
—
I don’t disagree that genes (and hormonal exposure in the womb) influence sexual orientation. The scientific evidence for these biological influences is presented in the book, Born Gay (2005), written by Glenn Wilson of the Institute of Psychiatry in London and Qazi Rahman, a lecturer in psychobiology at the University of East London.
But contrary to what the authors seem to suggest, an influence is not the same as a cause. Genes and hormones may predispose a person to one sexuality rather than another. But that’s all. Predisposition and determination are two different things.
There is a major problem with gay gene theory, and with all theories that propose the biological programming of sexual orientation. If heterosexuality and homosexuality are, indeed, genetically predetermined (and therefore mutually exclusive and unchangeable), how do we explain bisexuality or people who, suddenly in mid-life, switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality (or vice versa)? We can’t.
The reality is that queer and straight desires are far more ambiguous, blurred and overlapping than any theory of genetic causality can allow.
—

“If heterosexuality and homosexuality are, indeed, genetically predetermined (and therefore mutually exclusive and unchangeable), how do we explain bisexuality or people who, suddenly in mid-life, switch from heterosexuality to homosexuality (or vice versa)? We can’t.”
I can make a stab at it. Bisexuality may be some of both or it may be a third disposition. People who suddenly change, I’d guess, do so because they’ve had it up to here with living a lie or because they relatively recently understood themselves better than before.
But I agree it may well be complicated.
Now maybe we can all agree it’s unpleasant enough in our society being homosexual that no one is likely to choose that (assuming they could) unless it was hard-wired into them.
Also, I’d like to point out yet again that the Bible lists all sorts of sins, including divorce which I’m told on good authority Jesus seemed to abhor. Yet you people obsess on homosexuality. And original sin (a truly horrendous invention) claims we’re all guilty enough to deserve hell forever yet you people obsess on homosexuality, a pretty minor thing compared to original sin or murder or rape or despoiling the planet. The obvious conclusion is that you are bigoted against homosexuals and pick homosexuality out from all the sins you could talk about because you hate homosexuals. And the only slightly less obvious conclusion is that you are being used by people who want power and want to mislead us into not dealing with the ways they are hurting us.

“Currently, while Unitarians and the UCC sanction gay marriages, other mainline denominations don’t officially allow them.”
The trouble with blanket statements is that they’re so easily disproved. Both the Reformed and the (ahem) Conservative branches of Judaism ‘allow’ same-sex marriages.
Why does a faith have to be “mainline”? And what determines a faith to be “mainline”?
And, unless anyone be excluded, what about non-religious (i.e. CIVIL) marriage? Of course some faiths are behind the times on this, but religious marriages aren’t the only ones.

robroy,
“But will the liberals offer up the same “if it isn’t a choice, how can it be a sin?” argument tomorrow?”
Probably, since “sin” (at least, your idea of it, anyway) is irrelevant to the state and to civil marriage.
Of course, as this article clearly states, not all faiths believe that consenting adult same-sex relationshis are ‘sinful’, so I’m not sure why I should have to abide by the tenets of a religion I don’t belong to. Could you explain how that works?

robroy,
“Look at Western Europe where the fertility rate is not enough too replace society, marriage is in terminal decline, out of wedlock children are the norm, selfishness is the rule. The society is so weakened that they can’t stand up to foreign aggression in the form of militant Islam.”
What on earth does any of that have to do with same-sex marriage?

YN,
“The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population.”
True. In large part because of the hate-mongering of the Jerry Falsewells and the Ted Haggards and the Jimmy Swaggarts of this world. If you betterosexuals didn’t keep blaming hurricanes etc. on God’s gay and lesbian children, some gay folk might have a better self-image. Be healsed.
“Substance abuse is rampant.”
I doubt it’s any more “rampant” than among the heterosexual population. But what it has to do with gay marriage escapes me.
“Then we have the widespread practice of unprotected promiscous sex.”
Again, no more so than amongst you heterosexuals.
“Attempting to deliver people from this evil is the right thing to do from a moral point of view”
I don’t see how. Nor have I seen any examples of success at “delivering people” from their God-given sexual orientation. Do you feel God made a mistake?

Speaking of the audacity of liars (like God’s Country)…
“It’s God’s way or the highway for churches that teach other than God.”
Tell us, GC, do you belive you should put homosexuals to death? That’s what the Bible sez.
And your comparison of loving, committed, adult, sonsenting same-sex relationships to rape is abhorrent. I pray for your healing, ‘cuz you seem badly in need of one for such vile hateful lies.

Henrietta,
“It’s time for the stauch Biblists to use their minds and their hearts”
They aren’t “staunch Biblists, they’re selective Biblists. They ignore the part about putting disobedient children to death, and the part about denying communion to the disabled, and the part about making a girl marry her rapist, and about … well, you get the picture.

robroy,
“How in the world am I “forcing my beliefs” on anyone?”
By saying, ‘My faith says homosexual practice is a sin, so gay marriages should not be allowed.’ Since other faiths DO believe in same-sex marriage, you are forcing God’s gay and lesbian children to abide by the tenets of your faith, not their own.
See how easy it is to explain how you are forcing your belief on others?

More nonsense from robroy …
“Perhaps you would like me to forgo my voting rights as well”
You can vote how you wish – on subjects that should be put to a vote. Taking away the freedoms of others should never be put to a vote in America.
“or simply vote for homosexual marriages despite the clear evidence of the terrible failure of this liberal social experiment.”
Not sure how it’s been a “terrible failure”. You will give us some statistics to support your conjecture, won’t you? I’ve been married for more than 5 years, and the world hasn’t collapsed.
“The homosexualization of liberal churches has been disastrous.”
Again, please provide some proof. YOur opinion doesn’t count for much, I’m afraid.

GC,
“Homosexual behavior is sin.”
Not according to my religion. YOu go to your Church and I’ll go to mine. Thanx anyway.
“Homosexual behavior is unnatural.”
Not for homosexuals it isn’t.
“Homosexual behavior is abhorrent to God and man.”
Well, I’m a man and I don’t find it “abhorrent” at all. As for God’s feelings on the matter, I’ll wait for Her to reveal her will for me.
Nice list you came up with…
“Pedophilia, thievery, rape, murder, hunting, fraud, Evangelicalism”
All of those things are abhorrent, for they involve harm and lack of consent. My being gay does neither. So MYOB or STFU.

Husband nice word play but it is pure BS (baloney sandwiches,) because RR won’t bend to your interpretation of homosexuality not being sinful RR is being forceful. Ha not only is that tactic bs but it is weak at least give us cheese with your baloney sandwiches. Homosexuality is sinful and unproductive simply vanity and at odds with God’s design for people.

cknuck: “Homosexuality is sinful and unproductive simply vanity and at odds with God’s design for people.”
Relationships can be productive in more ways than procreation alone. All relationships, heterosexual or homosexual, can be productive or destructive, self giving or self centered. The key is, as God’s Country said, to bring them into the light so that which is evil and destructive can be shown for what it is. If, as you say, homosexuality has no redeeming qualities, then that will eventually be made clear in God’s time. I don’t expect that to be the case, however, since it seems the opposite is true: the more people get to know homosexuals, as people and not statistics, their opinions tend to improve.
And I don’t believe in a one-size-fits-all design for people.
Finally, I’ve noticed in these discussions that people mainly talk at crossed purposes: the gay friendly speak of homosexual orientation and relationships; those opposed to homosexuality speak of practices. It’s no wonder these discussions generate more heat than light. The only hope is that we all proceed in love and respect for each other… and in the light.

Husband wrote:
“‘Currently, while Unitarians and the UCC sanction gay marriages, other mainline denominations don’t officially allow them.’
The trouble with blanket statements is that they’re so easily disproved. Both the Reformed and the (ahem) Conservative branches of Judaism ‘allow’ same-sex marriages.
Why does a faith have to be “mainline”? And what determines a faith to be ‘mainline’?”
Husband,
This may be more information than you want, but: “Mainline” is a long outdated term. There was a time (from the 1960s through to about 1985) when the majority of Protestant Christians in the US belonged to American Baptist, Presbyterian, United Church of Christ, Unitarian, Episcopalian and other such denominations. These churches were referred to as “mainline” in deference to their majority status. Theologically speaking, these churches were all what we would brand as “liberal” today.
Then, in the middle of the 1980s Americans lost their collective minds. In 1984 a minority group of right wing whackos, upset over a move to allow (gasp!) women into seminaries, staged a bit of a peaceful coup and took over the (at that point intensely democratically run) Southern Baptist Convention. They radicalized the SBC, and quickly moved to make the denomination a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republican Party (functioning as that party’s new base). Declaring themselves to be the only true Christians they aligned with conservative televangelical reachers and undertook an enormous media offensive to position themselves as the voice of American religion and their nutty theology as authentic Christianity.
The old mainline churches didn’t know what hit them. They recoiled in horror and after decades of being at the forefront of social change and political action reacted to the new religious landscape by lapsing into silence, waiting quietly for the lunatics to return to their asylum and the people they were now leading to come to their senses.
By and large the strategy of silence was a dramatic failure and before anyone could blink the mainline churches were no longer in the majority, as the radicalized SBC grew by leaps and bounds.
PBS hasn’t gotten the memo and so still uses the outdated terminology, although, as you point out PBS has bought the line that loony right wing Christian ideology is somehow normative. It isn’t of course, not in the US and certainly not in the rest of the world. Instead of “mainline” think “liberal” and “moderate” Protestant churches.
Liberal Christianity generally has no problem with homosexuality. The UCC, with 6,000 churches and just shy of 1.5 million members, proudly boasts about the fact that it ordained the first openly gay Pastor, as well as the first woman Minister in the US, and the first African American Pastor. The delightful irony is that the UCC is descended from the Puritans– hardly a group of theological lightweights– who, despite their rather severe outlook, insisted that Paul meant it when he said “neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female- all are one in Christ.”

Everyone here who has their own “religion” cannot possibly be all good. There is an empty space where absolute, timeless values should stand. Instead, there is blind “tolerance” for every other view except the views that conflict with their own, personal views. Atomised belief systems are going to conflict, no matter how tolerant or intolerant an individual. There exists external standards, truths, by which each may evaluate their own beliefs and those of others. It is called “truth”. Truth exists, as proven by vain attempts to make lies sound good by relying on just those truths that can be opportunistically used for self-promotion. Simply by calling my views “bad” proves there exists a standard – but it cannot possibly be the standard of individualized, atomized beliefs. That simply is chaos, anarchy and infinite intolerance.
I believe God exists because he indeed exists. Call this circular reasoning, but it is truly self-evident.
Making up your own rules is chaos and evil.
Understanding truth is joyous and liberating.
The audacity of those who deny the self-evident.

The behavior is what counts. A thief who dreams of plundering the local bank vault and the thief who actually does this are probably both thieves, but one has consummated the dream. Which will be judged a thief if brought before you or a judge? It is the activity that is evil.
Divorce is evil, thinking about it is bad enough, but ditching your spouse and family is infinitely worse.
The same for homosexuality. The same for rape. The same for child molestation. The same for fornication. The same for adultery.
Yes, God see’s the heart and thoughts. He says to lust after your neighbors spouse is as bad as the sex act would be.
But, we are not God and do not see the true thoughts and true heart urges of others.
We can only see the performance.
Homosexual behavior is evil. If abstained from (and repented of), there is no problem, from God or man.

I stated, “The suicide rate among homosexual men in 3.6 times higher than the general population.”
To which Sacramental Bea responds ignorantly, “True. In large part because of the hate-mongering of the Jerry Falsewells and the Ted Haggards and the Jimmy Swaggarts of this world. If you betterosexuals didn’t keep blaming hurricanes etc. on God’s gay and lesbian children, some gay folk might have a better self-image. ”
We have cross country studies in USA, New Zealand and the Netherlands showing this to be false: “In his cross-cultural comparison of mental health in the Netherlands, Denmark and the U.S., Ross (1988) could find no significant differences between countries – i.e. the greater social hostility in the United States did not result in a higher level of psychiatric problems.” There are also cross generational studies that don’t show variation of the suicide rate despite the relaxing of the social mores.
Sacramental Bea responds to my comment on the high rate of substance abuse in homosexuals: “I doubt it’s any more “rampant” than among the heterosexual population.”
Again wrong. We have this study: “Compared to the general population, homosexuals had a 4-fold increase in marijuana use; a 7-fold increase in cocaine use; and a 10-fold increase in amphetamine use.”
Numerous studies point to promiscuity in homosexuals over the general population. Ms Bea states, “Again, no more so than amongst you heterosexuals.” Again, not true. Ms Bea is simply making emissions. She simply speaks out of ignorance, making blanket untrue statements.

God’s Country wrote: “Homosexual behavior is evil.”
The terms ‘homosexual behavior’ and ‘homosexual practice’ aren’t nearly as unambiguous as you and others seem to think. Clearly, you distinguish this from orientation, but are you referring only to sex? Any display of affection? If my boyfriend and I declare our love for each other, move in together, and commit to spending our lives together, us that evil? I would certainly call that ‘homosexual behavior’, but none of it is sex.

robroy:

We have cross country studies in USA, New Zealand and the Netherlands showing this to be false: “In his cross-cultural comparison of mental health in the Netherlands, Denmark and the U.S., Ross (1988) could find no significant differences between countries – i.e. the greater social hostility in the United States did not result in a higher level of psychiatric problems.” There are also cross generational studies that don’t show variation of the suicide rate despite the relaxing of the social mores.

That “study” seems to be the writing of one N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D. (Author of “My Genes Made Me Do It”). In a reader-review of “My Genes Made Me Do It” on Amazon one reader said:

The book, a copy of which was apparently sent to many university libraries by the author himself (in the hope of insinuating his claptrap into the groves of academe as quickly as possible) has the appearance of a vanity-publishing effort. It is amateurishly laid out, glued and bound and printed on cheap paper. The endpapers contain advertisements for other low-quality polemical books of a right-wing activist type, and the back cover carries a picture of the two heterosexual experts on homos who have been researching the subject for all of “eight years”.

Dr. Whitehead does not seem to be a disinterested researcher and is quite possibly in fact a dedicated anti-homosexual worker.
In any case I do not believe we need to give a lot of weight to robroy’s “studies”.

Imdon’t know nnmns I’ve seen very few truly “gay” homosexuals as a rule most I have counseled are unhappy unless they are acting out or getting attention (postive attention or negative) I suspect that while acting out they are still unhappy.

nnms writes, “That ‘study’ seems to be the writing of one N.E. Whitehead, Ph.D.”
Um, no. The study by (Ross, 1988) is by Ross in 1988. I guess we are not too facile at reading the academic literature. The full reference (which you could have google-ed) is
Ross, M.W. (1988): Homosexuality and mental health: a cross-cultural review. J. Homosex. 15(1/2), 131-152.
Note that the Journal of Homosexuality is one of the premier journals for homosexology.
If I might borrow…In any case I do not believe we need to give a lot of weight to nnms’s comments.

“most I have counseled are unhappy”
On the other hand a lot of happy heterosexuals show up for counseling?

Robroy wrote: “Um, no. The study by (Ross, 1988) is by Ross in 1988.”
1988 huh? 21 years ago? I suspected as much, and I’m not impressed.

cknuck wrote: “Imdon’t know nnmns I’ve seen very few truly “gay” homosexuals as a rule most I have counseled are unhappy ”
Well I’m homosexual and happy, at least as far as my sexuality is concerned. Not too thrilled with my job right now, but that’s a different story… To the extent I have any problems with my sexuality, it comes from the fear of rejection by certain others.
I’m living all this first hand. I don’t need statistics to tell me my life story, or for others to tell me how I feel, or what I think or what I believe.

A great shame about the Episcopal Church. It used to have an interesting blend of intellect and faith, fairly high-minded character and was famously the redoubt of the American upper class. How far it is fallen. Unable to impose basic standards of behavior and character it is now ruled by filth and madness. The stench from the pulpits has been sufficient to drive away those for whom it was once a proud heritage, not to mention a place of moral and spiritual instruction. I wonder how much of this was deliberate wreckage? A succession of stink bombs used to drive us “old” Episcopalians out in order to seize our beautiful buildings and valuable real estate? The Episcopal Church is dead. Long live what will replace it!

Wannabe Theo writes, “1988 huh? 21 years ago? I suspected as much, and I’m not impressed.”
What a knucklehead response. In my medical practice, I daily use knowledge garnered from medical studies that were done 50 years ago. I can think of a seminal study published around 1910 involving a specific tumor that is still definitive.
Possum, our good Lord humbles the proud. I grew up in the Episcopal church and it was wonderful, but I remember the disparging remarks made about “Bible thumpers.” Now, we see our arrogance and lack of respect for Holy scripture come back and bite us. The laity is deceived by “shellfish” arguments and the like because of their extreme ignorance of Holy Scripture.
“Thy word is a lamp unto my feet.”

I have this incredable girl in my life and were engaged and i want to marry her but i need to find someone who will do it she is my world and my life and i wake every morning and look at her and think to my self how lucky i am to have her in my life. Can someone please find someone who can make it officeal for us?

Robroy wrote: “In my medical practice, I daily use knowledge garnered from medical studies that were done 50 years ago. I can think of a seminal study published around 1910 involving a specific tumor that is still definitive.”
Sociological studies and hard science are two different things. There are simply far too many unknown factors influencing people’s behavior that change over time for me to take a study that old seriously. I also doubt the ability of a researcher to reliably gather data on a representative sample of gay people at that time. Where did he go? Bath houses? Bars? People seeking counseling?
And I have a PhD in physics. I’m not a knucklehead, and I’m not particularly impressed with the fact that you’re an MD. I know the difference between correlation and causation, and I know causation because I know my own life. I don’t need your statistics for that.

For Christians, I think we do no one any good by not stating what God’s word make clear. Homosexuality is sinful. Like all sinful things, one needs to repent and seek forgiveness through Christ, who died for all, so that all might live abundantly!
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. As Christians, we are to love the sinner, but hate the sin. The homosexual is engage in sin. He/she needs to repent and change. A person who accepts Christ into their heart becomes a new person. Does the mean that sin will be absent for their lives forever. Of course not. Christians sin all the time. But Christians have the saving power of Christ. For the Christian, “we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us…” Hebrews 12:1, NKJV
Christians’ must be a light in a fallen world. If we act like we are in the World, caught up with the logic of the world, and acting consistent with those who are not saved, who are controlled by the world, then we lose are worth. We are to share the love of Christ with love. But we are also to speak the truth.
And the truth is that all who die, without Christ, are condemned. A person who is saved by Christ, will strive to let Christ control their actions and thoughts. That does not make a Christian perfect, but it does show that a Christian is seeking to do God’s will, rather than their own. For a Christian is bought with a price. And no longer serves themselves, but the Will of the person who paid the price…Christ, our Lord!
Here is what the Bible states about homosexuality.
1. God lists “homosexual offenders” among “the wicked” (1 Corinthians 6:9).
2. God lists “homosexual offenders” among those who He determines will “not inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 6:9).
3. Historically, homosexuality has incurred God’s destructive wrath upon an entire city (Gen. 19:4-5, 11-13).
4. God’s word defines the men of Sodom as “sinning greatly” because of their men having sex with men (Genesis 13:13; 19:5).
5. God calls Sodom’s sin “sexual perversion” (Jude 1:7). Societies that remain in perversion (Sodom, Rome…) are on the road to destruction.
6. God’s word identifies husband-wife relations as “natural relations” and homosexual relations as “unnatural ones” (Romans 1:26-27) and “perversion” (vs. 27).
7. God’s word also rebukes those who “approve of those who practice” homosexuality (Romans 1:32).
8. Jesus settled the marriage issue once for all, declaring that God had made them “male and female … a man … [and] his wife” (Matthew 19:4-5).

Wannabe Theo, I also have a PhD in Applied Mathematics. Does that help?
I didn’t say that you were a knucklehead. I did say that dismissing a study from one of the premiere journals in homosexual studies just because it is 21 years old is poor reasoning. I know the difference between correlation and causation, too. I made no post hoc ergo propter hoc mistake.

1 Corinthians 6:9 – “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind”
So among those who shall not inherit the earth (and therefore aren’t to marry each other) are fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate people and people who “abuse themselves with mankind”. Yet you ignore the fornicators, the idolaters and the adulterers; perhaps because so many of them turn out to be religious leaders and Republican politicians.
Now let’s talk about the effeminate. Not all of them are homosexuals and definitely not all homosexuals are effeminate, so that doesn’t justify abusing homosexuals.
That leaves “abusers of themselves with mankind”. Maybe you know what that means; it’s not clear to me. A lot of women certainly abuse themselves with mankind in a variety of ways, just as several men abuse themselves with womenkind (if we are to interpret “mankind” as meaning men. It seems likely it means men and women but I leave that question to the scholars. If “God” meant “men who abuse themselves with men and women who abuse themselves with women” “God” was surely capable of saying so, eh? Or does your god have a communication disability? Surely not!
What is very clear here is that 1 Corinthians 6:9 does not provide any foundation for abusing homosexuals. It does, if one were inclined, provide a foundation for abusing fornicators, idolaters and adulterers but you people are giving them a pass.
I think it’s time some of you talk about why you do this rather than just spouting the same old trash over and over.

That’s funny, I also have a Ph.D. in applied mathematics. But somehow I came out a lot better than you did on humane reasoning.

nnmns quote “That’s funny, I also have a Ph.D. in applied mathematics. But somehow I came out a lot better than you did on humane reasoning”
Somehow this statement does not sound like someone who came out any better than anyone else. I don’t think anyone is getting a pass from man if there is a pass to get. If you knew what the passage is saying then you would know that indeed homosexuality is included along with other sins as a matter of fact your sin is right in there too.

“I don’t think anyone is getting a pass from man if there is a pass to get.”
cknuck I’m pretty sure you can read better than that. I’m saying you people are giving them a pass while you hector homosexuals.
“If you knew what the passage is saying then you would know that indeed homosexuality is included along with other sins as a matter of fact your sin is right in there too.”
I put it right there, cknuck. It does not mention homosexuals and what you people seem to think refers to homosexuals in fact clearly does not.
Apparently you people can’t read the Bible you claim to think so highly of.

cknuck: “as a matter of fact your sin is right in there too.”
I presume you mean idolatry. Once again you fail in your knowledge of the Bible or, perhaps, of me. Let me assure you I don’t worship idols in any form.

Robroy wrote: “Wannabe Theo, I also have a PhD in Applied Mathematics. Does that help?”
Sure! But I should clarify, when I said I wasn’t impressed with the fact that you are an MD, I just meant I don’t automatically consider you smarter than me. Of course, obtaining and MD is an accomplishment, and working as a physician is highly praiseworthy.
“I didn’t say that you were a knucklehead.”
Thanks for clarifying that.
“I did say that dismissing a study from one of the premiere journals in homosexual studies just because it is 21 years old is poor reasoning.”
Yes, my post was curt and dismissive, and age alone doesn’t disqualify a study. But it is very hard, even impossible, to conduct a completely ‘controlled’ experiment in a sociological context. Too many uncontrollable, and even unknown variables. I doubt a researchers ability to obtain a truly representative sample of homosexuals at that period of time.
This thread is getting long and old; I think most people have moved on, and I will too.

Me too. Turn off the lights.

…mass confusion here.
Either God exists and humanity has accepted God’s revelation or God exists and humanity has not accepted God’s revelation.
God’s community can no more accommodate activism against revealed truth.
No more compromises.
The world is degenerating and needs truth.
Advanced degrees, personal experience and rhetorical devices do not truth make.
God is truth. God is love.
Love God, love truth.
Love your neighbor, tell them the truth.
The audacity of liberal disbelief.

God’s (?) Country (would that be the Good Ole U. S. of A. (TM)?),
“The behavior is what counts.”
Except homosexual persons are still attracted to others of the same sex (i.e. are still homosexual) whether they act on the attraction or not.
Your comparison of consenting relationships to “A thief are wrong-headed and maliciously uncharitable. Theft causes harm. My relationship does not. And someone who does not steal is not a thief, your conjecture to the contrary.
“A thief who dreams of plundering the local bank vault and the thief who actually does this are probably both thieves”
No, they aren’t. The one who didn’t steal is not a thief. Anymore than if I have a dream of murdering someone makes me a murderer. A dream is just that – a dream. Wake up from your self-deluded slumber and STOP ‘dreaming’.
“Divorce is evil, thinking about it is bad enough, but ditching your spouse and family is infinitely worse.”
Not sure how that applies to this discussion. I’m not divorced, nor have I ‘ditched my spouse’. Please stay on topic.
“The same for homosexuality. The same for rape. The same for child molestation. The same for fornication. The same for adultery.”
Ah, there’s that loving Christian attitude we’ve come to know so well. My marriage has not resulted in a rape, in child molestation, etc. Be healed of your filthy hatred and lying comparisons.
“He says to lust after your neighbors spouse is as bad as the sex act would be.”/I>
We speak of love of spouse, you speak of lust for a neighbor’s spouse. No wonder we can’t agree on much.
“But, we are not God and do not see the true thoughts and true heart urges of others.”
Then stop trying to act like God, especially considering you cannot see the “true thoughts and true heart urges”.
“Homosexual behavior is evil.”
According to your faith beliefs. Mine disagree. Get over it.