I agree with the goal of this initiative, but I don’t see why it needs to be presented in theological terms. The message “no sex outside of marriage” has NEVER been successful, no matter what kinds of theological threats are made about God’s wrath and hellfire. Yet young people DO want and need direction. Religion may be the way for some, but it is clearly not the way for a lot of others. A non-theological approach could be at least as successful.

I think the whole idea of sex, as taught and believed, by the NAE is fine, if they want to teach ‘their’ followers this belief. Otherwise, if it’s intended to be a ‘teaching’ technique that they want to teach the public, then no. Whether or not a person is cohabiting or having sex outside of marriage, is not their business. They only have the right to say what about sex to those in their church.
As far as abortion, I do not seeing this making much head way as one group wants to stop it or at least make it as hard as possible to get and the other group, which I belong, believe that it is the woman’s right to choose and is nobodies business. We’ll have to see what happens and then decide from there.

It will take more than teaching children, teenagers, grown-ups about how to handle sexual matters. They’ll have to start with teaching each other about respect for humans of all kinds, shapes and sizes. How to speak without using four letter words, how to dress without looking like hookers and male bums. If you become successful with these preliminaries maybe you could reach them with how to handle sexual conduct. But I wouldn’t count on it.

“Sex is a responsible act only in a relationship in which the couple is willing to care for any children that can come from that union,”
Certainly unprotected sex is, whether the couple is single or married. And I would amend “willing” to “willing and able”.
If they are serious one of the first things they must do is support real birth control – both the education and the availability. If they don’t do that they aren’t serious.

So much mis-information floating around American cannot help but raise up generations of perverts.

I don’t think mis-information we meet occasionally is usually the cause of perversion. I think it often comes from being raised by a pervert or, apparently, being subjected to one like, say, in church.
Every parent has a duty to protect his or her children from being a victim of perversion, whether it’s done by a relative (even the other parent) or a clergy person or a teacher or whomever.

nnmns,
Correct. Perversion comes not from ignorance or misinformation but from some innate psychiatric disturbance OR from some destructive indoctrination of a child or a weak-minded adult.

I was just telling a friend today about how the human race is about as immature as ever but at the same time technologically more advanced then ever. H and nnmns if you think that in this day and age a child has to come directly in contact with a pervert to be influenced by perversion then I would say you both are short-sighted.
nnmns I know you desire to point at churches for blame whenever you can get a chance but the real truth of the matter is wherever kids go or gather is seen as opportunity for perverts. Kids have long ranges in their traveling these days one of the places they do this is the internet another is TV.

Good idea, as long as they teach it to their own church members. Certainly sex education is important…and they will certainly use their slant (no sex before marriage, abstinance etc.) but hopefully they may be realistic enough to present birth control, STD prevention (condoms) etc. too.

Also, hopefully they won’t tell the members who accidently get pregnant that if they choose not to carry to term….they’ll go to hell. I would hope that they could present alternatives to an abortion. If in the end a woman chooses to terminate, I would hope she would be supported….doubtful in my opinion, however.

ck you were the one who claimed mis-information floating around would cause perverts. Now you’re changing the subject.
And are we really to believe all that perversion in the RCC, some of it for extended time, hasn’t caused some of those kids to become perverts?

nnmns WRONG! You must be seeing things not only am I not denying what I said about misinformation but I gave references for support. As for the RCC that is a very small proportion of perversion in the US and abroad.

“References”, cknuck. Where above did you give “references”?

Pushing abstinence-only education is a dream, and these people are in a coma.
From the Journal of Adolescent Health:
After the Promise: the STD Consequences of Adolescent Virginity Pledges (http://www.scribd.com/doc/14850672/After-the-Promise-the-STD-Consequences-of-Adolescent-Virginity-Pledges)
Published as a joint study between the Yale University and Columbia University.
Summary: after years of tracking a wide group of volunteers through periodic questionnaires and urine samples (half of whom pledged and half of whom did not), it was determined that both groups contracted STDs in closely the same proportion.
That’s to say nothing about pregnancies.
RE: abortion specifically
This also says nothing about rape and incest and emergency termination (for the sake of the woman having cancer treatments, for example).
Not that these so-called evangelicals give a flying fig about any of that.
I believe abortion gets so much fame within the Evangelical movement because it is one of those “other people” issues. Do these people get all bent out of shape about adultery? Jesus admonishes it several times, and the OT commands adulterers to be killed. So where are the voter driven initiatives to ban adultery or to create criminal charges against these people? There are none.
Why?
The answer, of course, is because some of these people are guilty of adultery. Not all, of course, but I’m sure more than a few. Or they might know somebody who is, or even be related to one. So it isn’t an “other persons” issue — it strikes close to home.
It is far easier to get worked up about issues that you can hold at arm’s length and feel wonderfully self-righteous about.
Personally, I just think they are pathetic.
PS: how many of these people vehemently denounce government-supported healthcare and/or social services? They will go to war to make sure a traumatized 12 year old incest rape victim gives birth, but they will be damned if they support somebody who is already here. lol

(Sex:)
The most fun that you can have without laughing in or out of marriage.
The good lord blessed humanity with a life time of good healthy sex and decreed that what ever sex that man fails to use will be fed to the worms.

NightLad, welcome back! Long time no see.

What about those people who are not legally allowed to marry the person they love? Marriage is simply not the answer. My husband and I married LONG before we were ever able to support a child. Some people aren’t allowed to marry. Abstinence is completely unrealistic, within or outside of marriage.
And if you want to reduce abortion rates, you MUST be willing and able to change women’s situations and lives beyond their spiritual status. Abortions occur because women know whether or not they can possibly afford to maintain a pregnancy and parent. If they can, they generally do. If they cannot, they generally choose to have an abortion (rarely they choose adoption). If you want an abortion minded woman to make a different choice, you gave to change the circumstances pushing her to that decision and give her true, often lasting, help. She needs stable housing, either a referral or an actual place to stay while she gets on her feet. She needs a steady income and supplemental support, including GED programs (free), instructions on how to begin a trade or college program, and/or interviewing skills, interview referrals, job placements, and jobs. She needs healthcare for herself as well as her other children and it must be affordable to access. She needs childcare service, again affordable. Sheneeds transportation, reliable and affordable. And she needs nutritious food for herself and her children, food stamps, wic, food pantry referrals, and supplemental services.
Only when those needs are met AND You have demonstrated that they will continue to be met (for enough time for her to truly get on her feet; 2, 4, or more years of continuous service), do you have any real hope of swaying her decision.
A couple of onesies, a canister of formula, a package of diapers, and a prayer simply is not enough.

It’s about time evangelicals and the church began affirming God’s gift of sexuality. They’ve studied it and declared it “good,” in 24 pages, no less! I’m sincerely glad they’re on a more positive track. It seems, however, that there is still an ulterior motive: to prevent abortions. Is this the only thing that matters? I appreciate NightLad’s references to the futililty of abstinence-only pledges. I agree. They miss the boat, and it’s full of holes anyway.
If they want to present a positive view of the sacrament of sex, they’d do well to look at Pope John Paul’s Theology of the Body. He was ahead of his time, tuned in even then to the high value God puts on our very human bodies and on sex as a symbol of oneness in relationship, as God designed it.
We desperately need voices, in the church and without, who are willing to affirm the sacredness (and fun) of sex and desire as part of a committed relationship. But it needs to become a thread woven into our theology from childhood on, rather than a message used to lasso youth groups once their hormones threaten to erupt. The more we speak up about the importance of our bodies in every aspect of what it means to be human, the healthier the church… the body… will become.

NightLad, I have to agree with you, abstinence-only pledges are incomplete, and are not being adhered to when made. You mentioned churches not making a big deal out of adultery, this may be true in some cases but not in all. One thing that is silencing churches on many fronts is the government. Say what you will, say I’m not speaking the truth, or that could never happen, but it is happening and will happen even more in the future. Churches that speak out against adultery, against homosexuality, against lesbianism, bi-sexuality and many other sins are being threatened, having their pastors arrested, and in some cases having their doors closed by the government, YES, in the United States. As for adultery, every man and woman has committed adultery according to the Bible. What did I just say, yes, it’s true. God’s word says if you look on a man or woman with lust in your heart, you are guilty of adultery. Raise your hand if you aren’t guilty. Mine is down too.
Jenna, these programs already exist. Not only do they exist within the community structure; i.e. Social Services and Welfare, but they exist in many churches. I know for a fact that the Southern Baptist Organization and the Church of God based in Cleveland Tn. have homes for unwed mothers. Those homes aren’t going to allow a woman to stay for as long as they feel they need to stay, they will help them train for employment, get their GED, and learn to manage their money all while having parenting classes so they can get on their feet. They can’t allow women to stay, and stay, and stay because there is a constant flow of new women coming into the program. Wonder why that happens? Oh, that’s right NightLad, it’s because churches in the U.S. are being told that they can’t speak against abortion from the pulpit. Who would dare to tell them something like that? Good old Uncle Sam. Anyway Jenna, these programs only serve to create more dependence than independence. That’s why women never get out of the system within the confines of the Welfare program.
Leslea, You almost hit the nail on the head. Not in a “committed relationship,” but in a committed marriage.
God gave us sex Ray, but Wrong answer! God gave us sex to enjoy in the bonds of marriage, not just because we decide we want to have sex.
The truth of the matter is that churches are being silenced in the United States because the government wants to be God. The more churches are silenced, the lower the moral values of people become, and thus, the lower the moral values of our country become. Hope this helps clear up the issues.

To fight for our inability to control our sexual appetites, efforts to just write abstinence off as unobtainable for human beings is a pitiful position to take. So we won’t have discipline concerning sex and neither will we advise our kids to have any, other than use a condom, birth control and when that fails kill. Nice!

“Churches that speak out against adultery, against homosexuality, against lesbianism, bi-sexuality and many other sins are being threatened, having their pastors arrested, and in some cases having their doors closed by the government, YES, in the United States.”
Let’s have some documentation for a claim like that Bob. What church, where and when, has been closed by the US government for preaching against adultery? Against lesbianism? Against bi-sexuality? I think you are prone to believing some very inaccurate sources, but when you quote from them you need to verify them first.
Show us you are not, in fact, full of s**t.

cknuck why not declare that breaking a speed limit, any speed limit, is cause for several years in jail? Think of the lives that would save if no one sped! And to claim always obeying speed limits is unobtainable for human beings is a pitiful position to take. So let’s have discipline concerning driving and never allow anyone to err.
Oh, and while we’re doing that why not make divorce illegal? And being overweight? Think of the lives having no-one overweight would save!
Surely since you are for discipline you are for those disciplines, too. Eh?

No program will eliminate foolishness from human behavior. The point is to reduce the frequency and severity of foolishness.
Perhaps programs that encourage abstinence by focusing on practical factual matters would be more effective than programs that mandate abstinence-only by focusing on religious notions about sin.

nnmns you lost me

H4C most of the Christian reasons for abstinence is found to have practical factual backing them up. Reasons not to abstain are foolish reasons the model addictive elements, like short term pleasure for long term pain. One does not have to be Christian to desire to abstain one element they might want to explore is giving their best to their perspective partner and not the leftovers of a parade of jerks.

Good seeing your post, Nightlad. It has been a while!

Let me try again cknuck. Most of the reasons abstinence so often fails involve hormones. Remember those? Well in the struggle between doing what’s right and doing what nature urges young humans to do, nature sometimes wins. It just works out that way. But if the young people are educated and prepared they have a fall-back; good contraception. Some of which can also prevent diseases. Far better to have two strikes than one.

cknuck,
You wrote, “Most of the Christian reasons for abstinence [have facts backing them up].”
Actually, no. There are sound reasons for abstinence, but they have nothing to do with Christianity. And there are Christian reasons for abstinence, but they have to do with notions about sin, not factual evidence.

PS to previous:
Perhaps it would be better to say that the Christian reasons for abstinence do not clash with the evidence-based reasons.

let me draw you a picture nnmns: recently there was a marriage between to employees they had never even kissed, both were virgins they are having the best life. Also there is a couple who plan to marry they are not virgins but they also have not kissed or fooled around. Their process is taking a lot longer because of mistakes of their past. But being pure has enhanced their relationship incredible. When hormones dictate human behavior the outcome is not a good outcome more times than not. Parents can teach their children disciplines that will improve their lives and increase their likelihood of successful relationships.

Sorry H you are wrong, there are thousands of bible studies that support abstinence and is benefits, from Genesis, to the letters Jesus quote very clear instructions concerning abstinence and it’s benefits for marriage. Way too much to explain to you here but it’s there.

Your pictures are very fuzzy cknuck. Why do I think you’d tell me these things (and perhaps they tell them to you) no matter what the real situation is.
And I didn’t say hormones lead to a good outcome. I said sometimes they lead. It is foolish to deny that and to not prepare for that possibility.

Thank you, cknuck. Yes, I have read and studied the Bible, and I know what it says on the topic. However, while you regard what the Bible says as factual evidence, I do not. Evidence on this topic would be hard data on rates of sexually transmitted disease and its sequelae, unwanted pregnancy, abortion, school drop-out rates, limited job opportunities, poverty, etc — all these things can be documented as negative consequences of mindless and careless sex. Evidence would also include testimony of emotional wreckage from mindless sexual adventurism even if people use effective contraception and prophylaxis to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STDs.
What the Bible says may be consistent with all this, but the Bible is not evidence except to those who define it as the authoritative word of God.
What counts is making a difference. So if citing the Bible works, fine; but for those who don’t respond to Biblical exhortations and especially to those who sneer at religion, the hard data and personal testimony may be the most effective approach.

I think even for the most earnest young believers sometimes hormones win. They, too, need a backup.

Yes, nnmns, “earnest young believers” most certainly have the hormones. My nephew, married his wife after knowing her for less than 6 months, because she was pregnant. Leave from the Army, graduated West Point, raised in a very, very Christian home complete with no sex until marriage training…guess what…hormones won. So cknuck, no matter how Christian (and believe me, my sister’s kids were raised very religiously) babies happen. They are still married, but I can guarantee he would still be single if the pregnancy hadn’t happened. The only reason for the marriage…OOPS! He left for Iraq before the baby was born, and was discharged a year later. Will they stay married….who knows? 5 years in and a planned 2nd child born in Feb. Pregnancy is not a good reason for marriage.

H4C quote, “What the Bible says may be consistent with all this, but the Bible is not evidence except to those who define it as the authoritative word of God.”
No argument there H, except maybe more people should accept the bible as the authoritative word of God, it does have a better rep then most spokespersons.
nnmns quote, “I think even for the most earnest young believers sometimes hormones win. They, too, need a backup.”
Did you read my statement? I’m not arguing that its similar to what I said.
pagan quote, “Will they stay married….who knows?”
I don’t even know them but I think their union is a little more than a crap-shoot. Anyway I will keep them in prayer.

Thanks cknuck. They can use anything right now, including prayers. Yes, I’m serious.

Very great writing! Really!

mgz8m
http://002evolves.blogspot.com