Smackdown! Advantage Benedict.

Identical twins develop from the same fertilized egg. Unless you believe identical twins share one soul, the ensoulment does not occur at conception. That is the sticking point between science and Catholic doctrine. There is an argument to be made that just because life does not begin at conception, it is still sacred, but that is a different argument–and bishops themselves have difficulty with what is Catholic doctrine on this point.

Dear Robert:
Human Life begins at Human conception. Twins,
Octuplets, whatever, are all alive and all human.
To end innocent life is wrong, that’s why abortion is evil.
There is no difficulty here.
Ed

Human Life begins at Human conception. Twins,
Octuplets, whatever, are all alive and all human.
To end innocent life is wrong, that’s why abortion is evil.
Not all religions believe that life begins at conception or that abortion is evil.
So trying to force your religious viewpoints on others is wrong. There is more to the world than the viewpoint of certain Xians.
There is no difficulty here.

Scott, it should be no surprise that a Christian blogger embraces the values that most “Xians” hold. For a Christian to state on a Christian blog that “To end innocent life is wrong, that’s why abortion is evil.” is within what should be expected.

I’m glad to hear you approve the pope telling American politicians their business. Refreshing. Oh, again, it’s when you happen to agree and don’t expect he’ll change her mind.
When does Biden visit?

Sorry to post again so quickly … but I do like this bit from the NCR article:
Judy Brown, the president of the ardently pro-life American Life League, issued a statement asserting, “The only photo-op I hope to see out of Rep. Pelosi’s meeting with the Holy Father Wednesday is the House Speaker in the confessional line.”
I wouldn’t want His Holiness hearing my confession.

Pope Benedict does his job well. Speaker of the House Pelosi does her job well. The Pope speaks for his RC Sheep, and Pelosi speaks for every American who lives in America and believes in many faiths, or in no faith. He chose his role in this life and she has chosen hers.

I admire Nancy Pelosi and her confidence in her position. Why SHOULD she have to agree with the Big Dude? She is a woman who thinks…and Benny certainly wasn’t going to NOT take advantage of her visit to state yet again his/the churche’s stance on abortion.
As for Judie Brown wanting to see Pelosi in the confessional line? She would expect to hear what? Pelosi repent her position? I hardly think so!!!

Pelosi repent her position? I hardly think so!!!
Yeah, I’m not sure how that would work in the long run … wishful thinking on Brown’s part.

Scott R, the question I was addressing wasn’t whether you can make a consistent moral argument about abortion, but whether the Pope can. The Pope has some difficulties. If you don’t, great for you. I am opposed to abortion myself, but I do recognize there are some times even innocent lives cannot be saved (ectopic pregnancy, for example).

The Pope is a Dope!!! Doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church have enough problems with its child molesting and Holocaust denying priests without wanting to recriminilize abortion rights for women? Perhaps one of these days, the RCC will step into the 20TH CENTURY!!!

It’s very simple…you can’t believe in abortion a.k.a MURDER and be Catholic. She should stop claiming that she is an ardent Catholic and go find another demonination that subcribes to her point of view. It’s that simple.

and you can’t use birth control and be a catholic. and you can’t drink mountain dew and be a mormon. and you can’t eat pork and be an adventist. and you must believe that the bible is the word of god or you can’t be a christian. right?
rudy, who are you to tell people what they can and cannot be? somehow i doubt that you’re perfect.
many organized religions change their doctrines over time. the mormon church eliminated polygamy (and for the most part, racism). the catholic church adopted the concept of limbo and now waver on it. the church once held that the stars revolved around the earth and that the earth was flat. there’s no reason why the catholic church cannot one day realize that they’re wrong on this issue, too.

Dale
February 19, 2009 6:45 AM
Typical abuse of language to make an ad hominem attack. Microevolution, that is, minor alterations in DNA of life forms which cause changes within kinds, is indeed scientific. Macroevolution, that is, the theory that claims all species evolved from a single life form, is not the same thing.
Boris says: The scientific imbecility of people like Dale is just off the charts. In no other country in the world are people so completely ignorant of science. Macroevolution is simply microevolution over thousands and millions of years. We know that the belief that lifeforms cannot evolve beyond their “kind” is based directly and solely upon the Book of Genesis, which uses the term “kind” in the story of Creation. The scientifically recognized method of taxonomical classification is the familiar Linnean system: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus and species. Each step of the Linnean ladder represents a meaningful, clearly defined differentiation among anatomical structures. The notion of “kind” is a biblical doctrine and represents no legitimate scientific distinction among lifeforms. Anyone who uses the word “kinds” to describe species of animals is using the language of religion NOT science.
There is plenty of room for scientific debate on theories. But some theories, that is, those that find an inference of an active creator involved in planning and developing his creation,
Boris says: A scientific theory must also be capable of being falsified. That is, there must be some set of circumstances such that, if they were to occur, the theory would fail to explain the facts. Scientists expend a great deal of time and effort devising tests of falsification, for any theory incapable of being falsified, such as that God exists or that people have souls, is not a scientific one
Perhaps those who wish this theory to be banned from schools are uncomfortable with the inferences to a Creator that may be made from said theory. But that is neither scientific nor open-minded.
Boris says: In contrast, the methods and claims of creationists are not subject to experimentation, prediction, revision, or falsification. To them, these pursuits are irrelevant, because they believe they possess the “truth” as set forth in the Bible. In their view, scientific theory or evidence that contradicts the Bible must be in error, because the Bible (actually their particular interpretation of the Bible) cannot be mistaken. Religious dogma does not belong is a science class. There are no CHRISIAN colleges or universities that teach science that discuss a creator of any kind in their science classes. Yet religious fanatics like Dale want to force their religious dogma and lies into public school science classes.
People like Dale need to go back and study the court cases in each of our states that rendered decisions that the Bible must be removed from the public schools. In each and every case the Bible was removed NOT because it was a religious holy book but because the plaintiffs proved beyond any doubt in the Court’s mind that the Bible was chock full of scientific and historical inaccuracies and outright lies. I am very familiar with most of these cases as one of my distant Jewish ancestors was responsible for getting the KJV removed from the public schools in Minnesota. I am VERY proud of that fact. Dale’s religious dogma, lies, nonsense and scientific imbecility belong in a church, not in a public school science class.
Boris says:
MzEllen
February 19, 2009 7:18 AM
It seems as though non-Christians would like to confer all sins and errors of all previous non-Christians to all living Christians.
Perhaps, then, we should confer all sins and errors of all previous non-Christians to all living non-Christians.
Stalin, Khan, Mao?
Christians Fundamentalists have been devilishly successful in their propaganda campaign that all communists are atheists, and that all atheists are communists. But these “facts” are altogether erroneous. First, I strongly challenge the assumption that communism is a truly atheistic philosophy. It seems to me that the omniscient god of Christianity is simply replaced by the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god of Christianity is simply replaced by the omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god of the State. Under the communistic system, the State is supposedly all-wise, all-good and all powerful. Communism is therefore just as nutty as religion in its unrealistic, Utopian fantasies and pie-in-the-sky promises.
Undeniably, some communist nations, such as Stalinist Russia and Maoist China, have been guilty of horrible human rights abuses. No atheist I ever met defends such political repression! Not even the current leaders of Russia and China defend the barbaric actions of their predecessors. But these past human rights abuses invariably stemmed from the leadership’s power-mad political ambitions, rather than from an academic or philosophical conviction that religion contradicted the laws of physics. Atheists believe in both freedom of religion and freedom from religion, as each individual chooses. If atheism is hypothetically responsible for political repression in China, then Christianity is certainly responsible for the atrocities of the Inquisition, the Crusades and witch burnings. Is it really fair to condemn a school of thought for the perversions and abuses of its teachings?
Stan
February 19, 2009 9:26 AM
http://birdsoftheair.blogspot.com
I’m fascinated by this leap: “anyone who doesn’t accept evolution” = “you don’t believe in science.” If you don’t believe in the current theory of Evolution, “you don’t believe in germs”? So much for rational thinking.
Boris says: The fact is that the very same people who deny evolution also don’t believe in modern cosmology, geology, oceanography, anthropology, zoology, cell theory, quantum physics, archaeology (because it PROVES the Bible is full of mythology), astronomy and the rest of science as well. Ask any creationist and they will deny ay the Big Bang which has absolutely nothing to do at all with biological evolution. And it seems almost superfluous to point out that the only people claiming not to believe in evolution are the exact same people from the exact same cult that has always denied all new science: Bible believers and no one else. Bible believers have been on the wrong side of every scientific discovery and theory ever since the Bible was written.
Given, however, that the paper is satirical, I would suspect and suggest that this quote should be taken as being aimed at humor rather than intended as literal. Surely it doesn’t make genuine sense at face value to anyone.
ZZ
February 19, 2009 10:29 AM
ZZ said: This guy’s problem is that he doesn’t understand the difference between science and metaphysics, and he just assumes all Christians are young-earth creationsists. Nothing new here, nor funny.
Boris says: Most Christians accept evolution, as has the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN academic community. The asininity of creationism and its pseudoscientific hoax ID is that evolution is taught is every Christian college and university with a legitimate science department and creationism and ID are taught nowhere, because there is nothing to teach. Like theology itself, NONE of these things are even subjects. They are religious dogma and nonsense believed by only the most ignorant and arrogant morons on the planet: American Christians.
The Vatican and its popes and cardinals have been a virtual fountain of stupidity and ignorance for 2000 years. Check out these totally retarded quotes from some of the stupidest men who have ever existed on this planet:
“The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end when obstinate heretics disturb the ecclesiastical order.” – Pope Leo XIII (1810-1903)
“The Pope may act outside the law, above the law, and against the law.” – St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Italian cardinal.
“The people want to be deceived. Let them be deceived.” – Carlo cardinal Caraffa (1519-1561)
“The bliss of the elect in heaven would not be perfect unless they were able to look across the abyss and enjoy the agonies of their brethren in eternal fire.” Pope Gregory I (540-604)
“From the polluted fountain [of] that absurd and erroneous doctrine, or rather raving, which claims and defends liberty of conscience for everyone… come, in a word, the worst plague of all – liberty of opinions and free speech.” – Pope Gregory VI
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” – Adolph Hitler
“In 1936… Hitler assured his lordship [Bishop Berning of Osnabruch] there was no fundamental difference between National Socialism and the Catholic Church. Had not the church, he argued, looked on the Jews as parasites and shut them in ghettos? ‘I am only doing,’ he boasted, ‘What the church has done for fifteen hundred years, only more effectively.”
“We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.” St. Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Spanish founder of the Jesuit order.
“If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him.” Pope Paul IV (1476-1559)
“Mussolini is a wonderful man. Do you hear me? A wonderful man.” – Pope Pius XI (1857-1939)
“One Galileo in two thousand years is enough.” – Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
“I saw a documentary on Stephen Hawking, where he said he had a meeting with the pope, and that the pope said to him that it’s alright to explore the universe, but not to look into the origins of the big bang, for that would be questioning God’s story of creation… Wow… Just imagine that one of the greatest minds to come along in the last few hundred years, and he’s taking directions from a cult leader that wears big goofy hats.” – Joe Rogan
“The Popes, like jesus, are conceived by thei mothers through the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost. All Popes are a certain species of man-gods… all powers in Heaven, as well as on earth, are given to them.” – Pope Stephen V Pope from 885 to 891
“I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people.” Mother Teresa
“You [women] are the gateway of the devil… Because of what you deserve, that is, death, even the Son of God had to die… Women, you ought to go about clad in mourning and rays, your eyes filled with tears of remorse, to make us forget you have been mankind’s destruction.” Tertulian, father of the Latin Church.
Of course the Protestants are even stupider than the Catholics as Protestantism is the idiot bastard child of Christianity.
“Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.” – Martin Luther
Trust me Luther, you anti-Semitic moron, it has been.

The Vatican and its popes and cardinals have been a virtual fountain of stupidity and ignorance for 2000 years. Check out these totally retarded quotes from some of the stupidest men who have ever existed on this planet:
“The death sentence is a necessary and efficacious means for the Church to attain its end when obstinate heretics disturb the ecclesiastical order.” – Pope Leo XIII (1810-1903)
“The Pope may act outside the law, above the law, and against the law.” – St. Robert Bellarmine (1542-1621), Italian cardinal.
“The people want to be deceived. Let them be deceived.” – Carlo cardinal Caraffa (1519-1561)
“The bliss of the elect in heaven would not be perfect unless they were able to look across the abyss and enjoy the agonies of their brethren in eternal fire.” Pope Gregory I (540-604)
“From the polluted fountain [of] that absurd and erroneous doctrine, or rather raving, which claims and defends liberty of conscience for everyone… come, in a word, the worst plague of all – liberty of opinions and free speech.” – Pope Gregory VI
“I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.” – Adolph Hitler
“In 1936… Hitler assured his lordship [Bishop Berning of Osnabruch] there was no fundamental difference between National Socialism and the Catholic Church. Had not the church, he argued, looked on the Jews as parasites and shut them in ghettos? ‘I am only doing,’ he boasted, ‘What the church has done for fifteen hundred years, only more effectively.”
“We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the Church so decides.” St. Ignatius Loyola (1491-1556) Spanish founder of the Jesuit order.
“If my own father were a heretic, I would personally gather the wood to burn him.” Pope Paul IV (1476-1559)
“Mussolini is a wonderful man. Do you hear me? A wonderful man.” – Pope Pius XI (1857-1939)
“One Galileo in two thousand years is enough.” – Pope Pius XII (1876-1958)
“I saw a documentary on Stephen Hawking, where he said he had a meeting with the pope, and that the pope said to him that it’s alright to explore the universe, but not to look into the origins of the big bang, for that would be questioning God’s story of creation… Wow… Just imagine that one of the greatest minds to come along in the last few hundred years, and he’s taking directions from a cult leader that wears big goofy hats.” – Joe Rogan
“The Popes, like jesus, are conceived by thei mothers through the overshadowing of the Holy Ghost. All Popes are a certain species of man-gods… all powers in Heaven, as well as on earth, are given to them.” – Pope Stephen V Pope from 885 to 891
“I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people.” Mother Teresa
“You [women] are the gateway of the devil… Because of what you deserve, that is, death, even the Son of God had to die… Women, you ought to go about clad in mourning and rays, your eyes filled with tears of remorse, to make us forget you have been mankind’s destruction.” Tertulian, father of the Latin Church.
Of course the Protestants are even stupider than the Catholics as Protestantism is the idiot bastard child of Christianity.
“Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.” – Martin Luther
Trust me Luther, you anti-Semitic moron, it has been.

go find another demonination that subcribes to her point of view.
You’ve got it exactly backwards.

Since Boris likes quotes …
“Those who deliberately step in all the puddles should not complain too loudly about how bad the road is.” — Hans Küng

Robert
February 18, 2009 4:15 PM
Identical twins develop from the same fertilized egg. Unless you believe identical twins share one soul, the ensoulment does not occur at conception. That is the sticking point between science and Catholic doctrine. There is an argument to be made that just because life does not begin at conception, it is still sacred, but that is a different argument–and bishops themselves have difficulty with what is Catholic doctrine on this point.
___________________________
I concur.

Guy Arthur Thomas,
My friend Brian has a message for you:
Of course, there is no evidence whatsoever for an afterlife. Nor is there any reasonable, fact-based explanation for it. None. So here is where the apologetics come in. You claim that human beings possess “souls” that somehow represent consciousness and personality. You declare that these “souls” can exist separately from our bodies. You assert that these “souls” somehow leave our bodies at death and go somewhere else, employing some inexplicable means of locomotion. This is all nonsense, of course. This is wild speculation about things that you cannot know, and that you do not know. Have you ever tried to figure out what a “soul” actually is? I have asked numerous Christians to explain the term, and they can’t do it, because they don’t know what it is actually supposed to be. No one does. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence for a mind/brain duality, or a “ghost in the machine.”
As a Christian, you really have to ask yourself some questions. You have to ask yourself, “Am I being manipulated? Is it at all possible that the reason I argue so passionately about the ineffable and the unknowable, about things that I cannot possibly know, is that I am simply trying to convince myself that I will inherit eternal bliss-and that I will escape eternal torture in hell? Is it possible that all my orgiastic expressions of religious fervor derive from the primal will to survive, something far more ancient than any holy book? Is it possible that my religion’s founders cynically co-opted this primal will to survive and the universal fear of pain in order to gain converts-and thus increase their wealth and power? Is it also possible that these leaders were deluded?”

Boris: blah blah conspiracy theory, blah blah pointless slur.
ZZ: SNORE!
You childish quibbles wouldn’t convince anybody but a teenager. Not even worth refuting.
Dismissed!

go find another demonination that subcribes to her point of view.
You’ve got it exactly backwards.
Moonshadow, that statement has a couple of possible meanings:
Either you’re saying that
(exactly backwards) instead of finding another denomination that subscribes to her point of view, she should alter her beliefs to fit the organization she chooses to join with… (the belief finds her)
or…
(exactly backwards) instead of Pelosi finding another denomination, the Roman Catholic church should alter her teaching to fit what her congregation believes. (the denomination finds her)
or there’s another way of looking at it.
The number of Roman Catholics who do not adhere to the teachings of the church is quite large (as I can understand, as I do not adhere to all of the teachings of my chosen denomination – the difference being that my denomination does not consider itself to be infallible.)

ZZ,
Your religion has a conspiracy to promote a belief in an afterlife for which there is absolutely no possibility, no hope. This is why you hate and fear science. Science has canceled your one-way-ticket to a blissful eternal existence in a magical happy land by proving we are simply biological organisms and not gods who can live forever. Your life-avoidance and escapist fantasies won’t do you a bit of good when you lose consciousness for the last time. Poof, you’re gone and in a matter of a few days or a week even your closest friends and relatives won’t be giving you another thought. Poof.

the difference being that my denomination does not consider itself to be infallible.
My remark was an intentional insight into my ecclesiology — yes, MzEllen, you read me keenly.

the difference being that my denomination does not consider itself to be infallible.
My remark was an intentional insight into my ecclesiology — yes, MzEllen, you read me keenly.

I’ll say something else … hopefully only once (without comment duplication):
The number of Roman Catholics who do not adhere to the teachings of the church is quite large
I’ll grant you your sweeping statement but, of late, dissent on this matter – abortion – is a hot button.

That was a sweeping statement…sorry.
Is “the number of Roman Catholics who do not adhere to all of the teachings of the church is quite large…” less sweeping?
I was thinking less of abortion than such things as birth control, IVF, homosexuality, etc. A couple of my Roman Catholic friends and/or co-workers either participate or have participated in each of these.

To anybody still slogging through Boris’ inane rants, know that everything he is saying has already been refuted in any number of books, most of which were written decades or centuries ago. But since most of us have actual jobs and families, we don’t have the time to type all of it again on this blog. Just go to the library.
Also, By having the temerity and bad taste to actually MOCK Michelle when she got cancer, he has completely surrendered any credibility he had, and has jettisoned any hope that a reasonable person would listen to him. Atheism of the type he proposes is obviously only for bitter, twisted people like himself, and his own lack of character makes it impossible for him to package it palatably. Since he’s self-identified as a worthless troll whose only purpose is to disrupt, it makes his drawn-out posts all the more baffling. Only an utter loser would spend that much time typing just to annoy people.
This is my universal response to his posts.

A couple of my Roman Catholic friends and/or co-workers either participate or have participated in each of these.
I haven’t any doubt you can be a good witness to them.

Since I don’t consider IVF or birth control to be sins, that part was anon-issue. The gay man…we had a very nice discussion the other day about lent. I respect him a lot and of all the people that I’ve worked with, he’s one of the best with people with autism.

That was a sweeping statement…sorry.
Is “the number of Roman Catholics who do not adhere to all of the teachings of the church is quite large…” less sweeping?
I should have added, “Don’t sweat it.” IOW, say what you like. Peace.