It was time in Anglican history for a Priest like Jefferts Shori to lead away from imperialism in the Episcopal Church.

Weren’t the Anglican’s an off shoot of the RCC? Henry 8 decided he didn’t need the Pope telling him what to do. Perhaps some of the Episcopals want to return to the days of a single leader…like Benny, giving out rules from on high. Let Williams run his group on the other side of the pond, and the US folks run their side.

Good for her for sticking up for the traditions of the church .

I love the bait and switch tactics of Schori using buzz phrases like “established hierarchy, “spiritual violence” and “cultural excesses”. The fact is she and her followers have chosen to reject the bible and make it up as they go and call it Christian. Liar Liar. The bible is the unification of all Christians without it there is no Christians for without a plumbline a wall is bows and bends to the frailty of its human creators.

“The fact that she and her followers have chosen to reject the bible and make it up as they go and call it Christian.” cknuck
The fact that there are many, many ways to interpret that bible is the reason there are so many different Christian denominations. ” The unification of all Christians….. ” Obviously not.
Some Christians choose to love all their divine beings creations…some choose to reject those who happen to love a person of the same gender in a physical way as well as emotional. (I know cknuck, love the person, hate the “act”.)
There is absolutely no reason why a person who happens to be homosexual can’t run a church. A persons sexual orientation has nothing to so with the ability or lack of ability to run a business, church or anything else for that matter.

They can run a church but not a church built on biblical standards or following the teachings of Christ.

As per your interpretation.

nnmns the bible is clear and needs no interpretation, there is some revelation to individuals through the Holy Spirit, its God’s word not mine. But you wouldn’t know that even though you can read Jesus’ words on marriage and sexuality.

About 18 centuries ago, Galen the physician lived. For much of the ensuing history, Galen’s word was law in medicine. If Galen said it, it was correct; whatever conflicted with Galen’s teachings was wrong. Medicine had its plumbline, its anchor, its rock, its unwavering standard of truth.
But over more recent centuries, medical researchers began questioning Galen’s teachings–because some of them just seemed wrong. And since then, medicine has changed its views constantly; what seemed correct yesterday was shown to be wrong today; what we dismiss today may prove to be correct tomorrow. Scientists are always learning, adding to our knowledge and understanding, refining or even replacing previously held views.
What shall we say of this?
1. “Scientific knowledge must grow, even if it means questioning an authority whose word was once considered absolute truth.”
2. “Science is always changing its mind, but Galen’s word is constant and unchanging. We should stick with what is constant and unchanging.”
Oh, that’s not fair? Because Galen was just a human being, but the Bible is the word of God? But that is a FAITH-BASED ASSUMPTION. Once that ASSUMPTION is made, everything else is PROVEN, for the words are right there in the infallible text of the Bible.
This is what all these arguments always come down to: primary faith in the Bible.
The Bible has much truth in it; so do Galen’s teachings. But neither set of ancient writings is divine or infallible. Both MUST be questioned; and for both, what is true can withstand any questioning, and what is false must be recognized as such.

cknuck, if the bible needs no interpertation, then why are there so many interpretations of it,all usually claiming their’s is the “right one”? How come there are so many different denominations, all claiming to be Christian. Yes, fortunately there are different ways to read and understand that book, because if every Christian read it as “literal” there would be a “hell” to pay!

Exactly so, ps.
And while no doubt the Bible has some truth in it, there’s also a lot of error and a lot of purported history that can’t be checked so I’d have to wonder why it would be worth it to try to filter out the truth in the Bible from all the rest of the stuff in there.

I agree, nnmns. Filtering out all the stuff, real or imagined, in the bible would be…impossible. Some good stories, however, though not true make interesting reading.

Excellent examples TEC should follow the bible of nnmns, pagan, and H4C for they are in line with their teachings much more than biblical teachings of Jesus

Maybe churches should not pay so much attention to sacred scripture at all. Read it, learn from it, to be sure, but don’t make it the hinge on which everything turns. Living God is within us and among us, not in a set of ancient words.
But IF a Christian church must have a Bible, then it is indeed worth looking at the words attributed to Jesus. There is the spiritual Jesus as seen, for example, in the Beatitudes… and then there is the doctrinal Jesus as seen in passages such as John 14:6. Doctrinal religion focuses on doctrinal passages; churches less obsessed with moribund doctrine and more with living spirituality pay more attention to the spiritual teachings.
It is entirely to be expected that those who are obsessed with doctrine and dogma will yell “Non-Christian!” at those who pay more attention to the non-doctrinal passages. This is exactly why I have written that religion builds walls between people based on the content of their belief whereas spirituality breaks down walls.

cknuck…Thanks for the honor.

H, part of Jesus? And you get to pick what parts right? God is inside of everybody right? And of course these personal gods will not cause as much division as the bible. But according to you these personal gods should not be based on the biblical principles ro “ancient words” maybe modern words?

Astoundingly we don’t have any news articles about gays right now (I presume B’net counts the posts and decides those articles drive traffic to it more than any other, even though they are often not news-worthy).
Anyway this seems to be the most appropriate place to sneak in a link to Charles Blow’s column in the NYT about the poll that showed the public is becoming more accepting of homosexuality.
Among the theories as to why that may be happening I was especially interested in this one

Virulent homophobes are increasingly being exposed for engaging in homosexuality. Think Ted Haggard, the once fervent antigay preacher and former leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, and his male prostitute. (This week, Haggard announced that he was starting a new “inclusive” church open to “gay, straight, bi, tall, short,” but no same-sex marriages. Not “God’s ideal.” Sorry.) Or George Rekers, the founding member of the Family Research Council, and his rent boy/luggage handler. Last week, the council claimed that repealing “don’t ask, don’t tell” would lead to an explosion of “homosexual assaults” in which sleeping soldiers would be the victims of fondling and fellatio by gay predators. In fact, there is a growing body of research that supports the notion that homophobia in some men could be a reaction to their own homosexual impulses. Many heterosexual men see this, and they don’t want to be associated with it. It’s like being antigay is becoming the old gay. Not cool.

Not to say “I told you so.” of course, but I’ve mentioned that. It makes sense to me.

We were members of the Episcopal Church in CA for eight yrs. Went through classes, etc. They follow the Bible Ck, they just don’t believe in the fundamentalist interpretation of it. Couldn’t find another Episcopal Church where we live now that we could be comfortable in, unfortunately.

cknuck,
I can’t speak for what other people SHOULD believe. I speak to what I believe–not based on the notion that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but on my direct experience of God. You sneer at my experience and place your trust in a book. Hey, it’s okay with me. But I’ll continue to offer my views about and my experience of God, fearlessly facing your disdain.

H22 anybody can say that without being a Christian because they put more weight in themselves then God.
H4C I fail to see how someone can infer a belief without expressing any experience with God. Most of what you relay to me is from you, that is why when I think of your experience with your God is that it is you and you alone.

cknuck: Most of what you relay to me is from you, that is why when I think of your experience with your God is that it is you and you alone”. addressed to H4C
How would you know what H4C’s experience with God is? No one has the same experiences with their Divine Being….no one preceives a God or Goddess in the same way…individuals are not alike thus no 2 experiences with anything in life are the same.

The question of experience of God is interesting, because a lot of Christians I have met and spoken with seem incapable of saying anything about God that reflects a direct experience; mostly, these people (not saying all Christians, but many that I have met) just quote the Bible at me. That never struck me as descriptive of direct experience, but merely as the ability to memorize text and then recite it. One exception was a Christian who told me that because I am not a Christian, I cannot possibly experience God, and that was a shame, because, in his words, “God is exceptionally charming.”
Charming, forsooth.

Pagan quote, “How would you know what H4C’s experience with God is? No one has the same experiences with their Divine Being….no one preceives a God or Goddess in the same way…individuals are not alike thus no 2 experiences with anything in life are the same.”
First I know and comment on what H has presented on post.
Second part of your statement is so ridiculously wrong, first how do you know “no one has the same experience,” it is impossible to know so it is obviously propaganda or a out and out agenda based lie. “No one perceives a God ,,,in the same way” again how on earth did you gather that information you could not possibly know that and there is very much evidence to the contrary whole denominations of evidence. Here is another bit of nonsense “individuals are not alike thus no 2 experiences with anything in life are the same.” People comment on having the same experiences all of the time there are whole fellowship medians full of shared experiences. Write a book about a new and totally original experience and you would be rich, the bible goes as far to say “there is nothing new under the sun.” Much of H4C, nnmns, H4C and others information is misinformation and suspect the agenda is to confuse new believers and stop people from believing in the bible and God both filled with much more truth then all of you put together.

H4C you need to expand your poll it is based on shortsighted slanted prejudice opinion of a single man in all of his limited knowledge. I am wondering why are all of these “Christians” so anxious share personal information to one so obviously and irreversibly against their beliefs.

@cknuck “Jesus’ words on marriage and sexuality”
Could you please share some scripture references? The only ones I seem to recall are where Jesus talks about abandoning your family when you follow him.

cknuck you seem to be claiming everyone in a denomination has the same view of their god. On the large scale that’s probably often true but if you look closely, even say at a man and wife, you’ll find they do have differences of opinion about what their god wants. Generally small ones I expect, but differences.
And since you seem to be agreeing different denominations have different views you are agreeing with the obvious, that believers have different takes on their god (or, more logically, gods). Which is one of the points I make over and over.
As for your “It is impossible to know so it is obviously propaganda or a out and out agenda based lie.”, that’s really strange coming from you. You are probably the most agenda-driven one of the regulars here. It’s just that you don’t notice your agendas because they, like your god, are your inventions.

Well, let’s see cknuck…apparently you know everything and no one eise does when it comes to those God like experiences. If all Christians had the same exact experience…why are there Methodists, Catholics, Baptists (southern and northern), Presbyterians, etc. ect. etc.? Even those in each demomination will probably give you a different version of what they call experience. Of course they may have a preacher that tells them just what they should be experienceing if they are truly “Christian”. It is obvious that they don’t, but thought I’d ask you since you are the Christian expert here.
Have you ever noticed when several people witness an event, either good or bad…no 2 people will discribe it the same way? Probably not.
How do I “gather” my information? Same way you do…it’s called life experience.
So “ridiculous” or not, I stick with no 2 human being experience anything exactly the same way…so : have a nice day or night or whenever you read this.

cknuck,
To me, the most noteworthy aspect of this dialogue is that you are so ready to accuse me and other non-Christians of having a sinister agenda– to confuse believers, to eradicate religion from America, to lie, to deceive, to try to hide biblical truth, etc.
Is it really impossible for you to believe that people can have views different from yours, and to express those views by challenging yours — and that there is no cynical, sinister motive?
And regardless of motives, if biblical truth is so powerful and obvious, why would you care if a few people doubt it? After all, if someone came along and proclaimed that the law of gravity is a fraud because the entire notion of gravity is impossible, do you think anyone would respond with the kind of anger that you show when I say that certain things in Christian doctrine are self-contradictory and therefore impossible?

KS are you kidding? Read more!

Fascinating that a leadership protesting colonial bonds on the right hand pursues the subjugation of local leadership on the largest indian reservation in the U.S. and is forcing a former episcopal leader who champions indigenous recognition to resign his orders on the left hand.

Gd it sounds like an interesting story. Do you have a link to it?

I guess not.

Check out this news and opinion

My understanding was that funding was subsequently withheld until the council agreed to her (PB J-S) nominee to replace MacDonald. I dunno, but there seems to be plenty of non-spiritual stuff at play, nevermind theology, gay issues aside. Sad, but it is always thus when church institutions try to control the Spirit, both global and local.