Reformed Chicks Blabbing

Will "Gabriel's Revelation" shake our view of Christianity?

Monday July 7, 2008

Categories: Christianity, Judaism, Religion
So, this is supposed to "challenge the uniqueness of my theology?" A broken tablet with faded Hebrew writing on it which is purported to speak of a messiah who was to be raised after three days:The slaying of Simon, or...
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Comments
priceofliberty
July 7, 2008 8:49 AM

There are a lot of myths of messiahs that were before Jesus -- Gilgamesh for instance. I agree the missing text is important, we can't really draw their conclusion with out the full text. Kind of reminds me of the da vinci code stuff where the missing text was assigned words that fit the storyteller's view.

Moonshadow
July 7, 2008 9:18 AM

The slaying of Simon, or any case of the suffering messiah, is seen as a necessary step toward national salvation,

Who is the Simon, Simon Maccabeus? John 11:50. If you date at least the second half of Daniel ("Gabriel") late, as I do, it ties in with that Maccabean period. There are chronology inconsistencies with the Evangelists' Passion narratives and, even as a kid, I struggled to work out "three days" from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning.

I'm missing what the big scandal of this finding is for Christianity. Anyway, we needed look outside the Faith for our undoing, there's sufficient potential from within.

Gilgamesh for instance.

Oh, please, of messiahs? Flood story.

jestrfyl
July 7, 2008 9:35 AM

At most, this might fill in a few gaps. But I do not see any way this completely alters - or dare I say, reforms - anyone's Christology or basic theology.

ZZ
July 7, 2008 9:50 AM

My takeaway is that Jewish people have one less reason to doubt the claims of Jesus.

Charles Cosimano
July 7, 2008 11:57 AM

It would, on its face, which means that the whole thing could prove be another one of those fakes (remember the James Ossuary?) seem to be another link in the argument that the gospel accounts were written to make Jesus fulfill the various prophecies.

Bruce
July 7, 2008 12:27 PM

Hi I think my wife and I will enjoy reading your blog we found today.
We live in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY and we are wondering if you know how we might contact like minded reformed christians on the East Side of Brooklyn to start a new Reformed Presbyterian Church here.

We are aware of the PCA church near New York Methodist Hospital in Park Slope.

Moonshadow
July 7, 2008 12:34 PM

My takeaway is that Jewish people have one less reason to doubt the claims of Jesus.

I was afraid someone would say that ... go off and start a pogrom, ZZ.

"Early in 1926 the hardest boiled of all the atheists I ever knew sat in my room on the other side of the fire and remarked that the evidence for the historicity of the Gospels was really surprisingly good. 'Rum thing,' he went on. 'All that stuff of Frazer's about the Dying God. Rum thing. It almost looks as if it had really happened once.'" - Lewis, Surprised by Joy.

RG
July 7, 2008 2:36 PM

Short Answer- No.

ZZ
July 7, 2008 3:23 PM

Moonshadoe. Accumulating illustrations for possible use in verbal argument = pogrom? Please explain.

Michele McGinty
July 7, 2008 5:56 PM

"Hi I think my wife and I will enjoy reading your blog we found today.
We live in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, NY and we are wondering if you know how we might contact like minded reformed christians on the East Side of Brooklyn to start a new Reformed Presbyterian Church here."

I'm not familiar with that area, did you try the church directory on the pca webite?

https://processor.pcanet.org/ac/directory/directory.cfm

eclecticEel
July 7, 2008 11:20 PM

But Christians don't believe in the "uniqueness" of our theology, especially not reformed. Everything in the NT was foreshadowed in the old; there's no need to look outside the received Scriptures of that day and age to find the concept of the suffering savior. Jesus was able to show all these things on the road to Emmaus, if the Essene scribe who created this tablet was able to do the same - then praise be to God for that.

Although, it seems all a little unclear whether the tablet in question actually does refer to a Messiah who would be killed and raised again on the third day for the atonement of Israel. In the end it may just be people seeing what they want to believe.

RT
July 8, 2008 9:38 AM

The tablet isn't supposed to shake your faith if you don't want it to. That's the uniqueness of faith: you can believe in anything regardless of all evidence to the contrary if you so desire. All this shows is that the religion in question is like any other in its creation- a well-intentioned paradigm that was introduced to the world to spread peace, love, and understanding. These basic concepts of Christianity, and any religion for that matter, are worthwhile even if the historic underpinnings on which the religion were created were fictional. In other words, whether there is a god or not is truly unimportant- it's whether we show compassion for one another that is critical. That you would entertain thoughts on this tablet and its potential, if any, is commendable. In contrast, outright rejection of it would be nothing less than a "faith-based" knee-jerk reaction. After all, "Doubt is the offspring of knowledge: the savage never doubts at all." (William Winwood Reade, 1872)

Benjamin
July 8, 2008 12:19 PM

I usually am critical when these archaeological finds arise; at least, I am cautious about the people who are excavating them.

However, the lack of harmony in the four Gospels is enough to show that Christianity is at best a deeply tainted religion. At worst, a fraudulent one? I'll go with the former- I believe in the spiritually human non-theistic Jesus.

Brian
July 8, 2008 2:36 PM

RT,
Regardless of your belief, I strongly disagree with you about the basic concepts of Christianity. The purpose of Christianity is not at all about a well intentioned paradigm to spread peace, love, and understanding. Fundamentally Christianity is about redemption of mankind through the propitiation of Christ. The true paradigm of Christianity is that of a fallen world, where mankind has turned his back upon God. The consequence of this is complete separation from God with man having inability to reconcile himself. Therefore, God sent His son, Jesus Christ, as a mediator between Himself and man. The sacrifice that Christ made enables us to have redemption. Christianity by no means is fluffy feel good "religion" conceived as a metanarrative to give peace to foolish men when they sleep at night and who lack the appropriate explicit scientific knowledge to fill in the gaps of the great unknown. After all, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34)

Michele McGinty
July 9, 2008 10:55 AM

"In other words, whether there is a god or not is truly unimportant- it's whether we show compassion for one another that is critical."

That's not what Paul thought:
1 Cor. 15:12 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

If Christianity was not true, then I've lived a lie and spread lies about God. If Christianity was not true, then I've put my trust in a false hope.

Mike
July 9, 2008 1:06 PM

Wrong about the harmony point. The lack of harmony in the gospels is a characteristic of authenticity. If one guy made up a story and then told his friends to spread the story, you would expect exact copies of details. Image a gang of thieves who want to get their alibi straight. Indeed, sometimes it is such precision that gives away a lie. However, if the gospels are (rightly) viewed as eye-witness accounts, you would expect the stories to be basically the same because they are based on true events, but some details would differ. Again, imagine what happens in a court room. The defence would try to nitpick minor differences in eye-witness accounts, but that is not enough to invalid their stories.

Mulligan
July 9, 2008 5:56 PM

Benjamin,

Lack of consistency in the Gospels????? What are you talking about? All of the books of the bible are cannonized and therefore are harmonious. You simply need to understand the Word to see this.

Laura
July 11, 2008 1:08 PM

The apostles were writing letters to churches & people and telling about their experiences with Jesus, their experiences as a believer and how tell discern truth from error, but most of all the full Truth of God.

If a group of people were "purposely" making a book, they would all come together and discuss the events to make them exactly the same, but that isn't what happened here. When they wrote, they were not putting together a book. They wrote God inspired personal letters with little blurbs about their experiences peppered in. They are telling their own story and telling what they personally experienced. No one see any event the exact same way and if they were all exact replicas I believe that would show they were false and premeditated.

When I read the Bible, I see that they all fit together very nicely and harmoniously.

One day we all will be in THE Court Room of all Court Rooms and Jesus will provide all the "evidence" the nay sayers need, but unfortunately the proof He will provide will convict them for their chosen unbelief. God is real, Jesus is THE Messiah and it doesn't take mountains of proof to know that. It takes faith and belief in that which is true.

Barbara
July 12, 2008 3:52 PM

It had been my understanding the the authenticity of the New Testament (and that is the REAL issue here) was that it explain the Old Testament. Christians believe that the NT is the fullfillment of the OT, and that Jesus is the Messiah that came so that mankind would have a way to eternal life.

Some years ago the church I was affiliated with made major doctrinal changes. My foundation was shaken because it was based on what I had been taught, and the understanding I had from reading the bible, predisposed by what I had been taught. I dare say it is this way with most christians.

Nature convinces me that this earth and all that is in it had to have been created by an intelligent something. So I believe that there is a creator. I also elect to accept the Old Testament as my source for instructions from the creator, because I believe that when someone in the NT referred to the "scriptures" or "it is written", they were referring to the law and prophets. The NT wasn't cannonized at that time.

This is what I'm having to consider:

Jesus didn't do what the savior to come in the OT was supposed to do.

The christian teaching is that there is only one God. Is Jesus the God of the OT? Jesus and God equals two.

A study of ancient Egypt indicates that simularites of the"Jesus story" existed before the birth of Jesus. So "Gabriel's Revelation" concept has been around to a long time.

Like it or not, the OT is about God's relationship with Israel, and anyone else only if they choose to live by the instructions given to Israel. (Ex: Ruth)

Well . . . christians need to read the bible like they would any other instruction manual. Warning! You may come to have a difficult time in church on Sunday mornings.


Karen Gebhart
July 18, 2008 12:47 PM

Nothing to "consider" to Barbara:

The OT states clearly the the Messiah will come from Bethlehem and thru a "maiden" from the lineage of King David...that would Jesus.
There is only 1 God, however within God are 2 other "heads"...God made man: Jesus and the Holy Spirit of God...but they are all from the 1 True God.
The Jesus Story as some would call it, is not a "story", it is the life accounts of Jesus by witnesses to his ministry and death and most of all, His Resurrection as foretold in the prophesies of the OT.
God HAD to reveal himself to man because man, whom God created, were and still are sinful beings. God said that none should perish into darkness! God made himself into a man to reach the people...if God could create all that is around us, is it not possible that He Himself could not create Himself into human form? He did, His Holy Name is Jesus Christ whom He calls "Son of Man. Son of God"! When we have sons and daughters, they are of us...just like Jesus is of His Father God!
Jesus did exactly what was foretold in the ancient prophesies...The temple will fall and be rebuilt in 3 Days. Jesus was and is the Temple of the Lord God, he was crucified and rose from death in 3 Days!
In His death and resurection, Jesus, God made man, paved the way to God thru the shedding of blood...also foretold in the OT.
Our belief is thru Faith as we cannot see or touch Him in these times BUT He was physical in His time and the accounts of Jesus are written clearly.
Pls be mindful that Jesus talked and warned us of "Religous Zealots"...he was not only speaking of the Jewish leaders still today...he was speaking of all "religions" as they are made by man, not made by God! Jesus is not a "religion" and Christians are not "religious" as we do not follow "traditions" for any sake thereof!
Christians are diciples of Jesus, we follow what He says to do and be as God says thru Him...really simple to understand! The biblical teachings have been picked apart and "religions" have been made...BUT they are NOT from God...they are made from man to justify the means of living the way someone "wants" to live...not the way God tells us we should!
Church on Sundays is a meeting of believers and a teaching method to the believers of our Lord...not to be picked apart, disected and only take what is easy to do...it is a matter of the faith that Jesus says to have and to walk that faith daily...he said it would not be easy but to do it in faith and the rewards are waiting for us in Heaven with our Father who made us. Do not pick apart the Word, just live it on faith, that is what a true Christian is commanded to do!

matt
July 18, 2008 7:32 PM

I am not making any assumptions here, but the posts speak for themselves. It seems as if someone is amazed by the fact that a story of a suffering messiah was around before Jesus did what he did. Anyone having read the bible knows that this is in fact true.

God himself said he would send a messiah to be the perfect sacrifice, before Jesus came.

God said that the messiah would suffer and die and in what manner this would happen, before Jesus came.

Read Isaiah 53.

Jesus did not fullfill a messiah story created by man that had been circulating for years before he came. Jesus fullfilled God's promise of a messiah that God himself had be telling us about throughout the Old Testament.

Listen, God loves you more than you can imagine, and he doesn't want you to perish. He showed us all the way back to him through his word. All you have to do is turn away from disobeying him and believe in Jesus. We can never be perfect enough to be rightous, but now, after the Cross, we don't have to be. Jesus was rightous for us. Jesus was perfect for us. He is the one. Believe in him and listen to him.

David
January 29, 2009 9:47 AM

Just a little over 200 years ago, a document was penned that would be the basis and foundation of a new nation. It was written by the greatest minds of the time. Today it is the center of debate and angered disagreement. If we can't decide what a 200 year old document written in "English" means, how can anyone come to a definitive conclusion as to what anything written 2000 years ago means?

Frank
June 3, 2009 6:57 PM

To David, Re: "If we can't decide what a 200 year old document written in "English" means, how can anyone come to a definitive conclusion as to what anything written 2000 years ago means?"

The notion that "we can't decide" what the Constitution means is entirely false. We know what the document means, and the fact that some may want to dispute it doesn't render it unknowable. If someone disputed your name, it wouldn't logically follow that we can't know what your name is.

The same holds true for the Bible. Though there may be some passages that require intense study to understand properly, it is, by and large, clear about it's basic message, which is the story of redemption and how God saves man from sin.

It's interesting that those who oppose Christianity seem to think non-Christian messianic stories are the basis for the NT narrative and not the reverse. But the scriptures themselves warn of anti-Christs, i.e., false messiahs and posers, so why be surprised when others produce stories of messianic claims from antiquity?

Your Name
June 14, 2009 4:08 PM

A retired professor and university dean, Stan Seidner argues that the Gabriel tablet reflects the Apocalyptic beliefs of the day, many which are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as antecedent and predictive writings of Christianity. He also suggested the use of infra-red technological applications, similar to what had been utilized on Dead Sea Scroll Material in the recent past. Challenging Knohl's "Two Messiahs" theory, Seidner noted that, "Knohl’s reliance upon what he calls, the 'Glorification Hymn,' in support of a first Messiah’s relationship with King Herod, failed in its Carbon 14 testing. It predates Herod’s ascendency to the throne by at least twelve years and as much as one hundred and fifty six." However, he does agree with Knohl's interpretation of the inscription,"to rise from the dead within three days."
Stanley S. Seidner, "The Knohl Hypothesis and 'Hazon Gabriel,'" June 3, 2009.

Yigal
June 14, 2009 4:12 PM

Retired professor and university dean, Stan Seidner argues that the Gabriel stone reflects the Apocalyptic beliefs of the day, many which are found in the Dead Sea Scrolls, as antecedent and predictive writings of Christianity. He also suggested the use of infra-red technological applications, similar to what had been utilized on Dead Sea Scroll Material in the recent past. Challenging Knohl's "Two Messiahs" theory, Seidner noted that, "Knohl’s reliance upon what he calls, the 'Glorification Hymn,' in support of a first Messiah’s relationship with King Herod, failed in its Carbon 14 testing. It predates Herod’s ascendency to the throne by at least twelve years and as much as one hundred and fifty six." However, he does agree with Knohl's interpretation of the inscription,"to rise from the dead within three days."
from Seidner, Stanley S. "The Knohl Hypothesis and 'Hazon Gabriel,'" June 3, 2009.

Stephan Pickering/Chofetz Chayim ben-Avraham
July 22, 2009 12:33 AM

For Jewish scholars such as myself, it is a source of frustration that Dr Seidner's critique is unavailable on the WWW. If someone could forward a copy to me -- stephanpickering@redshift.com -- it will be most appreciated.
Reb Knohl has released his analyses: Messiahs & resurrection in 'The
Gabriel Revelation' (Continuum), 122pp
Shalom welitra'ot.

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