Obama lies in his abortion campaign ad

The GOP platform calls for NO abortions even in cases of rape or incest. So you're saying McCain was too weak to influence his party's platform, or that he has now changed his mind, or that he just felt it would be a bad idea to "ruffle the feathers" of his core constituency, the people who don't really give a damn about reducing the number of abortions (a plank in the Democratic platform) but who DO care a lot about making themselves look SO righteous on this issue so they can attack their political opponents from a false position of moral superiority. Meanwhile, once those babies are here, who cares whether they have health care, basic nourishment, or a decent education.

It's not going to work. Most people in American believe women ought to have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, that it's nobody else's business, that government should keep out of people's most personal decisions. And they CERTAINLY don't believe a woman should be forced to carry to term the offspring of her rapist.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/8/31/123422/099

Most people in American believe women ought to have the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, that it's nobody else's business, that government should keep out of people's most personal decisions

Then why not let it be a state's right issue? Let the voters decide.

And they CERTAINLY don't believe a woman should be forced to carry to term the offspring of her rapist.

Here you are most likely correct.

I know that I would counsel a woman who had been raped that she carries a life and that she holds the power of life and death. I would not condemn her for not seeing any other way, and would not scold her once the decision was made.

I do know that my best friend was raped and had a child as a result. For her, that life-giving event furthered the healing process. She had the opportunity to follow one sin against her with another sin of killing her child - and she has never regretted it.

I do believe that abortion in the case of rape is wrong. It ends the life of an unborn child. However, I also recognize how a woman in desperation might come to see that as the most viable option available to her.

And I do not believe a woman should have a right to an abortion of convenience...This is death used as birth control.

You may think it's okay...many do not. That is why it is part of the political debate. You may think it would be a good idea to "shush" those who disagree with abortion on demand; who think that a "born alive" child should get medical care; who are convinced that abortion ends life and that abortion is wrong.

Brain...your personal insults relate to abortion...how?

MzEllen, this thinking liberal is just fine with conservatives expressing all the opinions they want to express, whether they agree with me or not. The way I see the "infanticide" hullabaloo is that Obama voted against a poorly worded bill that would have also made abortions for rape or incest illegal. Yes, he voted against the born-alive bill, but if he hadn't, it would have been found illegal in the court system pretty fast anyway. You may feel very strongly that he should have supported the bill anyway, and you are 100% entitled to your opinion. It just isn't the same as mine. I have a feeling Obama isn't losing your vote on this issue, and be blessed.

It is wrong to say, "Obama lies in his abortion campaign ad" because the facts do not support the statement. I know that Douglas Johnson, NRLC will be posting his long posting of biased and twisted information, but independent organizations have found different.

Obama and 'Infanticide' August 25, 2008
The facts about Obama's votes against 'Born Alive' bills in Illinois.

"What we can say is that many other people – perhaps most – think of "infanticide" as the killing of an infant that would otherwise live. And there are already laws in Illinois, which Obama has said he supports, that protect these children even when they are born as the result of an abortion. Illinois compiled statute 720 ILCS 510/6 states that physicians performing abortions when the fetus is viable must use the procedure most likely to preserve the fetus' life; must be attended by another physician who can care for a born-alive infant; and must "exercise the same degree of professional skill, care and diligence to preserve the life and health of the child as would be required of a physician providing immediate medical care to a child born alive in the course of a pregnancy termination which was not an abortion." Failure to do any of the above is considered a felony. ""

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/obama_and_infanticide.html

Obama was not coldly describing the situation of a second doctor, he was being practical/pragmatic.

I would recommend reading Steve Waldman's great postings, especially his September 2008 posts:

Christians Who Defame: What the Bible Has to Say

Is The Ninth Commandment* A Lesser One?

I only plug into Beliefnet every once in awhile. The Republican platform does say what you say it doesn't say. As a downstate Illinois guy, I know that Obama, whatever else you think of him, did help cosponsor health care for kids. And I echo the post above that referred to no baptism or funerals for fetuses.

I really expected more from Beliefnet and from a blog entitled "Reformed Chick".

The "Born Alive Bill" federal version passsed in Congress 98 to 0. Even Barbara Boxer and Hilary voted in favor of it. It has never been found to be unconstitutional. Obama voted against the Illinois version with the exact same wording as the Federal version, even after he said he would support the bill if the wording were amended to contain the same wording as the federal version. What Gianna Jessen said is absolutely true.

It's born of confusion; and I find it misleading. But in that context it matches your arguments well...... misleading and born of confusion.

Might I suggested clicking on the link in the side bar that says "What the heck are Reformed Christians doing blogging about politics?"

Christians ARE allowed to have political blogs. That's what this blog is. I am capable of understanding why a Christian has the views that this blog has and I'm capable of accepting a political blog by a Christian whose Christianity colors their politics.

It's why I'm puzzled that Biden can say that life begins at conception...it's okay to kill that life. But that's above Obama's pay grade.

meh: "Then please stop with all the "born alive" BS - those instances account for approximately 3-4 thousand cases per year."

This is clearly NOT "B.S." We are talking about 3 to 4 thousand lives a year that are hanging in the balance. The vote Obama took as an Illinois state legislator would let those people die.

meh, this may be "B.S." to you, but it can not be to the 3 to 4 thousand people a year whose fate hang in the balance.

And for many, many of us, we do not believe this. In fact, for some of us, our religion doesn't even teach that (Judaism).

And many of us do. Joe Biden does. The fact, for some of us, is that we defend the unborn. And we support politicians who also support the unborn. I am not a single-issue voter, but just don't be shocked if abortion is an issue with us.

You can stump for your opinions, just don't act so surprised and offended when someone, a Christian, or Jew, or Hindu, disagrees with you. Especially when you post a column begging for debate.

I have not stated that I'm offended.

Do not mistake passion for offense.

I know...let's talk about the post...Obama's lie about supporting health care for infants.

why does it make you feel good to insult the intelligence of those you interact with in com boxes?

Oh, good heavens, that's a good one, MzEllen!

Hey, are you joining this blog?

No...I'll be working on getting my own blog back on track. While very conservative, very political and very reformed, I'm not joining this blog.

I know that I can get "snarky" at times...it's generally out of frustration. What I see here appears to be recreational insulting and name-calling (and yes, I'm including GAT).

I don't like it from either side. And yes...I wonder what is attractive about the habit of insults and name-calling.

You are reproductive absolutists and in a democracy, you CANNOT be allowed to impose your will on those who do not share your views, no matter how passionately you may feel that you are right.

At what point will you also advocate for killing old people (or young people) who are in pain? Or perhaps merely a drain on society?

You are very good at being judgmental yourself, despising others for their protection of life.

There happens to be a wide range of tolerance in the anti-abortion camp...

Although you despise the people who protect life, I despise the political platform that would demand that I pay for (through my tax dollars) a political platform that would allow any abortion, at any time, for any reason, whether or not the woman can afford it.

Just as you despise the people who protect life, I despise the Democratic platform that places absolutely NO (zero) limit on abortion for any reason.

You go ahead with your despising of people - I'll continue to fight the political platform, while attempting compassion for the people who believe in it.

Not to mention torturing people to death. Do you know how many people have died in U.S. custody since 9-11?

the public might draw the line when it comes to infanticide?

Hey, look, didn't criminals who survived execution get pardoned, a recognition that it was God's will they live ... or even a sign that they were truly innocent?

(Isn't that what made Clint Eastwood's Westerns so ominous, the rope marks on his neck?)

How can we do less than that here?

MzEllen

I almsot never post like I do here. I wsa trying to mimic Michelle's style, and you don't like it! At least you try to argue a post. Michelle appears to lack the brains to even argue intelligently. Needs to read Kuyper, she thought, to be reformed. Someone even had to suggest that to her.

Be honest MzEllen! How many of her last 100 posts are overtly reformed? How many discuss a relationship with Jesus Christ, or applies the gospel to life? None that I have seen!

I am against abortion, but not a one issue voter. Republicans will not reduce or eliminate abortion, as witnessed by their inaction whne they were in control of congress and presidency. Obama is much more consistently prolife in all areas except abortion than McCain. Republicans and Bush simply used abortion to get votes, but have no real intention of doing anything.

Question? Does a birth control pill that keeps a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall and thus keeps it from having almost any cell division/growth cause abortion? Is that infanticide?

then again, how is any of this going to fix the financial problems that are rocking world markets today? oh yeah, diversionary tactic. ok, i'll play.

"I know that I can get 'snarky' at times...it's generally out of frustration."

ditto, lady. and some days are worse than others. remember that the initial post sets the tone. and you'll see that the more outrageous the initial post, the worse the comments will be. we suffer 2 additional levels of frustration here: michele posts to an initial page in a hit and run fashion, rarely taking the time to support her "opinions", and already put on the defensive our comments are relegated to the back pages. we can deal with this, but just don't get your panties in a twist when we come out swinging, okay?

"At what point will you also advocate for killing old people (or young people) who are in pain? Or perhaps merely a drain on society?"

clearly i disagree with your definition of when a fetus becomes a person, but your analogy is false. nobody that i know of is advocating killing a separate being, otherwise capable of living on its own accord, out of convenience to society.

"I despise the political platform that would demand that I pay for (through my tax dollars) a political platform that would allow any abortion, at any time, for any reason, whether or not the woman can afford it."

so, you're against paying taxes that pay salaries to politicians who support the right to abortion? is that your claim? because that never seems to be the argument. it's always "life begins at conception, so aborting a fetus equates to infanticide" and that the rest of the country should live under laws dictated by your world view. calling people who support a woman's choice, or who support abortion rights, or who have an abortion "baby killers" doesn't seem to play well to that argument, which is what michele and others here do, so you'd be alone on your platform, and it should include opposing any and every war because of "collateral damage" and you should also be against capital punishment.

look, my liver is a living organ, but it is not a person of its own. granted, scientists today can take a living cell from it and clone it in ways that we never considered possible 2000 years ago, right?

does this mean that i'm guilty of murder if i suffer a heart attack and some living cells in my body die? where does it end? both the sperm and the unfertilized egg are also living cells, so maybe it starts during foreplay when the male penis hardens and sperm is generated in the testicles and one lucky sperm is "chosen" by a higher being. where does the bible define exactly when a new being begins?

see, this is partly the crux of the issue. the other part is your faith versus the religious beliefs of other americans in the political realm of a secular government.

you say that you're "puzzled that Biden can say that life begins at conception...it's okay to kill that life. But that's above Obama's pay grade."

it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what they're saying. in fact, the point is obvious, that regardless of their religious belief on when "life begins" their belief is not the same as mine. this is why abortion shouldn't be a political issue, just like religion should not be a political issue. obama's not the one to decide for everyone when a "person" begins during the term of a pregnancy, and therefore supporting another's right to decide based on their own belief seems appropriate.

while i think a vast majority of people would agree that abortions aren't desirable, at least obama has talked about reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies, while leaving abortions legal.

that's what the "choice" is. get it? we're protecting your right to choose to not have an abortion. you choose to carry a fetus to term, great for you. i won't despise you for it in the least. but i also will not despise a different woman with different beliefs and a different situation who chooses to terminate pregnancy. i despise a person who forces a woman to have an unwanted abortion, and i despise those of you who try to stop women who choose to have one. so be happy and mind your own business.