Is there any doubt left that those in charge of the denomination could not care less that the denomination is going down the toilet. It is all about political grandstanding in the far liberal left la-la land.
Many reasonable progressives talked about holding off and concentrating on mission. That isn’t going to happen. The leaders will not let the topic of conversation be changed.

And progress continues.

JumpedShip-
Actually, there is no doubt that those in charge….and, the majority of Episcopalians do not agree with you.
Our leadership is indeed very focused on mission. It appears that you are taking exception to the Church holding up and sticking to our values. Why?
As pagansister has already stated: “And progress continues.”
Peace!

It’s a sad day. Now I have to decide whether or not to leave the Episcopal Church.

interpreter-
Why would you leave the Episcopal Church?
Peace!

I don’t blame him, I would leave my Church as well if they decided to forget about what the bible says and make Political progressivism there new religion.

sin begets sin

So what else is new? The history of the church has been an ongoing series of schisms and unions, internecine warfare and ecumenical alliances. And always, it is about the burning question, Who Gets Ownership of God? Which church gets to proclaim that it alone is the One True Faith, that its members are the True Christians… blah blah blah.
Jesus taught profound spiritual truths. People who call themselves Christians might do well to think more on those truths and less on the politics and posturing of those human inventions called churches.

JohnQ writes, “Actually, there is no doubt that those in charge….and, the majority of Episcopalians do not agree with you.”
The stats say that the average Episcopal parish is moderately conservative. But most of these are older parishioners that don’t want to move and are basically waiting to die.
It is absolutely true that the “majority” of Episcopalians will eventually not agree with me after the conservatives are driven off (mostly true now), the moderate conservatives are driven off, the moderates are driven off, the moderate liberals are driven off. Soon all there will be left are the stark raving lunatic left who are unanimous in their support of the radical leftist leadership that hijacked the once Christian denomination and made a progressive PAC. Of course, the denomination will then merge with the Unitarians (membership ~50,000).
Pagansister’s “progress” is the death of Christian churches. Hardly, something to be in agreement with.

JumpedShip-
Since we elect our vestry, elect our rectors, elect our bishops, and our House of Deputies….how are you suggesting that “radical leftist leadership that hijacked the once Christian denomination” were able to do that?
Peace!

I went back and read through the long list of comments on another board dealing with gays and church leadership, and some questions came into my mind as people argued over what the Bible does and doesn’t say:
1. Someone said, “Homosexuality is idolatry.” Really?? I thought idolatry is false worship, devotion to false gods, misplaced faith in material icons and images supposedly representing God.
2. If homosexuality is so offensive to God, why was it not condemned clearly and explicitly in the 10 commandments?
3. Paul didn’t like homosexuality. Well, he obviously didn’t think too highly of sexuality in general (1 Cor 7:7), but it raises an interesting question, which goes with some of the comments on that other board, about whether we should just throw out the writings of Paul. Consider: Suppose that someone believes that the Bible is 100% accurate and true. Does that mean that everything quoted from everyone in the Bible is correct? Suppose I said in public, “Two plus two equals seven,” and someone of scrupulous honesty and unfailing accuracy writes down exactly what I said and attributes that statement to me correctly. Now there is a 100% accurate and true account of something I said. Does the accuracy of the account mean that what I said is true? Does 2 + 2 = 7 because there is an accurate account of my having said so? Or suppose I wrote that statement myself, and future generations find my original statement and confirm with certainty that I did indeed write it. Does that make it a true statement? Of course not. Yet those who believe in scriptural literalism and infallibility assume that if the statements attributed to Paul are accurately given, then those statements must be true. WHY? Paul was a human being; so, for that matter, were the ancient priests whose anti-gay pronouncements form a portion of the book we call Leviticus. Is anyone going to claim that Paul and the ancient priests were all infallible? If they were human, they were fallible; only if they were equivalent to God could we say that their words are infallible. And if we deify Paul by claiming that his words are infallible, THEN we are (it seems to me) guilty of idolatry (which brings us back to item 1), for we equating a mortal, fallible human being with God.
No, we should not throw out the words of Paul. We should use our God-given rationality to assess and interpret the words of that mortal, fallible man, just we do with any other person.

First off, Leviticus 17-18 clearly states a few of God’s orders to us his servants, his children. The Lord God is THE only way to Heaven, to eternal life, the Episcoal Church should be eradicated, that whole issue in 1976 was pretty studpid, becuase we are all children of God, but they have chosen to disobey God’s word, and by appointing clergy men who are clearly condmening their relationship with God by defiling themselves by being Homosexuals (this also goes for incest, etc.) but still this is so annoyiong, becuase the whole homosexual community makes a big deal out of every little thing from giving blood saying they are being denied equal rights, its not for you, its about someone elses health on the line. You don’t belong in the Christian faith, no matter how you see it, go become A Jew or a Muslim, you DO NOT BELONG in the Christian faith

HfC:
You raised a good point, one which I have wondered about too. If indeed homosexality (or “acting” on it) is so offensive to the Christian God, why wasn’t that brought up either in the 10 Commandments, or made the 11th commandment? Wasn’t it GOD who wrote all that stuff down for folks on those stone tablets? Maybe Moses dropped and broke the tablet with the anti-homosexual rule on it.

Ah, that’s what we need… The anonymous poster at 2:16 p.m., adding his/her little screed to tell everyone else which churches should be eradicated and who should and should not be a Christian.
Often as I encounter it, such arrogance invariably astounds me.

Heretic for Christ, I read your post and had some thoughts that I wanted to add:
1 Dictionary.com refers to idolatry as 1) the religious worship of idols and 2) excessive or blind adoration, reverence, devotion, etc. There are all kinds of non-religious things that people idol: money, power, sex, drugs, etc. Ultimately, idolatry represents anything that is put before/in place of God. Anytime someone places their faith, their worth, their being in something other than how God defines/sees them, then it is idolatry/worship of something other than Him.
2 You seem hung up on just the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are not the only things that god instructed mankind to do/not do. There are references to many other laws, guidelines, etc throughout the scriptures. Leviticus has a litany of laws for God’s people to follow (and I am not just referring to the ones referring to homosexuality).
3 Finally, I think your view on the infallibility of these people who wrote the text of the bible is flawed. While scripture was penned by people, 2 Timothy is clear that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” I do not believe that anyone is saying these people are infallible, but that God breathe these words and they were written down by His people. To use the example of 2+2=7 is not a fair comparison, because there are mathematical laws in play there, just like God’s laws and His ultimate grace, mercy, redemption, and judgment play out as well. To question the infallibility of scripture calls all of scripture into question.
To me it sounds like you are saying that these men could be wrong about what they wrote; that you are trying to justify a change in the Church’s stance on homosexuality or other issues based upon a change in society not fitting what scripture says for the times “back then.”
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. Society may change, but God’s standards do not.
Don’t get me wrong, the Church has done a deplorable job of dealing with the issue of homosexuality. More importantly, the Church has done a horrible job ministering to and loving homosexuals. God loved us enough that WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS HE GAVE HIS ONE AND ONLY SON. He did not wait until we stopped sinning, but loved us all in the midst of our sin. The Church needs to do the same for homosexuals regardless of where they stand. It does not mean standing up and endorsing or accepting the behavior, but it does mean loving someone despite the disagreement over whether it is sin or not.

“sin begets sin” cknuck
and Love begets love.

JohnQ, are you being naive or simply duplicitous? Democratic systems can’t be manipulated?
Conservatives in the denomination certainly were naive, thinking that the liberals would play fair. Louie Crew did a fabulous job of manipulating the system.
The past seven years have been disastrous for the once-Christian denomination. This will only accelerate the demise. The only ones who should be celebrating are people like pagansister who desire the demise of religious organizations which she foolishly believes are the source of all evil.
Turn off the lights if you are the last to leave.

JumpedShip:
I DO NOT believe organized religious organizations are sources of all evil. You’re statement is very, very off the mark and totally untrue.

R Goldberg,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments. In case it is unclear, I am not a Christian and I do not consider the BIble infallible. The statement from Timothy, that all scripture is inspired by God, does not demonstrate infallibility: that may be incorrect or it may mean that fallible people felt inspired to write the texts that eventually were collected to form the Bible.
As for churches, I stopped going decades ago, when I realized that they were not pathways to God but impediments, at least for me. As human-devised organizations, they can set up any rules and policies they wish; my comments are about their attitudes as a reflection of wider-held attitudes within society.
As for the 10 commandments, yes, they are only a tiny portion of the law. But scholarly Jews say that the 613 rules that they are expected to follow are not required of non-Jews, who are expected to follow only the seven Noahide laws (requirement for just laws, and prohibitions against idolatry, murder, theft, blasphemy, eating flesh of a living animal, and sexual immorality). Homosexuality was surely construed as a form of sexual immorality in the Noahide laws, yet it is not mentioned the 10 commandments (which partially overlap the Noahide laws). Why is that? If God intended all scripture to be a guide, why is it not all perfectly consistent? For me, the answer is that the Bible is a diverse set of human writings expressing the notions, fears, and hopes of uncountable people over uncountable ages, all trying to figure out the great questions: Is God real? Who is God? What is God? What does God want and expect? Their answers may be sincere, but sincerity does not guarantee inerrancy.
If the Bible is of human authorship, then approaching it as if it were the infallible and inerrant word of God is, itself, a form of idolatry–bibliolatry. Most Christians seem to consider the Bible as proof that their beliefs are correct. But there is no need for faith when proof exists, and if one’s faith in God depends on what the Bible says, then it is the Bible that is the primary object of faith, with faith in God secondary. Primary faith in the Bible rather than in God is bibliolatry.
Fundamentalists insist that I either accept the Bible entirely or reject it entirely. “You can’t pick and choose,” they say. Of course I can, just as with anything else I read; and what I find wrong does not diminish the value of what I find right, which includes the spiritual teachings of Jesus.
Now, since this is a column about attitudes toward homosexuality, let me conclude with what is, for me, the single most important teaching of Jesus–that the kingdom of God is within us. Note that he did not say, “within heterosexuals but not homosexuals.” He did not even say “within believers but not atheists.” His statement included no limitations or exceptions.

Heretic_for_Christ
First, let me say how nice it is to have a thoughtful debate and discussion with someone on here rather than the back and forth diatribes that seem to be expressed by some on both sides of the debate.
I recognize that you are not a Christian, which obviously starts us out from different perspectives on this. However, I think we can find common ground in some areas.
First, I agree that the Church, or more specifically, people in the Church have been an impediment for many who are seeking God. Christian churches are full of hypocrites, me being one of them, who say they follow God and sin each and every day. We hurt people, expel hate, curse, steal, engage in sexual immorality, lie, cheat, gossip, lust, take God’s name in vain, dishonor our parents, treat others with disdain, get drunk, the list goes on and on and on. Obviously, the degree of these sins varies depending upon the person, how long they have been following Christ, the extent to which they have studied who Christ is and how He loved, the extent of their relationship with Him, etc. However, God’s love and who He is in the midst of that NEVER CHANGES. The church has failed, but God has not.
It is critically important to recognize the difference. Just like with the Jewish leaders of Jesus’ time, people who have power are sometimes afraid to give it up and/or lose it. Unfortunately that is true in the church as well.
As a man who is Jewish by birth and born-again Christian by faith, I have an interesting view on some of what you said. Jewsih scholars may say that the 613 rules/laws are not required by non-Jews, but those statements, in some ways are made out of a position of power and desire to remain “set apart” from non-Jews. God selected the Jewish people as his Chosen People to be set apart. But not set apart to run away from society and hide or sequester from the rest of the world. They/we are set apart to be a beacon of light to demonstrate who God is, His goodness, love, compassion, grace, mercy, strength, justice, truth, desire for relationship, etc. They were set apart to show all of these things for everyone. God’s desire is for all people to be in a relationship with Him. Some choose to have that and some do not.
The laws of God are not meant to be punitive and restrictive to prevent His people from having fun, they are meant to protect his people from that which is harmful to them and to others.
As for faith vs “bibliolatry, I agree with you that worshiping the Bible is not what God intended, nor do I believe that it is what most Christians are doing. The Bible has been God’s way of demonstrating His character. Our faith is still believing in the unseen God. I can sense His Spirit nudging me. I can read His commandments, read what He did, read, what He said, see how He lived, interacted with, reached out to, healed, etc but at the end of the day, I still have to have faith in Him. It comes down to trusting Him with my life, that He will guide me and believing that God has my best interests and His at heart.
Inerrancy of the Bible, yes I do believe that it is inerrant. While it was penned by humans, I believe it was God who inspired them to write the words that they did. I also agree, that ultimately you can not pick and choose what to believe. However, I believe that when someone gives their life to Christ, it is up to Him to be the one to lead you to those truths. When I committed my life to the Lord, He did not immediately tell me all of my sins and every aspect of my life that needed to change. He is gracious and merciful and shows me a bit more each and every day. Do I fail and fall back into patterns of behavior from the past, sometimes. But that does not change the fact that I am in a loving relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. It does not change His character or His love for me. When I come to Him, He forgives me.
Finally, I do agree with you that God did not put exceptions on who He come to Earth to save. The Bible says that God desires that NONE should perish. It does not say only heterosexuals. It does not exclude homosexuals. However, it does have one stipulation. That is that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven. Christ said that “none can come to the Father but through [Him]”.
If you believe in your heart that Christ dies for your sins, came to earth as a baby, is the son of God, born of a virgin, died on a Cross for the sins of the all mankind, was raised form the dead, and is sitting at the right hand of God pleading the case for all who believe, then you are a Christian. That belief is based on faith.
From there on, God will guide you. But He will not force your hand. Relationships are a two way street. God will ALWAYS do his part, but we still have to do ours.

R Goldberg,
This is a good discussion, but highly inappropriate on this news forum. If you wish, we could continue on a discussion board that I started about a year ago. From the Beliefnet home page, go to Discussions, Interfaith Dialogue, and a thread entitled “God–Within Us or Outside?” which I see now is toward the bottom of the first page of threads on that board. I invite you to read through the postings that are already there from last year; if you wish to continue our dialogue, that might be an appropriate forum. If not, peace to you.
Heretic

“First off, Leviticus 17-18 clearly states a few of God’s orders to us his servants, his children. “
Yeah, like that putting disobedient children to death. Sooo many ‘Christians’ follow that one.
Or, like putting the victims of incest to death (since you brought incest into the discussion) – do you follow that one?
Or denying communion to the disabled. ALL ‘Christian’ churches follow that advice, right?
Or like eating shrimp is an ABOMINATION. Is it in YOUR denomination?
Okay, so most Christians accept that we are no longer under Levitical laws (yet somehow they keep repeating it ad nauseam). That leaves us with Paul, who was okay with slavery and thought women should shut the he11 up. Kinda flawed for a ‘Christian’ leader, imo.
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Heretic…I will try and read the posts on the other site you mentioned, but will continue to have this kind of discussion and debate within the realms of these posts. This is a completely appropriate place to have dialogue on spiritual matter since the results of our spritual condition are these decisions that we are dicussing.