Dobson attacks Obama on his radio show today

Agreed, Michelle.

The city of God and the city of man are separate kingdoms. God's ordained human government to execute temporal justice, and we should vote for people for office who will uphold justice and keep government's power within its proper sphere.

We have got to eschew the temptation to try to force the kingdom of God on a world dead in sin through the force of law. Law doesn't regenerate hearts dead in sin! It can only serve to illustrate our sinfulness before a holy God and our helplessness, pointing us to Christ.

I wish Dobson, et al., would spend more time preaching Christ and Him crucified and less time manipulating an imaginary political chessboard.

"God hates divorce." So then I should not vote for a divorced and remarried person as president.

God hates sin, so I should not vote for a person who has committed sin for any office.

These two statements show how impossible it is to elect a "Perfect Man" for president of the United States or any office. We have to make compromises every day of our lives.

While I may hate abortions, I have to make a choice on many levels and that may mean that a pro-choice candidate is the better of the two. It was the last time.

Bob Dole and John McCain where better canidates in 2000 and 2004 but the people were fooled into beleiving in G. W. Bush. Our mistake then, let's hope we don't make another.

Amen to what Obama said.

pro-choice candidate is the better of the two. It was the last time.

That's refreshing ...

So then I should not vote for a divorced and remarried person as president.

Didn't hamper Reagan with the Religious Right in the least ...

Moonshadow, a few years ago I was driving up I-75 in Georgia, in the heartland of the so-called Christian right. I saw two billboards in the same lettering side by side that I thought summed up the local culture. One billboard read in bold letters "Jesus Saves!" and other listed hours and an address under a caption in the same style reading "Totally Nude!"

I agree with the content of the statement, but I have to dismiss it because it's completely manufactured to deflect criticism.

Neither faith nor spirituality has any significant impact on anything he thinks. He's a totally secularized college professor who joined an inner city church solely for street cred, and then threw them under the bus when they became a liability. His interpretations of the Bible are so loose that he might as well be quoting Moby Dick. He thinks the weakest members of our society, the unborn and the elderly, should be killed when they become inconvenient. (http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/4/6/155527/9837)

Not. Buying. It.

Another way to interpret Obama's words would be: "You religious people haven't yet given a totally atheistic argument for what you want, so sit down and shut up". If we WERE to come up with totally secular reasons for everything, he'd probably say "Since there's a secular argument for everything, why talk about God at all?"

Way to win my vote, "Barry"

I agree, Obama is basically right when he says that this is a post-Christian culture, to whatever extent it was a Christian nation before.

He's ironically hilarious in his other statements on religion in the same speeches (coming from the church he does) but he's right about that, at least.

Dobson's church, the Church of the Nazarene, subscribes to the notion of entire sanctification, that is that some Christians can reach a state whereby they are so entirely sanctified that they do not sin, but live perfectly holy lives on this earth.

That is a fruitcake read of Scripture right there, and one historically rejected by other Christian traditions, particularly the Reformed.

Contraception handles the consequences of sex ...

For your own sake I hope you aren't relying on that as a personal practice.

It's a member of the NAE ... 'though perhaps they just take anybody?

More or less.

Tertius, a relative of mine joined the Church of the Nazarene and I did not hear from him for over 10 years. Thereafter, he left his wife, started....I have to choose an appropriate word for this forum....acting as a marketing representative for a provider of sexual services whom he then beat nearly to death in a methamphetamine-induced rage. I then heard from again when he called from the jail asking for bail money. Imagine my surprise to learn he leads an entirely sanctified life. If I had only known that before I turned down the request for bail....

Could someone tell me what the Reformed position is on the OT dietary laws, etc.? I have my own read of Scripture but I am seeking to learn the Reformed position on this. Thanks.

Dobson's rant is a perfect illustration of what Obama was talking about. Yet he is such an ideologue any more that he can't see it.

It's Dobson, in fact, who has the "fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution" and I consider his disapproval a seal ,of approval from people who clearly understand both the positive and negative power of religion in the public square.

Obama urged his listeners to read the Bible. Dobson would rather his listeners simply accept the Dobson intepreptation of Scripture.

I suggest that Dobson read James Madison, the father of the Constitution. But I'm afraid he will dismiss this Founding Father as a "fruitcake."

Which makes Dobson the *perfect* foil for Obama. This was scripted: Dobson took the bait.

Check this out if you think Dobson doesn't know his own crap stinks:

http://www.jamesdobsondoesntspeakforme.com/

One of the reasons that evangelicals have voted Republican when progressive policies are clearly in their own best interest is this conflict of the absolute authority of their faith vs. the pleuralistic ideas of the Democratic Party. It is a complicated dilemma: if our God is always right, how can someone else's God be right too?! The dual ideas of human faith and humane governance can be disturbingly hard to reconcile, especially for those who have been taught to ignore anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

Last night at an Obama meet-up party here in conservative, rural East Texas, I heard people from all races, socioeconomic levels and walks of life say they are supporting Barak Obama because he is smart, intelligent, rational, makes sense, supports science, supports education, talks straight, understands the world. I was overjoyed to think that the anti-intellectualism, religious intolerance and rabid nationalism of the Bush administration might be coming to an end.

My own work, InSpiritry, is based on the ideas of community (unity with God, Nature, self, humanity), compassion (caring enough to act for others), creativity (seeking new ways), collaboration (leveraging diversity), consilience (the unity of all knowledge), courage (strength of character) and celebration (gratitude and hope). Obama and other Democratic candidates offer America leadership based on an open embrace of all those ideas.

The task of putting our faith into practice rather than using it as a toll of exclusion is our most important work Let's each try to help the faithful in this country see things from a God's eye view and recognize the values we have in common: kindness, family, children, health, hard work, sharing, education, Nature, research, the elderly, etc. I believe this is our chance to make God--every God--proud.

"Dobson's church, the Church of the Nazarene ... one historically rejected by other Christian traditions

It's a member of the NAE ... 'though perhaps they just take anybody?"

They're not the only ones who hold to this doctrine. There are quite a few people preaching this doctrine. If I'm not mistaken, I think Bill Bright was an advocate as well.

I think Bill Bright was an advocate as well.

And he and Dobson were close friends ...

All his years in ministry, Bright chose to live in relative poverty but he fell from grace with evangelicals when he undertook a public fast. http://www.mtio.com/articles/bissar58.htm

Fasting isn't a public exhibition - Matt. 6:16-18.

----

Acts 10 has nothing to do with eating! How embarrassing for you! Read verse 17 and 34. Acts 15:20, 29 does have to do with eating - "abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled ..."

"Fortunately for the Republic, no one has ever taken him [Dobson]seriously."

If only that were true, Charles. If only that were true. I know too many people who's lives were ruined by people following Dobson's teachings "seriously".

Tisk tisk tisk...

A lot of folks that see legal grounds for abortion would never opt to have one and frown on it. A lot of folks who have blown hot air against abortion would never consider adopting.

The problem with puritanical thought is not realizing that outlawing something doesn't make it go away. Prohibition of alcohol was an abysmal failure.

The Old Testament actually prescribes abortion in the case that a wife hasn't been faithful. The reason that this is mentioned is that things like abortion, drugs, prostitution, etc. are part of the flawed human experience, and they're even in the Bible.

We need to understand that this flawed experience is something we must acknowledge. Only after acknowledging our flawed experience and working with it can we bring God's reality.

Legislating morality doesn't work. We can work on ourselves, become a likeness, and shine Godly love.

In fact, many of the folks who'd disagree with the above part of the post would be the first to state that we are completely fallen. I'd prefer the notion that our earthly experience is more ambivalent and ambiguous.

And yes, I'd like to see heaven on earth in which no pregnacies end in termination and all kids are wanted.

Forcing women to have back alley abortions isn't exactly compassionate. And the condemnation of single mothers has gotta end if conservative blow-hards wanna be taken seriously.

Most important, as far as abortion is concerned, unless there's a massive adoption drive for minority babies, crack babies, AIDS babies, mentally impaired babies, etc., abortion will be a reality whether it's outlawed or not. The legislative powers of the State don't work towards complete enforcement.

And things like the death penalty have been pretty poor at stopping violent crime.

Since Dobson hasn't started a massive adoption program with his billion dollar morality gig and he's completely distorting Obama's statements I'm gonna put this web address back up:

http://www.jamesdobsondoesntspeakforme.com/

My personal experience is that of having been very limited in job opportunities because of my Puritan outlook. But that does not mean the Puritans were wrong.

Especially the Old Testament Psalms speak of whole nations bowing before King Jesus (Psalm 2, for example). Democracy is not Biblically mandated, and democracies can quickly turn into dictatorships or oligarchies in times of crisis.

The Scottish Covenanter vision of having the State as well as the Church bow before the authority of the Bible still applies.

"The Scottish Covenanter vision of having the State as well as the Church bow before the authority of the Bible still applies. "

This only works with a nation that isn't pluralistic like ours. But it still does not make the nation a Christian nation. There isn't one because the Lord's kingdom is not of this world. Our mission isn't to govern ourselves (Romans 13 speaks of a secular government that we are to subject ourselves to) but to make disciples, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

I'm responding to Michelle McG's post at 2:43 this afternoon.

Here I become autobiographical. For over 20 years I was in the United States Army and Army Reserve and was a member of the Reformed Presbyterian (Covenanter) church. I tried to work out serving in a pluralistic military with being in a church who emphasizes the Sovereignty of God to such a degree that they don't associate much with non-Christians. (The historic Covenanter position was that because the U. S. Constitution is not explicitly Christian, swearing loyalty to it, as I did in the Army, was being disloyal to Christ.)

But I am not happy with the Westminster Seminary which takes "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord" and says that applies only to the church in our dispensation. Since Christ is pure, and His church may be ethnically pluralistic but not pluralistic in doctrine, Christianity becomes pulling souls out of a pluralistic society into the church to wait for the rapture, or whatever.

If you are a-millenial Psalm 2 has an application to governments today.