"I'm Joe the Plumber"

it's been shown that mccain was defending a progressive (or socialist or spread-the-wealth or whatever you want to call it today) tax plan like obama's. then he was against bush's tax cuts before he was for them. mccain has flip-flopped so much on this one issue alone, i see no reason for you to believe him.

"I'm not the one wanting to spread the wealth - Obama is."

then ask obama what he thinks is fair. ask mccain (because his plan "spreads the wealth" too). and i expect since you don't want progressive taxes, you will refuse any refund coming back to you. good for you for sticking to your guns.

again, your argument is that it's not fair that someone who pays no federal taxes should get a check from the government. so i ask again,
just how many people who pay no federal taxes (whether it's income, social security, or medicare payroll taxes) will receive a check?

Why should the results of my labor, education, and correct decisions over my life time be "spread" to others? If taxes on income above $250,000 is not enough to give hand outs to those who pay no taxes then what will the floor become 100,000, 50,000, 20,000? Obama is not proposing a tax cut, but a tax refund that means that even those who have made no contribution to maintaining this country will enjoy my success --- where were they when my career demanded I put my health if not my life at risk?

Further, Obama GUESSED correctly about the weapons in Iraq --- he was not a Senator at the time. As a Senator, he had the opportunity to support the surge in Iraq and he DECIDED not to do so. He failed the first real test he was given and will not admit he was wrong.

Lacks insight, lacks experience, lacks military background ---- the only thing he doesn't lack is an abundance of words.

"I've asked repeatedly about how much if 'fair'. I don't think it's 'fair' for anybody to access income tax refunds when they pay ZERO income taxes."

fair is a subjective term. i do think that it's fair to cut some slack even to people who pay federal taxes even via payroll taxes. why does any tax refund have to come solely from income taxes paid? many people work hard, have their payroll taxes withheld, and never get any tax break. i don't think that's fair.

"It doesn't matter how many there are, "tax credits" are not "tax reductions". I'll say that Obama's plan (assuming that he's more honest about this financial promise than he was about his finanical promise about campaign financing - which I don't) would benefit my own personal finances."

and i'll coeerct you again, there are 2 types of tax credits - refundable and non-refundable. the current tax code has examples of both. mccain is offering $5000 refundable tax credit in his plan. (and again, i'll point out that mccain flip-flopped on campaign financing twice, so i don't know why the hell you'd believe mccain. and he's is only whining about it because he got his ass stomped in fund raising... i say this as a 4-time obama campaign donor.)

"But the larger picture is the economy in general. I don't see a benefit to raising taxes on those who hire the most people."

you mean to a rate lower than reagan and clinton did? by the way, i think that you should have a look at just who obama is consulting on economic and tax policy issues. this is one more reason why i trust obama more on the economy (well that plus the fact that mccain's eyes glaze over when anyone starts talking economics).

"I'll see if I can get an answer this time (although I'm not holding my breath)...how much money do you think a couple earning $250,000 a year be able to keep (after federal, state, local, property taxes)? But I won't hold my breath."

i'll answer you again though i doubt that you'll bother to read it. at least, i won't hold my breath. last time, though. no more.

i think that everyone single, or married - regardless of their income level should be able to keep all of everything they earn. but that's not realistic, is it? the reality is that things that our government decides to do on our behalf happens to cost money. things like wars, for example. and things like bailing out banks and lenders to try to stop a global economic implosion. and things like border security, research and development, social security, medicare, and so on. so, it depends on what the government happens to be blowing money on at the time as to how much of that $250,000 is going to be taxed, now doesn't it? we can't refund all of everyone's taxes or we couldn't fund those things. that's called fiscal responsibility. as it happens, it has been pointed out that both candidates tax plans will increase the national deficit, but what may shock you is that obama's will increase the deficit less than mccain's, even when obama's plan will benefit the people who are hurting the most. mccain's plan is the opposite.