Jake Tapper notes that Obama has a long list of things he's promising to do for America but isn't telling us how he'll pay for them (besides tax the rich and spread the wealth around):Once you get past the soaring...
I have to admit "Here comes Obama Claus, here comes Obama Claus, right down Obama Claus lane" has a ring to it.
But if the bottom line is that Obama's programs run up to $3.5 trillion we don't have and McCain's run up to $5 trillion we don't have, as the CNN fact checkers suggest, I'll go with Obama. And as I can tell you as someone cashing out a decade's work myself next year, and having passed the $250,000 mark both of the last two years (after a good many years I had income of $3,000 or less doing ministry), the good news is, income taxes aren't especially relevant if you don't mess with capital gains. Taxes are always avoidable if you plan; it seems to me the people who complain about them haven't ever dealt with 'em.
anonymous reincarnate
October 31, 2008 10:39 AM
very good and valid points, robert.
but don't get in the way of michele distorting what obama's plans are... she's on a mission to deceive and truth only becomes an obstacle.
"There's no such thing as a free lunch."
apparently michele is unaware of the lifetime of free lunches that aig and bear sterns CEOs and the convicted republican alaska senator have gotten recently... what she meant to say was that there's no such thing as a free lunch for middle class hard workers.
Larry Parker
October 31, 2008 10:43 AM
http://community.beliefnet.com/doxieman122
I just noticed the "dupes" tag on this post (and many others).
Please remind me how labeling the people you write about as stupid and gullible -- not just once, but for eternity in cyberspace -- is "Christian," exactly?
Michael
October 31, 2008 10:59 AM
"there's no such thing as a free lunch."
Unless you are an oil company or defense contractor under the Bush regime.
yelladawgNC
October 31, 2008 12:01 PM
Yes, I just read this morning about the additional free foie gras, strawberries and champagne lunch offered to AIG to the tune of $21 billion; that raises their maximum available credit, courtesy of the American taxpayer, to a cool $144 billion under three different programs.
In September, they estimated they'd need $20 billion. Gee, I guess they really, really like the taste of that delicious free lunch! Almost as much as their executives enjoyed their taxpayer-financed trip to the spa after they got their bailout. Oh, the stress, the stress!
WAKE UP, MICHELE! YOU ARE THE GULLIBLE ONE.
In the meantime, another story in today's NY Times lays out in great detail the effects of the Obama and McCain tax plans: "Taxpayers Would Get a Bigger Break, Overall, in Obama's Tax Plan." Anyone who harbors any doubt about which candidate is actually fighting for the middle class should read it before he or she casts a vote.
Robert
October 31, 2008 12:49 PM
Yelladawg, I don't pretend to understand Michelle's investment in her political choices. It could be something to do with revenues from this blog, it could be honest conviction, it could be that unflinching commitment thing that comes with a lot of her brand of Christianity. Maybe she just owns a contrarian streak. I do myself. But I'm pretty sure her taxes won't be going up under Obama.
MommyK
October 31, 2008 1:28 PM
Well, I guess, to be an American does mean that we share the benefit of many liberties - like free speech. It is so interesting to be able to have these opportunities to weigh in your opinion - so many other countries are not so blessed. Having said that, it is so interesting to see that many folks are so blind to what is being said!
George Bush's administration got much good done - and under the circumstances of 9-11 - I don't think that event created an environment propaganda of fear - it was a reality that was allowed by the previous democratic administration. The terrorist organization grew in power during that time, because they went undetected by the administration under Clinton's watch. The terrorists that pulled off 9-11 were in this country for years! The reality is Clinton's first years of presidency flourished from Reagan's policies and the last 2 years Of Clinton's administration were mired in legal woes of Lewinsky and White Water. These distractions and splintered factions led to the possibility of 9-11 - do not forget the first World trade Center bombing.
Say what you will about Bush's Presidency. His tax cuts and early days were clearly on the road to limit government. His handling of 9-11 and declaration of war in Iraq - a war that he expressed would not be won quickly - was approved by House and Senate vote. The facts - not the talking points show that our allies had intel that identified a very clear threat of WMD - and UN Sanctions - inefficiently executed by that wasteful organization - confirmed by Sec'y of State Colin Powell's address to the world, British PM Tony Blair, and others world leaders confirm this. Do your own investigation, don't simply accept what the local news channel feeds you. The good done? Our Democracy learned from History and freed the world from an evil tyrannical murderer, credited with genocide similar to Hitler. The same tyrant who murdered more than 6 million of his own people. Unfortunately, our house and Senate leadership lacked the understanding to manage the executiom of the plan and early military plan was fissured by power struggles within and improperly and untimely funded by congress. Even so, the truth is - today there have been no other attacks despite the adversary, and democracy is growing in Iraq.
This economic debacle was not propagated by Bush's administration. Read the facts. The beginning of this debacle was created by the deregulation of the Clinton presidency, further propegated by demand from democratic leadership that the American Dream be spoon fed to even those who could not afford it, and then fueled in greed by organizations these same democrats sought to support and control (Acorn, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) to further their agenda. Investigate the facts, take the time to look into the problems, don't just listen to the spoon fed local media. Those in power in the house and senate hid the true spiraling debacle and these very same folks personally benefited by campaign contribution and personal mortgages expanded the Sub Prime fiasco and crafted a bailout that moves against what history has taught us.
The Deregulation they supported with their legislation and their blocking of the voices of reason from Bush, McCain and others gave the wizards of industry what they needed to further their profits by creating sound financial securities from these burgeoning failed mortgage products, selling them and leveraging them on the open market without anyone watching. While the Chris Dodds, Chris Cox's and the Barney Franks of the world knew what was happening, they propped them up with federal policies that hid them even deeper into the economic fabric that has caused the current crisis. God has given us the power of free will, so use it to take the time, investigate the true cause and come up with your own conclusion. But in the end I hope you see that the Obama radical agenda will not be what he tells you - it will not be a change we can hope in, it will be a change that will bring this country to its' knees. It will not be the saving grace of the middle class, it will eliminate the middle class and create an elite power structure doling out crumbs to the poor, because it won't have enough to support all it's promises, and it will have created a poor mass who simply expects their daily bread to be doled out by a government that can't make good on its promises.
Watch out what you ask for, you just may get it, unless you wake up and see right through the flashy talk and the feel good message. You can't sit in Rev Wrights church of God Damn america twice a month, each month, each year, for 20 years and not hear, and embrace his ungodly message. To that I say, God bless America!
And the Democratic Party ticket along with a Democratic party majority is not the answer. While Senator Obama has a long history of questionable associations, and his short climb to his Senate seat, his education and early years, hold too much of a connection to corruption, cynical and radical exposure and will have lasting and negative bearing on education, judicial practice, the foundation of our Constitution, and the economic direction. While his past is not unclear, his forward motion is perfectly clear. He says outright, that he plans to create large government. He says in plain language that government under his presidency will take money from the "Top Earners" and decide how and when to "give" it back to those who don't earn. He says that our Constitution is not radical enough to bring on the change of social injustice yet he dines, and intimates himself and his family on a regular basis with radical, hyperracial or criminal elements and is NOT HONEST about these intimations. These dishonest expressions are documented by some areas of the press, and completely avoided by others. Why? Senator Obama is quite open about his plans to create a government that lifts up the middle class, and he is very clear how he hopes to accomplish that, and the tax plan is very clear, but the cut inefficient program plan is not. Also, the new spending plans promised cannot be achieved in our current economic climate. Michelle Obama causes do not reflect John McCain is not Bush
yelladawgNC
October 31, 2008 1:49 PM
Anyone who can defend the Bush administration after what they have done to destroy our country on nearly every front needs to take a long, quiet and restful vacation is a small white room.
My heartfelt prayer is that such people will stay home on Election Day. If they had done so in 2004, we would not be in the mess we are in today.
Giovanni C
November 1, 2008 6:26 AM
MoomyK: "... demand from democratic leadership that the American Dream be spoon fed to even those who could not afford it."
You know, I was preparing to type a rebuttal to your lengthy and distortion-ridden post, but I've decided to just quote this gem for everyone to review. Call me what you like, but there is only so much time in a day, and I'd exhaust myself pointing out all of your fallacies. Your perversely obstinate support of Bush (and your inexplicable reconciliation of greed and Christianity) is almost surreal. I hope someone else here can hold their nose long enough to deconstruct that little Frankenstein, because I'm spent.
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.
I have to admit "Here comes Obama Claus, here comes Obama Claus, right down Obama Claus lane" has a ring to it.
But if the bottom line is that Obama's programs run up to $3.5 trillion we don't have and McCain's run up to $5 trillion we don't have, as the CNN fact checkers suggest, I'll go with Obama. And as I can tell you as someone cashing out a decade's work myself next year, and having passed the $250,000 mark both of the last two years (after a good many years I had income of $3,000 or less doing ministry), the good news is, income taxes aren't especially relevant if you don't mess with capital gains. Taxes are always avoidable if you plan; it seems to me the people who complain about them haven't ever dealt with 'em.
very good and valid points, robert.
but don't get in the way of michele distorting what obama's plans are... she's on a mission to deceive and truth only becomes an obstacle.
"There's no such thing as a free lunch."
apparently michele is unaware of the lifetime of free lunches that aig and bear sterns CEOs and the convicted republican alaska senator have gotten recently... what she meant to say was that there's no such thing as a free lunch for middle class hard workers.
I just noticed the "dupes" tag on this post (and many others).
Please remind me how labeling the people you write about as stupid and gullible -- not just once, but for eternity in cyberspace -- is "Christian," exactly?
"there's no such thing as a free lunch."
Unless you are an oil company or defense contractor under the Bush regime.
Yes, I just read this morning about the additional free foie gras, strawberries and champagne lunch offered to AIG to the tune of $21 billion; that raises their maximum available credit, courtesy of the American taxpayer, to a cool $144 billion under three different programs.
In September, they estimated they'd need $20 billion. Gee, I guess they really, really like the taste of that delicious free lunch! Almost as much as their executives enjoyed their taxpayer-financed trip to the spa after they got their bailout. Oh, the stress, the stress!
WAKE UP, MICHELE! YOU ARE THE GULLIBLE ONE.
In the meantime, another story in today's NY Times lays out in great detail the effects of the Obama and McCain tax plans: "Taxpayers Would Get a Bigger Break, Overall, in Obama's Tax Plan." Anyone who harbors any doubt about which candidate is actually fighting for the middle class should read it before he or she casts a vote.
Yelladawg, I don't pretend to understand Michelle's investment in her political choices. It could be something to do with revenues from this blog, it could be honest conviction, it could be that unflinching commitment thing that comes with a lot of her brand of Christianity. Maybe she just owns a contrarian streak. I do myself. But I'm pretty sure her taxes won't be going up under Obama.
Well, I guess, to be an American does mean that we share the benefit of many liberties - like free speech. It is so interesting to be able to have these opportunities to weigh in your opinion - so many other countries are not so blessed. Having said that, it is so interesting to see that many folks are so blind to what is being said!
George Bush's administration got much good done - and under the circumstances of 9-11 - I don't think that event created an environment propaganda of fear - it was a reality that was allowed by the previous democratic administration. The terrorist organization grew in power during that time, because they went undetected by the administration under Clinton's watch. The terrorists that pulled off 9-11 were in this country for years! The reality is Clinton's first years of presidency flourished from Reagan's policies and the last 2 years Of Clinton's administration were mired in legal woes of Lewinsky and White Water. These distractions and splintered factions led to the possibility of 9-11 - do not forget the first World trade Center bombing.
Say what you will about Bush's Presidency. His tax cuts and early days were clearly on the road to limit government. His handling of 9-11 and declaration of war in Iraq - a war that he expressed would not be won quickly - was approved by House and Senate vote. The facts - not the talking points show that our allies had intel that identified a very clear threat of WMD - and UN Sanctions - inefficiently executed by that wasteful organization - confirmed by Sec'y of State Colin Powell's address to the world, British PM Tony Blair, and others world leaders confirm this. Do your own investigation, don't simply accept what the local news channel feeds you. The good done? Our Democracy learned from History and freed the world from an evil tyrannical murderer, credited with genocide similar to Hitler. The same tyrant who murdered more than 6 million of his own people. Unfortunately, our house and Senate leadership lacked the understanding to manage the executiom of the plan and early military plan was fissured by power struggles within and improperly and untimely funded by congress. Even so, the truth is - today there have been no other attacks despite the adversary, and democracy is growing in Iraq.
This economic debacle was not propagated by Bush's administration. Read the facts. The beginning of this debacle was created by the deregulation of the Clinton presidency, further propegated by demand from democratic leadership that the American Dream be spoon fed to even those who could not afford it, and then fueled in greed by organizations these same democrats sought to support and control (Acorn, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac) to further their agenda. Investigate the facts, take the time to look into the problems, don't just listen to the spoon fed local media. Those in power in the house and senate hid the true spiraling debacle and these very same folks personally benefited by campaign contribution and personal mortgages expanded the Sub Prime fiasco and crafted a bailout that moves against what history has taught us.
The Deregulation they supported with their legislation and their blocking of the voices of reason from Bush, McCain and others gave the wizards of industry what they needed to further their profits by creating sound financial securities from these burgeoning failed mortgage products, selling them and leveraging them on the open market without anyone watching. While the Chris Dodds, Chris Cox's and the Barney Franks of the world knew what was happening, they propped them up with federal policies that hid them even deeper into the economic fabric that has caused the current crisis. God has given us the power of free will, so use it to take the time, investigate the true cause and come up with your own conclusion. But in the end I hope you see that the Obama radical agenda will not be what he tells you - it will not be a change we can hope in, it will be a change that will bring this country to its' knees. It will not be the saving grace of the middle class, it will eliminate the middle class and create an elite power structure doling out crumbs to the poor, because it won't have enough to support all it's promises, and it will have created a poor mass who simply expects their daily bread to be doled out by a government that can't make good on its promises.
Watch out what you ask for, you just may get it, unless you wake up and see right through the flashy talk and the feel good message. You can't sit in Rev Wrights church of God Damn america twice a month, each month, each year, for 20 years and not hear, and embrace his ungodly message. To that I say, God bless America!
And the Democratic Party ticket along with a Democratic party majority is not the answer. While Senator Obama has a long history of questionable associations, and his short climb to his Senate seat, his education and early years, hold too much of a connection to corruption, cynical and radical exposure and will have lasting and negative bearing on education, judicial practice, the foundation of our Constitution, and the economic direction. While his past is not unclear, his forward motion is perfectly clear. He says outright, that he plans to create large government. He says in plain language that government under his presidency will take money from the "Top Earners" and decide how and when to "give" it back to those who don't earn. He says that our Constitution is not radical enough to bring on the change of social injustice yet he dines, and intimates himself and his family on a regular basis with radical, hyperracial or criminal elements and is NOT HONEST about these intimations. These dishonest expressions are documented by some areas of the press, and completely avoided by others. Why? Senator Obama is quite open about his plans to create a government that lifts up the middle class, and he is very clear how he hopes to accomplish that, and the tax plan is very clear, but the cut inefficient program plan is not. Also, the new spending plans promised cannot be achieved in our current economic climate. Michelle Obama causes do not reflect John McCain is not Bush
Anyone who can defend the Bush administration after what they have done to destroy our country on nearly every front needs to take a long, quiet and restful vacation is a small white room.
My heartfelt prayer is that such people will stay home on Election Day. If they had done so in 2004, we would not be in the mess we are in today.
MoomyK: "... demand from democratic leadership that the American Dream be spoon fed to even those who could not afford it."
You know, I was preparing to type a rebuttal to your lengthy and distortion-ridden post, but I've decided to just quote this gem for everyone to review. Call me what you like, but there is only so much time in a day, and I'd exhaust myself pointing out all of your fallacies. Your perversely obstinate support of Bush (and your inexplicable reconciliation of greed and Christianity) is almost surreal. I hope someone else here can hold their nose long enough to deconstruct that little Frankenstein, because I'm spent.
drink deeply., mommyKoolAid. oh yeah, booga booga booga!
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