Interesting insight into the Obama/McCain faith debate that took place on Saturday:<blockquote>Before last night, McCain had been widely criticized by Christian activists for keeping mum about his faith and about values issues like abortion and marriage Last night seemed to change that. How much headway did McCain make among skeptical evangelicals?
I’m a pastor, I’m not a prophet, so I would not predict how evangelicals are going to vote. I will tell you they’re not monolith. That’s a big myth. They’re going to make up their minds based on the hierarchy of their values. For many evangelicals, of course, if they believe that life begins at conception, that’s a deal breaker for a lot of people. If they think that life begins at conception, then that means that there are 40 million Americans who are not here [because they were aborted] that could have voted. They would call that a holocaust and for them it would like if I’m Jewish and a Holocaust denier is running for office. I don’t care how right he is on everything else, it’s a deal breaker for me. I’m not going to vote for a Holocaust denier…
It all depends on the hierarchy of their worldview of what matters most to them. My gut reaction when it was over was that Obama will pick up probably some younger votes and McCain will probably pick up some older votes and it might come down to which group winds up showing up that the polls.
He’s right about the hierarchy of values. It’s really about where you place the emphasis of how you’ll vote. There are some Evangelicals who have seen that voting pro-life hasn’t gotten them very far. We are still murdering babies after years of voting for Republicans and nothing has changed. There are other issues that Evangelicals are interested in: social justice, poverty, AIDS, etc. If they can’t see any movement on abortion, why not get the other things they are interested in? (If they can actually trust the Democrats to provide helpful solutions to these problems.)
What do you Obamanites think of Obama being compared to an Holocaust denier? I thought that was a little extreme for Warren to say even if he’s just characterizing what others may be thinking.
posted August 18, 2008 at 2:39 pm
the hierarchy of their values.
An interesting expression.
Obama being compared to an Holocaust denier?
Warren’s just going by the numbers, a million a year in both cases. The comparison still seems a little off in that Warren singles out Obama … when, in fact, we are all culpable.
posted August 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I’m not an Obamanite and I think it was a pretty despicable comparison.
posted August 18, 2008 at 5:24 pm
If only one politician either party would ever have a consistently pro-life position for humans both before and after birth, in the US and in Iraq, etc. Rick Warren isn’t helping that politican emerge.
posted August 18, 2008 at 8:15 pm
unfortunately for warren, not everyone believes that life begins at conception. warren trying to force his beliefs on the rest of the country is quite fascist and typical of what we have come to expect from the religious right wing.
posted August 18, 2008 at 11:33 pm
Why don’t people get it that all life is sacred? Not just human. It seems so restrictive to create artificial boundaries between people and the rest of the life on this planet. We could never live at all if it weren’t for the delicate bioweb around us. That we are rapidly destroying.
posted August 19, 2008 at 2:06 am
I’m in shock at this point that Belief.net, a reportedly non-partisan website still allows Ms. McGinty to post her comments here.
If you’ve read her dispicable, HATE-FILLED articles at “The Conservative Reader” that are so vile towards Senator Barack Obama that they will make you sick.
I’m so happy that David Kuo has moved on and am stoked to read some of the items he’s putting out now.
He was fair, and honest when he was here. And even at other sites, he doesn’t sneak off like Ms. McGinty and post filth.
Belief.net should read McGinty’s disgusting articles and then take appropriate action as far as allowing her to post her.
The woman is as two-faced as they come.
posted August 19, 2008 at 8:31 am
I’m in shock at this point that Belief.net, a reportedly non-partisan website still allows Ms. McGinty to post her comments here.
If you’ve read her dispicable, HATE-FILLED articles at “The Conservative Reader” that are so vile towards Senator Barack Obama that they will make you sick.
I’m so happy that David Kuo has moved on and am stoked to read some of the items he’s putting out now.
He was fair, and honest when he was here. And even at other sites, he doesn’t sneak off like Ms. McGinty and post filth.
Belief.net should read McGinty’s disgusting articles and then take appropriate action as far as allowing her to post her.
The woman is as two-faced as they come.
Posted by: Mike, overworked reporter | August 19, 2008 2:06 AM
___________________________________________________________________
You weak-kneed little sisters must attend DRAMA QUEEN seminars in order to feign this kind of outrage. Good grief. Next Drama Queen!
(on the other hand it might be you’re auditioning for a role in Elton John’s life)
posted August 19, 2008 at 10:53 am
Mike, Overwrought Reporter,
Good Grief! Get a life! Hate-filled might apply to the Daily Kos crowd, but disagreeing with you does not make Michelle a hater.
As to the FASCIST label being applied, I pose the following question: If you do believe that life begins at conception, and you don’t work to prevent the taking of that life, aren’t you commiting a sin? Aren’t you allowing evil to take place?
If you disagree with that position and want to allow the practice to continue, then go ahead and work to maintain it. Just don’t expect me to distain of my right to work toward the ending of that horrific practice.
posted August 19, 2008 at 1:48 pm
“I pose the following question: If you do believe that life begins at conception, and you don’t work to prevent the taking of that life, aren’t you commiting a sin? Aren’t you allowing evil to take place?”
are you as actively protesting against state sponsored executions? are you as actively protesting against the living beings blown to bits during state sponsored war? are you as actively protesting the death of millions around the world due to starvation, exposure, malaria, AIDS, and neglect by first-world countries? there is no dispute that those are truly living beings when compared to a zygote, an embryo, a blastocyst or a fetus. if you can answer yes to all of those then good for you – just remember on your crusade that not everyone agrees as to which point a clump of cells constitutes a being.
posted August 19, 2008 at 3:52 pm
“warren trying to force his beliefs on the rest of the country”
after parsing his words more closely, and placing the correct emphasis of michele’s last sentence, “even if he’s just characterizing what others may be thinking” i believe that my aim was misplaced at warren and should have been directed instead at those simpletons who he was characterizing and at mccain and others for wanting to illegalize abortions and threaten and intimidate medical professionals into refusing to perform them.
and when michele says that “We are still murdering babies after years of voting for Republicans and nothing has changed,” there should be two things that are apparent.
1. not everyone agrees with the characterization that an abortion is “murdering babies.”
2. republicans have offered no sensible legislation to reduce the number of abortions while still allowing for women to ultimately make that choice themselves. democrats have finally adopted a platform that most people can agree with. abortions aren’t choices that women and men make lightly but with great consideration to many factors. make all forms of contraception easily available. educate people on how to use them properly. encourage abstinence for as long as it might work, but also encourage birth control for when abstinence fails. when it comes to the unfortunate and extremely rare late term abortion where the woman’s life is in danger, the woman still has a choice to make.
posted August 19, 2008 at 9:38 pm
YOU HAVE TO ASK YOUR SELF WOULD JESUS CHRIST ASSIST IN AN ABORTION. WOULD HE APPROVE OF KILLING BABIES IN THE WOMB. IF YOU ARE A SPIRIT FILLED BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN THERE IS ONLY ONE ANSWER. WHAT IS YOUR ANSWER?
posted August 20, 2008 at 4:30 pm
no need to yell. (check the caps lock on your keyboard)
my answer is that i’m not a “born again.” i figure the first time was stressful enough.
nearly all abortions are during the first trimester, before the point at which most people consider the fetus to be viable, or as you say, “a baby in the womb.”
would god kill every firstborn of egypt? would god wipe out the entire human race but for one man’s family? would jesus christ assist in the wholesale destruction of life by our war machines?
i don’t pretend to know the mind of the lord. but your question opens up a theological debate. it’s made pretty clear throughout the bible what god thinks about murder, but the bible does not mention abortion. according to you, what does the bible say about when a fetus becomes a “person” or living human person such that an abortion would be considered murder?