Palin did it! She was on! Every time Biden spoke, all I heard was blah, blah, blah. And whenever Palin scored a direct hit, he smiled. He was smiling a lot tonight and so was I :-) And I loved...
What a fantasy land you must live in.We must of watched different debates.
Joe (california)
October 2, 2008 11:04 PM
Are you sure you were watching the same debate as I was?
I nearly had to turn the TV off on several occasions because of Palins terrible answers...
CRINGE...
"Joe six pack", winking at the camera... if it was any more manufactured they'd sell it in a tinned can.
Oh and for your crying comment - your a classy lady, making light of someone who's family died in a tragic car accident.
supporter
October 2, 2008 11:04 PM
best political blog i've ever read. Balanced, unbiased-- you cut right to the core issues of the debate. Prose was fantastic as well. BTW, have you considered writing for the New Yorker?
joe
October 2, 2008 11:04 PM
I nearly had to turn the TV off on several occasions because of Palins answers...
CRINGE
come ON..
"Joe six pack", winking at the camera...
Did she think this was a beauty padgent?
TJ
October 2, 2008 11:05 PM
Are you serious?
Micar
October 2, 2008 11:05 PM
I'm sorry but i think you are wrong..the facts are not there..you are incredibly biased - not that its a good thing to support a candidate but i think the truth is plain and simple. The celebrity factor is all that Palin is about.
your_eyes_are_wide_shut
October 2, 2008 11:07 PM
What debate were you watching? She stuck to her recitations and avoiding "debating" issues and opted for her memorized responses instead. I'm not even in America, but the world sees this... trust me.
"She actually asked fairly decent questions" What a surprise for you eh?
Robbie
October 2, 2008 11:08 PM
I'm gonna take the Palin route and refuse to comment on this. I would just like to thank you for your fair, unbiased, and overly complicated article on the debate. Whore.
Theo O'Brien
October 2, 2008 11:12 PM
Wow, by chance I landed on this blog and I'm sorry that I did. This is for nothing except your tasteless comment on Senator Biden crying. Funny? In case you don't have the history: his young daughter and wife died in a car accident just prior to his being sworn into the senate. His two sons were critically injured.
I don't mind ragging on anything he said in this debate, I have some criticisms of his performance myself. But that was out of bounds and a little disturbing. I won't be returning to this blog--I know I won't be missed--but I wanted to let you know that that was offensive and insensitive.
Slam Dunk? Slam Drunk.
October 2, 2008 11:18 PM
Did he have botox. It was funny that he cried and the girl didnt.
You. Are. Classy.
eiser
October 2, 2008 11:23 PM
Biden is emo...lol. Cry more. Strong leader? No, just a baby.
Libs are so pathetic.
Bob
October 2, 2008 11:26 PM
I thought they both did well. This was a better debate than the Presidential debate. Biden was not blah, blah, at least try to be somewhat fair.
EG
October 2, 2008 11:34 PM
Classless. She's a b*tch. More proof that conservatives and Republicans are evil to the core. They're pro-life...until they can laugh at a dead baby. B*tch.
Truegoy
October 2, 2008 11:34 PM
Yes a 'slam dunk'...
After all, you made sure to lower expectations so much that the figurative hoop was level to her navel. i would have said her knees but you did concede that Mrs. Ifill was the consumate professional most of us knew she would be :).
About your outrageous Biden comment (a man showing emotion, the horror!)... i've asked the question before. Why is your blog still under the banner of Beliefnet??? Does your political affiliation trump the values of goodness/fairness/humbleness of your purported religious affiliation?
Moonshadow
October 3, 2008 12:04 AM
I didn't realize that Palin had asked Biden if she could call him "Joe."
She said that as she greeted him and she was very pleasant about it.
I listened to the first 20 minutes or so while driving home in my car and everything she said about Obama made me want to vote for him. Who is she, Balaam?
Listening on radio perhaps made a different impression on me than on y'all watching it on TV.
And, if you get a chance, do yourself a favor and listen to today's Fresh Air -
Michelle, did you write your blog entry before or after the debate?
anonymous reincarnate
October 3, 2008 12:21 AM
well we knew the day palin was announced as vp what michele's view was going to be at this minute.
palin was annoying and danced around most of the questions, but she didn't implode. the right-wing set expectations so low that they could be nothing but surprised with palin's performance. so in that respect, she won.
the problem with that is that's all palin did. biden talked to the middle/working class people and connected with them. palin talked to her base (who was already voting for mccain anyway). obama/biden will get a bigger lift in the polls than mccain/palin. in that respect, biden won, and this is the measure that matters.
i have to agree that conservatives are showing that they're not compassionate and that they're cold and crass to mock biden's emotion regarding the death of his family. sick people, some of you.
when it comes to the bailout, and the mess that got us here, palin regurgitated a lie that michele posted here before, that mccain sounded the alarm on fannie mae and freddie mac reform. but like i said here before, mccain wasn't a sponsor of the bill, it was sen. chuck hagel, and a year later, mccain got on board as a co-sponsor. it's also worth noting that the bill went nowhere, despite being presented to a republican led congress.
the best zinger of the evening was the one that got the biggest laugh - when biden called mccain's health care plan "the ultimate bridge to nowhere." it was also a good move when he acknowledged palin's dealings with the oil companies in alaska, where (again) she agreed with obama/biden's policy to levy a windfall profit tax on them.
palin's sarcasm was off-putting and flippant. while biden strongly disagreed, he at least did so with respect.
anonymous reincarnate
October 3, 2008 12:45 AM
by the way, palin, it's still NUCLEAR, not NUKULER. ugh. i can't have another 4 years of that.
yelladawgNC
October 3, 2008 1:32 AM
Biden won the debate. Palin managed to stick to the talking points that had been drilled into her skull for the past month and to stay on message even if this meant ignoring the moderator's questions. I can't believe no one on TV has commented on the way she dodged Iffil's nuclear question. Palin got that moose in the headlights look on her face and started scrambling incoherently just as she had in the Couric interview. She saved herself by throwing a veritable smoke bomb of "verbage" as she would say, and managed to keep talking until she stumbled her way onto familiar ground.
The other crazy moment was when she said Cheney had the right idea about expanding the legislative power of the vice-president and said she wanted even more power. I take it she wants to run the Senate instead of casting a vote only in case of a tie? Will she have closed meetings with big oil to set energy policy, too? And be the Vice President for Torture?
She was obviously incredibly relieved that she didn't completely screw up and so is her base, which gives you some idea of how little confidence even the conservatives had in her.
And by the way, I think Michele and the rest of the right-wing propaganda machine owe Gwen Iffil a big apology for asserting that she would be incapable of being "fair and balanced" simply because she's written a book about African-American politicians. A book, by the way, whose publication was announced in July. So that whole business about the McCain campaign not knowing anything about it until two nights ago was utter B.S., like 90% of what comes out of that camp. (Did you hear that McCain, after supporting the bailout and urging House Republicans to pass the bill, is now saying it's a swindle, etc., etc.? The guy pees down both legs faster and more frequently than any other politician in history. Seriously, he has to have set a record.)
Biden could step into the presidency at a moment's notice. Palin would be an utter disaster. She has no real grasp of foreign affairs, no historical perspective, no capacity for dealing with complex and sensitive and dangerous situations--she's all slogans and winks and jingoism and cutsey-pie schtick: the consummate beauty pageant contestant--only she'd have actual power.
God save us.
yelladawgNC
October 3, 2008 2:00 AM
Palin thinks our commander in Afghanistan is someone named "McClellan." It is, I believe, McKiernan. And Palin is DEAD WRONG. He absolutely said that tribal involvement in Afghanistan COIN strategy would not work.
McKiernan: "I do think there's a role for traditional tribal authorities and tribal structure in Afghanistan, in the rural areas especially, to play in a community-based sense of security, of connection with the government, and of environmental considerations. But I think that has to be led, that tribal engagement, it has to be led by the Afghan government. I specifically tell my chain of command in ISAF [International Security Assistance Force, the name for NATO's mission in Afghanistan] that I don't want the military to be engaging the tribes to do that. It has to be through the Afghan government to do that. But of course, there's danger in that. There's always, "Is this particular tribe, is it being reached out to for all the right reasons?" That has to be watched very closely."
McKiernan: "First of all, please don't think that I'm saying there's no room for tribal engagement in Afghanistan, because I think it's very necessary. But I think it's much more complex environment of tribal linkages, and intertribal complexity than there is in Iraq. It's not as simple as taking the Sunni Awakening and doing the Pashtun Awakening in Afghanistan. It's much more complex than that."
UPDATE: Ilan Goldenberg sums up the foreign policy portion of the debate:
1. Palin mispronounced our commander in Afghanistan, Dave McKiernan's name and also claimed that he supported the idea of using the Iraq surge as a model for Afghanistan even though just yesterday he said he did not.
2. In response to a question on Iran and Pakistan Palin answered by starting to talk about Iraq. Similar to McCain's obsession on Iraq with complete neglect for all other national security priorities.
3. Palin promised that the Middle East peace process would be a top priority for a McCain administration. But McCain's own advisors last week said that it wouldn't.
4. Palin was unable to distinguish any specific difference between Bush and McCain on any foreign policy issues. Joe Biden made that point very clearly.
5. Sarah Palin seems to rely quite heavily on her notes and on a very limited set of talking points. She has been dodging questions all night long.
Here's the video of her completely embarrassing answer to the question about nuclear weapons. ("The be all and end all," as she puts it.) Please listen to it and tell me what you think she said. I KNOW she completely avoided Iffil's question. For the obvious reason that she had NO CLUE what to say.
Charles Cosimano
October 3, 2008 3:16 AM
"One more such victory and I am undone." Pyrrhus of Epirus after defeating the Romans in a war he ultimately lost.
Which bit of campaign news is more important? Sarah Moosemouth managing to not look like the idiot that she is or John McCain's campaign shutting down in Michigan, ceding a state he expected to win?
Dale
October 3, 2008 8:12 AM
oh my goodness. B!tch? Wh*re? Idiot? What is the matter with you people? This is a Christian blog. There are people who have different points of view, or at least Michele does.
How have you become so invested in electing a POTUS that it is more important to you than treating a brother or sister in Christ with respect? Especialy you with an understanding of the sovreignty of God.
I do not expect to be agreed with here; I followed Michele here from her other blog. But I am so appalled by the viscious lack of common decency, especially among "Christians". It pains me to type the quotation marks.
Many of you commenters are quite comfortable casting disputes against Michele's Christianity and commitment to reformed theology. She is infrequent and sparing of personal attacks in her responses. But look into your hearts and ask forgiveness for your hatred of your brothers and sisters.
How many of you pray for Pres. Bush? I prayed for Pres. Clinton, as I would for Sen. Obama should he be elected. The ugliness here is sinful.
Guy Arthur Thomas
October 3, 2008 8:41 AM
Sarah ATE Joe's lunch and the gave back the baggies for his eye make-up. One way you can know Sarah Palin stomped Joe is the enraged LEFTY LIBS MARXISTS who are filled with terror, rage and hysteria. Look at the comments, they can't handle this so their venom increases. They know Palin handed Joe his back pockets, she took the veteran politician to school.
People remember one thing, Biden failed to prove he is superior to Palin and Palin proved she can go "Joe to Joe" with Biden or any other political veteran. SMACK DOWN!
Next LEFTY LIB MARXIST!
KM
October 3, 2008 9:03 AM
Slam dunk for sure!!!! I wish she had told me that she and McCain were Mavericks sooner. Now I will vote for them for sure:)
MzEllen
October 3, 2008 10:27 AM
Dale, actually, this is quite typical.
Wait...no, I think the name-calling started in this thread around comment #6. Usually it's sooner then that.
I think that Palin was sure of herself, as was Biden. Biden imparted more information than Palin...but Biden also imparted more incorrect information than Palin.
Michele, Biden's tears shows his humanity. Losing a spouse and child is one of the most traumatic things a person of either sex can go through. For the way Biden handled his tragedy, I respect him. I disagree with him on many of his political views, but for that, I respect him.
He lost a child and a spouse at Christmas time. I lost a child on Thanksgiving Day. My husband was in the hospital undergoing cancer treatment from before Thanksgiving until Christmas.
With my history, I have to tell you I am cringing each and every time I read those tears mocked. You may want to (you SHOULD) reconsider and retract the funniness of his tears - because the mocking of Biden's tears is too close to the mocking of my own.
Gene
October 3, 2008 10:31 AM
"Sarah ATE Joe's lunch and the gave back the baggies for his eye make-up. One way you can know Sarah Palin stomped Joe is the enraged LEFTY LIBS MARXISTS who are filled with terror, rage and hysteria. Look at the comments, they can't handle this so their venom increases. They know Palin handed Joe his back pockets, she took the veteran politician to school.
People remember one thing, Biden failed to prove he is superior to Palin and Palin proved she can go "Joe to Joe" with Biden or any other political veteran. SMACK DOWN!
Next LEFTY LIB MARXIST!"
Did you actually watch the debates with the volume loud enough to hear the answers?
DC
October 3, 2008 11:37 AM
Well, this explains a lot -- Michelle prefers memorized catchphrases (regardless of their fit to the questions asked) and snarky attacks to nuanced, thorough, depth of knowledge based on a foundation of achievement. No surprise there; that's a hallmark of the blog. And, as MzEllen points out, you have the gall to trash a man for having tears in his eyes as he speaks of the accident that killed his wife and child and critically injured his other children.
Where in your theological studies is that considered appropriate?
Take a look at factcheck.org or ABC's factcheck of the debate and see who was more accurate on substantive issues.
No matter how many times Palin says "maverick" that doesn't answer the questions about how McCain/Palin are going to be different from the Bush administration McCain has so consistently and overwhelmingly supported or how being a maverick is going to make them effective in Washington. Whether she was talking about global warming or the economy or the war, Palin's attitude of "that was then; this is now" shows that she cannot think clearly about solutions because she does not insist on understanding or accountability for causes. Her blithe disregard of history makes anything she says questionable. She can spout all of the patriotic mantras with all of the can-do spunkiness she has, but I saw no evidence that she has any depth of understanding, largeness of spirit, or intellectual curiousity. Again, no surprise she appeals to you.
Minnie
October 3, 2008 11:54 AM
Michele,
The fact that you see fit to mock Biden's tears shows what a classless, pathetic human being you are, and how your politics trumps your religious faith and your common decency. How dare you. And you have the nerve to call yourself a Christian? Ha! You're just a blind partisan hack and it shows.
Biden lost his first wife and daughter in a car accident just before Christmas in 1972. His two sons were gravely injured. The man nearly resigned from the Senate before ever taking office because, as he said at the time, Delaware could always get another Senator, but his sons couldn't get another father. He started to commute from Delaware to D.C. every day so his boys could see him in the morning, and be tucked into bed by him at night, with his family helping to raise the boys while he was at work.
The fact that Biden still gets choked up about his family loss all these years later, despite being remarried and despite the almost 36 years since the accident shows his humanity, and shows that he wears his heart on his sleeve. That you have chosen to spit on that and mock it shows just how petty and small you really are.
Show some class next time instead of blindly falling to your partisan talking points. It might even show your supposed Christian faith for a change.
Moonshadow
October 3, 2008 12:01 PM
You may want to (you SHOULD) reconsider and retract the funniness of his tears
Let michele be michele, eh?
How many of you pray for Pres. Bush?
At least once a week, corporately, at church. And I try to mean it.
I pray for the pope, too, once a week at church ... and also try to mean it.
How 'bout you, Dale, pray for the pope any? God bless.
MzEllen
October 3, 2008 12:20 PM
Palin did give answers.
"All of the above" on energy is a valid answer. We cannot drill our way OUT of the problem...we can drill our way THROUGH the problem...a stop-gap measure to get us through until alternative energy covers us.
Biden did say "No coal plants here in America. Build them, if they're going to build them, over there."
Nailing Obama down on nuclear energy is like nailing jello to a wall.
From information gained places other than the 90 second - 2 minutes allowed during the debate:
On the Middle East (regardless of how we got there, the question is how do we get out)
Obama wants to set a date and that's the date that the war is over. After the date, he'll leave an unspecified number of troops as a security force.
McCain wants to decide when the war is over based on what's happening in the war. After the war is over (based on circumstances, not the calendar), he'll leave an unspecified number of troops as a security force.
Both Obama and McCain propose sending troops into Afghanistan. McCain, however, also wants NATO to send additional troops as well.
I'm guessing that under a McCain presidency...any suggestion of using torture as an interrogation tool would end (in a comparison of Bush/McCain).
As far as Palin's understanding and accountability - her history in Alaska proves that she does have eye toward accountability.
John
October 3, 2008 12:24 PM
Wow. We must have watched different debates. Most of what I saw from Palin was an attempt at aw-shucks folksiness, a lot of canned phrases, and a bunch of talking points. On a number of occasions, she didn't even answer the question but changed the topic. Her presentation lacked substance, detail, facts, analysis and nuance of any kind. She had no clue about the constitutional duties of the VP! That's not a "gotcha" question; it's a basic job qualification. Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Biden by comparison had detailed answers, numerous facts, clear presentation of the domestic policies he enumerated, and a strong grasp of foreign policy, particularly regarding the real locus of Al Qaida power in the Asian subcontinent (I lived in that area and know the history and can tell you he showed a good grasp of the situation). The guy actually answered most questions. He also has one of the lowest incomes and personal worth in the senate and lives a fairly ordinary lifestyle, so he actually can relate to working people. And his emotion at the recollection of losing his wife and daughter was clearly real, as others have stated. Anyone who attacks him for that, for being human, only diminishes themselves.
MzEllen
October 3, 2008 12:37 PM
Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan.
John
October 3, 2008 4:09 PM
Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan
As an independent, I don't want either. I want someone ethical, knowledgeable and effective. If that's setting the bar too high, then there's little hope for our country ...
anonymous reincarnate
October 4, 2008 12:20 AM
"Biden did say 'No coal plants here in America. Build them, if they're going to build them, over there.'"
yes, he did. but since you're the one that is so sold on people's records, biden has a long record of supporting clean coal. look for yourself if you care about the truth.
"I'm guessing that under a McCain presidency...any suggestion of using torture as an interrogation tool would end (in a comparison of Bush/McCain)."
except if you're employed by the cia, in which case mccain supports torture (just like bush... in a comparison of bush/mcbush).
"Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan."
except for her answers regarding what a v.p. should do:
IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?
PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. Yeah, so I do agree with him that we have a lot of flexibility in there, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation. And it is my executive experience that is partly to be attributed to my pick as V.P. with McCain, not only as a governor, but earlier on as a mayor, as an oil and gas regulator, as a business owner. It is those years of experience on an executive level that will be put to good use in the White House also.
scary thought. this is why it's important to elect people who know what it is they are swearing to protect (as in the constitution) before they get there.
anonymous reincarnate
October 4, 2008 12:33 AM
"Listening on radio perhaps made a different impression on me than on y'all watching it on TV."
that's because by listening on the radio you missed the visual charm of the *wink* *wink* in each answer. like, "you know i don't have the qualifications, but, hey, ain't i the cutest thing when i talk all folksy and wink atcha? yeah, you betcha!"
Guy Arthur Thomas
October 4, 2008 8:38 AM
It is now being suggested, after studying Joe Biden's ALIEN EYE look during the debate that he might...he just might be part ALIEN. Who knows but man Joe, what is with those ALIEN EYES?
Next Please!
MzEllen
October 4, 2008 10:14 AM
this is why it's important to elect people who know what it is they are swearing to protect (as in the constitution) before they get there.
You are correct. Somebody should educate Joe Biden.
Let's see...
Biden: The VP presides over the Senate only when there is a tie (wrong: the VP VOTES only when there is a tie. The VP is the President of the Senate at all times and may preside whenever he or she wishes to)
Biden: The VP is part of the Administrative Branch per article I (wrong: article I outlines the jobs of the Legislative Branch and the duties of the VP in relation to that branch.
The salary of the VP is the same as the other leaders of the Legislative and Judicial branches (Speaker of the House and Chief Justice). The pension of the VP is dependent not on their tenure as VP, but as President of the Senate. As with other members of the Senate, the VP is fully vested in his or her pension after 5 years - a single term VP does not get a pension.
It is difficult to give Biden the points on this one.
anonymous reincarnate
October 5, 2008 1:14 PM
"As far as Palin's understanding and accountability - her history in Alaska proves that she does have eye toward accountability."
yeah, she has an eye on it alright... over her shoulder as she turns her back to it.
... by trying to stop an investigation into her abuse of the office and her powers as governor (an investigation that she earlier said, "hold me accountable" and promised her full cooperation). that kind of accountability is the same as what we've had for 8 years with bush/cheney/rumsfeld/"hekuva job" brown/gonzales/...
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What a fantasy land you must live in.We must of watched different debates.
Are you sure you were watching the same debate as I was?
I nearly had to turn the TV off on several occasions because of Palins terrible answers...
CRINGE...
"Joe six pack", winking at the camera... if it was any more manufactured they'd sell it in a tinned can.
Oh and for your crying comment - your a classy lady, making light of someone who's family died in a tragic car accident.
best political blog i've ever read. Balanced, unbiased-- you cut right to the core issues of the debate. Prose was fantastic as well. BTW, have you considered writing for the New Yorker?
I nearly had to turn the TV off on several occasions because of Palins answers...
CRINGE
come ON..
"Joe six pack", winking at the camera...
Did she think this was a beauty padgent?
Are you serious?
I'm sorry but i think you are wrong..the facts are not there..you are incredibly biased - not that its a good thing to support a candidate but i think the truth is plain and simple. The celebrity factor is all that Palin is about.
What debate were you watching? She stuck to her recitations and avoiding "debating" issues and opted for her memorized responses instead. I'm not even in America, but the world sees this... trust me.
"She actually asked fairly decent questions" What a surprise for you eh?
I'm gonna take the Palin route and refuse to comment on this. I would just like to thank you for your fair, unbiased, and overly complicated article on the debate. Whore.
Wow, by chance I landed on this blog and I'm sorry that I did. This is for nothing except your tasteless comment on Senator Biden crying. Funny? In case you don't have the history: his young daughter and wife died in a car accident just prior to his being sworn into the senate. His two sons were critically injured.
I don't mind ragging on anything he said in this debate, I have some criticisms of his performance myself. But that was out of bounds and a little disturbing. I won't be returning to this blog--I know I won't be missed--but I wanted to let you know that that was offensive and insensitive.
Did he have botox. It was funny that he cried and the girl didnt.
You. Are. Classy.
Biden is emo...lol. Cry more. Strong leader? No, just a baby.
Libs are so pathetic.
I thought they both did well. This was a better debate than the Presidential debate. Biden was not blah, blah, at least try to be somewhat fair.
Classless. She's a b*tch. More proof that conservatives and Republicans are evil to the core. They're pro-life...until they can laugh at a dead baby. B*tch.
Yes a 'slam dunk'...
After all, you made sure to lower expectations so much that the figurative hoop was level to her navel. i would have said her knees but you did concede that Mrs. Ifill was the consumate professional most of us knew she would be :).
About your outrageous Biden comment (a man showing emotion, the horror!)... i've asked the question before. Why is your blog still under the banner of Beliefnet??? Does your political affiliation trump the values of goodness/fairness/humbleness of your purported religious affiliation?
I didn't realize that Palin had asked Biden if she could call him "Joe."
She said that as she greeted him and she was very pleasant about it.
I listened to the first 20 minutes or so while driving home in my car and everything she said about Obama made me want to vote for him. Who is she, Balaam?
Listening on radio perhaps made a different impression on me than on y'all watching it on TV.
And, if you get a chance, do yourself a favor and listen to today's Fresh Air -
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=95285396
Michelle, did you write your blog entry before or after the debate?
well we knew the day palin was announced as vp what michele's view was going to be at this minute.
palin was annoying and danced around most of the questions, but she didn't implode. the right-wing set expectations so low that they could be nothing but surprised with palin's performance. so in that respect, she won.
the problem with that is that's all palin did. biden talked to the middle/working class people and connected with them. palin talked to her base (who was already voting for mccain anyway). obama/biden will get a bigger lift in the polls than mccain/palin. in that respect, biden won, and this is the measure that matters.
i have to agree that conservatives are showing that they're not compassionate and that they're cold and crass to mock biden's emotion regarding the death of his family. sick people, some of you.
when it comes to the bailout, and the mess that got us here, palin regurgitated a lie that michele posted here before, that mccain sounded the alarm on fannie mae and freddie mac reform. but like i said here before, mccain wasn't a sponsor of the bill, it was sen. chuck hagel, and a year later, mccain got on board as a co-sponsor. it's also worth noting that the bill went nowhere, despite being presented to a republican led congress.
the best zinger of the evening was the one that got the biggest laugh - when biden called mccain's health care plan "the ultimate bridge to nowhere." it was also a good move when he acknowledged palin's dealings with the oil companies in alaska, where (again) she agreed with obama/biden's policy to levy a windfall profit tax on them.
palin's sarcasm was off-putting and flippant. while biden strongly disagreed, he at least did so with respect.
by the way, palin, it's still NUCLEAR, not NUKULER. ugh. i can't have another 4 years of that.
Biden won the debate. Palin managed to stick to the talking points that had been drilled into her skull for the past month and to stay on message even if this meant ignoring the moderator's questions. I can't believe no one on TV has commented on the way she dodged Iffil's nuclear question. Palin got that moose in the headlights look on her face and started scrambling incoherently just as she had in the Couric interview. She saved herself by throwing a veritable smoke bomb of "verbage" as she would say, and managed to keep talking until she stumbled her way onto familiar ground.
The other crazy moment was when she said Cheney had the right idea about expanding the legislative power of the vice-president and said she wanted even more power. I take it she wants to run the Senate instead of casting a vote only in case of a tie? Will she have closed meetings with big oil to set energy policy, too? And be the Vice President for Torture?
She was obviously incredibly relieved that she didn't completely screw up and so is her base, which gives you some idea of how little confidence even the conservatives had in her.
And by the way, I think Michele and the rest of the right-wing propaganda machine owe Gwen Iffil a big apology for asserting that she would be incapable of being "fair and balanced" simply because she's written a book about African-American politicians. A book, by the way, whose publication was announced in July. So that whole business about the McCain campaign not knowing anything about it until two nights ago was utter B.S., like 90% of what comes out of that camp. (Did you hear that McCain, after supporting the bailout and urging House Republicans to pass the bill, is now saying it's a swindle, etc., etc.? The guy pees down both legs faster and more frequently than any other politician in history. Seriously, he has to have set a record.)
Biden could step into the presidency at a moment's notice. Palin would be an utter disaster. She has no real grasp of foreign affairs, no historical perspective, no capacity for dealing with complex and sensitive and dangerous situations--she's all slogans and winks and jingoism and cutsey-pie schtick: the consummate beauty pageant contestant--only she'd have actual power.
God save us.
Palin thinks our commander in Afghanistan is someone named "McClellan." It is, I believe, McKiernan. And Palin is DEAD WRONG. He absolutely said that tribal involvement in Afghanistan COIN strategy would not work.
McKiernan: "I do think there's a role for traditional tribal authorities and tribal structure in Afghanistan, in the rural areas especially, to play in a community-based sense of security, of connection with the government, and of environmental considerations. But I think that has to be led, that tribal engagement, it has to be led by the Afghan government. I specifically tell my chain of command in ISAF [International Security Assistance Force, the name for NATO's mission in Afghanistan] that I don't want the military to be engaging the tribes to do that. It has to be through the Afghan government to do that. But of course, there's danger in that. There's always, "Is this particular tribe, is it being reached out to for all the right reasons?" That has to be watched very closely."
McKiernan: "First of all, please don't think that I'm saying there's no room for tribal engagement in Afghanistan, because I think it's very necessary. But I think it's much more complex environment of tribal linkages, and intertribal complexity than there is in Iraq. It's not as simple as taking the Sunni Awakening and doing the Pashtun Awakening in Afghanistan. It's much more complex than that."
UPDATE: Ilan Goldenberg sums up the foreign policy portion of the debate:
1. Palin mispronounced our commander in Afghanistan, Dave McKiernan's name and also claimed that he supported the idea of using the Iraq surge as a model for Afghanistan even though just yesterday he said he did not.
2. In response to a question on Iran and Pakistan Palin answered by starting to talk about Iraq. Similar to McCain's obsession on Iraq with complete neglect for all other national security priorities.
3. Palin promised that the Middle East peace process would be a top priority for a McCain administration. But McCain's own advisors last week said that it wouldn't.
4. Palin was unable to distinguish any specific difference between Bush and McCain on any foreign policy issues. Joe Biden made that point very clearly.
5. Sarah Palin seems to rely quite heavily on her notes and on a very limited set of talking points. She has been dodging questions all night long.
www.huffingtonpost.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvsPFndSzNU
Here's the video of her completely embarrassing answer to the question about nuclear weapons. ("The be all and end all," as she puts it.) Please listen to it and tell me what you think she said. I KNOW she completely avoided Iffil's question. For the obvious reason that she had NO CLUE what to say.
"One more such victory and I am undone." Pyrrhus of Epirus after defeating the Romans in a war he ultimately lost.
Which bit of campaign news is more important? Sarah Moosemouth managing to not look like the idiot that she is or John McCain's campaign shutting down in Michigan, ceding a state he expected to win?
oh my goodness. B!tch? Wh*re? Idiot? What is the matter with you people? This is a Christian blog. There are people who have different points of view, or at least Michele does.
How have you become so invested in electing a POTUS that it is more important to you than treating a brother or sister in Christ with respect? Especialy you with an understanding of the sovreignty of God.
I do not expect to be agreed with here; I followed Michele here from her other blog. But I am so appalled by the viscious lack of common decency, especially among "Christians". It pains me to type the quotation marks.
Many of you commenters are quite comfortable casting disputes against Michele's Christianity and commitment to reformed theology. She is infrequent and sparing of personal attacks in her responses. But look into your hearts and ask forgiveness for your hatred of your brothers and sisters.
How many of you pray for Pres. Bush? I prayed for Pres. Clinton, as I would for Sen. Obama should he be elected. The ugliness here is sinful.
Sarah ATE Joe's lunch and the gave back the baggies for his eye make-up. One way you can know Sarah Palin stomped Joe is the enraged LEFTY LIBS MARXISTS who are filled with terror, rage and hysteria. Look at the comments, they can't handle this so their venom increases. They know Palin handed Joe his back pockets, she took the veteran politician to school.
People remember one thing, Biden failed to prove he is superior to Palin and Palin proved she can go "Joe to Joe" with Biden or any other political veteran. SMACK DOWN!
Next LEFTY LIB MARXIST!
Slam dunk for sure!!!! I wish she had told me that she and McCain were Mavericks sooner. Now I will vote for them for sure:)
Dale, actually, this is quite typical.
Wait...no, I think the name-calling started in this thread around comment #6. Usually it's sooner then that.
I think that Palin was sure of herself, as was Biden. Biden imparted more information than Palin...but Biden also imparted more incorrect information than Palin.
Michele, Biden's tears shows his humanity. Losing a spouse and child is one of the most traumatic things a person of either sex can go through. For the way Biden handled his tragedy, I respect him. I disagree with him on many of his political views, but for that, I respect him.
He lost a child and a spouse at Christmas time. I lost a child on Thanksgiving Day. My husband was in the hospital undergoing cancer treatment from before Thanksgiving until Christmas.
With my history, I have to tell you I am cringing each and every time I read those tears mocked. You may want to (you SHOULD) reconsider and retract the funniness of his tears - because the mocking of Biden's tears is too close to the mocking of my own.
"Sarah ATE Joe's lunch and the gave back the baggies for his eye make-up. One way you can know Sarah Palin stomped Joe is the enraged LEFTY LIBS MARXISTS who are filled with terror, rage and hysteria. Look at the comments, they can't handle this so their venom increases. They know Palin handed Joe his back pockets, she took the veteran politician to school.
People remember one thing, Biden failed to prove he is superior to Palin and Palin proved she can go "Joe to Joe" with Biden or any other political veteran. SMACK DOWN!
Next LEFTY LIB MARXIST!"
Did you actually watch the debates with the volume loud enough to hear the answers?
Well, this explains a lot -- Michelle prefers memorized catchphrases (regardless of their fit to the questions asked) and snarky attacks to nuanced, thorough, depth of knowledge based on a foundation of achievement. No surprise there; that's a hallmark of the blog. And, as MzEllen points out, you have the gall to trash a man for having tears in his eyes as he speaks of the accident that killed his wife and child and critically injured his other children.
Where in your theological studies is that considered appropriate?
Take a look at factcheck.org or ABC's factcheck of the debate and see who was more accurate on substantive issues.
No matter how many times Palin says "maverick" that doesn't answer the questions about how McCain/Palin are going to be different from the Bush administration McCain has so consistently and overwhelmingly supported or how being a maverick is going to make them effective in Washington. Whether she was talking about global warming or the economy or the war, Palin's attitude of "that was then; this is now" shows that she cannot think clearly about solutions because she does not insist on understanding or accountability for causes. Her blithe disregard of history makes anything she says questionable. She can spout all of the patriotic mantras with all of the can-do spunkiness she has, but I saw no evidence that she has any depth of understanding, largeness of spirit, or intellectual curiousity. Again, no surprise she appeals to you.
Michele,
The fact that you see fit to mock Biden's tears shows what a classless, pathetic human being you are, and how your politics trumps your religious faith and your common decency. How dare you. And you have the nerve to call yourself a Christian? Ha! You're just a blind partisan hack and it shows.
Biden lost his first wife and daughter in a car accident just before Christmas in 1972. His two sons were gravely injured. The man nearly resigned from the Senate before ever taking office because, as he said at the time, Delaware could always get another Senator, but his sons couldn't get another father. He started to commute from Delaware to D.C. every day so his boys could see him in the morning, and be tucked into bed by him at night, with his family helping to raise the boys while he was at work.
The fact that Biden still gets choked up about his family loss all these years later, despite being remarried and despite the almost 36 years since the accident shows his humanity, and shows that he wears his heart on his sleeve. That you have chosen to spit on that and mock it shows just how petty and small you really are.
Show some class next time instead of blindly falling to your partisan talking points. It might even show your supposed Christian faith for a change.
You may want to (you SHOULD) reconsider and retract the funniness of his tears
Let michele be michele, eh?
How many of you pray for Pres. Bush?
At least once a week, corporately, at church. And I try to mean it.
I pray for the pope, too, once a week at church ... and also try to mean it.
How 'bout you, Dale, pray for the pope any? God bless.
Palin did give answers.
"All of the above" on energy is a valid answer. We cannot drill our way OUT of the problem...we can drill our way THROUGH the problem...a stop-gap measure to get us through until alternative energy covers us.
Biden did say "No coal plants here in America. Build them, if they're going to build them, over there."
Nailing Obama down on nuclear energy is like nailing jello to a wall.
From information gained places other than the 90 second - 2 minutes allowed during the debate:
On the Middle East (regardless of how we got there, the question is how do we get out)
Obama wants to set a date and that's the date that the war is over. After the date, he'll leave an unspecified number of troops as a security force.
McCain wants to decide when the war is over based on what's happening in the war. After the war is over (based on circumstances, not the calendar), he'll leave an unspecified number of troops as a security force.
Both Obama and McCain propose sending troops into Afghanistan. McCain, however, also wants NATO to send additional troops as well.
I'm guessing that under a McCain presidency...any suggestion of using torture as an interrogation tool would end (in a comparison of Bush/McCain).
As far as Palin's understanding and accountability - her history in Alaska proves that she does have eye toward accountability.
Wow. We must have watched different debates. Most of what I saw from Palin was an attempt at aw-shucks folksiness, a lot of canned phrases, and a bunch of talking points. On a number of occasions, she didn't even answer the question but changed the topic. Her presentation lacked substance, detail, facts, analysis and nuance of any kind. She had no clue about the constitutional duties of the VP! That's not a "gotcha" question; it's a basic job qualification. Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Biden by comparison had detailed answers, numerous facts, clear presentation of the domestic policies he enumerated, and a strong grasp of foreign policy, particularly regarding the real locus of Al Qaida power in the Asian subcontinent (I lived in that area and know the history and can tell you he showed a good grasp of the situation). The guy actually answered most questions. He also has one of the lowest incomes and personal worth in the senate and lives a fairly ordinary lifestyle, so he actually can relate to working people. And his emotion at the recollection of losing his wife and daughter was clearly real, as others have stated. Anyone who attacks him for that, for being human, only diminishes themselves.
Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan.
Nothing I saw indicated that she's prepared for the complex, diverse and multifacted issues and situations she will face as VP.
Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan
As an independent, I don't want either. I want someone ethical, knowledgeable and effective. If that's setting the bar too high, then there's little hope for our country ...
"Biden did say 'No coal plants here in America. Build them, if they're going to build them, over there.'"
yes, he did. but since you're the one that is so sold on people's records, biden has a long record of supporting clean coal. look for yourself if you care about the truth.
"I'm guessing that under a McCain presidency...any suggestion of using torture as an interrogation tool would end (in a comparison of Bush/McCain)."
except if you're employed by the cia, in which case mccain supports torture (just like bush... in a comparison of bush/mcbush).
"Frankly (and I say this as a conservative) after Cheney, a "do-nothing" VP sounds like a pretty good plan."
except for her answers regarding what a v.p. should do:
scary thought. this is why it's important to elect people who know what it is they are swearing to protect (as in the constitution) before they get there.
"Listening on radio perhaps made a different impression on me than on y'all watching it on TV."
that's because by listening on the radio you missed the visual charm of the *wink* *wink* in each answer. like, "you know i don't have the qualifications, but, hey, ain't i the cutest thing when i talk all folksy and wink atcha? yeah, you betcha!"
It is now being suggested, after studying Joe Biden's ALIEN EYE look during the debate that he might...he just might be part ALIEN. Who knows but man Joe, what is with those ALIEN EYES?
Next Please!
this is why it's important to elect people who know what it is they are swearing to protect (as in the constitution) before they get there.
You are correct. Somebody should educate Joe Biden.
Let's see...
Biden: The VP presides over the Senate only when there is a tie (wrong: the VP VOTES only when there is a tie. The VP is the President of the Senate at all times and may preside whenever he or she wishes to)
Biden: The VP is part of the Administrative Branch per article I (wrong: article I outlines the jobs of the Legislative Branch and the duties of the VP in relation to that branch.
The salary of the VP is the same as the other leaders of the Legislative and Judicial branches (Speaker of the House and Chief Justice). The pension of the VP is dependent not on their tenure as VP, but as President of the Senate. As with other members of the Senate, the VP is fully vested in his or her pension after 5 years - a single term VP does not get a pension.
It is difficult to give Biden the points on this one.
"As far as Palin's understanding and accountability - her history in Alaska proves that she does have eye toward accountability."
yeah, she has an eye on it alright... over her shoulder as she turns her back to it.
... by trying to stop an investigation into her abuse of the office and her powers as governor (an investigation that she earlier said, "hold me accountable" and promised her full cooperation). that kind of accountability is the same as what we've had for 8 years with bush/cheney/rumsfeld/"hekuva job" brown/gonzales/...
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