The church’s tax-exempt status should be yanked. It’s a policy which is clearly calculated to intimidate polticians and disgrace them in order to push a partisan political agenda.

All Churches that practise politics and collect monies in collection plates, as I saw in the news in a RCC, to uphold organizations to change laws should lose their tax-exempt status.

Hats off to Cardianal O’Malley! His statements in the last 2 paragraphs says it all….his compassion for a Catholic who didn’t happen to agree with all the RCC claims to stand for.

Oh, and the RCC has no business trying to tell politicians what to do just because they are RC. There job is to stay out of politics…but then the RCC has trouble staying out of other folks business…RC and non-RC.

Well, this is obvious intended to intimidate and force church policy.
The RCC can do as it will as far as determining what its members can or can not do, what they must believe in order to be a good Catholic.
That said, with this ruling, i think the IRS should yank their tax exempt status and be done with it.

If a persons beliefs are in contradiction with their actions it is self serving for them to claim beliefs they do not embrace fully. Either you are a Catholic or you are not. You cannot be a Catholic and believe abortion is not murder.

Yes, pagansister, it is exactly the Church’s job to guide its member-politicians in what to do on certain matters. Would you have the same complaint if the Church were telling a Catholic politician that it’s against Catholic moral teaching to commit genocide, invade and conquer other countries, or legalize slavery?
Catholicism is a religion with political implications. No amount of revisionist theology is going to change that.

Furthermore, you can not be a Christian and believe abortion is anything but the murder of an innocent human being, by the very person the baby is depending upon for love and life.
Nevermind Catholic or Christian, a person who believes these things is not a suitable representative of humanity.
The Cardinal desecrated the rites. Since they wouldn’t believe what they heard from the churches perspective anyway, let those that need closure in such a case as this make up their own words.

The Vatican is a foreign country. Let any bishop who takes his orders from the Vatican be charged with treason, and be done with them. Keep the goddamned papists from manipulating our government.

This article states that the Conservative Roman Catholics are pushing for No Funerals for Pro Abortion Politicians. The other half of the RC equation is the Liberal Roman Catholics, as the Episcopal Church and the Lutheran Churches are going through. The American voting citizens must be very careful when we vote if we don’t want the Vatican to manipulate our government it seems.

Yes, everyone (including Catholics who wisely don’t want their church running things here) should think twice before voting for a Catholic these days. The Church makes it very hard to trust a Catholic politician, especially one who has not declared he or she will vote his or her conscience and for the good of the voters, not to satisfy some foreign religious leaders.
And that’s a real shame because there are some good Catholic candidates.
Oh, and it’s interesting how these leaders ignore things like dealing with poverty, which Jesus urged, and concentrate on abortion, which Jesus ignored.

Doesn’t the Catholic Church give funerals to actual murders that are confirmed Catholic? If so then I think all of the Catholics here arguing for the Church should address that double standard. The Church cannot pick and choose who to give funerary rites on the basis of politics.

Actually, the same American bishops conference that puts out pro-life materials also puts out materials promoting economic justice for the poor, nnmns, because official Catholic social teaching includes both. You can’t assume that people ignore some other issue just because they don’t happen to be talking about it at the moment.

Excellent, just watch your church pews empty out little by little until you change your backward ways or you have to close your doors. It’s that simple.

I myself wouldn’t mind a “thinning of the herd”. Maybe fairly painful, yet necessary to avoid scandal. So long as remaining Catholics agree to adhere to Church teaching.

nnmns makes a very good point. Can a non-Catholic, in conscience, vote for a Roman Catholic, or even countenance a Roman Catholic holding any position in government at any level, if that Roman Catholic is more concerned with his funeral than with his service to the country?
It is an interesting can of worms the poor Archbishop is opening, one that may put abuse cases under federal jusrisdiction with no statute of limitations and no bankruptcy protection from judgements.

O’Malley gave Edward Kennedy what the Church offers all sinners, the sacraments instituted by Christ for the very purpose of saving sinners. Never did the Cardinal say Kennedy was sinless. Making public judgments on deceased people’s degree of sinfulness is not what the Church is about. The Church also gives funerals to victims of suicides and of the death penalty.
Sean Cardinal O’Malley’s participation in Senator Kennedy’s funeral is certainly not evidence that he has “softened” on abortion. The Cardinal’s compassion was strictly to Kennedy the man, not to the causes Kennedy supported.
The Cardinal showed by example how we are to treat one another as we debate every issue including abortion: with love (starting with respect) and service to one another.
Jesus didn’t speak about abortion per se, but his answer when asked how one is to live a righteous life was: “You know the commandments: Do not murder…” (Mark 10:19). He quoted this commandment first. At another time, he said (Matthew 9:13) “But go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
On the issue of abortion there is no debate within the Church. “Thou shalt not kill” has no footnotes. And the commandment applies to the death penalty, so both political parties are wrong about some things and right about others. Life is the underlying right that enables every other right, the prerequisite to any fact or act of existence, including repentance and conversion, which the RC Church desires for all human beings before they die.
Cardinal O’Malley has spoken and written very clearly on the death penalty issue. The Roman Catholic Church defends life, beginning, middle, and end, and proclaims a priority for the poor. It has more actions to help mothers and families than any other institution in the world (I live in Africa and see it daily), and it aims to protect women’s dignity infinitely more than so-called pro-choice advocates who try to promote the morality of ripping babies out of women’s wombs. What is more empowering: to say to a woman “You can’t handle having a child”, or “You and the life you carry are infinitely precious, and I’m right by your side to help”?
Who among us was never a fetus? If your mother had had an abortion, would you be reading this? Would you have a chance to reply to this comment?
Jesus suffered and died to redeem sinners, not to make it okay to sin. Jesus said “Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!” (Matthew 18:7) Just because people do things doesn’t make them right; polls do not decide right and wrong.

Tom, the Church is not into “thinning” but converting. Who among us is sinless? Where would you draw the line? Let’s leave that to God, and love and serve one another. Wash each other’s feet, so to speak.
Charles Cosimano, idem for voting: which politician is sinless or espouses the Church’s teachings 100%? Those who talk the talk are caught with their pants down, those who aren’t saying what we wish to hear are out there doing the right thing, etc… Just like the rest of us. Roman Catholics have to vote (or withhold their vote) according to the conscience and the intellectual powers God gives them. If you feel very strongly about this, get into the action at your local parish or political party HQ.

If my mother had had an abortion, then no, I wouldn’t have been reading this. On the other hand, if she had had one, that can only mean that my life was meant to be lived not longer than the nine or less months I spent inside her. She would have had her reasons for doing what she did, and who would anyone have been to judge her for them? Do we ever have the right to think for women who make these decisions? Women who choose to abort a pregnancy do not do so because they’re deadset on committing a murder. Anyone who thinks that has absolutely no idea about what these women are going through.
Perhaps the so-called Church chooses to forget that it has played a role in the abortion issue by discriminating against and socially excommunicating women who are pregnant and not married. This archbishop is an example of the hastily judgemental stance of this church. And what about the teachings of forgiveness? He’s apparently forgotten about that, too. Who is more honest here — he, or the women who come forward and acknowledge that they are in no shape to raise a child? I know some people will stand up, raise their fists, and shout, without thinking, ‘Oh, but you can always put up the child for adoption!’ As though it was a cut-and-dried recipe. The fault of many (Catholics and other fanatics) is that they simplify too many things. ‘The Church says this’, or even ‘The Bible says this’, and that’s enough, without really thinking of the REAL WORLD they’re in, and the heavily prejudicial position they enjoy attaching to themselves.
How many unwanted children have been brought into the world and have been made to suffer abuse, in all imaginable and even unimaginable forms anyone can come up with? How many have had to endure poverty, crime, poor health, and even downright neglect? Have the pharisees succeeded in assisting these legitimately born children?
Abortion is only a problem if anyone wants it to be one. Women should be left alone to decide for themselves. If there is a God, they’ll have to answer for themselves anyway, and no one has to do it for them. Besides, most likely, He’ll opt to listen more to their story, a lot more than we would. Our judgemental and prejudicial attitudes — THAT’s what should worry us.

If a Catholic is required to push their Church’s idea of sin on the law of the land, no one who does not want a theocracy would vote for them in good conscience.
One of the mortal sins according to the Catholic Church is not going to Mass on Sunday. Do you want that put into law?
Laws are there to protect our individual freedoms and make sure our basic needs are met, not to decree what is moral and immoral, so it should not be necessary (even I believe according to Catholic teaching) to put one’s belief into the law of the land.
Legality does not equal morality.

Does this mean the Pro-Abortionists won’t die? Hmmm. That seems to be a conflict of theologies from the Prefect. One might think he would like to offer free funerals instead. Oh well.
Again, we have different views of sacraments and rites. For some these traditions are rewards for good behavior. For others they are the means for including people. I work from the second view, the prefect works from the other. Neither of us is perfect – he is simply more vocal and forceful. I always thought we (clergy) were called to be more pastoral – you know, “Feed my sheep” and all. Again, different views.

NateW, it is always good to realize that there are priests, archbishops etc., who live in reality. All the RC folks don’t agree with everything the RC puts out….artificial birth control is used, homosexuality is accepted by many RC’s, living together before marriage, sex before marriage, as examples. Ted Kennedy happened to be one of those RC men. If I understand correctly, a prisoner who has been sentenced to death gets a priest to do the last bit of prayers etc., so how can they say that a person such as Kennedy (who was by no means perfect) and other politicians who happen to disagree with some of the RC teachings can’t do the sacraments…or get a real live Catholic funeral??

If the Prefect wants to push more Catholics into the Anglican church, or (better still) if he likes empty pews on a Sunday morning, he’s going the right way about it.
“Neither Holy Communion nor funeral rites should be administered to such politicians,” Burke said, according to InsideCatholic.com, which hosted the event. “To deny these is not a judgment of the soul, but a recognition of the scandal and its effects.”
Indeed it is a judgment of the soul, an open declaration that these people are in a state of rebellion against what the Prefect defines as Catholicism. We need more such rebels, for the good of all Christian denominations.

Nate:

Actually, the same American bishops conference that puts out pro-life materials also puts out materials promoting economic justice for the poor, nnmns, because official Catholic social teaching includes both. You can’t assume that people ignore some other issue just because they don’t happen to be talking about it at the moment.

I understand that Nate, but apparently Burke does not because he’s only withholding these (to RC’s) valuable benefits from politicians who support the right to abortion, not to the Republican politicians who deny medical coverage and a living wage and cut the funding of the agencies that make our workplaces safer.
This was a very political act. No more, no less. Burke and his ilk are happy and comfortable among the rich whose wives and daughters can fly away to get their abortions where they are safe and legal, but who do not want the masses to be comfortable, both because their taxes would be involved and because they would be less likely to work for very little.

Mater Misericordiae, Ora pro nobis…

Mother of Mercy, pray for us. (or Mater Misericordiae, Ora pro nobis). J. Patrick
And that will do what? Help or hender the RCC in it’s efforts to control the Catholic politicians who happen to be elected..and work for the people (or are supposed to) not the church. Ted Kennedy worked for the people…

“”…Abortion is only a problem if anyone wants it to be one. Women should be left alone to decide for themselves. If there is a God, they’ll have to answer for themselves anyway, and no one has to do it for them…”"
If this comment was distilled to it’s essence, it almost becomes a form of the motto of one of our armed forces or a unit thereof;
“Kill them all and let God sort them out”.

GC, god has nothing to do with it….the woman makes the determination of what happens to HER body…no one else. Hard for you to understand, I know. But fortunately you have nothing to say about it either.

pagan actually for the baby it’s unfortunate.

Still the woman’s decision, cknuck.

“”…the woman makes the determination of what happens to HER body…”"
…as in:
Prostitution.
Drug abuse.
Suicide.
Smoking.
Gluttony.
Alcoholism.
Unfortunately for the “Her body” deception, the baby is half dad, half mother and all and all an individual. Like all of us.
Motherhood used to be noble, the epitome of humanity.
Pagans have turned it upside down, despoiling it.
Time to turn pagans back into the forest and let them live like the beasts they want all the rest of us to live like.

pagan it’s only the woman’s decision because the baby it totally helpless and depending on the woman for safety and nurturing, yes the woman can deny those items to the baby but is it right.

First, GC, we went through all that prostitution, drug abuse etc. list on another article mentioning abortion and I’m not going to waste my time going thru your little list again…as it is useless to do so with you.
FYI, we Pagans aren’t the only ones who feel a woman has the right to control her own body. There are many others of other religions who do too, Christians included. (I know, they wouldn’t really be Christians…whatever).
As to returning to the woods? I love the woods, I already live in woods. As to beasts? We’re all animals if you stop and think about it. )
Cknuck: Is it right? Each woman has to decide that for herself. It isn’t up to anyone else to decide that for her. She is the one who has to live with her decision.

“”…Each woman has to decide that for herself. It isn’t up to anyone else to decide that for her. She is the one who has to live with her decision…”"
…As in prostitution, drug abuse, suicide, smoking, alcoholism, anorexia/bulemia…what are you, some sort of radical libertarian? No, I’ll answer that – radical liberal. You know it’s wrong, but if it supports a woman’s right to “choice”, and you’ve got no real argument against any of the former…as long as it’s a woman’s choice.
Right?
The audacity of Liberal “thought”.

To so-called ‘GodsCountry’
Your calling people pagans is yet another manifestation of your judgemental nature. Pagans CAN be very good people, in fact even better, because they allow the rest of the so-called believers to just be themselves. You, on the other hand, have the tendency to force others to believe as you do. A sure-fire way to turn people away from ANY faith.
At least, obviously, you do love yourself more than you do others. That can’t be bad. Z;>))

To so-called ‘GodsCountry’
The ‘audacity of liberal thought’??? I have to smile at this one. Anyone more liberal than God, whatever religion he may ‘belong’ to (and I’d bet he’d smile at the word ‘religion’ as well, since by definition alone He’s way beyond it)??? Thank ANY GOD for liberal thought! Down with any and all brainwashing churches! He sure had the audacity to create ALL KINDS of people and creatures, who were supposed to live in harmony with each other, appreciative of what makes each one unique — including those you love to label pagans, prostitutes, alcoholics, addicts, and the lot.
Oh man, despite your judgemental and bigoted remarks, I do hope you find the peace you’re looking for one day. Some of these outcasts you’ve mentioned have probably attained it already.

GD Oh, I mean GC:
Let’s face it, it is impossible for you to understand something as simple as a Human Being being responsible for their own decisions…whether to take drugs, engage in the oldest profession on earth, smoke, commit crimes against others, have an abortion, eat too much, or kill themselves immediately. This god of yours gave humans ‘free will” I’m told. Thus with that “free will” they can pretty much do as they please. Fortunately many years ago humans set rules and laws up in order to try and control those that would run about killing at will, or stealing, raping etc. Some choose to break those laws and pay for it with jail time or their lives. Others realize that breaking the laws is wrong and not worth it…best to live within those laws. Laws are broken by those with religious views and those without, by those who are conservative and those who aren’t. So what is your problem admitting that a woman has the right to do as she feels with HER OWN BODY? Men smoke, drink, do drugs, hire their bodies out, etc. If men could get pregnant I’d say the same thing…they have control over their own bodies….and actually they do have control over their own bodies. IT’s not just a “woman thing” or perhaps for you it is. Yes, I’m liberal and proud of it.
Ella the Wag:
Good label “so called God’s Country”. A lot like OCD.

pagan quote, “GD Oh, I mean GC”
It’s interesting to see how low you can sink to pagan.

Right, cknuck. Not you’ve ever done that…I’ve personally had you sink really low in some of your comments to me….so you really have no reason to comment. At one point attacking my parents. Don’t preach to me.
As to the comment to GC…if the shoe fits….
Am I perfect…by no means. No one is. That is mild. Have restrained myself many times from reactions he has invoked in me.
Have a nice day.

Word “like” should be in “Not LIKE you’ve ever done that…”

pagan how on earth did I attack your parents aren’t you the one that said your dad was a police during the civil rights struggles down south where the police turned dogs loose on African American people and hosed us with fire hoses and those were just the things they did in public I won’t go into what they did when no witnesses were around.

NO, cknuck, my father wasn’t a policeman…I never said it because it wasn’t true. He was a PhD, at the University of Alabama. All he did was live and work in the city it happened in. So you’re claiming you never denigrated my parents? Well, you did. I remember it well, so much so that it would qualify for reportable on this site. I really don’t care what you say about me, but I won’t laugh off things about my parents. Simple. Comments towards my beliefs and comments I find interesting and usually funny. Won’t acccept anything about family. Off limits.
As to the conduct of the police during that time? Not right, in anyone’s eyes, including my parents. So your whole idea and impression was and is wrong. My parents were gentle, non-violent people. I wouldn’t have lied and said otherwise ..that would be pointless.

BTW, CK, why is GD or Gosh Darn a problem?

Oh it must have been H22′s dad that was the police in the south, sorry but did the U of A have a policy concerning African American people?

Policy on Blacks at the U of AL. in 1960 cknuck? I have no idea. Dad ran the Hearing and Speech clinic, and he tested everyone that came in regardless of race.

Pagan, you are lost.
You present no evidence to the contrary. Your very name proclaims it.
God is willing to give you a life that matters, has eternal value, but you must make the first move.

Believe me, GC, I am so NOT lost. If this is lost, this is one of the happiest times I’ve been in my whole life. Lots of happy family things happening right now. So give me lost, dude, give me lost. All happening without your divine leader. Funny that. Many more ways than one to find and have happiness.
Keep praying you should have it so good.

BTW, GC, the word Pagan (from the Latin, pagani) means “country dweller”. I chose that name since I don’t worship JC or his heavenly father VS Joseph, the earthly dad…better known as the guy who married Mary, who was impregnanted magicly. That in itself makes the whole story as hard to believe as the coming back from the dead one.
My “very name” proclaims I don’t happen to follow Christianity. Period. I am one of 3 sisters, the only one who doesn’t follow Chrisitanity. Thus the name.
Oh, my life does matter…sorry to disappoint.

Good things happen to bad people and bad things to good. But, that is not the point.
The point is; you are lost and there is only one way to find the right way; follow the One who died for you, whose blood can make you clean.
Happiness will give way to joy and temporal “good” to eternal life.

Your little saying, GC, about good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good…not very original. Has nothing to do with anything, actually. You know, being told I’m “lost” is also getting old. I’m probably a good 25 to 30 years older than you are…(or not) but have been around long enough to know my own mind. You aren’t very convincing.

“”…You aren’t very convincing…”"
I don’t need to be. The truth carries it’s own weight.
You belong to God and cannot deny it forever. Why not give up the devils advocate position you have so foolishly taken up?
I know I am making you think – anyone can tell by reading your responses.
God want’s you back.

FYI, GC, I belong to no one! Slaves belonged to folks, and since slavery is morally wrong, and also not legal anymore, thus I belong to no one. What’s to deny? The truth? Just what IS THE truth? Not what your selling, believe me.
You’re making me think? Don’t flatter yourself.

“”…Just what IS THE truth? Not what your selling, believe me…”"
…and you know this because…???

“…and you know this because…???? GC
Because I have lived as long as I have. What you’re trying to sell has been tried by others….even one of my sisters (who I love very much). But my sister knows better than to preach to me. Preaching only goes in one ear and totally out the other as I don’t believe it and haven’t for the majority of my life. Life has taught me (and it has been a great life so far) I’m good just the way I am.

Looks like my point’s been more than proven. At least I can now laugh at all your arguments. Hey, people, wake up and enjoy life! Try to put yourselves in other peoples’ shoes for a change, and appreciate their point of view! That little pigeon-hole you have in your head isn’t worth it.
And to that pathetic little archbishop … well, that’s not my problem any more. Good day! Z;>)

Better than a thousand useless words is one word that gives peace.
Buddha
… and that I wish everyone, even the women who have ever had anything to do with abortion, and those who love to condemn them. Because people like you, so called godscountry, do just that. You’re the guys who make our society a less happy place. Just let people be. What is so difficult about that? Kids in kindergarten know a lot more about it than you do.

“…You’re the guys who make our society a less happy place…”
…and murdering a million mother’s unborn babies makes this world happy?
No.
Only you, the deranged few.

One thing that would make the world a better and happier place would be fewer unwanted pregnancies. My guess is that everyone could support that idea. The argument arises over how to achieve that desirable goal. “Preach and teach abstinence!” say some. “Sex education and access to contraception!” say others. And guess what? They are both good ideas. The problem is that many of those who think abstinence is the answer think it is the ONLY answer, and so they oppose sex education and contraception.
Reality check:Abstinence-only doesn’t work on a society-wide level. Individuals can make that choice, but formulating state and national policy on the thoroughly refuted fantasy that abstinence-only will be effective for society in general is lunacy.
Does sex education and access to contraception undermine the abstinence message? No. It recognizes that different people have different values. One way that the abstinence message could be delivered more effectively would be to jettison the hyper-religiosity that currently weighs it down. If the main motivation for abstinence is “God hates non-marital sex,” then the message is lost to all but the Bible-besotted segment of the population. If the motivation is “Irresponsible sex can wreak emotional havoc in people’s lives even if STDs and unwanted pregnancy never happen,” then a much greater number of people may listen. For the real problem is not sex, per se, but immaturity and irresponsibility in sex, and real sex education addresses those issues as well as lessons in anatomy and use of prophylaxis and contraception.
Another related thing that would make the world a better and happier place would be if the Bible-besotted shed their smug superiority (never more openly on display than when they are wailing about being the lowliest of sinners)–the false sense that they alone have moral sensibility. On this issue, that false sense takes the form of portraying women who have had abortions as casual murderers for whom the procedure has no more moral and emotional significance than a trip to the dermatologist for removal of a wart. Considering the disproportionate amount of crimes, atrocities, injustice and general misery that hyper-religiosity has caused in human history, my unwanted advice to the Bible-besotted would be to re-read Matthew 7:3-5.

H4C,
Well said as usual. Those that are so sold on the Holy Book aren’t going to change their minds on abortion…because they really are convinced that those women are committing a “sin”. Well, let’s hope there is never a reason for “their women” to have to have an abortion to save that woman’s life. Of course they’d probably let the woman die so the embryo could be saved…after all…she has had a life, the embryo hasn’t!! The fact that the embryo couldn’t survive outside the womb is, naturally, beside the point!