Much of what you wrote is true but to me it seems only true for ourselves. I am to love my enemies that is true. But, government is given a different responsibility from God, a different mandate. Government is used by God to punish the wicked and to protect the innocent. I am not advocating torture at all…. but Cheney was right in thinking his job was to fight the evil. You and I, lets love the lost to Jesus, but also demand that our government exercises its responsibility to protect the innocent from terrorists and abortion.

I assume that Cheney is a pretty smart guy and knows that torture doesn’t work, at least if getting any useful information is the goal. My guess is that the goal was actually to showcase the Bush administration’s desire to torture others, especially those we knew to be innocent, akin to a certain crucifixion a while back. That way, we are able to strike fear in entire peoples, similar to the fear they live under in their own countries from their own governments. The resentment will produce a large harvest of motivated enemies, continue the justification for a large military and endless war. Cheney wanted to make the world and our country a more dangerous place.
However, this blog should not advocate that Cheney or our government should seek to apply Christian values to policy or that we are or should ever be a “Christian Nation.” Our national soul stems from the ideals of the Enlightenment of which only a subset of the ideas found in the Bible have been applied along with ideals from other sources, with many of the bad ideas of our Christian religion discarded (xenophobia, genocide, murder, sexual discrimination, intolerance, slavery, etc.)
Finally, “turn the other cheek” was not meant to be applied selectively or be part of an interim ethic, etc. It is a Christian imperative.

One of the missing topics in this discussion is the need to recognize that the persons being tortured are religious fanatics. Often for religious fanatics enduring the torture honors their beliefs and will not produce information sought by those doing the torturing.

What is the cost when a government does anything and everything to “protect the innocent”? We should never allow those who represent the U.S. to do anything to anyone – “evil” or any other kind of enemy – that we would not want done to any of our own citizens in any other country’s name of justice or protection. We would be coming out of our skin with horror if any of “our boys” were tortured in the way we have allowed. Anything less than treating all other humans as we would wish our people would always be treated and we become just as monstrous as those who would hurt us. Personally, I would rather lose my life than lose my soul.

This administration has worked hard to breakdown any effectiveness it had by disclosing the methods used to obtain information. The word torture alone has leverage enough to breakdown a captive to some degree. Torture indeed, after reading what was prescribed, I thought they were intending to haze some new inductees to a frat house. During a time of declared war, we were actually quite humane with our prisoners, considering. I agree that it is the governments responsibility to protect it’s people, even to the point of war. That includes destroying property and killing others and yes even scaring the prisoners with threats. The enemy is just as adamant to their cause, namely converting the world to Islam. How many Christians/Jews do you suppose they would tolorate?

I agree totally. But I also agree that this is one of the most difficult of Jesus commands to us. And thus, I believe it is one of the most important and also most ignored. I read a brief bit on the web while searching for something else (it may have even been on beliefnet) about a prayer found on the body of a woman who died in Auschwitz. This is the prayer and I believe we need to burn it on our souls whether Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or whatever.
O Lord, remember not only the men and women of good will but also those of evil will. And in remembering the suffering they inflicted upon us, honor the fruits we have borne thanks to this suffering — our comradeship, our humility, our compassion, our courage, our generosity, the greatness of heart that has grown out of all this; and when they come to the judgment, let all the fruits that we have borne, be their forgiveness. Amen.
Rev. Claudia

I guess all cruelty is justified as opposition to somebody else’s abuse. Everybody feels like a victim, just striking back for justice. It’s strange, but a lot of people who claim to be strong Christians actually believe that forgiveness of enemies is stupid. They figure that treating others as they would be treated is foolish weakness, because force and intimidation is all those people understand.

I believe that God put it best;Vengence is mine sayeth the lord.I am a former soldier who served in peace time.I believe that obtaining information to get results to out do the enemy that has killed our neighbors;i.e. 9/11 victoms.We should fight any ideology that is against God and Jesus.God told the hebrews to fight and not leave one of their enemies alive. The muslim faith says to kill all who will not convert to their way of faith.We believe in the right to your belief and the free excersize thereof.But if we suggested to kill anyone who didn’t agree with us ,that would not be God’s way.So I will leave it with the creator of all.Know this,if it comes down to defending my country from terrorists,then I will pick up arms to do that.That’s my God given right.Thank you,Denise

I like to say that we need to make the muslims understand that we support Israel.Have you ever read Zachariah 14.It tells what God will do to all the nations that go against Israel.Their flesh will rot off their bodies while they stand on their feet.Along with their eyes,and tongues.God created the earth and everything on it.Don’t think that he isn’t capable of what this states. I as a former soldier would fight to defend our religious freedom,for the holy bible.

I believe that the subject of turning the other cheek is a very sensitive subject that has been explained and become more of a personal matter. I have to agree with Our Lady soldier (thanks for your service). When the waters of the flood, reseded, God gave Noah 6 commandments. Gen.8 One of them said “Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, BY MAN shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man. 1500 years latter he gives an other man named Moses, 10 commandments and one of them says” Thou shall not kill” So how do we reconcile these two verses. With Noah’s commandment, God was establishing what we know today as “Human Government” And the apostle Paul says in Romans 13. Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
The U.S Government is established by God to protect its citizens from terrorists. The fail us if they dont. What we cannot do is take the law in my own hands a kill some out of vengence. Only the Established Law of God should be upheld. But because of so many consessions with our enemys and politics is why we are where we are. Its very easy to talk of turning the cheek when its not your wife, daughter is raped, or your family is murdered over idealogy

Our President, Obama has said, He would like to sit and talk to these people to see if he can change their mind about how they feel about us. He doesn’t yet understand that, they really dont want much, only that they just have this strange idealogy to convert the world to their religion and worship Ala. The President should first start by trying in changing their mind about the Jewish People. If He were to succeed with that, maybe he may have a chance about changing they minds about the U.S.A. This has been their persuit for centuries with out end. Pretty soon our women will have to be peeking through the opening of a turban. And all American men, will have to wear long skirts and live in huts. If we having confessed our loyalty and allegiance to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, should we turn the other cheek and deny him for the sake of not offending the Arab world?
We should not harbor hate for them because Jesus died for them too, but if they refuse Jesus, there is no other sacrifice that can save them, much less a sitdown conversation. Our God given instinct to preserve our life and the life of others including our loved ones and country, should not be given away as a lite thing without value. We are not being asked of God to pay the ultimate sacrifice of Salvation Jesus already did that.

The terrorists have defeat us more if they make us into something that is inconsistent with our most fundamental beliefs about justice and decency than when they knock down our buildings and kill our people. Look at the contempt Cheney shows for the core principles of our Constitution.
And torture doesn’t even work.

Paul, your essay is right on target.
It is a genuine mystery how people who think of themselves as Christians could actively support such a blood-thirsty person as Dick Cheney. Cheney is absolutely wrong to claim that his job was to “fight the evil.” His constitutional job was to protect and defend the Constitution of the USA—which forbids cruel and unusual punishment, among other humane values. Instead of doing their jobs, Cheney and his administrative co-hearts were acting like terrorists—determine to get their way in securing access to foreign oil.
Actually who is being tortured (religious extremists or not) is irrelevant. Torture is a violation of anyone’s human rights. The USA was quite inhumane in dealing with our captives under the Bush administration—as the whole world knows.
Lots of commentators here have explicitly or implicitly repudiated the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. The God that Jesus revealed is a far sight from the blood-thirsty tyrant depicted in some Jewish scriptures as calling for the killing of entire populations of people and animals, so that a “chosen” people could have access to their land. And some are puzzled as to why some of their descendants are a bit upset with the descendants of the murderers who stole their land.

Whose side are you on Paul?
The democrats knew about the methods used against prisoners. Pelosi met in 2002 with others and was briefed on this entire matter. She saw the detention centers she knew what was going on. Well it’s been a long time since 2002……and she never said one word about this entire matter. This is a witch hunt on the past administration. The Democrats cant forget about the past long enough to even make changes for the future.
So what do you want us to do Paul, give all our secrets and strategies away to our enemies? You think they are our friends? They are the same people that took off Daniel Pearls head. The same enemies that cut off his arms and legs. But then he was Jewish and that does not matter to liberal bloggers and the media. And then there was Nick Berg and Paul Johnson, Gene Armstrong, Kenneth Bigley ………..and……and

Those who support aggression and hatred in the name of Christianity invariably resort to the old testament for their references. Remember that the old testament is not a Christian document. Jesus was a radical: he came to change the way people think, to save us from our destructive and self destructive legacy. You cannot quote the old testament to support your beliefs and feelings against the teachings of Jesus (at least not if you want to call yourself a Christian). That’s a prime example of what Shakespeare said: The devil can use scripture for his purpose.
Aggression begets aggression, and hatred breeds more hatred. Hitting back is the easiest thing to do, certainly, and it is often what the powerful do best. But it is precisely what Jesus said we must overcome. Speak truth to power and the truth will set you free. No matter how much you may love your country, no government will ever save your soul.

I’m not sure why christian people do not trust what their God says. He said through Jesus Christ Love one another as I have loved you. Christians follow those words, but seem not to be able to live them. Jesus also said I have come to abolish laws not to make them. Two commandments he made. Love God above all things and love one another. How can torture be included in those words? Do you people not trust the words that Jesus said that God well take care of those that follow him or is it that you fear your physical extinction more that your spiritual eternity.

Churchmouse,
Assuming the claim that Pelosi knew, a claim that is not confirmed, tell us whether you would have supported her in breaking the law to speak out against the criminal activity that the Bush Administration engaged in.

THANK YOU!
As an Evangelical, I am constantly stunned by what my fellow believers will allow to be done in their name, and often in Jesus’ Name!
I realize that this might make me one of those dreaded and evil members of the “religious left,” but I look at people who want to keep saying “In God we trust” on our money but aren’t willing to trust in His Word.
For my own part, I’m absolutely opposed to torture — use whichever euphemism you like (enhanced interrogation, etc.).
By the way … what does Rep. Pelosi have to do with anything? It looks to me like a moral argument contrasting VP Cheney with Jesus. Partisanship doesn’t play into this.

These Alzheimer’s commercials and ads for meds trouble me. Do I have Alzheimers’s along with everything else that has been diagnosed via electronic records? If I do, it is too bad, as my sons have already told me I can’t live with them. But I have taken care of both of my parents. If I had a husband of child with such a disease, I would keep him/her at home until I had used up every option. The nursing home would be the very last option. In this country today, a nursing home is where you go to die.

I think we are all afraid in some way of something that is different from us, or someone who is different from us. Only in high school, with all of my common minded friends did I ever feel like I wasn’t different. And then at 42, I found AA, and again found a few kindred spirits. But even there, many just thought I was crazy…and different. But none of us are unique. Somewhere there are others who think and act like us. We cling to them and rightly so. As for Cheney, Bush, torture, I don’t think we should just let it go, especially since lives are still being torn apart because of them. However, on a personal level, I have forgiven everybody in my life now and in the past. And already moved on. We must get the nation to move on and out of recession and depression. We must not think that if a person has one bad day they have relapsed. We can’t judge another’s heart. But our nation must heal from Vietnam, the Bush/Bush years..all 12 of them. Twenty years if you count the eight years the Republicans stayed on Clinton’s back, and delayed progress on most fronts, except balancing the budget, of course. For me, my finances started going down as soon as Bush II took office. I have learned from these days, however. I don’t regret the past or wish to close the door on it. But still, we must move on, even as Divine Justice takes place as the Statue of Liberty shakes that mighty Fist. WE must move backwards to slower days, and afternoon naps, and front porches, and lemonaide stands. Block parties, neighborhood watches, picking up litter, tearing down dangerous houses, mowing yards that are overgrown, growing our own veggies. Talk to our grandparents and parents and see what the Greatest Generation did to survive. We are there again, and the dreamers of the Baby Boomers can surely go from groupies and communals to bringing back American and our HOPE. The media is responsible here. When they say the recession is over, it is over. Let’s move on. We have miles to go before we sleep.

that ad…let’s talk about it…well, let’s talk about it.
I have asked a dozen questions that haven’t been answered…like
going to doctor Mondaya and surgery the 28 that is a secret for some reason.