An excellent comment, thank you Mr. Palmer. Many Christian churches are focusing on what God wants of us now instead of defining God through their hatred of others.
I fail to understand how my monogamous marriage to another man can be anything but a positive example of how Christians can live in faith and trust.
Here’s to a successful weekend with a good march, brilliant speeches and a Nobel Award winning President who might just finally stand up and take a firm position!
The link posted at the beginning of the article is broken, I have attached your URL to this comment.

Here is a snippet of Mr. Ellison:
—
He [Ellison] wonders, “How exactly does the number of partners affect the moral quality of a relationship? … Could it be that limiting intimate partnerships to only two people at a time is no guarantee of avoiding exploitation?”
Besides pondering marriage for bisexuals, he protests that the narrowly “bipolar” definition of marriage excludes “intersexuality, transgenderism, transsexuality and other sexualities.”
Many of his fellow homosexuals doubt marriage is worth seeking or supporting, Ellison reports, because the institution has been so oppressive and so heterosexual. He, for one, has no intention of marrying his male partner if that becomes possible.
—
Calling evil good. How extremely twisted. If society were to actually follow his prescriptions, may God have mercy on us all.

Citing Ellison as an example of those of us in monogamous, loving, faithful and true marriages is rather a bit like my pulling up quotes from that charming little Church in Kansas and saying they represent all you conservative Christians.
Westboro Baptist and Ellison are exactly the sort of people who make a rational discussion enormously difficult.
This thread is about religious voices at the gay rights march, Acts4_12, not about Ellison. And you know it.
Maybe I should just bring Westboro into the discussion. It usually takes at least two days to bring a thread on human rights for gays down to the hateful level. Congratulations. You managed it in less than 12 hours.

I will be standing proudly beside my LGBT brothers and sisters at the National Equality March today precisely because I’m a Christian. I believe that Christian values require that straight Christians love LGBT individuals – including our brothers and sisters in the pews – as ourselves and require that we ensure that the rights God has given them are acknowledged by government.
Further, I believe that any hate expressed against LGBT individuals – including that weak and meaningless “hate the sin, love the sinner” crap – soils the name of Christ on earth, associating it not with love and mercy, but with hate and judgment. Such attitudes are sin, plain and simple, and anyone who holds such views needs to immediately repent, ask God to change his or her heart, and work for equality.
I promise you that the next generations will look at this generation of Christians in the same way as we view our grandparents who used the Bible to defend racial segregation, or our parents who continue to use the Bible to defend sexual segregation and the oppression of women. This nation’s – and the church’s – continued discrimination against its LGBT people is an affront to God and should bring shame to our faces until we’ve ensured that it’s been undone.

Article “No wonder growing numbers of Americans find the Church irrelevant to their lives, particularly their sexual lives.”
They find it irrelevant because they want to lead a sinful life. They do not want anyone to tell them what to do and how to live…even if it is Jesus Christ.
Sir Julian Huxley was asked once why people had so quickly embraced the theory of evolution. He said, “It is because the concept of a Creator-God interferes with our sexual mores. Thus we have rationalized God out of existence, To us, He has become nothing more than the faint and disappearing smile of the cosmic Cheshire cat in Alice the Wonderland.
This is exactly what is happening today. People are rationalizing God out of their lives by rejecting the Word. They don’t want to live it so they change it to fit the sin they want to practice.
Article “As this summer’s actions at the Episcopal and Lutheran general assemblies demonstrated, our religious communities are finding their way forward on the long journey from “sexuality is sinful” to “sexuality is holy,” and from “God created sex for procreation” to “God created sex for pleasure.” That journey requires a transformation in religious thinking, followed by a transformation in religious teaching.”
They demonstrated that they are caving in to what part of society demands. They are turning their backs on Gods Word. In my opinion they are nothing short of raping the Word. God spells out exactly what sex sin is and they are in denial.
Article “Contracepted sex, non-marital sex and casual sex challenge centuries of religious moralism, yet progressives are finding the theological grounds for defining queer sex as sinful increasingly shaky.”
These are all scriptural sex sin. A child could read the Word and understand it, it is that clear. But progressives want to find an out to justify their actions. Most liberal theological thinkers even sell Christ out. They take away His Divineness.
Article “Religious progressives marching in D.C. this weekend are taking a stand for equality and social justice. May their activism awaken the larger Church to its responsibility, long overdue, to shed outdated moralism and embrace humanity it all of its queer, sexual, spiritual glory.”
With every step they compromise what God says is sin and they will have to answer one day for their positions and actions. I pray those that know the Word, that live the Word daily will stand up in love and faith, against those who want to compromise and change the Word.

Seems like the only response to the embrace of this kind of sin is words from the prophet Isaiah 1:
Ah, sinful nation,
a people loaded with guilt,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the LORD;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him.
5 Why should you be beaten anymore?
Why do you persist in rebellion?
Your whole head is injured,
your whole heart afflicted.
6 From the sole of your foot to the top of your head
there is no soundness—
only wounds and welts
and open sores,
not cleansed or bandaged
or soothed with oil.
7 Your country is desolate,
your cities burned with fire;
your fields are being stripped by foreigners
right before you,
laid waste as when overthrown by strangers.
8 The Daughter of Zion is left
like a shelter in a vineyard,
like a hut in a field of melons,
like a city under siege.
9 Unless the LORD Almighty
had left us some survivors,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom;
listen to the law of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
Jesus came to save us from sin, not so you could embrace it. You are advocating the sin for which Christ died. Repent from your wicked ways.

Of course, all these charming comments from the ‘God hates fags’ branch of Christianity couldn’t have come at a better time…opened the paper this morning to another Republican Bible-thumper sex scandal.
Still waiting to hear why my monogamous, faithful, loyal and true marriage is such a threat when all you conservative Christians get done making excuses for Republican number…gosh, can’t remember whether this is the fourth or the fifth for this year…not counting the scandals which carried over from 2008. And 2007. And 2006…
The hypocrisy is beyond belief. The false witness a genuine sin.
Not all gays and lesbians are sexual libertarians. Hint: Those of us who either marry outside the US and those who seek to marry in the US are, by definition, not sinful sex fiends. Why on earth put up with the hassle from you folks if having sex were our only agenda? As studies show year in and year out, nobody has more sex before and more adultery during marriage than you fundamentalist Christians.

Panthera take your problem to God. He is the one you should be upset with. I do not make law, He did. I just follow and stand on it. I certainly do no hate you I just believe that you are living a sinful lifestyle if you engage in sex outside marriage. Marriage was instituted by God for one man and one woman. Show me ONE scripture that backs up the same sex marriage claim. Show me One scripture that says any sex outside marriage is ok.
It is no skin off my back and does not hurt me personally that you are sinning in this way, by living and having sex with a man. It does concern me that you rape the Word by condoning something that mocks God, mocks His commandments….all in the name of your brand of Christianity. There is only one kind of Christian, one that follows the Laws of Christ, one that accepts Him as the Son of God, the ONE who died for sin to give eternal life.
What does bringing up Republican sex scandals have to do with this? You want to throw that in our face why? If any politician, Republican or Democrat has sex outside marriage with someone other than their spouse……they are sinning. This happens with both sides politically. And your point?
About marriage. You might think that your marriage is alright in Gods eyes but scripture says something differently. Show me just One example of marriage between two same sex partners in either the Old or New Testament. Make a case for what they claim to be Godly. Then explain why God did not address same sex unions based on what He says about marriage.
I had an abortion and I sinned, I learned that later by studying the scriptures. You must do the same with your sin. You can find anyone to marry you and call it ok. You can get married in any country in the world that says marriage between two same sex people is ok. Call it whatever you want. Just because society says its ok does not mean it is. God says it is wrong and I think you know this but are trying like I did to justify the sin inyour life. You want to find people who will back your up, who makes you feel good about it.
Like I said you need to bury yourself in scripture and ask God to show you truth. Because the way I read the Bible and the way you do about this topic are completely opposite. There is only one truth. Make your case but do it scripturally. Do not rely on what society says, they are not the one who died that you might find new life.

“I don’t remember hearing religious voices at my first March on Washington in 1993, so I consider this a sign of progress.
You’re pretty late to the game then, Tim. Rev’d. Troy Perry helped organize the first march on Washington back in 1979. Interesting that your article doesn’t even mention the Metropolitan Copmmunity Churches. The denomination was establisehd in 1968 (hint: that pre-dates Stonewall).
MCC is what spurred ‘mainline’ denominations to take another look at Scriptures. They discovered they don’t all necessarily say what we’d been told they say.
Why the omission of MCC’s contributions to the struggle for equality?

“They find it irrelevant because they want to lead a sinful life.”
CM, your faith may dictate that gay people inherently “lead sinful lives”, but many other faiths don’t. You’re entitled to your beliefs, but you sure as heck don’t want to extend that freedom of religion to other people.
“They do not want anyone to tell them what to do and how to live”
We sure as he11 don’t want you to tell us (or anyone) how to live their lives – just like you don’t want other people to tell you what to do or how to live life. (Dhouldn’t that be “lifestyle”?)
“…even if it is Jesus Christ.”
I know Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is a friend of mine. And cm, you’re no Jesus Christ.
“In my opinion they are nothing short of raping the Word.”
Thanx 4 your “opinion”. Hope you don’t mind if we trust Christ’s opinion over yours (Hint: He said nothing about homosexuality; maybe you should do likewise).
“A child could read the Word and understand it, it is that clear.”
Well, perhaps you should get a child to explain it to you then {O) Besides, you don’t follow all of what the Word says, so who are you to judge others?

Blue Collar Todd,
Interesting you chose an admonition to Sodom and Gomorrah – a story about heterosexual rape – in a piece about homosexuals. Go look in Ezekiel to discover what was the true sin of Sodom.
Then maybe you can repent from your wicked ways of bearing false witnes (a sin, remember?) about God’s gay and lesbian children.

churchmouse,
“Panthera take your problem to God.”
The problem with you is you don’t believe that Panthera (or any other gay person) already does take his/her problems to God. Some of us do. And yet you still post. Does this mean God doesn’t answer prayers at all???
“He is the one you should be upset with.”
Why would we be “upset” with our Creator, who saw fit to call us into being despite the fact that God knew in advance that some of God’s created would actually be gay? ‘Magine that!
“I do not make law, [God] did. I just follow and stand on it.”
No, you stand on some of it, selectively culled to match your beliefs. I mean, you don’t put disobedient children to death. (Do you?) You don’t deny communion to the disabled. (Do you?) You don’t put the victims of rape to death. (Do you?)
“I certainly do no[t] hate you”
You certainly act like you do.
“I just believe that you are living a sinful lifestyle if you engage in sex outside marriage.”
As you’ve been told umpteen times before, you’re entitled to your beliefs. We, OTOH, believe otherwise. Why aren’t we entitled to our faiths’ beliefs?
Also, you forget (yet again!) that Panthera, and Lutheran Chick and I (and 18,000+ in California, and Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Iowa, Denmark, Spain, South Africa, Canada, Sweden, the Netherlands, etc. ARE married. Legally!
“Marriage was instituted by God for one man and one woman.”
Not Biblically. It was also 1 man and several wives (not to mention the concubines and slaves). Oh, and you forgot the “for life” part. Isn’t that part and parcel of the fundamentalist POV anymore?
“It is no skin off my back and does not hurt me personally that you are sinning in this way, by living and having sex with a man.”
You sure spend a lot of time condemning us on these boards if there is indeed “no skin off your back”. Why, you’d think we’ve personally come over to your place and slapped you across the face with our marriage certificates. (Oh, BTW, lesbians are doing no such thing – “having sex with a man”. Why do you always seem to think there are only male homosexuals?)
“It does concern me that you rape the Word by condoning something that mocks God, mocks His commandments….”
Kind of like it “concerns” us that you constantly do the same thing by bearing false witness (which actually IS one of the 10 Commandments). We can see you mocking god. Perhaps we should lend you a mirror.
“all in the name of your brand of Christianity.”
Which is how you do it too, remember.
“There is only one kind of Christian, one that follows the Laws of Christ”
Then that leaves you out, doesn’t it?
“What does bringing up Republican sex scandals have to do with this?”
About as much as the Sodom & Gomorrah story has to do with same-sex marriage and equal rights for LGBT citizens.
“You want to throw that in our face why?”
Probably for the same reasons that you like to come here and spout/throw your beliefs in our face. Why?
“I had an abortion”
Pretty much irrelevant, apart from the claim you made earlier about being “Christian” (since obviously, your faith also teaches that this was a sin when not all faiths do).
“I learned that later by studying the scriptures. You must do the same with your sin.”
Again, you presume we haven’t studied Scripture. This only proves you simply do not know us. Certainly not our hearts. Or our walk with God.
“Like I said you need to bury yourself in scripture and ask God to show you truth.”
We already did that, and God already did that. You just refuse to believe it because God didn’t tell us what God told you.
“Because the way I read the Bible and the way you do about this topic are completely opposite.”
We’ve been telling you that since forever. If you can’t agree to disagree, then buzz off. We already know what you believe and how you read Scripture.
As if either of us is going to change the other’s mind. If God can’t do it, you sure as heck can’t.

Husband……..what would your definition of Christian be? Does someone have to accept the Bible as Gods Word to be a Christian? Does someone have to believe that Christ is the Son of God to be a Christian? The virgin birth to be a Christian?
It’s not about my beliefs or what I think SHOULD be right. The core, the key is what does scripture say? What does scripture say about marriage? About sex? About sin?
Can one be a Christian and deny what Christ said?
You are right I am no Jesus Christ and I do not pretend to be. But Husband I accept the Word and I live and stand by it. I do not deny the things that just might convict me. I will ask you the same thing as I have been asking Panthera for months. Make a case for same sex marriage and use the Bible to do it. This has nothing to do with love. I am sure that same sex couples love as Christ commands….but the sex part, the lust part is sin. If I am wrong show me…but show me by scripture.
Pro-athletes who play on teams have to abide by the rules of the game. There’s no fifth base in baseball, no ball in hockey, no helmet in golf. A perfect game in bowling is 300. As a player you can’t change the rules whether you want to or not. What I see here are people who want to change the tenants of Christianity because they don’t like the rules.
I am not telling you how to live, this is simply a forum to discuss issues. I am however making a case and using the Bible on why same sex sexually relationships are wrong.
You say I am wrong, then show me scripturally where I am in error. Quote what Christ said about marriage. As I challenged you…..make a case for same sex marriage and sex outside marriage.
I am looking forward to the scriptures both Old and New Testament you provide in defense of your position.
Produce scriptural evidence.
You might have been married by the state…….but that is not really important, its what God considers marriage. Which is more important, Gods Words or the governments?
Was slavery ok to God just because it was legal in the United States? Abortion is legal now, how would God feel about the killing of his creation? It was illegal at one time….was God upset then that the option for woman to kill their children was not available?
We must put Gods Words FIRST. There is no case for same sex marriage and sex outside marriage in the Bible period, or you would provide a lengthy list of scripture. You are justifying your actions by the state, ignoring what God has to say.

Panthera,
Take heart my man. There would be so much we could disagree on, but everything within me wants to say: “brother”. Phileo, if I spelled it right.
In the spirit of cooperation, optimism, courage and most of all generosity I hope we meet – perhaps even work together some day.
See now: I still, at least in my mind, refer to my gay friends as my “gay friends”. Its like that race discussion that we never have. It is difficult to be honest, because sometimes honest is ugly.
Nevertheless, that is what courage is for. To face your fears. And that is what generosity and grace are for: hoping that others will not disgrace you when you are being honest.
I was watching the tele the other day, thinking that the gay folks are right to be calling Obama to account – but also in the back of my mind thinking “well, its their fight” shying away. Just like I passed over this particular belief.net article. And now coming back. I need to make this my fight. Don’t get too zealous on me, it took 10 years for me get here. But I do have spheres of friends, colleagues and acquaintances. I can take a stand there – difficult as it may be.
Difficult in personal relationships that I hope to have hold together. When I say “I support gay marriage” you can believe the stress in some instances. Again however, I’m less tolerant of just going along to get along. Being honest with myself has to trump anything else.
You guys and gals keep being who you are. You are your own best testimony to love. And courage. You cannot have got this far without them.
Speaking as a 49 year old parent of three: Thank God for death. It sweeps out generational prejudice so that new generations can start without the baggage of their parents.

“Speaking as a 49 year old parent of three: Thank God for death. It sweeps out generational prejudice so that new generations can start without the baggage of their parents.”
Being against same sex unions has nothing to do with hatred. You can love someone but believe their actions are wrong. Christ loves me but when I sin, I dishonor Him and He is not happy.
We have the Bible for a reason. We can do this and still love our fellow man. The Bible is a sacred book and a source of truth for Christians. It is the inspired Word of God. We would have nothing without the Bible because God tells us how to live on earth and how to have eternal life. The things God has revealed to all creation we should take seriously.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Generations might die but scripture stays the same. It is sin to take out or change anything from this holy book. To ignore the scriptures that convict us is wrong.
You imply Nat that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person. What do you base this on? Do you hate me? To say that you wish me dead because of my views, what is that? When I had my abortion I was not remorseful whatsoever. I was young and did not think it through, I was not walking right with God. Years later someone pointed out scripture that convicted my actions. I killed a living human being. They did this because they cared, because the loved me. It was not their opinion that my actions were sinful, they showed me where God said my actions were sinful.
I do not hate gays, I do not hate anyone. But I love God more, it is His Truth I stand on. I have researched this issue and no where in scripture is there a case for sex outside marriage. There is no case for marriage other than that between a man and a woman.
If there is then make it by showing scripture.

“what would your definition of Christian be?”
One who follows the teachings of Christ. (Christ happened to be silent on the issue of homosexuality, btw.)
“Does someone have to accept the Bible as Gods Word to be a Christian?”
Which parts of which version of “The Bible” (TM)? You certainly don’t follow/accept them all. And, if you did, I’d be even more frightened than ever, since it clearly states you should put the victims of incest to death, put disobedient children to death, and that eating shrimp or lobster is “an abomination”. It also hails David’s love for Jonathan as “great, suprassing the love of women” which I doubt you “accept” or agree with.
“Does someone have to believe that Christ is the Son of God to be a Christian?”
Most Christian faiths teach that. But what it has to do with equality rights (regardless of “Christianity or any other faith – in a country that ‘promises’ freedom of [and from] religion for ALL its citizens) escapes me.
“The virgin birth to be a Christian?”
As I pointed out, your questions, tho’ somewhat interesting, are pretty much irrelevant. This isn’t just about “Christians” (no matter how they’re defined or who gets to define them). You will note some input from jews and Unitarians above (if you bothered to read this article – like you didn’t the other one).
“It’s not about my beliefs or what I think SHOULD be right.”
Nonsense. You post on nothing but your “beliefs” (and how many times have we told you you’re entitled to your beliefs – if only you would grant the same courtesy to others – which you don’t) and what you think is right. Obviously we think our beliefs are right. You just happen to disagree and haven’t the courtesy to agree to disagree. Instead, you stalk these boards trying to impose your beliefs into laws governing others who are not of your faith and who do not hold your beliefs. Your disparagement of our beliefs mocks our humanity. I see nothing of the Christ in what you post. No charity. No compassion. No grace. No love. No truth.
“The core, the key is what does scripture say?”
Sadly (for you) that is not “the key”. “What Scripture says” (and I sure wish you would honor Scripture by capitalizing it the way it deserves) is irrelevant in secular laws governing the secular rights of the entire population, many of whom are not of your faith and who do not hold your beliefs.
“Can one be a Christian and deny what Christ said?”
Since Christ was silent on the issue of homosexuality, I think your blowin’ crap outta yer head.
“I am no Jesus Christ”
Agreed!
“and I do not pretend to be.”
Disagree – because He is the judge and you aren’t (though you are judgemental).
“I accept the Word and I live and stand by it.”
No, you “accept” parts of it and “stand by” some of it.
“This has nothing to do with love.”
Your posts never do have anything to do with love. I think you wouldn’t recognize love if it hit you in the kiester.
“What I see here are people who want to change the tenants of Christianity because they don’t like the rules.”
Actually, despite the fact that I, like Panthera and Lutheran Chick, etc., were all married in our respective Churches, this argument has, by and large, been a secular one. Christianity is not the only religion in the world or in America, for that matter. Your church has its own rules (even tho you’ve broken and continue to break quite a few of them), but they are irrelevant to people not of your faith. We are discussing secular laws – equal treatment before the law is ‘guaranteed’ in the Constitution. Your religion (or any other) is pretty much irrelevant.
“I am not telling you how to live”
I call B.S. – major B.S.!
“You say I am wrong”
I say you are irrlevant.
“You might have been married by the state”
In that you most definitely ARE wrong. I was married in my Church – and the State recognizes it.
“but that is not really important”
How dismissive. It was very important for me. And my husband.
“its what God considers marriage.”
That is only important to the religious, not to the State. And, since I am a person of faith, I abide by the tenets (note, not “tenants”) of my faith.
“Abortion is legal now, how would God feel about the killing of his creation? It was illegal at one time….was God upset then that the option for woman to kill their children was not available?”
Coming from someone who had an abortion, you are not in a position to even enter into a discussion in such a judgemental way, let alone compare our love to abortion. Or are YOU allowed to “ignore what God has to say”.
Talk about hypocrisy.

“We have the Bible for a reason.”
Um, do “we” also “have” the Q’uran for a reason? The Bible (TM) is not The Official Holy Book Of The United States Of America. Is it?
“You imply … that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person. What do you base this on?”
Your writings, mostly.
ck, oops, cm, you keep asking for a Biblical foundation for same-sex marriage. Here’s a challenge: Can you make a secular case against same-sex marriage?

mouse,
YOu keep saying you don’t hate gays. Here’s proof, and they’re your words: “because they want to lead a sinful life”.
Since you cannot (do not) know the hearts of God’s gay and lesbian children, how can you make such a statement and yet think people won’t find it hateful or judgemental? How do you know what other people “want”? This is yet one more example of the false witness you constantly bear against gay people.

“You imply Nat that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person.”
Really? Let’s start here. Where did I make this implication?
Simply put: I was not addressing you.

I can’t recall any Bible scripture that says that one has to give up being gay or lesbian to accept Christ as Lord and Savior. However, if they then try to conform to the Word of God, they will eventually have to think about what is written in Romans Chapter 1. They may also wish to read about Lot in the book of Genesis.

Before selling the Church short, let’s look at a couple examples to remind ourselves of the influential role the Church has played throughout U.S. history to support and promote social changes.
First, let us turn to the abomination of slavery. Prior to the Quakers and other evangelical religious groups in the 18th century, the slave system aroused little protest in America or England. It was the Church that first condemned slavery as un-Christian. It was also our Christian ancestors, specifically, the Congregationalists, Mennonites, Methodists, and Unitarians who organized the “underground railroad” to help slaves escape northward towards Canada and southward into Spanish held territories. Slavery, much like the issue of gay rights, was an incredibly devisive issue for the Church, literally ripping it apart. In fact, you will remember that the Presbyterian, Baptist, and Methodist Churches divided into separate church bodies over the issue (sound similar to what is happening in today’s church?).
Again, in the 1950′a and 1960′S the Church played a pivotal role in the civil rights movement in the United States. While the goals of the movement were achieved in large part by African American preachers, the success of this new social revolution depended on both the black and white Church given that the federal government had moved ever so slowly to protect the rights of blacks in the south. A major factor in persuading whites to support these bold changes came from the civil rights workers ability to appeal to the Christian values and ideals of the Church, as well as the moral values of the nation at-large.
The issue of greatest importance is not when the Church entered into the support for gay rights, but rather the fact that the Church is now deeply committed to the struggle for equality. The Church, as cited above, has had a long history of challenging the status quo, calling for social revolutions and seeking justice for all peoples.
Is the Church moving quickly enough? Probably not; but institutions like this are not know for moving at a rapid pace. However, the church moves with compassion with a commitment that relationships are just as important as the issue itself. I am convinced that, albeit too slowly for many, the Church will once again serve a critical and compaassionate role in the success of gay rights.

@Husband,

Um, do “we” also “have” the Q’uran for a reason? The Bible (TM) is not The Official Holy Book Of The United States Of America. Is it?

Are you equated the Quran to the Bible? The Muslim faith to the Christian faith? No the God’s Word that is found in the Bible is not the official Holy Book of America, it is the Word of God. Jesus is the exclusive Savior of mankind and there is no salvation found in any other religion.

Husband said, “One who follows the teachings of Christ. (Christ happened to be silent on the issue of homosexuality, btw.)”
He didn’t mention pedophilia either but do you think it’s ok? What He did say said volumes about marriage. Give scriptures that say anyone other than a man and woman may marry.
If you are a Christian you must accept all He says, not part of it.
There are many translations which all say the same thing. Christ said He was the way to the Father……this is the same in all translations. The beginning creation is the same, the birth, the death, the resurrection all the same, just worded differently. Show me any translation where God condones marriage between same sex partners.
You bring up equality. Where does God say He loves one person more than another? Where does He believe that certain people are exempt from having to follow the Word? Where does He say sin doesn’t matter?
You say that I post about my beliefs. True, I do and so do you. And I believe that Christ is God and that the Bible is the Truth, the only Truth. I believe Christ died for me, that He did this because I couldn’t have gotten to Heaven without Him. I say all this because THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO. So my beliefs come directly from the Bible. If you want me to post scripture about this to back the case against same sex marriage I would be happy to do that. But I think you know what the scriptures say.
Husband said, “You just happen to disagree and haven’t the courtesy to agree to disagree. Instead, you stalk these boards trying to impose your beliefs into laws governing others who are not of your faith and who do not hold your beliefs. Your disparagement of our beliefs mocks our humanity. I see nothing of the Christ in what you post. No charity. No compassion. No grace. No love. No truth.”
Agree to disagree about what? Do you think the Bible is negotiable? I believe you either accept it ALL as the Word or none of it. I believe all of it, even the scriptures I question and do not understand. I stalk these boards? So I can’t debate or discuss anything, but you can? Because I stand by what I believe God says in the Word I am hateful? Who is not being tolerant here? You are the one that can’t agree to disagree. You think I am hateful because I simply state what I believe to be the truth. I am not trying to impose anything here. How could I? It’s a forum to share ideas and thoughts. You are the defensive one not me. I question actions here not hearts, that much you do not get. If you were on a site debating someone who was doing something you morally opposed and found ungodly, what would you do? Cave in to Gods Word to make the person feel good, or speak in love about what God said? You obviously think that if anyone questions or calls someone on something they are hateful. How do you live that way? Not questioning any ones actions. The fact is if you did a deductive bible study on marriage you would see that God only talks about marriage between the opposite sex. I asked you to make a case scripturally for same sex marriage and to use the bible. Why haven’t you presented anything? The fact that Christ did not talk specifically about homosexuality does not mean it is not wrong. Like I said He did not talk about a lot of things that are morally wrong. He inspired men to write what He wanted us to know and how to live.
About judging…….I am not judging any ones heart, but I have the right to judge actions. In fact Husband you are judging me right now. In our society people judge all the time. Judges pass sentences on people, we judge our children’s actions, their friends, teachers judge, police judge. We couldn’t live unless we made righteous judgements about people and situations. God judges hearts however that we cant do.
I accept the entire Word as God. And God said sex outside marriage is sin. It is you that denies and tries to get around this one.

“Christianity is not the only religion in the world or in America, for that matter.”
You are right it is not the only religion in America or the world. If you are a practicing Christian that should not matter should it? You should show the love of Christ and take the Great Commission seriously. Christ gave us the Word for a reason. He came to save the lost. And the lost are people who have not accepted Him. This is scriptural. Do you deny this? Don’t you care about those who will be left behind if they do not accept Him? He cared and talked about hell more than love. Why?
My church believes the Bible and we do not answer to any denominational authority. We believe all of it. You say I am telling you how to live. The Word should tell you how to live. I am not. I present scripture.
“I was married in my Church – and the State recognizes it.”
I am sorry but I believe that your church does not stand at least on this issue on sound doctrine. I have asked repeatedly for you to make the case scripturally for marriage between same sex couples. You have not provided one scripture. That says it all.
I believe that you put what the State says above what God says. Let me ask you this question. If hate crimes legislation goes through and Christians are silenced and not allowed to quote from Leviticus or any other book for that matter will that stop you? If they declare the Bible hate literature would you agree simply because the government told you so?
“Coming from someone who had an abortion, you are not in a position to even enter into a discussion in such a judgmental way, let alone compare our love to abortion. Or are YOU allowed to “ignore what God has to say”.”
I am in a position to witness to others that my actions were sinful. And someone stood up to me and showed me SCRIPTURALLY that abortion is sin, that I had killed another living human being. The Apostle Paul killed as well and God used him for good. Are you saying that my sin is unforgiveable?
I judge actions, you are judging hearts.
You know I have no idea if you are a Christian or not. I am thinking now after this statement that you aren’t. “Um, do “we” also “have” the Q’uran for a reason? The Bible (TM) is not The Official Holy Book Of The United States Of America. Is it?”
If you are a Christian, how can you think that Christ is not the ONLY way, that Allah and Muhammed are false prophets? All faiths can’t be right.
I asked, “You imply … that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person. What do you base this on?”
You answered….”Your writings, mostly.”
Aren’t you judging me here? You say I do not have the right to judge others actions, but then you turn around and do it yourself.
“Can you make a secular case against same-sex marriage?”
I became His when I accepted Him. I follow what He says. That is the big difference. I abide by our laws yes, but if the law ever asked me to do something that goes against my faith, I would not do it. I would never take the mark of the beast. You are different because the laws in America seem to come first for you. I do know this. We all were born from a woman. It takes a sperm and egg to make a human being.
“Can you make a secular case against same-sex marriage.”
I can make a secular case for anything including rape and other sins as well. But I am a Christian so secular means nothing to my faith.
Your Name I do not hate gays. We all sin. If this discussion were about some other sin I would still quote scripture that calls it as such.
You know I can’t figure out why it’s so hard for you guys to get it. I never said gays could not be saved. I never said they were less of Gods creation. I never said sex outside marriage kept anyone from heaven. I said the ACTIONS ARE SIN. Lying is a sin, lusting is a sin, abortion is a sin, murder is a sin, coveting, worshipping idols, sex outside marriage………ALL SINS.
How many of you think that someone who is a pedophile is sinning, or rape for that matter? Now watch it because Christ never talked about either one. You said gay sex was ok, simply because Christ never mentioned it firsthand. Is rape ok, is sex with a minor ok?

“Are you equated the Quran to the Bible?”
I think you mean ‘equating’, not “equated”. And no, I’m not equating anything. I asked a question in response to the statement of your opinion that “we have the bible for a reason”. You don’t bother to actually state your opinon as to what that “reason” might be, not do you even address the fact that ‘we’ also ‘have’ the Q’uran. Must be a reason ‘we’ ‘have’ both books, no?
“The Muslim faith to the Christian faith?”
Not equating them; comparing them. America does have freedom of religion still, no? And what of the Book of Rao? The Book of Mormon? The book of Kells? Why should the entire nation follow the beliefs and tenets of religion to which they do not subscribe? You have yet to explain any of these.
“No the God’s Word that is found in the Bible is not the official Holy Book of America”
So why do you post as if it were?
“it is the Word of God.”
Why? Because it says it is? That’s what’s called ‘circular arguing’ – My Book is right because my Book says it’s right.” You’ve really got to do better than that.
“Jesus is the exclusive Savior of mankind”
Because your says so? Sorry. No sale.
“and there is no salvation found in any other religion.”
According to your religion. This is just so hollow, so empty, it’s hardly worth wasting time and energy on. If that’s the best you can do, you are going to fail.
Come on – make a valid, secular argument why gay people should not be treated equally before the law? You can’t. (If you could, you would have done so by now.)
Thanks for trying, really, but you’ll have to do better.

“Are you equated the Quran to the Bible?”
I think you mean ‘equating’, not “equated”. And no, I’m not equating anything. I asked a question in response to the statement of your opinion that “we have the bible for a reason”. You don’t bother to actually state your opinon as to what that “reason” might be, not do you even address the fact that ‘we’ also ‘have’ the Q’uran. Must be a reason ‘we’ ‘have’ both books, no?
“The Muslim faith to the Christian faith?”
Not equating them; comparing them. America does have freedom of religion still, no? And what of the Book of Rao? The Book of Mormon? The book of Kells? Why should the entire nation follow the beliefs and tenets of religion to which they do not subscribe? You have yet to explain any of these.
“No the God’s Word that is found in the Bible is not the official Holy Book of America”
So why do you post as if it were?
“it is the Word of God.”
Why? Because it says it is? That’s what’s called ‘circular arguing’ – My Book is right because my Book says it’s right.” You’ve really got to do better than that.
“Jesus is the exclusive Savior of mankind”
Because your says so? Sorry. No sale.
“and there is no salvation found in any other religion.”
According to your religion. This is just so hollow, so empty, it’s hardly worth wasting time and energy on. If that’s the best you can do, you are going to fail.
Come on – make a valid, secular argument why gay people should not be treated equally before the law? You can’t. (If you could, you would have done so by now.)
Thanks for trying, really, but you’ll have to do better.

“You are right [Christianity] is not the only religion in America or the world. If you are a practicing Christian that should not matter should it?”
What actually does matter is that America ‘promises’ all of its citizens freedom of religion. Ergo, some people are going to not believe what you believe. And you just hate that.
Apart from all the pseudo-’Christian’ mumbo-jumbo you spout, you ask a rather interesting question: “Don’t you care about those who will be left behind if they do not accept Him?”
According to one religion, only 144,000 will actually be ‘taken up’ and, since you’ve had an abortion, mouse, I doubt you yourself will be among them.
“My church believes the Bible”
If you are representative, then your church believe some of it. I’ve frequently pointed out the parts you don’t accept, so pardon me if we don’t pay attention to a selective semi-literalist.
“We believe all of it.”
Clearly, demonstrably, visibly – you do no such thing.
“You say I am telling you how to live.”
And you are. And we’re telling you to mind your own business.
““I was married in my Church – and the State recognizes it.”
I am sorry but I believe that your church does not stand at least on this issue on sound doctrine.”
And, yet again, we’re telling you that you are free to believe that aobut my church, since we believe the exact same thing about yours.
“I believe that you put what the State says above what God says.”
And we don’t care what you believe. We believe differently.
“If hate crimes legislation goes through and Christians are silenced and not allowed to quote from Leviticus or any other book for that matter will that stop you?”
If I believed in the little green tooth fairy, would that make you stop spreading false witness? I doubt it. But still you do it. FYI, that is not what the hate crimes legislation is about, nor will it be the end result of its passing.
“If you are a Christian, how can you think that Christ is not the ONLY way, that Allah and Muhammed are false prophets? All faiths can’t be right.”
Yours sure the he11 isn’t.
“I asked, “You imply … that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person. What do you base this on?”
You answered….”Your writings, mostly.”
Aren’t you judging me here?”
No, I’m judging your writing. (Can’t you read?) Terrible stuff.
I asked, “Can you make a secular case against same-sex marriage?”
You answered … nothing. You cannot, just as I thought.
When you go further and say, “I would never take the mark of the beast.”, it seems like you are saying I am a Satanist, or, at the very least, Satanic. I believe that’s against B’net’s rules of conduct.
Then you go further yet and say, “I can make a secular case for anything including rape and other sins as well.”
See? That is precisely why we find you hateful. You compare our loving, committed adult human relationships and compare them to rape. Go screw yourself, hatemonger. And, if you can “make a case for rape”, I have even less respect for you than ever. That’s just vile, putrid, disgusting, anti-human talk. And yet you say you claim to follow Christ. Christ would vomit you out.
“I do not hate gays.”
Yes you do, because just after that you add, “We all sin.”
Being gay is not a sin.
“I never said gays could not be saved.”
If ‘salvation’ looks anything like what you type, I want no part of it.
“I never said they were less of Gods creation.”
Sorry, but you believe being a gay person is the same thing as (or at the very least, comparable to) rapists and child-molesters and necrophiliacs. Seems you do think we’re lesser creatures.
“Is rape ok, is sex with a minor ok?”
You are just disgusting. So please keep on posting what you post so all the world will know what it is really like being a “Christian”.

I asked, “You imply … that anyone that disagrees with same sex marriage is a hateful person. What do you base this on?”
You answered….”Your writings, mostly.”
Aren’t you judging me here? You say I do not have the right to judge others actions, but then you turn around and do it yourself.
Why no answer?

“There are many translations which all say the same thing.”
If only they did, we wouldn’t be having this, er, ‘discussion’. But they don’t, and you yourself admit as much when you say they’re “just worded differently”.
“You bring up equality.”
Yes. It is the essence of this discussion, not your (or anyone else’s) particular Holy Book, nor your (or anyone else’s) interpretation of one.
It means that, though you harp on marriage, there are so many other facets that you refuse to address, like not being able to serve in the military, like not being fired for being (or being thought to be) gay, or being able to visit our spouses in the hospital or make medical decisions for our incapacitated spouses, like not being covered under the Equal Protections Clause or the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution, like the 1,176 FEDERAL benefits we’re denied. Equality means, in effect, justice for all. And you sh!t on both equality and justice with your hollow God talk.
“I believe that Christ is God and that the Bible is the Truth, the only Truth.”
Etcetera, ad nauseam.
mouse, we keep saying you’re entitled to your beliefs. You, otoh, keep telling us our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to hell because of them. Why don’t you believe in freedom of religion?
“I say all this because THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO.”
Circular argument – my book is right because my book says it’s right.
Husband said, “You just happen to disagree and haven’t the courtesy to agree to disagree. Instead, you stalk these boards trying to impose your beliefs into laws governing others who are not of your faith and who do not hold your beliefs. Your disparagement of our beliefs mocks our humanity. I see nothing of the Christ in what you post. No charity. No compassion. No grace. No love. No truth.”
Yes, I did say that. And I stand by it.
“Do you think the Bible is negotiable?”
Clearly you do. You don’t believe we should put the victims of incest to death. You don’t believe we should put disobedient children to death. You don’t believe eating shrimp is “an abomination”. And, I sincerely hope you don’t believe gay people should “surely be put to death”. By your own writings, you show that the Bible is, if not “negotiable”, certainly interpretable.
“I believe all of it”
Pure and utter falsehood (aka the bearing of false witness, aka lying, aka a sin).
“even the scriptures I question and do not understand.”
Excuse me, but if you “believe all of it”, how then can you “question” parts of it? That you “do not understand” parts of Scripture is evident.
“I stalk these boards?”
Yes. Clearly, visibly, you do.
“So I can’t debate or discuss anything”
But you don’t “discuss” or “debate” – you merely re-iterate “what you believe”.
“Because I stand by what I believe God says in the Word I am hateful?”
No. Once again, that is not the reason you are perceived as being hateful. The hateful part comes in when you compare our relationships to child-molestation, rape, beastiality, etc. Which IS hateful. It is hateful because it is false. People read those kinds of statements of yours and see the kind of witness you bear. It puts way many more people off Christ than brings them to Him. You never seem to contemplate the impact of your constant false witness and mean-spiritedness. I see no charity in what you type because there IS no charity in it.
“I am not trying to impose anything here.”
When you say my church, its tenets and my beliefs are false, then it does come across as you imposing your beliefs on others/me. I should/must believe what you believe or I am doomed to hell. How else should I interpret what you type?
“I question actions here not hearts”
I believe it was you who said “They want to lead sinful lives”. Sorry, but that sure as heck does come across as if you know what is in other people’s hearts.
“You obviously think that if anyone questions or calls someone on something they are hateful.”
I am happy to refute your lies as many times as you care to type them. You know (or at least should know by now) that is not the reason we think you are hateful. Something about rape and child-molestation comparisons. Please re-read the many times we’ve told you why we find you and what you type hateful. Like you said, how do you live that way?
“God said sex outside marriage is sin.”
Once again, I am married. So your ‘point’ is misguided here.

The first Christians dealt with gay rights activism too:
Jude 1:
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
8In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. 9But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.
11Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam’s error; they have been destroyed in Korah’s rebellion.
12These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm—shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted—twice dead. 13They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

@Husband and others who agree;
Apparently I was under a false assumption that you claimed to be a Christian like others who share your views. But after this:
“Jesus is the exclusive Savior of mankind”
Because your says so? Sorry. No sale.
“and there is no salvation found in any other religion.”
According to your religion. This is just so hollow, so empty, it’s hardly worth wasting time and energy on. If that’s the best you can do, you are going to fail.
Come on – make a valid, secular argument why gay people should not be treated equally before the law? You can’t. (If you could, you would have done so by now.)
Thanks for trying, really, but you’ll have to do better.
It is clear that one is not a Christian if they deny Jesus’ death on the cross is the only way sinful mankind can be saved.
“Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father
Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:1-6
And sexual sin is apart of that call of repentance:
“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.” Romans 1:17-25
No sin is excluded from this call of repentance. We may still struggle with temptation and sin here and there, but to deny certain acts are not sinful denies the truth of what Jesus taught and died for.

Well, it’s good to see that BCT can copy & paste (Scriptures, no less!) Boy am I impressed. And I’m sure cknuck will be glad of the company that his beliefs are shared by some others. American theocracy is safe, I guess. Not that what you believe should be/is relevant to secular laws governing all citizens. You suit each other well. Have a happy life.

BCT,
I gave this some more thought over the night and feel I need to clarify a few things…
First of all, my point to mouse was that although she is welcome to her beliefs, her beliefs are not the only beliefs (specifically, religious beliefs) in America. Obviously, I do believe in Jesus’s life, death and resurrection. But my/your beliefs do not amount to a hill of beans to anyone who might be, say, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Taoist, a Muslim, a Pagan, a Jainist, or to anyone of any other religion than Christianity, or a person who is not a person of faith of any kind. And, in America, because it does promise freedom of religion to ALL its citizens, your/my/our beliefs cannot be imposed into laws – secular laws – that govern ALL citizens.
So, despite the fact that you and mouse think gay people’s lives, in and of themselves, are “sinful”, it doesn’t matter – under the laws of the country. Because that would be favoring one religion (namely, yours) over others’. That is what the Constitution promises.
I’m sure you believe that adultery is a “sin”. Fornication (i.e. sex outside of marriage – which STILL does not apply to married gay couples, btw) is a “sin”. Lying is a “sin”. Stealing is a “sin”.
But somehow, we still allow adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves to marry (well, heterosexually, at least) despite any disdain you (or others) may have for such “sinners”. (Heck, even convicted murderers on death row can marry – heterosexually, at least. Surely the taking of a life is the most grievous possible “sin” – and, btw, I in no way think murder [or rape] is comparable to loving, consenting, adult, human relationships – but still we allow such marriages.)
It’s the law – whether you like it or not.
Enough about marriage. Next, I would like to hear your ‘religious’ defenses that would prohibit gay American citizens from serving their country in the military. Then, I would like to hear your religious justifications that allow gay people (and even those merely believed to be gay) to be fired from their jobs – which is still legal in 37 States, btw. Then, you could explain how or why your religious beliefs should apply to other (gay) people to prevent them from visiting their spouses in the hospital, or sharing their health benefits, pensions, etc.
These (and the 1,176 other FEDERAL benefits also fall under the “gay rights” banner of this thread, and you seem only to foccus on marriage.
Looking forward to hearing your responses.

Husband said, “According to one religion, only 144,000 will actually be ‘taken up’ and, since you’ve had an abortion, mouse, I doubt you yourself will be among them.”
Jesus said believe in me and you will have eternal life.
John 3:16 says that God loved the world and gave His Son so “that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”
There are other passages that promise that those who believe in Jesus receive forgiveness of their sins (Acts 10:43) and salvation. (Romans 1:16) You can’t earn it, you have to believe it in your heart and believing means accepting EVERYTHING that Jesus teaches. It also means obeying what Jesus said. By faith you are saved.
Husband said, “If you are representative, then your church believe some of it. I’ve frequently pointed out the parts you don’t accept, so pardon me if we don’t pay attention to a selective semi-literalist.”
No, we believe all of it as the inspired Word of God. What have you pointed out that I do not believe?
Husband said, “And, yet again, we’re telling you that you are free to believe that aobut my church, since we believe the exact same thing about yours.”
And I have challenged you over and over again to show me my error but to do it scripturally. Show me why my views about this are wrong. MAKE A CASE for same sex marriage, sex outside marriage. You have not provided ONE scripture to defend your position. If we were in a court of law and you were defending this view, you obviously would fail miserably. You would lose the case.
Husband said, “FYI, that is not what the hate crimes legislation is about, nor will it be the end result of its passing.”
We will follow in the steps of Canada who also passed this type of legislation. It will criminalize Christianity. It will not promote peace, it will take away freedoms to express a viewpoint, that homosexuality is wrong. As an American I have the right to peacefully speak out on something I find wrong. Or do you agree that I should be silenced? Does a pastor have the right to preach from the Bible in church? Or should the government tell you what topics can and can’t be discussed ?
I just read a Barna book and it was full of stats hate crimes some against homosexuals. Less than 1% of ALL crimes are done to the homosexual. Most all crimes were verbal. We can’t make law to afford more rights to certain people and groups. This is against the Constitution.
I wish to answer your argument about Jesus not teaching about gay marriages. I think a simple reading of what Jesus said about marriage shows the truth. He said the participants have to be male and female. The man should leave his mother and father to become one with his wife. The Commandments then say do not put asunder what God joined together. His will was for it to be as it was in the beginning. There you have it. There is nothing that makes a case for anything other than this. Jesus instituted marriage.
“31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery (or revelation of God): but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.” Ephesians 5:31-33
It is blasphemy to think differently. Jesus never mentioned pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating or any number of other sins. The only one who would use such rationale is someone who is trying to defend some kind of a practice that he is involved in. I know I used to do it to cover my own sin.
Husband said, “No, I’m judging your writing. (Can’t you read?) Terrible stuff.”
No you are judging my heart and you know it. How are the scriptures I post terrible stuff?
If you think secularly then you have to leave God out. To leave God out means you invite sin to come in and take control of your life. Only a pagan would ask such a question. You are asking me to leave God, Christ, Holy Spirit out of the equation and that is impossible if you have accepted them. The question you ask here is sad. How can you leave God and what He says out?
Husband said, “That is precisely why we find you hateful. You compare our loving, committed adult human relationships and compare them to rape. Go screw yourself, hatemonger. And, if you can “make a case for rape”, I have even less respect for you than ever. That’s just vile, putrid, disgusting, anti-human talk. And yet you say you claim to follow Christ. Christ would vomit you out.”
Husband said………”why we find YOU hateful.”
“You” means ME. You hate me. You are judging my heart. And any rapist can make a claim for rape, that was my point which went over your head.
And you have to judge my heart to find me hateful so you were lying earlier. Your actions are sinful period. The scriptures say so and you know it. You can’t make a case for same sex marriage. You can love someone and do it the wrong intentions. Two people who are having adultry could love each other but are they sinning? Yes. This has to do with loving God and that’s it. You are dishonoring God by this particular sin.

I am not perfect I too am a sinner and have done terrible things in my life. But….I did not deny my sin, I repented and ask God to forgive me. He made me new and today I try to live the Word even though I might disagree with Gods plan and His way of doing things. You want to rewrite the Word because you deny what He said about sex. I am sorry you hate me because the feeling is not mutual. I do not hate you. I love you enough to stand firm on what God says. I pray one day you finally see and live how God wants you to live. Being gay is not a sin, but living a sexual relationship with someone outside marriage is sin. And the state might recognize same sex marriage but God does not. In that way you are sinning. Any sex outside marriage is sin and that goes for heterosexuals who have sex in the same way.
Husband said,
Husband said,“Sorry, but you believe being a gay person is the same thing as (or at the very least, comparable to) rapists and child-molesters and necrophiliacs. Seems you do think we’re lesser creatures.”
Sin is sin. Show me a sin rating system in the bible where one is worse than another. When I sin I fall into the same category, the sinner category. All names are listed there. All sin dishonors God. Murder, lying, coveting, lusting, adultry, rape, abortion………IT’S ALL THE SAME. God is perfect and sinless so when we sin we separated ourselves from Him. You are no different than anybody else, so don’t play the poor victim here. God is clear about sin in the Bible. We can’t make excuses for our actions.
Husband said, “It means that, though you harp on marriage, there are so many other facets that you refuse to address, like not being able to serve in the military, like not being fired for being (or being thought to be) gay, or being able to visit our spouses in the hospital or make medical decisions for our incapacitated spouses, like not being covered under the Equal Protections Clause or the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution, like the 1,176 FEDERAL benefits we’re denied. Equality means, in effect, justice for all. And you sh!t on both equality and justice with your hollow God talk”
The topic here has been sex and marriage so far. I have not said I would not discuss the other issues you bring up. I never said that gays should not be allowed to serve in the military. I NEVER said this. And I never said gays should be denied any kind of work. There are legal ways to make medical decisions for people who are not spouses so don’t even go there. And I do not believe any hospital in this country would deny you the right to see someone you loved especially if you were gay.
Equality means justice for all. Does it mean that groups should be allowed to marry, or anyone should be able to do what they want to do even if it’s out of the norm?
Husband said, “mouse, we keep saying you’re entitled to your beliefs. You, otoh, keep telling us our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to hell because of them. Why don’t you believe in freedom of religion?”
The thing is…you claim to be a Christian. You say that “your church” supports what you are doing. I have a right to question that because I am a believer. Show me proof scripturally that I am wrong Husband. Show me and I will listen. So far you have offered NOTHING, but secular excuses and defenses. I am showing you scripturally where you are in error. Why does that offend you? Don’t you believe that the Bible is Gods Word? I honestly wonder because you make this statement.
“Circular argument – my book is right because my book says it’s right.”
You are not defending Gods Word. Why? How else do we know about Christ and what he did for us without the scriptures? Christianity would be nothing without it. If you love Christ and believe and have accepted Him why throw the Holy Word under the bus? Do you even believe that Christ is the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER? And what about the Great Commission?
The fact is you want me and others like me silenced and done away with. You know as well as I do that no case scripturally can be made for same sex marriage and that is why you have offered nothing. You have a right to hate me and if you do you sin again because God commands us to love even our enemies. You say I am your enemy.
Husband said, “Clearly you do. You don’t believe we should put the victims of incest to death. You don’t believe we should put disobedient children to death. You don’t believe eating shrimp is “an abomination”. And, I sincerely hope you don’t believe gay people should “surely be put to death”. By your own writings, you show that the Bible is, if not “negotiable”, certainly interpretable.”
I do not believe in the death penalty and I struggle with this issue scripturally. I do know about the law and obviously you do not.
The short three-year ministry of Christ, ending in his death and resurrection and His establishment of his church, makes all the difference in the transition from the OT or Covenant to the NT or Covenant. He ushered in a new era of salvation, although the old era contained the seeds of the new. The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. We Christians are commanded to read the OT and to benefit from it, but we should not take everything in it as final. Christians should honor the OT as the Word of God, just as Jesus did. But we should read it, through the vision of Christ and the spirit-filled writers of the NT books and epistles. And Jesus did not oppose the law. In fact as a Jew he honored it. When He came however things changed and we moved from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, from the Law of Moses to the law of Christ. That why He came because no one could fulfill the law perfectly. He is the one who fulfilled the Old Testament by his sinless life. He is the who fulfilled its prophecies about his first coming. He fulfilled it by his death and resurrection. He is the one who fulfilled it by the establishment of his church. And he will fulfill it at his Second Coming.
13:8 [F]or he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself. 10 Love does no harm to the neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of the law.”
We should honor and love the OT but today we should interpret it through Jesus Christ and the new era of salvation that He brought.
Husband said, “I am happy to refute your lies as many times as you care to type them.”
Then do it by providing scriptural proof that what I said is a lie. Show me where I am in error. If you were not claiming that you are a Christian I would not ask for proof. But you accuse me so you need to use the Word as your defense.
You are not married according to God. What does God say about marriage Husband?

Husband said, “And, in America, because it does promise freedom of religion to ALL its citizens, your/my/our beliefs cannot be imposed into laws – secular laws – that govern ALL citizens.”
We do allow people freedom of religion and I respect that. Christ does not force anyone to worship Him and there is no country in the world where people are forced to be Christian. That does not mean that I don’t think they are all wrong. And we also have freedom of speech in America. I have the right to voice peacefully my opinions and beliefs.
But there comes a time when you must make a stand and decide who God is and what role He plays in your life. Do you live how God says to live or do you cave in to a secular society? Thank goodness that people opposed slavery and stood against the people who condoned it. We should do that today and stand up against evil. That’s why I work with groups to make abortion illegal like it once was.
Which is more important, what God says or what our countries laws say? Obviously you go with what your country says.
Who does God say can get married?
Husband said, “I’m sure you believe that adultery is a “sin”. Fornication (i.e. sex outside of marriage – which STILL does not apply to married gay couples, btw) is a “sin”. Lying is a “sin”. Stealing is a “sin”.”
So you don’t consider adultery sin either? LOL Sorry, I guess a better question would be, what do you consider sin?
Husband said, “But somehow, we still allow adulterers, fornicators, liars and thieves to marry (well, heterosexually, at least) despite any disdain you (or others) may have for such “sinners”. (Heck, even convicted murderers on death row can marry – heterosexually, at least. Surely the taking of a life is the most grievous possible “sin” – and, btw, I in no way think murder [or rape] is comparable to loving, consenting, adult, human relationships – but still we allow such marriages.)It’s the law – whether you like it or not.”
Taking the Lords Name is worse.
You assume a lot I will tell you that. You just do not get it. You love to play the victim don’t you? I never and get this straight, said your sin is worse than any other. Let me say this again. There is no chart ranking sin in Gods eyes. Sin is sin. So if someone lies, they are sinning. If someone lusts, they are sinning. If someone murders they are sinning. The discussion here is homosexual sex and equality. If it were about stealing then I would stand out against that too. I said…..ANYONE WHO HAS SEX OUTSIDE THE BONDS OF MARRIAGE, AND MARRIAGE SCRIPTURALLY IS ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN, IS SINNING.
Show me scripture that says this is wrong. You want to categorize sin and you can’t. There are a few verses that show that some sins are more detestable than others but when it comes to salvation every act of rebellion leads to eternal death. Romans 6:23.
All sin goes against God. “All wrongdoing is sin.”
The scriptures determine absolute truth. However, when it comes to the eternal consequences of sin, they are all the same.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I am curious. In this scripture sexual immorality is mentioned. What acts would these be? How is one sexually immoral?
“Those who have been born into God’s family do not make a practice of sinning, because God’s life is in them.” (1 John 3:9)

mouse,
You presume I don’t know Scripture. And you are wrong. As usual.
“Jesus said believe in me and you will have eternal life.”
Which has nothing to do with the fact I posted that you chose to respond to, namely: ““According to one religion, only 144,000 will actually be ‘taken up’ and, since you’ve had an abortion, mouse, I doubt you yourself will be among them.”” The point being that different religions believe different things.
“No, we believe all of it as the inspired Word of God. What have you pointed out that I do not believe?”
Don’t/can’t you read? The part that says we should deny communion to the disabled (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should put disobedient children to death (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should put the victims of incest to death (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should “surely’ put (what you think of as) homosexuals to death (you probably believe that), the part that says eating lobster is “an abomination”, etc.
“MAKE A CASE for same sex marriage, sex outside marriage.”
Firstly, they aren’t the same thing, since married gay couples have sex within marriage.
Secondly, I have made many cases for same-sex marriage; they’re primarily secular, since we are discussing secular laws governing all of society, not religious laws that govern only the members of any particular religion. You, otoh, have never once made a secular argument against same-sex marriage – because you cannot.
Thirdly, this thread is not merely about marriage (though you sure seem to want it to be about only that). “Gay rights” includes (as mentioned many times previously, despite the fact that you continue to ignore them) serving in the military, not being fired, not being kicked out of rental accommodation, hospital visitation rights, medical decision making, pension rights, inheritance rights, and any of the 1,176 Federal benefits that are denied to GLBT citizens. You won’t even address any of those, so why should we have to make Biblical cases at all, especially since not all religions agree on the matter, let alone use the Bible as their source?
“If we were in a court of law and you were defending this view, you obviously would fail miserably. You would lose the case.”
If we were in a court of law, your religious beliefs would never trump anyone’s Constitutional rights. It wouldn’t matter – to a judge or to a jury – what you believe if I happen to believe otherwise. Both a judge and a jury would ask what relevance your theological beliefs are to a person who isn’t a member of your faith. They might even invoke the Equal Protections Clause of the Constitution, or maybe even the Full Faith & Credit Clause of the Constitution which guarantee equal treatment before the law – despite the fact that you think I’m a sinful heathen.
“We will follow in the steps of Canada who also passed this type of legislation.”
I certainly hope so.
“It will criminalize Christianity.”
Don’t you know that lying makes the baby Jesus cry? No such thing has happened in Canada. This is more false witness from you, which as a “Christian” you should know is a SIN (one of the Ten Commandments, if I recall correctly. And you wonder why you are neither believed nor trusted.
“We can’t make law to afford more rights to certain people and groups.”
Literally everything you propose does, in fact, afford more rights to heterosexuals, so you’re blowin’ smoke agin.
“It is blasphemy to think differently.”
According to your religion. Since I’m not a member of your religion, you can (as Kathy Grffin said) suck it.
“pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating” – ALL cause harm. My marriage does not. They also ALL involve non-consent. My marriage does not. You’re really stretching (we’re used to that), but the damage you do to your witness is incalculable when you bring up such things. So please feel free to kep bringing them up so the whole world will know what kind of person you really are.
“How are the scriptures I post terrible stuff?”
It’s “Scriptures”, capitalized, like Christ is. Has to do with respect for holiness apparently. Meanwhile, I didn’t say what you copy and past is terrible; I said your writing is terrible. And it is.
“And any rapist can make a claim for rape, that was my point which went over your head.”
And “any rapist” would still be convicted of rape, despite having ‘made a case for rape’. I’d like to hear what kind of a case anyone could make “for” rape. Over my head? I think it would be over a jury’s or judge’s head too. ‘Cuz it’s irrational, like what you post.
You Ms mouse are just plain offensive. And not particularly bright, either. And, if you believe our love is comparable to rape (etc.), you’re not a very nice person either.

“Being gay is not a sin, but living a sexual relationship with someone outside marriage is sin”
Let me re-assess my opinion of you. Not only are you not very nice, you’re a haranguer, a harasser, a bearer of false witness.
We are married. Your non-sequitur is not only irrelevant, it is a lie.
“And the state might recognize same sex marriage”
It does where I live. So your faith’s teachings are irrelevant here.
“In that way you are sinning.”
In the same way that your constant bearing of false witness against God’s gay and lesbian children is likewise you sinning. But somehow, even sinful liars like you are allowed to get married, despite God’s disapproval of your sinful, lying lifestyle.
“Murder, lying, coveting, lusting, adultry, rape, abortion………IT’S ALL THE SAME.”
With one notable exception: ALL of those sinful people who do commit those sins are still allowed to marry. Heck, I’m pretty sure that the laws of the land will even still allow sinful you to marry, despite your myriad sins.
“The topic here has been sex and marriage so far.”
Only becaue you seem to want to make it only about that. The thread is entitled “Religious voices for gay rights”
“There are legal ways to make medical decisions for people who are not spouses so don’t even go there.”
I am already there. We are married. We are spouses – legally so.
“And I do not believe any hospital in this country would deny you the right to see someone you loved especially if you were gay.”
Then you are wilfully blind to our reality. Google hospital visitation for gays in America for many, many examples that would break your heart – if you had one. You are wrong on this matter. Demonstrably so.
“Equality means justice for all.”
You may have typed it, but you sure don’t seem to believe it.
“Does it mean that groups should be allowed to marry”
No. Group marriage is not what is being discussed, despite your wish to sidetrack us down that false road. (Besides, groups do not have rights in America; individuals do.)
“or anyone should be able to do what they want to do even if it’s out of the norm?”
No, it doesn’t mean that either, nor is that what is desired, apart from the rights to both liberty and the pursuit of happiness – which would, in fact, allow anyone to do whatever they want so long as no other person’s similar rights are impaired. What being “out of the norm” has to do with anything escapes me. Are left-handed people not allowed to marry? (They’re “out of the norm”. Ditto for green eyed people.) Hey, what about that inter-racial (heterosexual) couple in Louisiana that were refused a marriage license by the local ‘Justice’ (HA!) of the Peace. Seems they, too, are “out of the norm”. Do you back the JoP?
Husband said, “mouse, we keep saying you’re entitled to your beliefs. You, otoh, keep telling us our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to hell because of them. Why don’t you believe in freedom of religion?”
Yes, I did. But you replied:
“The thing is…you claim to be a Christian. You say that “your church” supports what you are doing. I have a right to question that because I am a believer.”
You cannot (will not) see the difference. I say you are entitled to your beliefs. You say you are entitled to question mine. mouse, we are believers; we just believe different things. I do not question your beliefs “because I am a believer”. I say you are entitled to yours. You, otoh, say I am not entitled to mine, that they are ‘questionable’. Therein lies the difference. I believe in freedom of religion; you do not. It’s pretty clear.
“Don’t you believe that the Bible is Gods Word? “
The point that you refuse to understand isthis: It doesn’t matter if I (or anyone else) believes that the Bible is God’s Word – in a land that promises freedom of religion to all its citizens.
“you make this statement.
“Circular argument – my book is right because my book says it’s right.””
I only put what you seem to believe into a statement. You do seem to believe that the Bible is right because the Bible says it’s right.
“You are not defending Gods Word. Why?”
Because what God’s Word says or doesn’t say is irrelevant to whether or not gay citizens deserve equal rights before the (secular) laws, that’s why.
“How else do we know about Christ and what he did for us without the scriptures?”
What Christ did (or didn’t do) “for us” is likewise irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are many people of many faiths – both Christian and other than Christian – who are governed by the secular laws of the land. You cannot explain why your faith’s tenets should govern them. (And, btw, I am not diminishing Christ or His life and ministry nor His message. It simply is not relevant to the discussion at hand, no matter how much you wish it were.)
“Do you even believe that Christ is the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER?”
What I believe – and what you believe, too – is not relevant to a discussion of equal rights for gay people.
And what about the Great Commission?”"You say I am your enemy.”
I perceive you as one because you act like one.
Re: Husband said, “You don’t believe we should put the victims of incest to death. You don’t believe we should put disobedient children to death. You don’t believe eating shrimp is “an abomination”. And, I sincerely hope you don’t believe gay people should “surely be put to death”.”, you replied:
“I do not believe in the death penalty and I struggle with this issue scripturally.”
Hmm, in one breath you say you believe “ALL” Scripture and in the next you say you “struggle with” parts of it. Make up your mind.
“I do know about the law and obviously you do not.”
According to your beliefs. Big whup. I could say the exact same thing.
“You are not married according to God.”
According to your beliefs. Again, big whup. I’m not a member of your “Chruch”.

“We do allow people freedom of religion and I respect that.”
“Respect” does not include comparisons of loving spousal relationships to rape, child-molestation, beastiality, adultery, etc. You crap on other people’s religious freedoms and seem to insist we must all follow your religious tenets.
“That does not mean that I don’t think they are all wrong.”
What you “think” about other people’s faiths and their tenets/beliefs is irrelevant, especially if you, in fact, “respect” their right to their freedom of religion – which you clearly don’t, despite your hollow protestations to the contrary.
“We should do that today and stand up against evil.”
Calling another person’s faith (or their love) “evil” shows that you in fact do NOT “respect” other people’s faiths, tenets or their love.
Husband said, “I’m sure you believe that adultery is a “sin”. Fornication (i.e. sex outside of marriage – which STILL does not apply to married gay couples, btw) is a “sin”.
Yes, I did say that. But then you replied:
“So you don’t consider adultery sin either?”
So, I BOLDED the words I said to help you in your reading comprehension. They disprove your lie about me and what I believe. You continue to bear demonstrable false witness. It is no wonder you are not believed.
“You love to play the victim don’t you?”
Not as much as you like to victimize people.
“Sin is sin.”
True that. However you only condemn the marriages of some sinners. You seem perfectly willing to still allow murderers, rapists, thieves etc. to get married. If “SIN!!!” is so important to you, whey don’t you protest their right to marry? You bear false witness about god’s gay and lesbian children here all the time. That, too, is a sin. Yet we allow YOU to marry.

“Which has nothing to do with the fact I posted that you chose to respond to, namely: ““According to one religion, only 144,000 will actually be ‘taken up’ and, since you’ve had an abortion, mouse, I doubt you yourself will be among them.”” The point being that different religions believe different things.”
What religion would that be that says only 144,000 will make it? I quoted what Christ said about sin and forgiveness and eternal life. You won’t address those scriptures, why?
I had an abortion and I sinned against my God. But I repented and asked for forgiveness and Christ has promised me eternal life. This happened when I got saved. You can think what you want it does not matter; I can read for myself what Christ said. And it’s funny that not once have you quoted Christ on anything. Yes, religions believe different things…….but I believe Christ and what He said. You do NOT defend your faith in Christ very well because you seem to defend other faiths more than you do the one you claim to believe in.
Curious do you think Christ forgave the Apostle Paul? Do you think He forgave Moses, David, and the Disciples? Do you think He forgave the thief on the cross? And you say that He couldn’t forgive me. Show me the evidence in scriptures that my sin won’t be forgiven.
“Don’t/can’t you read? The part that says we should deny communion to the disabled (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should put disobedient children to death (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should put the victims of incest to death (do you believe that? I doubt it.), the part that says we should “surely’ put (what you think of as) homosexuals to death (you probably believe that), the part that says eating lobster is “an abomination”, etc”
And I talked to you about the law and you still don’t get it. You won’t address it either. Why? I again gave scriptures to back up what I said. If you want me to address scriptures, then post them from the Word.
I have asked and asked you to make a case for same sex marriage. You won’t provide scriptures. Show me where God condones two of the same sex in marriage. If you can’t do this, then any sex that would be going on between such people is sin.
Any case you make has to leave God out of it. If you are a Christian like you claim, how can you dismiss what God said about marriage?
“If we were in a court of law, your religious beliefs would never trump anyone’s Constitutional rights”
Anyone can pursue happiness and do it in all sorts of ways. Some of these ways are illegal by today’s society. Gay marriage has been illegal. You want it to become legal in all states. So do you have the right to deny other groups who are pursuing what they think happiness is? Group marriage, marriage or sex between adults and children. Would you support them trying to change laws as well? Let’s just change sexual accountability to 12 eh? Would you support that?
“If we were in a court of law, your religious beliefs would never trump anyone’s Constitutional rights. It wouldn’t matter – to a judge or to a jury – what you believe if I happen to believe otherwise. Both a judge and a jury would ask what relevance your theological beliefs are to a person who isn’t a member of your faith. They might even invoke the Equal Protections Clause of the Constitution, or maybe even the Full Faith & Credit Clause of the Constitution which guarantee equal treatment before the law – despite the fact that you think I’m a sinful heathen.”
Even our courts have a bias. Scotus had a bias and they used it to make abortion legal. Do you think that jurors don’t have a bias? Judges? Everyone has a bias towards issues. You love to play the victim don’t you? You are a hateful person I will say that.
You see your own Christian faith out and you ignore what God says. You won’t even address the scriptures for crying out loud. You stand on shaky ground scripturally and you have nothing to back up sex outside marriage. You can provide nothing to back same sex marriage up. And you do not care what God says that much is evident by the fact you do not care if the bible is classified as hate speech. You don’t care about free speech. You don’t care that should the hate crimes go through the bible might be censored. The Holy Book you are supposed to love that tells you what you need to live……you don’t give a crap about. You put yourself above the Word.
Do you want evidence, examples of what has happened in Canada? I can give you a lengthy list of cases and law that has happened as a result of the hate crimes legislation.
“According to your religion. Since I’m not a member of your religion, you can (as Kathy Grffin said) suck it.”
I state scripture you do not. And you have the gall to tell me it’s my opinion? LOL It is the Word of God. The Bible is God’s Word. He wrote it, inspired it and expects us to live by it. And you tell me I am hateful and you tell me to “suck it.”
“It’s “Scriptures”, capitalized, like Christ is. Has to do with respect for holiness apparently. Meanwhile, I didn’t say what you copy and past is terrible; I said your writing is terrible. And it is.”
Well excuse me. Why don’t you show that reverence towards what they actually say? Do you have a regard for holiness? If you do then why do you ignore them? Is spelling them correctly all you care about?
I am no author, writer and certainly make spelling errors. You just made one above. Also a sentence fragment. I think you spell paste……..with an e. Am I right? Or did you mean my actual past, which wouldn’t make a lot of sense because you used copy before it. LOL Then the sentence you wrote before that one is a phrase……. Did you mean to add an “It” before the “has to do”?
You are trying to change the focus off the case that you are losing. Make a case for marriage between two same sex couples and do it by the Scriptures. Notice I capitalized Scriptures.
If you say I am wrong, that I am not bright………….SHOW ME SCRIPTURALLY WHERE I AM IN ERROR.” Show me where God condones same sex marriage.
If you are that bright and you are right, this will not be hard for you to do. I look forward to the scriptures you will provide.

Your Name…….
“It does where I live. So your faith’s teachings are irrelevant here.”
Are you a Christian? If you are then what God says should be above what the State says. Would you be for slavery if the state said slavery was ok? Would you be for Sharia law if that was legal? You place the STATE above God that is if you claim to be a Christian. The Word says thou shalt not put any Gods before me………isn’t that what you are doing?
I am NOT bearing any false witness. I quote scripture from the Word of God. Show me scripturally where I am wrong. Show me the scriptures where it says I am lying.
“With one notable exception: ALL of those sinful people who do commit those sins are still allowed to marry. Heck, I’m pretty sure that the laws of the land will even still allow sinful you to marry, despite your myriad sins.”
What does that have to do with what we are talking about? Who does God say can marry? Show me scripturally where it says two same sexed people can marry. Make a case for same sex marriage and use the Word of God to do it. Sex outside marriage is sin. So if any heterosexual is having sex outside marriage they are sinning. Adultery is sin. Or do you also condone that sin as well?
“No. Group marriage is not what is being discussed, despite your wish to sidetrack us down that false road. (Besides, groups do not have rights in America; individuals do.)”
I think this has a lot to do with what we are talking about. I think you are not very open minded if you want to deny a person and a member of a group to marry if they so choose. Not very tolerant of you. Polygamy used to be practiced. Why not in America? You want rights, why deny theirs? I would think you of all people would feel their pain. No one’s rights would be impaired if they were adults and consented.
Husband said, “Husband said, “mouse, we keep saying you’re entitled to your beliefs. You, otoh, keep telling us our beliefs are wrong and we’re going to hell because of them. Why don’t you believe in freedom of religion?”
Husband is a liar. I never said that a gay was doomed to hell. He can’t post where I said this because I did not say it. This has nothing to do with salvation. I am showing you BASED ON THE BIBLE, where your beliefs are wrong. I challenged you to make another case for same sex marriage, and no one can. The case must be made from Gods Word, because everyone here claims to be Christian. If you were not a Christian and denied the Holiness of the Bible, then that would be a different case altogether.
Christians have the right to question other Christians on behavior. In fact we should do this to keep someone accountable. We are told that it is ok to make righteous judgments. Would you like the scriptures that back that up?
I asked you if you believed that the Bible is God’s Word. You avoided answering this question. Why? Do you or don’t you?
“Because what God’s Word says or doesn’t say is irrelevant to whether or not gay citizens deserve equal rights before the (secular) laws, that’s why.”
This comment says it all. You do not care as long as you get what YOU WANT, even if it goes against Gods Word. Secular laws have nothing to do with it and you know it.
You don’t believe the Word because you can find no evidence for same sex marriage, so you dismiss it.
This comment also speaks volumes. “What Christ did (or didn’t do) “for us” is likewise irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are many people of many faiths – both Christian and other than Christian – who are governed by the secular laws of the land. You cannot explain why your faith’s tenets should govern them. (And, btw, I am not diminishing Christ or His life and ministry nor His message. It simply is not relevant to the discussion at hand, no matter how much you wish it were.)”
What He did ALWAYS relates to EVERYTHING WE DO, that is if you put Him first and love him. What He did is always relevant to any discussion.
“You crap on other people’s religious freedoms and seem to insist we must all follow your religious tenets.’
No I don’t. Would you be saying this to a Muslim who told you that you were wrong according to their book? Or do you just hate Christians? When in American history has same sex marriage been recognized? Why do you think it hasn’t?
“What you “think” about other people’s faiths and their tenets/beliefs is irrelevant, especially if you, in fact, “respect” their right to their freedom of religion – which you clearly don’t, despite your hollow protestations to the contrary.”
It is to me. You certainly throw your two cents into the discussion. So let me get this straight. It’s wrong for me to question your beliefs and faith, but it’s ok if you question mine.
“Calling another person’s faith (or their love) “evil” shows that you in fact do NOT “respect” other people’s faiths, tenets or their love.”
Did I say you were evil? I did not. I said the actions of sex outside marriage ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE is sin. If I am wrong, show me based on scripture. I do not respect sin whoever is doing it, including myself. Why would I think going against God is good?
“True that. However you only condemn the marriages of some sinners. You seem perfectly willing to still allow murderers, rapists, thieves etc. to get married. If “SIN!!!” is so important to you, whey don’t you protest their right to marry? You bear false witness about god’s gay and lesbian children here all the time. That, too, is a sin. Yet we allow YOU to marry”
Not true. Like I said sin is sin whoever is doing it, married or not married. Why can’t you get this? God states what marriage is, I simply follow what He says. It is scriptural that one man and one woman marry. Not two women, not two men. If I am wrong then SHOW ME SCRIPTURALLY WERE I HAVE IT WRONG. I am not bearing false anything. I am simply posting WHAT GOD SAYS. You’ve never once cited SCRIPTURE FROM THE BIBLE.

You don’t care that should the hate crimes go through the bible might be censored.
Please demonstrate this with reference to specific parts of the bill and links to unbiased, reliable sources. If you will not or cannot do so, and do not retract the statement, you are a liar.

So let me get this straight. It’s wrong for me to question your beliefs and faith, but it’s ok if you question mine.
I don’t think he’ll say it, but I’ll come right out and say it: Yes. 100%, indubitably, yes.
Your beliefs and faith are oppressive. Your beliefs and faith are what made women second-class citizens until the 1970s (and we still haven’t achieved full sexual equality, the church of course being the last holdout) and your beliefs and faith are what stand in the way of full citizenship for LGBT people. People of your beliefs and faith are the ones kicking their gay and lesbian kids out of their own homes for being who they are. People of your beliefs and faith are the ones telling LGBT individuals that their love should be less valid than heterosexuals’ love in the eyes of the law. People of your beliefs and faith are the ones beating and killing LGBT individuals for nothing more than being who they are.
Your interlocutor’s beliefs and faith are doing nothing of the sort to people like you. Despite the pathetic persecution complex of morally-weak right-wing “Christians,” there is no sense in which you are in any way oppressed or persecuted, nor is there anyone with any political viability in this country who seriously advocates your oppression.
Put quite simply: You are being judged because you judge. Your interlocutor is not judging, therefore he is not subjecting himself to similar judgment.
If you don’t want your beliefs and faith questioned, I recommend joining in the effort to get your house in order. Repent of your bigotry against LGBT individuals, for it is a deep sin. Every time you type – or speak – bigotry against LGBT individuals, you spit in the face of God and insult Jesus Christ by your association with His name. Repent of your bigotry, change your views, and work to make the situation right.
Don’t judge, lest you be judged. I think I remember a pretty important guy saying that once.

“Your beliefs and faith are oppressive”
That is your opinion. Anyone who does not get their way could say they are being discriminated against. Laws are supposed to protect and preserve society.
Have same sex marriages ever been recognized in America? No. Why? Why do you think that most countries in the world never recognized same sex marriages? Full equality means letting everyone get their way; letting everyone do their own thing.
If same sex marriages are adopted, one will never again be able to state that a child needs a father and mother. This like the certain passages in the Bible will be discriminatory and could be classified as hate speech. You say it will never happen…..yea right. You even admitted that you think I am hateful because of my views. You can judge me, but I can’t judge you. How fair is that? You want me SILENCED. You want laws that say I can’t have free speech. But you want free speech for yourself.
There are countries that restrict what you can say concerning homosexuality. Many pastors have been jailed in these countries for simply standing on the Word, by expressing free speech.
Don’t you believe that ALL crimes are hate crimes? Aren’t all crimes happening to human beings? The proposed hate crimes laws will give certain people more rights. This is unconstitutional. They will give rights that will trump free speech/religious rights. Free speech for some people will end.
“Ake Green, pastor of a Pentecostal congregation in Kalmar, Sweden, was sentenced to one month in prison on a charge of inciting hatred against homosexuals. Pastor Green was prosecuted for his sermon in a January hearing, where he was found guilty of “hate speech against homosexuals” for a sermon preached in 2003.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1185545/posts
“People of your beliefs and faith are the ones telling LGBT individuals that their love should be less valid than heterosexuals’ love in the eyes of the law. People of your beliefs and faith are the ones beating and killing LGBT individuals for nothing more than being who they are.”
You don’t get it either. This is not that hard. I quote Christ from the Word, the Scriptures. You think that I am the one who came up with these ideas. I follow what Christ has to say, and He does NOT CONDONE SAME SEX MARRIAGE.
Make a case scripturally for same sex marriage. Show me using scripture where I am wrong. No one here can do it, why don’t you try. Show me using the OT or the NT and make a case for the marriage between two of the same sex. Show me just one same sexed couple in the entire Bible who was married. I never said that same sexed couples could not love. I am talking about SEX. I believe sex is a choice. It is sin to have sex outside marriage so if God does not recognize same sex marriage then he does not condone the sex between them.
You say we are hateful and cruel. Now who is judging? How many homosexuals are killed by Christians each year in America? Are more killed than women who are abused by their husbands? Are more killed than those killed by drunk drivers? Which groups needs more protection? Ask Jeff Curleys parents about crime statistics.
“If you don’t want your beliefs and faith questioned, I recommend joining in the effort to get your house in order. Repent of your bigotry against LGBT individuals, for it is a deep sin. Every time you type – or speak – bigotry against LGBT individuals, you spit in the face of God and insult Jesus Christ by your association with His name. Repent of your bigotry, change your views, and work to make the situation right.
“Don’t judge, lest you be judged. I think I remember a pretty important guy saying that once.”
I do not care if you challenged me, feel free. I am challenging you to making a case for same sex marriage. Give me the scriptures. But if you think that you are the only one who has free speech, who can question a belief or idea or lifestyle……then you are the INTOLERANT, one. I repent of sin against God when I sin. I do not try to skate over my actions. This is what is going on here. We have people who want to justify what God calls SIN. And sin is clearly defined in the Bible. Sex outside marriage is sin for those in heterosexual and homosexual relationships.
I am following the Word and honoring God. Holy Matrimony is NOT merely a contract or a conscious decision. It is a Covenant between God, a man and a woman. The fact is, no society has survived in greatness that has sanctioned homosexuality and same sex marriage. No amount of legal dealings will ever obtain legitimacy for wrong marriage. And wrong marriage can’t buy you legitimacy especially with God.
Now show me my error but do it using Gods Word. The Word never changes, it will always remain the same, even if society changes.
This is what Christ said, “For this cause shall a MAN leave his FATHER AND MOTHER, and shall be joined unto his WIFE, and they two shall be ONE flesh.” Ephesians 5:31
You have the gall to use this scripture…… “Don’t judge, lest you be judged”
What are you doing? You are judging me aren’t you? This is why hate crimes is so wrong. You prove that by what you say here. We have every right to judge actions. I am judging actions not hearts.
I will continue to stand on the Word, no matter what happens to me legally. We know who wins in the end.

That is your opinion. Anyone who does not get their way could say they are being discriminated against.
And if they have a case to say they’re being discriminated against, let them make it. Thus far, you haven’t.
Laws are supposed to protect and preserve society.
That’s one of the functions of law. Another is to protect and preserve the rights of individuals. Another still is to ensure that every person has equal protection under the law. The latter two purposes – and, I’d argue, the purpose you outline as well – are not served by the enshrinement of marriage discrimination in law.
If same sex marriages are adopted, one will never again be able to state that a child needs a father and mother. This like the certain passages in the Bible will be discriminatory and could be classified as hate speech. You say it will never happen…..yea right.
That’s all you’ve got? “Yea[h] right” and some guy in Sweden, a state which doesn’t enshrine freedom of speech and freedom of religion in the highest law of its land? If you want to be taken seriously where adults are having a reasoned conversation, you need to present evidence for your assertions. If you can’t demonstrate using reliable, unbiased sources (and freerepublic, that cesspool of right-wing conspiracy theory and hate, counts as neither reliable nor unbiased, for future reference) that a proposal actually on the table in the United States of America would do any of the things you mentioned, intellectual honesty demands that you retract your assertions.
You want me SILENCED. You want laws that say I can’t have free speech. But you want free speech for yourself.
No. I would never dream of using the law to silence you, and if the law was actually being used to actually silence you, I would stand up in your defense. I would hope your conscience would silence you instead, but I suppose that if you aren’t convinced now that hateful and bigoted views like yours are directly responsible for this nation’s pandemic of antigay violence, only the Holy Spirit can change your heart. I pray the Spirit does just that.
The proposed hate crimes laws will give certain people more rights. This is unconstitutional. They will give rights that will trump free speech/religious rights. Free speech for some people will end.
They will? Where? Please show me in the law, with links to the proposed law, exactly where free speech and religious rights are trumped by the hate crimes legislation. Unless, of course, you’re claiming that it’s free speech and a religious right to beat someone to death for being gay – in which case, I’d be more than happy to restrict that version of free speech and so-called religious rights.
Make a case scripturally for same sex marriage. Show me using scripture where I am wrong. No one here can do it, why don’t you try.
Why should I? Is Scripture the law of the land in the United States of America? Please point out to me exactly where in the Constitution of the United States the input of Christ or the Bible is sought.
But if you think that you are the only one who has free speech, who can question a belief or idea or lifestyle……then you are the INTOLERANT, one.
No, I don’t think I’m the only one who has free speech. Feel free to question the morality of homosexuality all day long. You have that right, and I would never dream of taking it away from you. But don’t enshrine your moral beliefs into law by supporting marriage discrimination. Don’t stand up in defense of those who would kick their gay and lesbian children out of their own homes. And above all, don’t utter even a peep in defense of anyone who acts violently in any way toward any lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person. When your beliefs are oppressive, they are going to be scrutinized more strongly… it’s that simple.
The fact is, no society has survived in greatness that has sanctioned homosexuality and same sex marriage.
You mean, other than the Greeks and the Roman Empire?

“Another still is to ensure that every person has equal protection under the law.”
And the Hate Crimes would do away with what you mention here. It affords certain people and groups MORE protection. This as I said is unconstitutional and would be bad law.
“If you want to be taken seriously where adults are having a reasoned conversation, you need to present evidence for your assertions.”
You don’t do this either when making a case scripturally for same sex marriage. Husband and Your Name have left the discussion because when push came to shove they could not make the case using scriptures for same sex marriage. The source….the Bible. The topic of this thread is religious, so we are not talking really about a secular case for same sex marriage. Husband and Your Name both claim to follow Christ so that is why I asked them to use the Word to make a case.
“No. I would never dream of using the law to silence you, and if the law was actually being used to actually silence you, I would stand up in your defense.”
It would take away the right for pastors to preach out of certain books of the bible particularly Leviticus. This will happen like it did in Canada.
The hate crimes bill is a direct attack on free speech. It is an attack on Christianity and all religions that talk about homosexual sex as being wrong. This legislation passes and the Bible will be classified as hate literature. You have no way of proving that it wont happen. And it is to dangerous to take the chance that it would. It’s already happened in Canada and Sweden and it’s happening here as well. Anyone saying anything negative about homosexuals will face imprisonment or fines. That includes pastors of churches. No Bible…..no Leviticus. The bible……hate speech.
It directly violates the fundamental Constitutional protections of equal justice by promoting unequal justice under the law. It creates a two-tier system of justice where some “victims” are more equal than others. This unequal justice makes one motivation for assaulting a person more heinous than another.
Person “A” kills a homosexual because they hate them.
Person “B” kills a fellow gang member.
Person “C” kills a drug dealer.
Person “D” kills his wife.
Which one of these would get the worst sentence and would get more protection by the government? Person A .
Why is this fair?
What happened to free speech, freedom to worship? Should we outlaw, picketing, marching just because someone might be offended? What the passage of this law would also mean is that if you are pro-life, you would NOT BE ABLE TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST ABORTION. You would not be able to use the term killer, murderer to describe their actions.
Look at California. Under the new law, SB 1234, signed into law on 9-22-04, individuals can claim that someone expressing their deeply held beliefs, whether political or religious, presents an “intimidating threat.
A section of that law reads….
“Speech alone is not sufficient to support an action (under this law) except upon showing that that speech itself threatens violence against a specific person or group of persons: and the person or group of persons against whom the threat is directed reasonably fears that, because of the speech, violence will be committed against them or their property and that person threatening violence had the apparent ability to carry out the threat.”
I marchat abortion mills. I do it peacefully, but according to this law any woman walking in could consider what we say and do a threat. You can kill pro-life work, anti-abortion work goodbye if hate crimes legislation is passed.
Under the First Amendment any group has the RIGHT TO EXPRESS ITS VIEWS, and try to persuade others of its stance on a moral issue. WE have just as much right as you do who might oppose us.
I did some research last night on crimes against groups.
In 2007: 1,460 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:
• 59.2 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual bias.
• 24.8 percent were reported as anti-homosexual bias.
• 12.6 percent were prompted by an anti-female homosexual bias.
• 1.8 percent was the result of an anti-heterosexual bias.
• 1.6 percent was classified as anti-bisexual bias.
http://gaylife.about.com/od/hatecrimes/a/statistics.htm
1,460 hate crimes out of a population of over 280 million people, is that a lot? These are offenses and not necessarily murders. We have more pregnant women getting killed by their husbands than this. Yet a murder against a homosexual would bring a bigger sentence than one against a spouse.
We have a new tolerance today. This new tolerance is that I have to ACCEPT those values, lifestyles I reject as absolutely equal to and valid as my own. I do not want to hire a cross dresser to work in my business. But I am FORCED TO HIRE ONE If I live in California. Forced or go to jail and pay a huge fine. If you do not accept wrong today as right, you get in trouble.
I’ll give you an example.
In New York City medical schools, effective 2002 every student is forced to participate in on the job abortion training and MUST perform abortions, regardless of their religious beliefs. If you fail to participate in this you do NOT GRADUATE.
Kathryn Jean Lopez, “Bloomberg’s Gift: Mandatory Abortion Training Arrives in NYC Public Hospitals,” National Review Online, 1 July 2002, 1:00P.M.
They say things like this will never happen but they do. Abortion was made legal ONLY for the tough cases, rape, incest health of the mother. Today you can kill on demand and for any reason.
If the Hate Crimes goes through free speech will end for some many people.
It’s very common to hear Christians called intolerant, by those who claim to be tolerant. It’s happening right now here on this thread. Have you ever noticed how some of the most intolerant people are those who yell the loudest for tolerance? Their definition of free speech is that you can have complete free speech IF you agree with their views and jump on their bandwagon.
If you speak out against homosexuality you’re being intolerant, you’re called a hater a bigot. Those who call you intolerant want to make laws that force; that make you have to be tolerant at least in the eyes of the law.
The homosexual agenda…would like to shut down all churches that do not accept them as clergy. And with the ACLU helping them, it’s becoming easier and easier. They will stop at nothing. It won’t matter if your church stands on scripture, they won’t tolerate this Christian worldview. Then they will try to get the Bible classified as a hate book……because of its intolerance towards gays. It’s already happening all over the world and in our country.
This is why the Hate Crimes is so dangerous to free speech. Acceptance of ALL views doesn’t work because tolerance is so closely linked with truth. If objective truth exists, as religion maintains, then we must seek and seriously discuss it despite our differing worldviews. But… if objective truth doesn’t exist as secularism maintains, then relativism obliterates genuine differences of perspective. If no universal standards exist to which opposing parties can appeal, then a struggle or war is as likely a result as is tolerance. I believe the values that made us great are diminishing.
“I would hope your conscience would silence you instead, but I suppose that if you aren’t convinced now that hateful and bigoted views like yours are directly responsible for this nation’s pandemic of antigay violence, only the Holy Spirit can change your heart. I pray the Spirit does just that.”
God determines what my conscience feels. If He says something is wrong and I do it, I feel bad. But I am not physically hurting; I do not hate anyone here. I have proven and shown why I believe the way that I do and I have provided a case based on His Word, why sex outside marriage is sin.
This nation for the most part treats gays wonderfully. We have television shows, stars who are embraced for being gay. WHERE IS THIS VIOLENCE? I noticed you did not mention Jeff Curly.
The fact is you can’t make a case and base it on the bible for same sex unions. You jumped into the discussion after Husband and Your Name said it could be made. But they have all but disappeared because they can’t do it.
Do you claim to be a Christian? If so make the case using scripture.
What does the majority of America want? What is in the best intrest of society?
“You mean, other than the Greeks and the Roman Empire?”
And look what happened to them. They fell.

“What religion would that be that says only 144,000 will make it?”
mous4e, if you don’t even know that, you’re far more ignorant than I originally feared. Do try ‘The Google’ sometimes. It’s a whole library at your fingertips. (Presuming you know what a library is.)
“You won’t address those scriptures, why?”
Because your version of Scripture is irrelevant under the Constitution, that’s why.
“you seem to defend other faiths “
Well, yeah, that’s what freedom of religion means.
“And you say that He couldn’t forgive me.”
I never ever said that, mouse. This lying habit of yours – it’s hardly ‘Christian’. In fact, I do believe it’s a SIN.
“Show me the evidence in scriptures that my sin won’t be forgiven.”
Go thou and do likewise, mouse.
“If you want me to address scriptures, then post them from the Word.”
Meaning either you’re too lazy to look them up for yourself, or you’ve never given those Scirptures much/any thought. You don’t believe a single one of them. You do not practice them, though the Bible (which you seem to clearly idolize) commands you to do them. Go look them up yourself.
You keep bringing up irrelevant things (“Group marriage, marriage or sex between adults and children.”) and expect them to be addressed. That you believe committed love between consenting adults is the equivalent or even comparable to child-molestation shows you are no Christian. This is not love; it is hate. It is hate because it is not true. Lying is a sin. Stop it.
In fact, since you keep questioining my faith, I think I’ll leave it. There. Does the fact of your lying witness actually drove someone away from God make you happy?
“When in American history has same sex marriage been recognized?”
Since 2004. In 6 States. Figures you wouldn’t know even that. Love sentence fragments. Really, I do.
“If same sex marriages are adopted, one will never again be able to state that a child needs a father and mother.”
This is just so much pure and utter bullsh!t. Per usual.
“And the Hate Crimes would do away with what you mention here. It affords certain people and groups MORE protection.”
This is rich, considering that the Hate Crimes (ahem, Bill) has religion as one of its protected classes. And, as we all know, religion is a choice. That means YOU, mousy, get MORE protection too.
Trust me, I have NOT “left the discussion”. I simply will not make a religious case for same-sex marriage (despite the fact that my religion embraces it – which doesn’t matter to you anyway) since it is secular laws that govern all citizens. I simply refuse to stay silent in the face of such ignorance, bigotry and hatred, especially when it’s done in the name of Jesus. So, per you wish, I will no longer describe myself as Christian. If you’re any example, I wouldn’t want to be one. It’s so ugly and so against what Christ Himself taught.

“What religion would that be that says only 144,000 will make it?”
Avoiding the question altogether. I know exactly what that scripture says. If only 144,000 make it, then what Jesus said was a lie now wasn’t it? In all of humanity, just 144,000?
Jehovah Witnesses believes that theology. That was what I was getting at.
You will and refuse to use the scriptures to make a case for same sex marriage because no scriptures exist. You know as well as I do what and who God instituted for marriage. The topic of this thread is, Religious Voices for Gay Rights at the National Equality March. This has to do with religion particularly Christianity. You claim to be a Christian and you say that God says that it is also ok for same sex couples to marry. If you are a Christian, then you MUST live how God commands you to live whether you agree or not. I am and have been asking you to make a case to show me where God says that I am wrong about marriage and you are right. I do not care what our laws are. This is NOT A SECULAR DISCUSSION. Read the title of the thread again, RELIGIOUS VOICES. You said Christianity is your religion. Are you saying that you do not believe everything in the Bible to be right? If this discussion had nothing to do with faith and God and religion you would have a point especially if you didn’t claim to be a believer in Christ.
It’s odd that you point out the scripture about the remnant 144,000 quickly but you avoid the chapters where God talks about who can marry.
“You keep bringing up irrelevant things (“Group marriage, marriage or sex between adults and children.”) and expect them to be addressed. That you believe committed love between consenting adults is the equivalent or even comparable to child-molestation shows you are no Christian. This is not love; it is hate. It is hate because it is not true. Lying is a sin. Stop it.”
No I do not. You keep avoiding them because they go to the heart of the matter and the heart is being obedient to God and His Word. Going against God is sin and sin is sin. I am not comparing anything, it’s all the same. Sex between the same sexes is wrong, it is ungodly and it is sin. Love does not make the sin better. THE SCRIPTURES CALL IT SIN. I do not hate you but you can think whatever you want. I remember when someone told me that because I had an abortion that I killed someone. I hated them at the time but soon realized what they were trying to do and I am glad they did it. It turned my life around.
“In fact, since you keep questioning my faith, I think I’ll leave it. There. Does the fact of your lying witness actually drove someone away from God make you happy?”
I question your actions, not your heart, not your faith in God. But you hate me so much you cant see it. I am sure you are a sweet and loving person. You probably never hurt anyone and you are well liked by everyone. But that does not get you into Heaven, it does not save you. Loving God, being obedient to His Word is what is important. The walk and talk have to be aligned.
And you can’t put the blame on me. If you leave or ditch Christ, you make the decision. I am NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANYONES SALVATION. You will stand alone before God all on your own and you will not be able to blame anyone. We will answer for every sin that we have ever committed. God loves you but does not like when you sin. He came for the weak, the lost, and the sick. He came for sinners because we couldn’t make it alone. I need him because I am a sinner.
“Since 2004. In 6 States. Figures you wouldn’t know even that. Love sentence fragments. Really, I do”
Cut me down because of grammar, go figure. What’s next?
As I said, whether the United States recognizes SSM is not the debate or discussion here. The debate is about SSM and religiosity. Does God recognize it? I believe that in the future SSM will be recognized all over the country. As a result our country will suffer and children will suffer.
“This is rich, considering that the Hate Crimes (ahem, Bill) has religion as one of its protected classes. And, as we all know, religion is a choice. That means YOU, mousy, get MORE protection too.”
It is so sad that you feel now that you have to start really being hateful by calling me names. This shows a lot.
I stand by what I said about the hate crimes bill. It will afford gays more rights and it will silence those that speak out about sin, particularly sex outside marriage. The passage of this bill will devastate society in the long run, it will affect us all.
You’re in a large boat hoping to get to the other side of the lake. A man insists that he has the right to drill a hole on his side of the boat and demands tolerance from the group. If they don’t like it they can go to the other side; that what he does has no bearing on what they do. The water begins to seep into the boat and everyone is aware that the actions of one can affect them all.
The policy guide of the ACLU calls for the legalization of polygamy, stating, “The ACLU believes that criminal and civil laws prohibiting or penalizing the practice of plural marriage violate constitutional protections for freedom of expression and association, freedom of religion, and privacy for personal relationships among consenting adults.”
Alan Sears and Craig Osten, The Homosexual Agenda:Exposing the Principal Threat to Religious Freedom Today (Nashville: Broadman and holman, 2003), 52.
George Dent writing in [I]The Journal of Law and Politics[/I], says that once same-sex marriage is affirmed, then other forms of “marriage” will quickly be affirmed as well, such as polygamy, endogamy and child marriage.
Laws will change and people will be forced to tolerate that which they feel is wrong behavior. People will have to practice their faith at home, or underground.
It will immediately affect churches all over the country. Same-sex couples will be able to marry and groups as well. But who will marry them? Will churches be forced to do it? What will happen then to Churches that refuse to perform such unions? Churches that refuse will find that their tax-exempt status will be revoked and endless lawsuits will bankrupt churches all over the country……..all part of the gay agenda. You want quotes from militant gay groups…..I’d be happy to post them that affirm this is true.
When same sex marriages are legalized, religious freedom will have to give way to Constitutional law. The law will state that all people have a constitutional right to marriage, in whatever gender arrangement they desire, the church will be breaking the law if they refuse to guarantee these rights.
The fact is SSM would change society’s entire concept of parenthood. Because a gay couple could not biologically produce children of their own, they would have to literally rent wombs and more and more children would be denied knowing their biological parents. Buying and selling children then would be the commonplace. These kids would be denied either a father or a mother. I think children deserve both and so does God.
“Trust me, I have NOT “left the discussion”. I simply will not make a religious case for same-sex marriage (despite the fact that my religion embraces it – which doesn’t matter to you anyway) since it is secular laws that govern all citizens. I simply refuse to stay silent in the face of such ignorance, bigotry and hatred, especially when it’s done in the name of Jesus. So, per you wish, I will no longer describe myself as Christian. If you’re any example, I wouldn’t want to be one. It’s so ugly and so against what Christ Himself taught.”
You won’t make a case, because you CAN’T. The scriptures are not there to make one for SSM for sex outside marriage. The ones that are in the Word show exactly what God said should be, marriage between one man and one woman. You talk about what Christ taught and seem to think you know……WHAT DID CHRIST TEACH ABOUT MARRIAGE?
Scriptures are there however that shows Gods Grace to all sinners. All you need to do is ask. It is your choice whether to follow Christ or not, it certainly is not mine.
I am not perfect that is for sure. But I thank God for those that love me enough to show me scripturally when I sin, even when it hurts my feelings. They don’t just tell me, they SHOW ME. This is about love. Loving someone enough to share the Word with them no matter what they get in return.
The whole thing is about who we put first in our life.’
Nothing anyone could say could make me deny Christ, I love Him that much. If you could deny Christ that quickly just because someone said something you disagreed with, I wonder if you ever had Him to begin with?

Hello. And Bye.