We have freedom of religion in this country. President Obama and his family has freedom of religion, as well as all of us who live in America. Because our President doesn’t end all his good news with the words, “Praise God”, as the fundamentalist far right conservatives do he is suspected of heresy and not being a true Christian. I read on a leading online news that maybe He should be doing more to prove he is a Christian. Unbelievable, this is political rhetoric, leave Obama and his family alone to put this nation back together and be the leader we voted for. This is not a theocracy, it is a democracy and it is going to stay just that.

A person’s relationship with their god is really not anyone’s business, even if that person is the elected leader of a secular country, including this country. IF President Obama was a Muslim, so what? However I believe he is a Christian as he says. The fact that he and his family don’t run about expressing their faith in public is fine, it is private for them. One in 4 believing he is a Muslim means that for every 1 that thinks he isn’t a Christian, 3 think he is. )

“it’s important for people of all parties to be responsible about telling the truth.”
You can’t count on a Democrat officeholder to do it but you can pretty well count on a Republican to lie except in the rare occasion the truth would serve him better.
And let’s face it, if keeping still will propagate a falsehood that serves them, very few politicians will talk truth.
Fox News has mislead a world of foolish Americans.

“Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen”: “Where they burn books, they will also ultimately burn people.” — Heinrich Heine

It really does not matter to me if Pres Obama is Muslim, Christian, Jewish, pagan, or atheist. But apparently, it does to a great deal of other Americans. How unfortunate!

Essentially, you have in this case, stupidity, ignorance, or those who so disparately want to believe in something in order to justify their hatred and or prejudice regarding President Obama.

I personally do not believe Obama has any religious commitment but I do think he is brown nosing Muslims for some purpose or another and that the fact that he is in office will give a strong foothold for Muslims. We might soon find ourselves in the same dilemma as France

“brown nosing Muslims”? You mean showing them normal respect? Perhaps because the Islamic world is important in our foreign policy?
I can conceive we would one day decades off have the same problem as France but first there’s the Hispanic problem. Oh, and anglos have really screwed this country up too; they elected “W”, arguably the worst president ever.

If there is another group that has elements that wish to eliminate us totally sure they are a problem but I can’t think of another group that is willing to go to the extremes as some Muslims. Can you? Some liberals have their heads so far up a “dark hole” they can’t see in the light of day.

Obama has continually sang the praises of Muslims with the claims of their tremendous contributions to the making of this country, not so with Christians. As a matter of fact the majority of his actions toward Christians has been punitive and restrictive. He wen to the Muslim’s Nation Day of Prayer while shunning the Christian National Day of Prayer. On several occasions he made it a point (for the benefit of Muslims and Muslim countries) made it clear he stood on the decision that America is not a Christian country making that statement in such a way that the statement in itself denied Christian contributions to this great nation when our first president was a Christian and Christians paved the road to freedom of religion not imagining that from the White House this fact would be denied by a presiding president.

cknuck: Christians of any stripe do NOT have any special claim to favortism by the U.S. government. The United States is NOT a Christian country in any sense and Christianity is NOT the favored religion with special privilages above other religions. The United States is a SECULAR Republic. Contributions to the United States have been made by people of all religions and no religion, by believers in a deity and those who do not believe in any deity. George Washington was not a Christian but a deist and Unitarian. He never took communion in a Christian church.
George Washington occupied the rank of Grand Master in the Masonic lodge. Each promotion in the Masonic lodge requires taking an anti-Christian oath?
In the 1790s, in the waters off Tripoli, pirates were making sport of American shipping near the Barbary Coast. Toward the end of his second term, Washington sent Joel Barlow, the diplomat-poet, to Tripoli to settle matters, and the resulting treaty, finished after Washington left office, bought a few years of peace. Article 11 of this long-ago document says that “as the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,” there should be no cause for conflict over differences of “religious opinion” between countries.

Rob the Rev people like you whose agenda is puffed by promoting misinformation are the worse.
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.”
–George Washington in a speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779
“It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
The congress printed the bible and put it in all schools as curriculum. Liars count on the uninformed, I’m not the uninformed RtR

“The congress printed the bible and put it in all schools as curriculum.”
I’ve previously asked you for documentation on this and never gotten it so far. Will you point it out now?
And I believe RtR is better informed than you are.

Did George Washington write:
”What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ”
on 12 May 1779 (or at any point in his life)?
No. This is another instance of a fake quotation being framed around a genuine kernel—in this case the words given in blue above
SEE REMAINDER OF ESSAY AT: Fake Quotations: Washington and American Schools Posted by sbh on Friday, 2 April 2010
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2010/04/02/fake-quotations-washington-and-american-schools/

Did George Washington say
“It is impossible to govern the world without God and the Bible.
in his farewell speech of 1796?”
No. Not then or any other known time.
This particular version is relatively modern. The statement appears to go back (through several permutations) to a claim made by an 1835 biographer on unknown authority. Supposedly George Washington said to a gentleman skeptical of the existence of a Supreme Being:
SEE THE REMAINDER OF THE ESSAY AT: Fake Quotations: Washington and Governing without God Posted by sbh on Friday, 3 July 2009
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/07/03/fake-quotations-washington-and-governing-without-god/

Did the United States Congress pass this resolution
The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.
in 1782?
No. Not in 1782 or any other year.
On this one there’s no real story behind it all, no misunderstanding to clear up—it’s a fake pure and simple. And it’s the sort of fake that shouldn”t deceive anybody who has the slightest understanding of American history.
READ THE REMAINDER OF THIS ESSAY AT: Dubious Documents: The Case of the Bible of the Revolution (sbh)Fake Quotations: Congress on School Bibles Posted by sbh on Monday, 15 June 2009
http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/fake-quotations-congress-on-school-bibles/

Keith Olbermann on his MSNBC Countdown program had two segments tonight that certainly zeroed in on this question.
Extreme views: CNN books Franklin Graham
Author Michael Eric Dyson addresses the almost trusted network’s decision to turn a man who was disinvited from the Pentagon’s National Day of Prayer to analyze the public’s reaction to the latest polls on the president’s religious background.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/38793108#38793108
Secret Muslim? A look into Obama’s past
In response to Franklin Graham’s uncertainty, a special Countdown investigation reveals not only the proof of the presidents true religion, but the long-term plan to conceal that faith, a plan he first put in motion when he was just 2-years-old.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/vp/38793172#38793172

the fake site is fake and the author admits he did not research the origin of the statements. On the other hand there is proof that he did take communion and was devote from his granddaughter Nelly. I know plenty of masons that are devote Christians and would take exception to your accusations.

cknuck I’ve read your stuff for a few years now, and based on your history I’ll take RtR’s research over yours in a minute.

cknuck: You are an ignorant fundi liar and fake who passes on lies and fake “historical” quotes you read in fundi reinvented fraudulent “history” books written by fundi authors to your ignorant, miseducated, fundi sheeple. You are blind leading the blind. Here’s a book that exposes your lies and fraud.
Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right’s Alternate Version of American History Vol. 1 by Chris Rodda

nnmns there is no surprise about that it is very important to people like you and rtr that America be stripped of it’s Christian heritage.
RtR you will promote any literature that extracts Christ’s role in the building of America. to the less than knowledgeable you are a deceiver busy at deceiving calling yourself a Rev is important to you in that you hope it will add validity to your nonsense.

cknuck – I have no interest in stripping America of its authentic American heritage of freedom of religion with the separation of church and state, respect and equality of both those who believe in some deity and those who do not, of those true Christians who work and fight for justice for all people regardless of race, creed, age, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or physical or mental impairment. I am also for putting it into its proper perspective of the United States which was established as a secular, constitutional republic that favors no one relgion or belief system over another.
I do have an interest in exposing the false Christianity that promoted and supported a belief in white superiority; an arrogance about their supposed “spirituality,” genocide of the native American nations and the stealing of their land and resources; slavery of the African Americans; subjugation and inequality of women; persecution of those of a different sexual orientation; the promotion of greed and avarice as Christian virtues; the rape of the earth; etc. etc. etc.
BTW I graduated with an M-Div from an accredited Lutheran seminary, am ordained and have the right to the title Reverend, and have 30 years of pastoral experience gained in three congregations. What do you have?

President Obama is as much a Muslim as Palin is a Lesbian Liberal Treehugger. Last time I checked, the Constitution said nothing about a President’s religious orientation as a qualification for office. Yes, he took an oath that included the word “God” – yet the word is merely a title and not a proper name. Until the oath of office is changed to say, “so help me Yaweh” the whole argument is a ridiculous exercise in ignorance.

What makes the argument valid is the tactics practiced to get into office. Most politicians will say and do anything to get into office Obama is no different. Once in office the deceptions become apparent. Obama courted the Christian vote, then he did everything he possibly could to neuter Christianity and promote Islam.

“then he did everything he possibly could to neuter Christianity and promote Islam”
That’s just nuts. In the first (of many) place, how better could you lose a re-election in the US?

A quote from Article XI of the Treaty of Tripoli, negotiated with a Muslim nation by the George Washington Administration and passed by the United States Senate in 1797.
“THE UNITED STATES IS IN NO SENSE FOUNDED UPON THE CHRISTAIN DOCTRINE.”

President Obama practised tactics to get into office, and that those tactics prove he isn’t Christian? What tactics? Everyone courts the Christian vote, Bush did too, Reagan also, and on and on. You don’t have to agree with him or like him there are enough of us who do who will vote him in again.

YN to base your conclusion on a treaty that Jefferson broke is a desperate and silly move politicians have said many things more older documents say this nation is guided by faith in Christ and the teachings of Jesus than there are not.

Really funny how some continue to think that this nation is a “Christian” nation, when there is a wonderful assortment of faiths/religions in this country. Those of many faiths/religions started this country. Sure Christians, just like other faiths, have contributed to the success of this country. The fact that some believe the nonsense that President Obama isn’t a Christian is truly proof that some folks will believe anything. I would have voted for him if he worshiped purple people eaters! This country doesn’t have a religious requirement to be President, unlike some countries. That is another one of many reasons we,the USA, attract so many folks from other places. What difference does it make who/what President Obama worships? It is his business, and has nothing to do with his difficult job.

He says is is not. So why does it matter ? America a Christian nation ? Thats not so . In fact the Constitution protects all relgions or none if that be your ptrference. So evryone drop this as an issue.

It’s important for many that they convince Americans that the founders were not Christian but the facts are:
Religious Affiliation of signers
signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
Congregationalist 13 23.2%
Presbyterian 12 21.4%
Quaker 2 3.6%
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
Catholic 1 1.8%
TOTAL 56 100%

cknuck: You are just playing statistical games. Affliation to a denomination does not necessarily equal Christian. Many of those who signed the Declaration of Independence where deists. I pastored three congregations and knew official members who did no believe in the “orthodoxy” of the denomination.
You are so desparate to prove your point that you, a fundi, Bible-believing, born-again, washed in the blood, sanctified by the Holy Spirit “Christian,” is willing to say that Episcoplains, Congregationalists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Universalists and Catholics, which your ilk deny are “true Bible-beliving, born-agains Christians.”
So are you now changing your tune and saying that other denominations that aren’t like you are truly Christian?

cknuck on August 22, 2010 7:31 PM posted: “YN to base your conclusion on a treaty that Jefferson broke is a desperate and silly move politicians have said many things more older documents say this nation is guided by faith in Christ and the teachings of Jesus than there are not.”
Whether Jefferson broke the treaty or not is irrelevant to its content that was official passed by the U.S. Senate which was willing to say that the United States was NOT founded in any sense on the Christian doctrine, meaning the United States is NOT in any sense an officially Christian nation but a SECULAR republic.
I don’t care what documents you have may say. If they are not documents that are official government documents passed by our representatives and only private opinion they do not count.

I own the immediate post above this one. Forgot to fill in my name.

RtR how on earth did you pastor any church without believing in the bible the RtR theology? And you knew their level of belief that’s kind of superhuman. In your last post, you forgot your name, were you crying?

RtR: 30 years certainly qualifies you to know your “stuff”. Thanks for the well thought out posts on this subject, this fallacy that this nation is “Christian” and all the founders intended it to be so. If I may ask, are you Lutheran (you mentioned that you were trained in a Lutheran seminary I think)still, or have you moved into a different denomination? Or perhaps retired? Just curious. jestrfyl (a minister in a UCC church) also brings very pertinent posts to many subjects here on B’net. So nice to have examples of what I consider “true Christians”.

actually 30 yrs does not qualify pagan Bush was in politics for at least that and look at his work. 30 yrs is just 30 yrs especially if the theology is flawed.

Depends on what is considered flawed theology, cknuck. You and I are known to not agree on “theology”.

cknuck on August 23, 2010 3:08 PM posted: “RtR how on earth did you pastor any church without believing in the bible the RtR theology?”
When I graduated from the seminary I had been well indoctrinated in a very conservative fundamentalist Lutheran theology which I naively embraced. My saving grace was that I was not raised in the Misery Synod but joined it as an adult when I got out of the U.S. Army. I was able to evaluate it more objectively as I went on in my pastoral career and seeing that the flaws in the theology. I read theology and books on the history of the church and how it REALLY got started that did not have the imprimature and approval of Misery Synod censors, started thinking for myself rather than being spoon fed and told what I could and could not believe and started pushing on the envelope challanging its teachings. I refused to reenforce the narrow minded fundi thinking of my parishioners anymore. In short I exscaped the theological strait jacket. Fortunately I was able to escape with my pension protected by law which I know annoys my ex colleagues who would have liked to punish me by taking it away.
cknuck: I have no idea what this gibberish of yours means: “And you knew their level of belief that’s kind of superhuman. In your last post, you forgot your name, were you crying?”

cknuck on August 23, 2010 4:55 PM posted: “actually 30 yrs does not qualify pagan Bush was in politics for at least that and look at his ork. 30 yrs is just 30 yrs especially if the theology is flawed.”
cknuck, do you ever proof what you write before you post?
I could give a rat’s a– what you think of my pastoral experience. You are just a flawed fundi. I hope one day you may figure it out and escape your straitjacket “heology.”

RtR every time you call me a “fundi” with all of the other name-calling you do it reminds me of the people like you who used to call me the N-word in hopes that if they could possibly dehumanize me by making me in their mind that name then my opinion would not be real. Same tactic “flawed” just years later, same person just a different agenda.

cknuck. He who lives in glass houses should not throw stones.
cknuck on August 20, 2010 9:23 PM posted: “If there is another group that has elements that wish to eliminate us totally sure they are a problem but I can’t think of another group that is willing to go to the extremes as some Muslims. Can you? Some LIBERALS (empahsis added) have their heads so far up a “dark hole” they can’t see in the light of day.”
cknuck, you and your friends like to toss around “liberal” like it was a dirty word, don’t ya?
cknuck on August 21, 2010 1:04 PM posted: “nnmns there is no surprise about that it is very important to people like you and rtr that America be stripped of it’s Christian heritage. RtR you will promote any literature that extracts Christ’s role in the building of America. to the less than knowledgeable you are a DECEIVER BUSY AT DECEIVING CALLING YOURSELF A REV (emphasis added) is important to you in that you hope it will add validity to your nonsense.
cknuck – to you I am a DECEIVER, DECEIVING MYSELF calling (myself) a REV.
If I wanted to take the time to reaserch our other exchanges on BN I could come up with some more.
I thought you folks who call yourselves FUNDAMENTALISTS were proud of your tag. I just shortened it to FUNDI to save typing strokes.

You call yourself “the Rev” people do call themselve liberals, I do not in any way identify myself as a “fundi” Rob the Rev so you don’t get to do that either. Have fun with your life. I identify people how they identify themselves I don’t call people slang names. deal with it Rob my post has merit.

Thanks, Rob for your “history”. It is so nice to know there are ministers out there who are not totally confined to a strict set of rules when it comes to “faith”. Also glad to hear you escaped with your pension in tact! Makes life a lot easier that way! God may provide, but money to live certainly helps too!!!! )

For claiming not to be a fundamentalist you sure talk like and have a view of the bible and theology and political position like the ones I have known. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a duck.

If I wanted to point out that you are a lair then I could just refer to your quote: “I thought you folks who call yourselves FUNDAMENTALISTS were proud of your tag. I just shortened it to FUNDI to save typing strokes.” I never claimed to be a fundamentalist nor did I call you a liberal. So as for being a liar, “If it walks like a duck….” It’s not only a lie but the “you folks” thing is congruent to the way you try to prejudice in order to disqualify the opinion because you have no argument for the truth.

cknuck – If you are not a fundamentalist then what are you? You are certainly not what I would call a progressive or moderate Christian, are you? If you are an evangelical than you must also be a fundamentalist since evangelicals hold to the fundamentals of the faith.
Do not fundamentalists hold fast to what they refer to as the fundamentals of the faith; like the bible is the literal, inerrent, infallible word of God; that creation literally took place in seven days; Adam and Eve were literally made by God’s hand from the dust of the earth; Jonah was literally swallowed by a great fish; the sun literally stood still for Joshua; Jesus was literally born of a virgin woman; Jesus literally did do miracles; Jesus literally did physically resurrect; there is only salvation through faith in Jesus; all relgions outside of “orthosdox” Christianity are false and of the devil; etc.
I embrace and and proud to be called a liberal and/or progressive because that is what I am politically and spiritually.

Today’s fundamentalist Christians want to claim that Islam is the most violent religion. Howerver, they ought to look to the past of Christianity. This op ed piece from Religious Disptaches and the book it promotes is a good reminder of the violence and destructiveness of Christianity. This is why it that the “fundamentalist Christian parachurch-military-corporate-proselytizing complex,” as Mikey Weinstien calls it, is so dangerious. They would have lethal weapontry to enforce their religious beliefs on others and would feel justified in doing so because they see themselves as “God’s warriors.”
http://www.religiondispatches.org/archive/politics/3138/dangerous_religion/
Dangerous Religion Which religion has proved the most violent and destructive in US history? The answer should not be a surprise. By Gary Laderman
“Christianity” of course is a meaningless label, as I’ve written before. Like “Islam” it is too broad a category to cover the radically diverse practices, beliefs, and interpretive communities associated with it. So let me be even bolder and say that Protestants, and even more specifically, Anglo-European Protestant men, would appear to be the most dangerous religious individuals in American history. Without question white Protestant males from the colonial era to the dawn of the twenty-first century have inflicted more pain, more suffering, more terror than any other individuals in this so-called “city on a hill.”
Religious Intolerance in America: A Documentary History, edited by John Corrigan and Lynn S. Neal,

I am a Christian and you may call me a Christian, agendas to assault those of us who do believe in God are put together from the stuff your last post is made. So according to you no one is allowed to believe that God actually made man. Ha! That Christ died and rose again, or could have possibly been borne of a virgin. Yes I believe these things and more but that does not make me a “fundie” it makes you an nonbeliever that’s all. You have that right and I fought to ensure you that right but I also have the right to believe in God and I fought for that also as a matter of fact that would be the only reason why I would consider fighting again; if people like you tried to redefine and limit those rights.

YN you can look to the past to bring accusations to the entire population of the earth; why stop at Christians? Unless they are the target of your purpose in your agenda promotion.

cknuck – You are playing the victim when you are the one who is quite expert at assaulting and demeaning anyone who doesn’t agree with your pious opinion or religious belief. When someone gives a rational argument against your point of view then you claim that you’re being assaulted. Give me a break!
Your statement that “according to you no one is allowed to believe…” whatever you want to believe is ludicrous. You can believe whatever you want and I have, nor do I want, any power to prevent your belief in any foolishness you want. Just don’t tell others they must believe as you do or they a destineed for hell.
I am not an unbeliever, I am an other-believer in relation to you, for I do not believe as you believe, and you are an other-believer in relation to what I believe. Whatever we both believe is totally based on faith and not on any fact for faith by definition cannot be proven scientifically.
I too served in the military as both an enlisted and an officer to defend our freedom of religion and the separation of church and state. that is why I oppose anyone who want their religious belief system to be favored and given special advantage by our secular government over other belief systems. That is why I support Mikey Weinstein and his Military Religious Freedom Foundation http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org which is defending the 1st amendment rights of soldiers over and against certain fundamentalist Christian officers and chaplains who are abusing their authority and power and violating the 1st Amendment rights of their subordinates to coerece them into attending fundamentalist Christian meetings, services, and gatherings in order to proselyize a captive audience. And if their subordinates object these fundamentalists officers use their power and authority to make their subordinates lives miserable through persecution. These same officers denigrate other Christians who do not believe as they do and practitoners of other religions.

It’s ridiculous to think that Obama could possibly be Muslim. He champions abortion and promotes homosexuality neither are options for a real Muslim.

cknuck – I finally agree with something you said. I wish the other far-righties would finally come to the same conclusion. However they just want to blow smoke and enrage their non-thinking base.
Although there is a very small minority of thinking Muslims in non-Islamic countries that are challenging the Islamic homophobia and anti-gay stance.

1 in 4!!!
That simply means that 25% of Americans are stoopid, ignorant assholes who’ll believe any garbage the ‘right’ puts out.

YN your language shows what percentage you fall in, I doubt if you could make it any clearer.