On Sunday, Washington State bureaucrats forbade a local church from holding a baptism in a public lake near the state capitol.
Saying that she interprets the state constitution to bar religious use of any state property, the acting director of the state Dapartment of General Administration, Jane Rushford, declined to issue Olympia’s Reality Church a permit to use Heritage Park’s lake for outdoor immersion of new converts during the church’s annual picnic.
“We are approving their use of Heritage Park for the purpose of a picnic, a barbecue. We are denying their permit for the purpose of holding a baptism,” said Rushford’s spokesman Jim Erskine.
The church held picnics two previous years at Heritage Park without incident.
In a written appeal, the American Center for Law & Justice asserted that prohibiting baptism in a public lake violates church members’ rights protected by the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
Rushford’s decision came after consultations with lawyers in the Attorney General’s Office and with the Governor’s Office.
Not answered was why the church asked for the state’s permission. Beliefnet calls to church officials have not been returned.
Outdoor baptisms have been conducted throughout history without government involvement. There is no record that John the Baptist sought any permits.
posted August 15, 2011 at 1:08 pm
I have lived in Washington state for over 20 years, and I am married to a state native. It is a beautiful place with mostly great people…except the government bureaucrats who find it their mission to undermine personal freedoms, and doing so undermine our ability to have any outward signs in our faith and love for God. I am by no means a fundamentalist, yet I cannot help but feel our government and its bureaucracy are evil. I am ashamed of our state.
posted August 16, 2011 at 8:47 am
Once again government oversteps its boundaries when it comes to the issue of the Separation of Church and State. But in fact, appears to have made a law “prohibiting the free exercise” of an established religion which is something they are equally not allowed to do. The confusion comes when atheists or anti-religious individuals use the Separation of Church and State to ban religious symbolism from the public place. The Constitution has no say on that matter, only that the Church will no longer rule government.
You have to remember your history to know what all this is about. The Church used to dictate the law in England. Separating ourselves from English rule, we wrote the Bill of Rights because we wanted to establish those things that distinguished us as a free country. The Separation of Church and State is number one.
But, it’s about law. It’s not about taking “In God We Trust” off a dollar bill. It’s not about stopping Congress from praying before session. It’s not about keeping the Bible out of the court house. Those are the smoke and mirrors that non-religious individuals have been getting away with for years.
It’s only about Congress making a law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…
Stopping a baptism in a public place is anti-American, non-Constitutional and quite frankly, anal if you ask me.
posted August 16, 2011 at 9:27 am
I just wrote Jane an email:
Dear Jane Rushford,
I recently read an article about the permit you declined that would have allowed Reality Church to hold a baptism in a public lake. I can certainly understand what you might have thought when you declined the permit. But, the Bill of Rights and the issue of the Separation of Church and State really has nothing to say on this matter.
Keeping the Church and State Separate is not about taking the words “In God We Trust” off of the dollar bill or banning Congress members from praying before session. It has nothing to do with taking a Bible out of a court house and it certainly doesn’t address public baptism. What the Bill of Rights address and what the Separation of Church and State is about is keeping the church from dictating law.
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
It’s just about making the law and keeping an establishment of religion from dictating law to us. Religious symbolism in the public place is not addressed in the Constitution. But government is increasingly made to feel as if every time someone has a problem, they have to step in and solve it.
Symbolism is all around us. People practice different things for different reasons. It’s actually the color of life that gives the world its flavor. We should try to practice tolerance rather than try to make this world void of all its flavor. If something isn’t hurting anyone, why make it an issue? And just because because someone complains, it doesn’t mean we need an act of Congress.
“Momma always told me life was like a box of chocolates…” It’s true. You never know what you’re going to get. Just because someone’s miserable great aunt doesn’t like the stew, it doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t have a taste.
As far as a permit is concerned, could it have been much easier to simply tell them they didn’t need a permit to take a swim in the lake?
posted August 16, 2011 at 10:30 am
What ever happen to Freedom of rights? Why are we fighting overseas if can’t have the right to use the water. If you can swim you can be baptised inthe water! And I know that a lot of people that use the water to bath in. If you need to, then by all means bathe, Please do! But then we have the right to have a baptism!!!!!!!!!
posted August 16, 2011 at 10:39 am
Im glad you stood for what you knew was right way to stand for God our father
posted August 16, 2011 at 10:40 am
Public parks are paid for by the citizens. If a tax paying citizen wants to be baptized, they should be allowed to be baptized anywhere they want. Most bodies of water are managed by the government, but if swimming is allowed, so are baptisms. Do not let them take away our rights as citizens nor infringe on our religious freedom. Time for a baptism/reconfirmation marathon!!
posted August 16, 2011 at 10:46 am
Im really upset over all the ways the American Government has stepped over the boundaries of Church and State. I feel they spend way too much time protecting the rights of atheist and anti religious groups and far too little time protecting the Religion our country was founded on. I fully support the religious beliefs of ALL peoples and do my best to spread the Word. I know my Lord is comming back and I know where I’ll be on Judgement day. Believe me that on that day I am glad I am not one of those Government officials or anti religious groups. Have faith all ye Christians,praise Him, stand up, and share the Gospel. We are safe in His love, mercy, power,and glory,FOREVER. Praise God!
posted August 16, 2011 at 11:00 am
As usual, Alternate Lifestyles, Liberals, Atheists, Anarchists and all other beliefs have ALL THE RIGHTS while peace loving Christians have NONE!!!
posted August 16, 2011 at 11:54 am
As long as access to the lake is not denied to others, public baptisms should not be prohibited. These acts do not violate anyone’s rights. The natural resources of the community should be enjoyed by all, even for religious purposes, if done responsibly.
posted August 16, 2011 at 11:58 am
Oh my God, what is happening to US?
posted August 16, 2011 at 12:45 pm
Washington State bureaucrats’ flawed logic should then prohibit a family from praying before eating their picnic meal by the lake as well! I was born and raised in Washington State and it is a shame that such a beautiful state so consistently takes such steps to actually prohibit freedom of religion, particularly for Christians. For some reason denying free access to Christians taxpayers seems to be the acceptable goal in the Evergreen State, while all other religions’ rights are carefully protected. Unfortunately, it isn’t just a trend in our state, but can be seen nationwide.
posted August 16, 2011 at 1:06 pm
Once again the governmet’s so called officals have to have their two cents of input put in this matter. What in the world are these people doing? Putting their noses were it does not belong. These people want to say it is all right for the Muslims to something, but the Christians can’t. The government can ot stop the baptism in the lake, river, creek or ocean. What are these people afraid of? That God may strike down? Maybe that needs to happen so the government offials see the light. There are so many from one end to the other end of this big nation of ours that are afraid of the big bad wolf, separation of church and state. This country was formed with God as the one and only religon to go by. Our founding fathers didn’t know anything about Islam, or any other religon other than Cristanity. Why a big part of our laws that are from the very pages of the Bible. There is no reason why they should change to fit one group or another. Our founding fathers said go to the church of your choice And that is how it is supposed to be. The previous post ask what is happening to this coutry? It is going to just what some members in Congress want to go. Jesus told us what was to happen and it is going just like he said. Thank God for allowing the baptisms because the angels are singing and dancing around the throne of God when a person comes to be baptised.
posted August 16, 2011 at 1:06 pm
It seems to me that every group except Christians are allowed to do what they want, when they want. The separation of church and state was so the state (government) couldn’t dictate which religion was right (acceptable) like the kings did back in England. It never had ANYTHING to do with the government saying what couldn’t go on with religion.
A little history study might help some of these officials and their lawyers. I wonder if the ACLU might help these folks be able to baptize again? Oh yeah, they are to busy pushing the Ten Commandments out to worry about anything like this I guess.
posted August 16, 2011 at 1:07 pm
The last two paragraphs are very good, and; The last line of this story — says it all!
posted August 16, 2011 at 1:31 pm
I would defy these elected officials and go ahead as the Lord leads at the lake. It’s amazing that government has no problem with the “Christian” tax revenues that they take each year, but then want to dictate how we choose to use the facilities that our taxes pay for.
As Christians we should obey the law as long as these laws don’t interfere with the direction of a higher power – the highest power – that is as God directs. We have been told of the persecution that will come upon the children of God, we must be prepared to stand up for Christ.
Christians has historically have been passive as they display a character of Christ-like love in the face of adversity. Such reaction (or non-action) has resulted in what we are seeing nation wide.
posted August 16, 2011 at 1:49 pm
True, John the Baptist did not need a permit to baptize people in the Jordan River. But then, look what happened to him. It’s my observation that Christians are all too ready to talk about how discriminated and persecuted we are, but I find myself wondering if there are any who would die for their beliefs, as did the Baptist, Stephen and all the other martyrs who “went all the way” for their faith. I hate seeing these mountains made out of molehills and held up as examples of how awful the government is and how terribly mistreated we Christians are. Does this church not have a baptistry? Again, it’s not clear to me just why this congregation asked the state’s permission to conduct the baptisms in that lake, but I’m taking a wild guess that it was to create just such a scenario so they could moan and complain about how persecuted they are. Wonder what Jesus would have to say about all this? Just a thought…
posted August 16, 2011 at 3:56 pm
I believe the taxes of the church members help pay for that place too. Besides, this IS America, land of the free and home of the brave. Wait, we do have a right to assemble peacefully. So do all other groups. Hmmmm, why would we fuss we can’t? Anita, I think our rights are being stomped on. Yes, we do have a right to be upset. I don’t believe Jesus expects us to sit and do nothing while evil leaders mistreat His church. Mark 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” It kind of sounds as if Jesus might be offended when we aren’t allow to baptize. Just a thought ……
posted August 16, 2011 at 4:54 pm
That is our government for you. They have even taken off “In God We Trust” on our new coins on the front of the coins and put it on the edge where we all know it will rub off and cannot be seen. No wonder the American people are so totally disgusted with our government and politicians!
posted August 16, 2011 at 6:55 pm
By allowing and blessing many things that are seen by the scripture as an abomination, it was only a matter of time that such a thing would take place. There is a place in the scripture that speaks about the fact that in the last days those things that are wrong will be viewed as right and acceptable, and those things that are right and good will be viewed as wrong and a threat. That is taking place my friends, and it is only the beginning!
posted August 16, 2011 at 6:56 pm
wake up america dont let goverment rule religion. ”GOD RULES FOR ME”
posted August 16, 2011 at 7:34 pm
It is needless to say that government is just too intrusive into the affairs of its citizens. It has gone too far.
posted August 16, 2011 at 7:38 pm
God has no rules for Baptizing people in a lake that HE created. If people can go in the water to swim, why can’t they be baptized in the same water. There are no potions used to contaminate the water for a baptism. Just the sign of the Cross over a human before and after they have been submerged. Nothing pollutes the air or the water. After all, children pollute the lake a lot more when they urinate in it and then people swim in that same water. Go figure!
GOD IS MY RULER FIRST — GOVERNMENT RULES MY LIFE AND ITS FUNCTIONS — SECOND, BUT FOREMOST!
posted August 16, 2011 at 8:33 pm
I need more information, is swiming ok in this lake? If swiming is not permited then the members of Reality Church have no leg to stand on. On the other hand if swiming is ok then this is a good case for a suit. Why if swiming has been permited would a permit for baptism be needed? Has the law changed do to some polution problem? I will be
posted August 16, 2011 at 8:55 pm
Swimming or no swimming were not cited by the bureaucrats. They cited their interpretation of the state constitution which says that state resources cannot be used to support religion.
posted August 16, 2011 at 10:38 pm
And what if somebody drowns during the
ceremony and the state is faced with an
expensive and scandalous lawsuite?
Igor
posted August 17, 2011 at 6:33 am
Risk issues were not cited by the state. They said they were interpreting the state constitution to read that no state resources may be used to support religion.
posted August 17, 2011 at 12:49 am
The government needs to stop interfering with god’ s people and let them do what god wants them to do ,other wise god is going to bring wrath a upon the government
posted August 17, 2011 at 1:36 am
It is very disturbing and sad to see this happening; What amazes me is that other organiztions( protestors)0 ara alllowed to use Public Places to display their views or dislike against other ethnic groups
Individuals came to this country to be free of Opression of their beliefs; Where are we heading; All our rights are gradually being taken away; We need to be let known that we have the right to profess our faith not only in Churches,Temples etc;
posted August 17, 2011 at 5:47 am
Every Church member needs to vote and become involved in the Political process. People were recently arrested in Deaborn, Michigan for passing out the Gospel of John, The anti-Christian posture of our Government is not acceptable and we must let them know it at all levels
posted August 17, 2011 at 5:47 am
Now,I’ve heard of everything. Our government has a dark cloud hanging over it and if it dosen’t lift by those in authority, then God himself will lift it. And when that time comes, they will have wished they had done the right thing by, we the people.
posted August 17, 2011 at 8:11 am
Why does the Gov. always have to put there two cents in???, mind ur own business, it’s sad that the AMERICAN PEOPLE cant follow there religion, this is an outrage.
posted August 17, 2011 at 8:44 am
This is total nonsense..The government neesds to keep their nose out of the churches business! They always have something to say and do but most of it is junk! Leave the church people alone Ms. Rushford and find something useful to do! People like you make me and others SICK!!!
posted August 17, 2011 at 9:04 am
This is happening everywhere. A Country “The United States of America” was founded in “God We Trust”. Now we cannot even have the rebirth of our lives in public places. Is this truly what they think that Jesus would do? I believe in Prayer everywhere and any time. This will never stop. I am Proud to be a Christian. This is the one thing that no man can take from me. I serve only God!
posted August 17, 2011 at 10:13 am
If it is true we can not use state land for religious activities, then quit letting the Muslims block public streets because they can’t all fit in their Mosque. Those streets belong to the state just as much as the lake does. Enforce it evenly, or not at all.
posted August 17, 2011 at 11:28 am
The gentility of a lion should not be mistaken to be timidity. Whomever who is disallowing people from exercising their freedom of worship and practise is holding the hand of God and let me remind you – God is love to the lovable and a consuming fire to the children of darkness. You Ms Authourity, beware. The best that is expected of the government is to provide security during those exercise of faith and not to hinder people their freedom of religion
posted August 17, 2011 at 11:49 am
Possibly there are concerns other than religious or political ones for the State’s decision. It could be that the lake poses hazards, such as undertows, currents, etc. that would use emergency personnel un-necessarily. Also, there is the possibility that health concerns–water contamination, would be the problem. And, there is the legal factor of responsibility. There is a place that uses–a clear, cold, mineral stream that is used for Baptisms here in Texas. It was used in the 60s but because it became on private lands, the owner would not allow it. Idon’t see this as an “anti-religious” event, but there are other issues.
posted August 17, 2011 at 1:23 pm
The reason the state gave after meeting with their attorneys is that the current interpretation of the state constitution is that no state resources can be used to promote religion.
posted August 17, 2011 at 12:20 pm
What are we doing as U.S. citicins to protect our constitutional right to religion the gays can now sit beside our children in school and harrass our child for not being gay but our child can not talk to them about Jesus. Not only that but they can not even pray if someone else knows it. We can not read a bible in school but we can in prison how bout we change in school not in prison, or would that take to much money from the government. Obama claims to be christen but he claimed he grew up on a farm. He wasn’t even born in the US so why is he still in power. Look at what has happened to us since he has been in power more then ever we are homeless and starving. well hey I’m a single mom with two boys and I got no subsidised housing, food stamps, child support, ect. I am in extreme danger of loosing my home for my children, so how about we all start taking care of our own people first. why are our own children hungry, homeless, and without medical.
posted August 17, 2011 at 2:54 pm
The evil one is alive and well in WA. It would seem his tool of choice these days is a bureaucrat with an over-inflated sense of self-importance and an all consuming fear of offending the non-Christian world.
posted August 17, 2011 at 6:08 pm
jesus was baptised in a river so what is the problem? we need to put the bible back in the school i was born in the usa and nobody will tell me how to live my christ life. i belive in god. he is the one who put us here
posted August 17, 2011 at 6:33 pm
JUST GOSE TO SHOW YOU HOW THE WORLD IS CHANGING FOR THE WORST,WERE RUNNING OUT OF TIME YOU WONT BEABLE TO GO TO OUR LORD AFTER THE FACT!!!!!.
posted August 17, 2011 at 8:29 pm
That is really sad.
I was baptized in a Creek when I was younger and it was a memory I will never forget.
posted August 17, 2011 at 8:33 pm
I THINK ITS A SHAME FIRST OF ALL, FOR THE GOV.TO GET INVOLVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.I PRAY PEOPLE WOULD RECONSIDER, SUCH THINGS
posted August 18, 2011 at 5:49 am
That is the most stupidest thing I have ever heard of..They use to have baptism in lakes all the time. I was baptised in a lake. It just goes to show that they will do anything to dispose of GOD or anything related to him. Thats so they can have an anything goes and we are suppose to except that.I think its a disgrace.Praise God and ALL who love him and who are not ashamed to admit it.tut tut tut ..they can say anything they like doesnt matter the whole idea is to get rid of the religion that this country was founded on
posted August 18, 2011 at 7:12 am
This is so WRONG and This is why our WORLD is FALLING APART! maybe the government should talk to God! God Bless our Rights.
posted August 18, 2011 at 9:38 am
Another vote for this being an essentially blatant abuse of the state stepping in where its none of their business. Baptisms of that style have been held for generations in this country.
It shouldn’t require a church with a baptismal font for a valid baptism.
Thank goodness John the Baptist didn’t have to file paperwork.
Just another reason this country is in such poor moral condition.
posted August 18, 2011 at 10:11 am
Where in the Constitution does it mention anything about Separation of Church and State. It mearly states that the Government can not establish a state Church or prohibit the free exercise of religion. To let someone do a baptism in a public lake does not establish a State Church. Besides the public has always had free access to public waters. Sounds like an attack on my religious freedoms. If they were Muslims wanting do exercise their religion it would be OK.
posted August 18, 2011 at 11:37 am
What’s next, denying the church bus the use of public highways?
posted August 18, 2011 at 11:43 am
Here’s a way around the permit issue. Have the new convert and the minister stand on the lake’s edge. When given the sign, the convert falls in the lake, to which the church’s minister runs in to save the convert and declares that te convert is saved by God. The State cannot forbid saving someone’s life, right?
posted August 18, 2011 at 4:48 pm
I wonder if the ACLU would fight for the rights of Reality Church to perform baptisms in this lake? Scratch that, b/c the A(anti)C(Christian)L(liberal)U(union) won’t have any of it, they’re too busy fighting to take the Ten Commnandments out of our court houses and federal buildings (where they’re needed the most, mind you). They’re also busy fighting to silence the Christian Church and to keep the Name of Jesus out of our mouths and our prayers. By the way, what are they afraid of? Are they afraid that God might come down and actually change them? One can only pray that He does!
posted August 18, 2011 at 5:21 pm
what is this do the government people not really know or care who Jesus is. I would not want to be in their shoes when Jesus returns and he will. No one can stop him and they should not even be tryingto stop his work on earth…. Let Christians love their Lord thy God.
posted August 18, 2011 at 7:21 pm
wgat happened to our freedom of religion? we are becoming a communist country coz there is no freedom…God have mercy on us all..
posted August 19, 2011 at 1:35 am
If a group wanting baptism in a public lake is denied, then we might as well deny any group of friends or families from doing any type of dunking while they are enjoying a day in the water. As long as that is not being denied, I say to this church, get in that lake get dunked in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
posted August 19, 2011 at 9:07 am
Politicians are insane!! Washington state did not put the water there. GOD did! They have no right to tell Christians they cannot perform baptisms in the lake.
posted August 19, 2011 at 6:05 pm
IT IS A SHAME THAT WHEN IT COMES TO SOMETHING THAT DEALS WITH CHURCHES THAT POLITICS HAVE TO GET INVOLED ,FIRST THEY HAD TO TAKE IT OUT OF SCHOOLS, NOW WHEN JOHN THE BAPTIST BAPTIZED CHRISTIANS IT WAS IN LAKES.COME ON PEOPLE WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE. THIS WORLD ID IN SO MUCH TROUBLE ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY ,JUST THINK ABOUT IT , WHEN YOU NEED THE LORD , I HONESTLY PRAY HE IS THERE FOR YOU .
posted August 20, 2011 at 2:50 am
When we baptise we don’t need man’s permission. We ask in the name of JESUS, that the person’s sin befor-given. Amen
posted August 21, 2011 at 3:01 pm
I am ashamed of a country and state that does not follow it’s own declariation of Independence and freedoms. What harm would have been done for a group to baptise a member in a local body of water???
posted August 23, 2011 at 11:55 pm
That’s sad, baptisms are one of the essences of Christianity.
posted August 24, 2011 at 12:25 pm
The church should not be baptising in the lake anyway, Lake water while it may symbolize purity is not pure, you can get a parasitic infection from lakes. It happens in Florida regularly, so much so during the month of Aug. most lakes are closed. This infection can and often does kill the individual once the ameoba hits the brain. My Dad was a baptist preacher and contracted a nasty infection on his legs after a baptismal service in a lake. This is the 21st century, use a pool for the sake of all involved!
posted September 5, 2011 at 6:41 pm
If I’m not mistaken and I am sure I’m not, the lake, the river, the land and everything in it belongs to God so what business is it of the government to deny anyone to be baptized in His water. When are the people of this country going to stop being afraid of our government. What will they do…arrest you for being baptized?