Good for ELCA.

Yes,it is indeed good!

How to wreck your church for dummies

Same old same old. Let’s talk about something more important: health care.
Here’s an article by a Nobel Laureate economist on some common myths about the health care reform package trying to be born.
It’s not a perfect bill but it would save money and get health care to most of the Americans who don’t have it now and it would protect the rest of us from some of the worst insurance company abuses. Read the column.

As much as I like to think of myself a forward thinker I have a real issue with this decision. I really have no problem with anyone’s sexuality as this is a personal issue in almost every way but as a “spiritual leader” it most definitly presents many problems. The scriptures are extremely clear as to what God thinks about this and it is in NO way favorable. It is basically the same as having a Pastor that chooses to have a gambling or substance abuse problem. These are sins of the flesh. A Spiritual leader has the utmost responsibility to “Lead and show direction” to his/her flock and should be above reproach. God loves us all, absolutly no question about that and I am NOT trying to say in any way that I condone any punitive behavior toward these folks as ALL should be able to worship but NOT as the leader of a congregation. I actually work in a Church and this is a “hot button” issue with some on one side and some far apart on the other. I am not sure if there will ever be any clear cut winner in this. I am sure that some will see my post as “homophobic” and other choice words but I can assure these same people that I am fortunate to have many gay friends whose friendship I truly cherish. I really feel torn on this issue and wish there were an easy way to rectify it but I am afraid it will continue to be a problem for many, many people. This is sure to be a “test” and pray that we can all pass in the correct way.

Glenn
Thank you for your gracious comments. As someone who has been in the Gay lifestyle and left that life to follow the calling of Christ on my life, I applaud your efforts. The love of Christ is for all. He does not beat up people, but loves them into the Kingdom.
“Go and sin no more.”
Christians do a good job of fighting against things, but as the Body of Christ, we are called to love people just as they are. That does not mean that I have to agree with their decisions or their lifestyle, but to love them nonetheless.
To tolerate something means to disagree with it, but to deal with it as it is. I may not agree with the behaviour of someone who lives an actively gay lifestyle, but I can still love that person.

Ah! Who is qualified to be a “spiritual leader”? Uh, maybe someone who is spiritually alive and awake? Can a gay person be spiritually alive and awake? If so, then a gay person can be a spiritual leader.
Now what would it mean to say that a gay person cannot be spiritually alive and awake? If “sin” (whatever that may be during the current phase of the moon) precludes being spiritually alive and awake, then only the sinless can lead. Which means no one can lead. Which means the church is dead. If someone were to claim “I am sinless thanks to being washed clean of sin by the blood of the lamb,” then ANY professed Christian can lead, including gay people. How is anyone to know who is truly sinless? Some of the loudest Bible-thumping televangelists have been revealed as wallowing in “sin” and fraud. Yes, we can say that God knows who is who even if we can’t always distinguish between people of true faith and people who merely proclaim faith — but people, not God, select other people to serve as church leaders, and if we can’t know with certainty that one proclaimer of the faith is genuine while another is a huckster, then likewise we can’t know with certainty that a gay person must automatically be disqualified from leadership.
Now all of that was about “spiritual leadership.” If, on the other hand, what we really care about is “religious leadership,” then that is an entirely separate issue, to be determined on the basis of who seemingly lives closest to the precepts of the church. Those precepts have only some coincidental overlap with spiritual aliveness and wakefulness.
So this question of who is qualified to lead a church really hinges on whether those qualifications relate to spiritual aliveness and wakefulness or religious correctness.

PS to previous:
Spiritual aliveness and wakefulness is not determined by sexual orientation. A stable and loving relationship between 2 people is conducive to spiritual aliveness and wakefulness, regardless of whether the couple is homosexual or heterosexual. A coercive or abusive or deceptive relationship between 2 people is incompatible with spiritual aliveness and wakefulness, again regardless of whether the couple is homosexual or heterosexual. Spiritual aliveness and wakefulness are not defined by anatomy.

HforC, insightful posting, as usual. As others have said on this site, if you believe one verse in the Bible so fervently as Glenn and Goldberg do then it follows that they should all be equally fervent about divorce, shellfish, material we wear, etc.

Spiritually alive to what spirit because if it is God there is a definite godly design and homosexuality ain’t it. A person’s sexuality is important don’t believe the lie that it’s not. We honor God with our sexuality Jesus and Paul spent time talking about it for a reason. It is very clear in both the old Testaments and new about sexuality very clear and distinct instructions about relationships and how they honor God and nowhere, I repeat nowhere in the bible is there instructions on honoring God through homosexual relationships or any other diversion from the heterosexual design God created. There is no indication God created any other design and the list is long, homosexuality is just one variation on the list that is outside of the design created by God. People get offended when you name the other forms sexual diversions but they are what they are.

And revelations of what’s been happening for decades, likely centuries, in the RCC demonstrate the foolishness of encouraging the single life in your religious leaders.

cknuck,
But your assumption is that the Bible points the way to honoring God. If it is for you, fine. But it is not so for everyone. I do not view the Bible as God’s direct word telling us “Here is how you people should worship and honor me.” The fact that some ancient people viewed God in a certain way and wrote down what they thought does not mean I must view God as they did.
At this point, I am invariably accused of “making up my own religion.” Yes indeed. My faith is what I experience, not what some pastor told me I should believe.

“The scriptures are extremely clear as to what God thinks about this”
Glenn, this is a common – though false trope. IF the Scriptures were “extremely clear”, there would be no debate. They aren’t, and there is.
“The scriptures are extremely clear as to what God thinks about this “
Apparently, the ECLA disagrees with you. As do I.
“A Spiritual leader has the utmost responsibility to “Lead and show direction” to his/her flock and should be above reproach. “
Apparently, the ECLA believes that openly gay/lesbian pastors can both “Lead and show direction” AND can be above reproach. (Though I do find it odd that it is the reproachers – like you and cknuck – keep harping on and on about what you admit are “personal issues”. Maybe it’s just you that has the ‘issues’.) Also, you’re comparison to committed, loving relationships to gambling and substance abuse is as odious [and false] as ever. Certainly not something a Christian would say, because, um, that would be the bearing of false witness – which is not only a sin, but one of the Big 10 – and also uncharitable. Why is it the Christians are always the first to lack charity?)
“I am NOT trying to say in any way that I condone any punitive behavior toward these folks as ALL should be able to worship but NOT as the leader of a congregation.”
Yes, you ARE saying exactly that – the punishment is not being able to serve/worship/lead. My pastor is gay, and it is NOT an ‘issue’ in our congregation.
“I am not sure if there will ever be any clear cut winner in this.”
It isn’t a matter of ‘winning’ or of ‘losing’, but of treating all God’s children equally and with justice and compassion.
“I am sure that some will see my post as “homophobic” and other choice words but I can assure these same people that I am fortunate to have many gay friends whose friendship I truly cherish.”
If you actually “cherished” your gay friends, you’d treat them equally or, as the Bible says, as you would be treated. You don’t. Hence your duplicity and your homophobia are both showing. Tell your gay ‘friends’ what you thnkn about how gays shouldn’t be treated equally and be allowed to be leaders and see if they’re still your friends.

Wouldn’t it be nice if there was a time when a person was hired to be a minister, bishop, archbishop or whatever in a religious setting and no one, absolutely no one worried about their sexuality…who they love. A person should be hired for their skills in leading a congregation, relating to that congregation, their compassion, ability to give a meaningful sermon, their knowledge of the book that the religion uses a a guide etc. Their sexual orientation should not be in consideration. Maybe this world will come to it’s senses and realize consenting adults shouldn’t have to live to someone else’s idea of what is right or not in the area of love and relationships.

A spiritual leader (in a christian setting) should be based upon how someone believes and follows the scriptures. That includes their sexuality and every other aspect of thier lives. The issue with sexuality and someone as a professing christian living an active gay lifestyle is that it is someone living in open rebellion to what the bible says. That in itself is a disqualification for leadership. Someone who is not open to changing towards God’s design.
As for the reason for the debate, that si a question of people not willing to hear the truth and wanting to make up their own beliefs.
The bible is clear that it was god inspired, but penned by human beings. They may have written it with their hands, but God gave them the words.

H4C it is true, and I’m glad you recognize that you make up your own religion as you go so does ECLA but they are not as honest as you are about what they are doing. YOur honesty is refreshing although I disagree with you on just about all points.
SB quote, “you and cknuck – keep harping on and on about what you admit are “personal issues”.”
A few lines down after you write this false statement you comment on bearing false witness. It is not personal issues it is written in the bible and clear in God’s design for men and women the human family as a whole. My challenge was and is that someone would show me in the bible where does God affirm homosexuality. Let me help you nowhere in the bible is there any indication that homosexuality is anything other than the sin nature of man. That’s not a personal opinion it is a biblical truth.

cknuck your claimed reliance on “scripture”, which is a) so fuzzy different people can honestly read it and get different conclusions and b) so poorly founded, in that it went for centuries being re-written by hand in dark places by people who sometimes made mistakes and sometimes intentionally made changes.
If you and RG want to depend on that for your lives that’s your right but for you to try to force your poorly-founded beliefs onto other people’s lives is outrageous. I just wish it were half as unusual as it is outrageous.

Nowhere have i tried to force my beliefs on you. I have merely stated them and what they are based upon. If they offend you that is not something that I can change, but I am not going to change my beliefs merely to appease you or figure out a way not to offend. I can discuss these issues with dignity and rrespect, but I can respectfully disagree. It is those that have consistently wanted to accuse me of lying, or deceiving them or myself because of my beliefs and my decisions that are offensive. While I try to be respectful of the fact that you can believe what you want, the same respect does not seem to be reciprocated. This has consistently been the case in all of the debate and discussion we have had on the articles posted on this same issue. I am confident in my stance and in my beliefs. I have NEVER said that everyone who is living a homosexual lifestyle is not going to heaven nor have i said that every heterosexual is going to heaven. I believe, based upon what the bible says and based upion Jesus’ own words that “Noone comes to the Father but through [Jesus]“. I will let God be the ultimate judge of someone’s heart. When we are told not to judge, that is talking about the condition of someone’s heart toward Christ. But we are also told that we can look at the fruit of someones labor, we can judge their actions in light of what scripture says.

nnmns that is the general language that is employed by folks that have a problem with scripture, no one is forcing anything on anyone what you really are saying is that you are attempting to band all religious references and extinguish or eliminate all religious freedoms. One day that may become a acceptable to eliminate religious freedoms but even then people will still be drawn to the Lord.

cknuck and, I think, RG are urging that their interpretation of what marriage is should be the law. Thus cknuck and I think RG are trying to force their poorly-founded beliefs onto other people’s lives. And now he/they are lying about it.
And cknuck you have no evidence I’m trying to “band”, or even ban, anyone’s religious freedoms other than trying to restrict their ability to inflict their religious ideas onto innocent people.

cknuck I’m watching “Who Do You Think You Are” on NBC. They are tracing the genealogy of Emmit Smith. So far they just got back to one of his ancestor’s last (?) owners. If you are still on the west coast you still have time to see it all; I’d think it might be of interest to you.

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nnmns can you report the new ad person?

I’ve seen the genealogy tracing thing involving African Americans on PBS several times you’d be surprised how closely we may be related. I am aware of the many races we have in my family tree and pretty darn proud.

cknuck, I’ve already reported (today) this newest ad person, who I suspect is the same person as “jimm” that I and nnmns have reported also. I’ve clicked on the triangle today as well as sending several days ago a triangle message as well as 2 emails to the community @ staff email address (for “jimm” ads). They certainly have gotten through the lines a few times already. “girl” is also on a couple of other blogs today.

I reported a couple of them earlier.
And you probably should be proud of your ancestors. I have a mixture of pride for accomplishments and some shame for what some of them have done to others.

Ah, evolution – we all have a common set of ancestors. It must really aggravate (in a Good Way) White Supremacists to know we all come from Africa. I love to poetry of it all.

I don’t think it has so much to do with evolution as natural attraction winning out over unnatural prejudice. Love it when that happens.

NIcely said, cknuck. I like that….”….natural attraction winning out over unnatural prejudice.”

Let the gay guy or lesbian be your spiritual guide. Gays reproduce through recruitment. Don’t leave your children alone with them.