This is the place to check out, just over the border in Delaware.
http://www.totalwine.com/StoreList.aspx?store=101
Not sure if you will get better service there, but the selection is massive. Like a Costco for wine

As someone who is glad to have left PA behind, I have to agree that the liquor laws are some of the dumbest in the nation.
You need to look for another store. The state has different tier stores. Some wine stores are considered premium, and they have a better selection and usually more informed staff. Also look for the beer distributors who really enjoy beer, some of them will have incredible microbrew selections, but you will have to buy it by the case.

Trying to figure out the reasoning behind liquor laws is a sure recipe for insanity. They make very little sense, anywhere.

There are state stores that are more specialized. The state store on Greenfield Avenue on Ardmore has an excellent selection and a knowledgeable staff. Your discovery is interesting for a native to read about because we know the system is terrible, everyone wants something different but nothing happens because of the entrenched interests your friend described. We get use to the inconvenience but when a newcomer reacts to the dysfunction we realize just how badly we are served by the current system.

GingerMan: Not sure if you will get better service there, but the selection is massive. Like a Costco for wine
Fantastic, thanks for the link! I’ve just Googlemapped it, and it’s less than a 40 minute drive from my front door.
By the way, I don’t know how to break it to you, but in the Free World, Costco sells wine — and they sell good wine too, at bargain prices. Not a huge selection, but the stuff they do sell is pretty high quality.

I will second the Total Wine recommendation. The staff there have been helpful and knowledgeable. There are rumors that the police sometimes stake out the place, so be aware. We always stop at a Mexican restaurant on the way back.
Steve

The state has something a monopoly on alcohol in my state (New Hampshire) as well. What makes it even stupider is that state liquor stores (the ones I know of anyway) are located right off of major interstate highways – with nothing else around them! It’s a good recipe for DWI if you ask me.

As a native of Pennsylvania (and a resident of Maryland, which has some counties with very restrictive liquor laws that mirror the Keystone State), I am usually stunned when I see alcohol in a grocery store. It just feels wrong (even though I don’t think there’s actually anything wrong with it). In fact, I was visiting Dallas recently, and we were shopping for my Grandma, and they had a WHOLE SECTION OF KROGER devoted to beer and wine. A section of the store! I can’t put into words how strange this feels to me. My brother compared it to Turkey – yes, he said he felt like he was in a foreign country when he saw alcohol in stores.
At least my county lets you sell beer in convience stores. (BTW: Sheetz, a convience store chain in Western PA, is trying to lobby to change this silly law. They had succeeded in getting the legislature passed at first, but a court struck it down. It was kind of sad to go there after the ruling, but before they could move the beer out – a whole section of the Sheetz store was LOCKED, and a sign put up saying how you couldn’t buy any of it.)

I had a similar experience when I moved to Indiana for a job back in the early 90s. No state liquor stores, but they wouldn’t sell it on Sundays. I always did my shopping on Sundays, and the first time I figured that out, I asked them if they still had separate drinking fountains too. Funny thing was, you could go to a restaurant or bar on Sundays and drink yourself silly, but somehow “pagkage” liquor sales were a special threat to the sabbath, or something. As far as I know, Utah still has the most bizarre liquor laws. For some reason, I just have a lot of contempt for paternalism….

Our Costco down here in Plano sells wine and beer but no liquor. And this is disappointing to me because I’ve heard Kirkland Signature vodka is stellar.

I echo Jeremy’s remark about NH. I think one of the biggest liquor stores in the state is its own exit on a rest area off Rte. 93. Although the smaller ones (like in Peterborough) are decent, and the NH Liquor Commission has a very helpful online database and catalog that allows you to search for wines and liquors, and see which state stores have them.
Here in Indiana, they carry booze in all the drug stores. So you can get a prescription and a bottle of scotch at the same time, if you’re so inclined.
Of course, Ohio is one of the best. I went to a drive-thru liquor store in Cleveland. It’s like a car wash — you drive in one side, pop the trunk, tell the attendant what you want, he throws it the back, you and pay and head out the other door. Now that is Western Civilization.
M

Yeah dumb law but as has been suggested – go to NJ. Many years ago when I worked at U of Penn there was a great state liquor store near the school – had a fine wine selection and nice staff so maybe you just needd to look around.
My PA friends not only come to NJ to buy wine but also get their gas here. It can be anywhere from 25 to 40 cents a gallon cheaper. NJ also by law prohibits self serve gas stations – so I totally am at a loss when I leave the state and have to pump my own gas.

Boy, this LCB gnashing of teeth brings back memories. Like walking 5 miles to school in the snow.
Rod in the “Old Days” the LCB stores weren’t even stores. They were Soviet style establishments. There were no aisles to even browse. The drones worked behind a counter and you had to read a catalog and tell them what you wanted. Then they would go in the back, fetch it and ring it up.
The beer laws were nuts. In college (Philly), if we wanted a case of beer from a bar, we’d buy the 2 six packs max, set them on the sidewalk outside the door and then go back and buy 2 more.
There were always rumors about LCB enforcement following people back from Jersey. We shopped at a place called Roger Wilco in Burlington. And always took two trips around a traffic circle to ensure we weren’t being followed. How clever…
I live in DC now and we have Total Wine stores here in Northern VA. As mentioned by others, the selection is huge and the prices are better than Costco. Check their specials on-line.
BTW, when my Dad was alive (RIP), the neighborly thing to do was ask you neighbors or friends if they needed anything when you were making a “booze run”. He always brought back bottles of cheap gin and jug wine for his pals when he trekked to Jersey.

Re: I am usually stunned when I see alcohol in a grocery store.
Michigan used to have some pretty restrictive laws on liquor (not so much beer and wine) but these have been relaxed a lot. You can usually find liquor in most Meijers superstores there. And beer is sold almost everywhere, even many gas station convenience stores.
Last I knew though they still had a ban on any sort of alcohol sale from 9pm Christmas Eve all through Christmas Day. I was shocked when I had moved to Ohio and friends called one Christmas Night to invite me down to the local bar.

I’m glad to hear that the police have better things to do now. When I lived in Philadelphia in the 80s and 90s, there was a liquor store (called, believe it or not, The Booze Shop) in New Jersey, not too far from the Jersey side of the Ben Franklin bridge. The Pennsylvania state police were known to stop by periodically and write down all the PA license plates in the parking lot, and then pull the drivers over on some pretext after they re-crossed the bridge.
I used to buy my beer at a beer outlet in West Philadelphia, somewhere around 48th and Spruce, if I remember correctly. They actually had a pretty good selection, including things like Pilsner Urquell. But you had to buy beer by the case.

The fact that McCain’s wife’s family made their money in the “business” of liquor distributorship made it impossible for me to support him in 2008.

This topic reminds me of a myth I read about years ago. The king of ancient Rus (Russia) decided that his kingdom would modernize more quickly if it accepted an established religion. So he told his courtiers to investigate Orthodoxy and Islam and report back.
The courtiers did as they were told and reported back the pros and cons of each religion. Upon hearing that Muslims don’t drink alcohol, the king reportedly had his subjects taken to the river to be baptized.

Rod,
Do you really think our culture needs to make it _easier_ for people to drink themselves into an early grave (with all th costs that involves to their families, friends, employers, and to the taxpayers)? We have enough of an alcohol problem as it is. Though, praise God, not as much as England.
Massachusetts used to have blue laws about alcohol (no selling liquor after 10 p.m., or anytime on Sundays). I was a fan, though not for religious reasons, and I was sad when they overturned the laws a few years back. (And if Boston ever tries to allow bars to stay open past 2 a.m., I’ll be in a righteous rage about that too). Alcohol should be legal, but the state certainly has every right, and a strong compelling interest, in making it more difficult and expensive to get then it would otherwise be, because that does deter people- even if just a few at the margins- who would otherwise be overindulging.
These laws may be silly and arbitrary, but the point behind them is precisely to throw up annoying roadblocks in the way of people who would like to indulge in irresponsible and self-destructive behaviour. While I’m a social drinker, I do support laws that restrict the hours and places where one can buy alcohol, and I think alcohol should be taxed stringently as well. Look at England’s youth culture today, and then ask yourself if you want America to go down the same route.

I hate drunkenness as much as Hector, but Pennsylvania is ludicrous. Candy stores can’t even sell chocolates with liqueur fillings. They do make them, and I have had them, but it’s a back-room sort of thing, a deal with the owner, and the box is plain with the word “special” written on it.
It’s so illicit it should be thrilling, but it never actually is.

Blue-nose authoritarian that I am, I’m with Hector. Pennsylvania’s laws may well be incoherent, a source of corruption, and a worthy target of libertarian ire, but watch that your ire against them doesn’t turn into a blanket denunciation of every restriction on anything so “innocent” as booze. Do that, and you’re close to playing the enlightened cosmopolitan, telling the rubes to grow up.

Only a few years ago the Blue Laws where still in effect and State Stores in PA were closed on Sundays. This should give any social conservative with a taste for liquor pause to consider the benefits for the separation of Church and State.

Only a few years ago the Blue Laws where still in effect and State Stores in PA were closed on Sundays. This should give any social conservative with a taste for liquor pause to consider the benefits for the separation of Church and State.

Wow, this brings back memories! The small stores weren’t quite as awful as you think, because you could order things. My dad commonly ordered champagne and sparkling burgundy. But things were indeed straight-laced. The chemistry department couldn’t have any booze on campus, even though they only wanted it to analyze in the labs.
Of course, the crunchy response is to make your own. My father especially treasured the day the Mormon missionaries came up our drive and discovered him in his overalls, decanting 50 gallons of elderberry wine. Speaking of which, you’re not a crunchy Pennsylvanian if you haven’t found a set of Euell Gibbons’ books and the nearest berry patch. It’s fat country!

Re: Hector & Russell Arben Fox. With all due respect, I don’t see New Jersey and Delaware as profound islands of dissolution relative to Pennsylvania because their good citizens have better access to wine and spirits.
The only thing PA laws do is force the Rod’s of Pennsylvania to drive to New Jersey or Delaware to purchase a legal commodity.
I’m not telling the rubes to grow up. I’m just saying that making Rod drive 40 miles to save a few shekels is ridiculous.
The guy just wants to enjoy some wine with his meal. Sheesh…

Re: Do you really think our culture needs to make it _easier_ for people to drink themselves into an early grave
Hector, most of us are not problem drunks, and those who are will easily figure their way around the various ins and outs of PA law and drink themselves into an early grave anyway. I simply cannot conceive how state monopolies are any sort of solution to the problem of alcoholism. Most generally they are a solution to the “problem” of insufficient patronage opportunities for politicians to shower their favorites with.

I don’t drink and, quite frankly, think that Pennsylvania’s laws sound quite reasonable. I’m in favor of laws that restrict access to alcohol. I don’t think you have it that bad there.

Re: The guy just wants to enjoy some wine with his meal. Sheesh..
I understand that. Certainly Rod- or me, or Russell, or you- can enjoy some drinks responsibly. Many people can’t, however, and society needs to take their circumstances into account as well as ours. I think that society should strike a reasonable balance where alcohol is legal and available but there are some restrictions about when and where you can buy it.
A law which, for example, prevented stores from selling alcohol on Fridays (to get around any awkward church-state issues) would force people to _plan_ their drinking, and by making people _think_ about how much they were planning to drink, and put more effort into procuring the alcohol, would probably lead to somewhat less drinking in the aggregate, particularly among young people.
In England, the easy availability of alcohol has been linked to things like the sad case of that 22-year-old who died of cirrhosis last year. England didn’t have those problems in the 1950s, and this was probably because alcohol was much more expensive back then.

Beer is still easy to get if you are under age, if you know where to look. Find a bar that doesn’t card, and you can get a six pack. Find a distributor that doesn’t card, and you can get a case.
In Pittsburgh, we have a growing number of boutique state stores, with excellent selections and reasonably knowledgeable staff. And they are open on Sundays. Good wine is also almost always on sale, so the prices can be reasonable. Could be worse…

It was inevitable that this would be one of your first posts about Philly. Since moving away from there, I had forgotten about the idiocy of the PLCB and PA’s liquor laws. Get used to buying cases of beer at distributors, when six packs would have sufficed. Either that or paying lots of money to buy single bottles at different stores.
@GingerMan – excellent that Total Wine was the first post on this thread. I was going to recommend the one in Cherry Hill, NJ. Not far over the Ben Franklin, and it may be shorter for Rod, depending on where in Philly he lives. Of course, you have to pay the toll.
For anyone wanting to read more about the subject, Lew Bryson actually has an entire blog devoted to this topic:
http://noplcb.blogspot.com/
However, on the positive side, Philly has a large number of restaurants with excellent beer and food. If you live near Mt. Airy, try Earth Bread and Brewery, as it has excellent flat bread pizza and great beer (plus a large emphasis on local foods).

if you think Pennsylvania is bad you should see Ontario. I was in Toronto last fall on business. wanted to buy a six pack to take back to my hotel room (cheaper then buying in the hotel i thought). I finally stumbled on a state store. what a dreary place and the selection was the pits. and when I say stumbled upon I mean stumbled upon, no signs, no nothing and then there it was

Welcome to the king of the blue (law) states.
You haven’t even hit the worst of it, as you didn’t mention that PA hasn’t quite gotten around to throwing out its laws against have liquor delivered to you from out of state (such laws were found to be unconstitutional a few years back, but no one has yet managed to challenge PA’s version of the restriction to get it off the books) This is compounded by the fact that there is a full approved list of liquors that the stores are allowed to order from. It’s big, but there’s plenty that’s not on it (it’s nearly if not completely bereft of types of mead, for example) and if it’s not there, you can’t have it ordered.
Out here in the Pittsburgh area, the major grocery chain, Giant Eagle, has managed to make some inroads into getting mini state-stores in house (sectioned off, separate registers) and getting their in store cafes to get liquor licenses. And there are now state stores that are open on Sundays; 5-10 years ago you were out of luck completely one day of the week.
Another bit of hope for you, though. There is more than one kind of Wine and Spirits shop. More specifically every area should have at least one larger sized Premium Collection stores (search here to track one down:
http://www.pawineandspirits.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/FindStoreView ) which have a much larger selection or wines and nicer liquors. They’re usually a little larger if not completely standalone buildings (but otherwise, in my experience shoe the same, plain sign- since the signage is also strictly regulated). And they’re also usually much more pleasantly designed rather than just focused on squeezing as much booze into as little space as possible.

The North Carolina town my family is from was dry until the late sixties. When they finally voted to allow an ABC (Alcoholic Beverage Control) store, my great-grandfather took a lawn chair and sat outside the store for a couple of weeks trying to shame the Baptists away. My grandfather (also a devout Baptist) ended up being on the ABC board, so the times, they do change.)
The restrictions there have eased; you can buy beer in the supermarket now. A few jokes courtesy of my Southern Baptist cousins:
How can you tell a Methodist from a Baptist in the liquor store?
The Methodist will say hey to you.
How can you tell you tell a Baptist in the Piggly-Wiggly?
The Baptist puts the beer under the feminine products.

“A law which, for example, prevented stores from selling alcohol on Fridays (to get around any awkward church-state issues) would force people to _plan_ their drinking, and by making people _think_ about how much they were planning to drink, and put more effort into procuring the alcohol, would probably lead to somewhat less drinking in the aggregate, particularly among young people.”
Other way around. Laws restricting when you can buy it make people over-plan and stock up when it is available against the chances that they might possibly want some when they can’t get it.
Or they just hit up the grocery store. Not sure about other states, but if you send a teen to the store to pick up things you might need, don’t waste their time by putting vanilla on the list.

Sorry my friend and dear brother in wine, but I can not ship wine to PA. However, if you find an address across the border you may be in luck. Of course when I travel to St Tikhon’s Monastery I usually have extra baggage. See you in October if you can survive. I never did get a bottle of that Grenache for myself.

I keep waiting for someone to challenge laws like “no wine across state line” under the interstate commerce clause of the constitution…

I am from PA, just spent 10 years in VA, and now because of tax reasons have moved to Nevada. VA is unlike PA in one respect: You can go into any supermarket, 24/7, and buy beer (foreign or domestic)and wine. The stores Gov McDonnell talks about are the ABC Stores (Alcoholic Beverage Control) which sell liquor. But most people tend to like beer and wine, also champagne and sherry, so they’re readily available. The author is so right about PA. All my relatives bemoan the system there and are amazed when they visit me in VA or here in NV. He is also right in that it does absolutely nothing to reduce underage drinking. I spent 30 years in the military…gosh even McDonald’s serves beer in Germany. We need to open things up more. Great article.

Why Rod, what’s the problem? The good people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania take exception to something you enjoy doing, and their elected representatives in the legislature make it harder for you to do it. Something which you were strenuously defending just weeks ago, when it concerned something you don’t enjoy. And at the time I did warn you that it wouldn’t end there.*
But of course, those were smokers, second-class citizens all!
[[extremely big grin]]
* OK, so I predicted coffee, not alcohol. I’ll have to register for Remedial Prophesying 201.

Oh, I thought we weren’t going to have any more same-sex marriage threads, but this is the same issue.
The people of Pennsylvania wished to express their moral disapproval of the sale of alcoholic beverages and so they made these highly restricted.
Rod has a different view about alcoholic beverages (one that I share) and he takes umbrage over these Pennsylvanians of decades past telling him what he can do. But isn’t the argument that people can write these moral judgements in stone, as it were?
The people have spoken. Well, maybe you can get some activist judge to decide that you’re the victim of invidious discrimination.

As noted by a few folks upthread, things have gotten better. The grocery store down the street from me has a small wine/spirits shop attached to it and six packs are now available at a handful of grocery stores…but only if they have cafes.
Perhaps a bit off-topic, but certainly part of the discussion of alcohol sales in the PA, is the baffling Johnstown Flood Tax that we’re obligated to pay. It was a ten percent tax on alcohol that was instituted after a horrific flood in Johnstown, PA back in the mid-1930s. Over time it’s grown to 18%, and collected taxes now just go into the general fund to feed the beast that is Pennsylvania government.
The good news is that you are close to Victory Brewing, so you can locally access some excellent beers.

Hector:
The problem here in England is cultural, and has nothing to do with price or licensing restrictions. Many young people are in a state of despair and are going to get themselves wasted no matter what. Compare the situation in England to that in France or Spain, where alcohol laws are extremely lax and yet public drunkenness is still quite rightly considered a source of shame.
Tougher licensing and higher taxes damage the country pubs – the community centres which make money out of ale, food and hospitality – while barely denting the real problem, which is the industrial drinking houses known as night clubs. Indeed, pubs are now closing at the rate of about 50 a week because it’s impossible to make a profit. The smoking ban did them enormous damage, too.
(By the way, I entered a long and well-thought-out response to this, but it disappeared from the comment box before I was able to post it. What’s up there?)

Next week I will be covering a presentation about the high rate of drinking among North Dakota’s teenagers. We have the dubious distinction of having the highest binge drinking rate in the nation. Kids and adults alike drink and drink and drink, often because there’s nothing to do in a small town but go to the local bar or, if you’re a teenager, to go to the weekend keg party in someone’s field. You can buy alcohol in the grocery stores here, though they are required to be in a separate area than the food. Most of the large local groceries have separate liquor stores under the same roof. There are also a couple local wineries. Bars are open to the wee hours of the morning and, since I used to live behind one of them, I was frequently awakened by flashing lights from a police car and the shouts and curses and sounds of fists on flesh from the fights of 20-something men in the parking lot across the street. Alcohol is almost always a factor in the fatal accident reports I type up when I work a weekend. It is a factor in many of the domestic violence calls, rapes and other criminal activity on the police docket. It is the reason behind much sadness and destruction. I wish North Dakota had tighter restrictions on alcohol than it does. I don’t think much good comes of making it widely available or of a culture that accepts it so readily. Plus, drunks are extraordinarily tedious. Even if I weren’t diabetic, I wouldn’t drink because I’ve never wanted to lose control over my faculties.

The repeal of Prohibition came with a special clause in the 21st Amendment that makes states very sovereign when it comes to transportation of alcoholic beverages across its lines. So libertarians beware. Even libertarian NH takes advantage of this clause.
“The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.”

“These laws may be silly and arbitrary, but the point behind them is precisely to throw up annoying roadblocks in the way of people who would like to indulge…”
Oh, puh-leeze. Go back to Iran or Saudi. There’s a concept called, ‘acting like an adult’, and also ‘freedom’, I recommend it.

The North Carolina town my family is from was dry until the late sixties.
Hell, the North Carolina CITY I Live in was dry until last year…and I’m not talking some out of the way rural mountain place either.

I’m 54, just to put my span of knowledge into perspective. I’m old enough to have celebrated (ahem) going to school in a state that had not yet raised the minimum age from 18 to 21.
PA’s liquor laws are a holdover from Prohibition, with all the negative connotations, no doubt of it. However, it has also been used effectively in some situations.
1) The neighborhood bar that routinely violates curfew (2am), spills crowds of drunks to urinate on private property or create a major ruckus.
2) The neighborhood store that routinely sells beer to minors. (Do I need to expand on that?) Contrary to some beliefs, PA allows non-liquor establishments to acquire a license to sell beer. It’s rare (and expensive to acquire), but it’s there.
3) Corruption. Surely government bureaucracy lends its own problems to that dynamic, but LCB has done good work there.
There is no blanket solution. All states have problems defined by how much monopoly control they exert over alcoholic beverages. PA is better than some in my experience.
Oh, and Rod: Your local State store will order items for you for transfer from other State stores that stock them. I don’t recall for sure, but I believe there is little (to no) additional charge for the transfer. Also, engage the manager in conversation, and he might be able to stock something for you. You may not be the only one who wants it, and you might be the final “vote” that gives him enough demand to order it.

You are probably right about how the PA stores came into being, but these days the system continues because of politics, pure and simple. Check out how much the higher-placed clowns get paid and you’ll see what I mean. I know first-hand how this agency – like so many in PA – are little more than instruments of patronage. Maybe other states are like it, but PA seems to have made a real bipartisan breakthrough: keep near-useless and incompetent state agencies/entities/bureaus etc. alive and share the positions among parties. Usually about the same caliber of political flunkie. Just ask Mayor Nutter.

In Soviet Russia, liquor drinks you!

clasqm: Why Rod, what’s the problem? The good people of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania take exception to something you enjoy doing, and their elected representatives in the legislature make it harder for you to do it. Something which you were strenuously defending just weeks ago, when it concerned something you don’t enjoy. And at the time I did warn you that it wouldn’t end there.
What’s your point? I’m not claiming the people of Pennsylvania, through their elected representatives, don’t have the right to regulate liquor sales. They do, and I think on balance it’s a good idea that they do. What I object to is not their possession of that right, but the way they use it. Big difference. In general, I affirm the right of the people to be wrong.
Hector, to your point about the PA laws making it harder to obtain drink, thus decreasing drunkenness, that’s simply not true, as far as I can see. If getting wasted was my plan, I could easily do that under the current system. I can walk to the Soviet wine and spirits shop and buy as much vodka or chardonnay as I could carry out — and the prices, from what I can tell, are on par with retail (in fact, I was chagrined to see that Tito’s, my house vodka in Texas, is cheaper in the PA state store than in my local liquor store in Dallas — this, even though Tito’s is made in Texas!). On the beer front, the bizarre law that forces you to buy a case of beer in retail establishments, or none at all, would in fact seem to encourage overindulgence.
More than the price problem, what I object to is the way the state monopoly makes it hard on people who enjoy drinking wine, beer and spirits for the taste. For example, I love the taste of beer, but I am cursed by some sort of mild allergy to it, and can’t drink more than two or three at any one time. I don’t often drink beer at home, but on the occasion I felt like having a beer, I’d stop off at Central Market and buy a bottle of Chimay, or at most a six pack of something great from Dogfish Head. A six-pack would last me a month. There’s no way I’m going to buy a case of any beer; I’d go through a case of wine faster. Result: no more beer-drinking at home. Now, you might say that’s good, because it limits my alcohol consumption. But the boozer who will go through a case in no time flat will not be discouraged by this law; the connoisseur who drinks beer in a limited fashion will be.
On wine, I can get good bottles of wine at the state shop, and have already bought and consumed one. They even have excellent prices on so-called “Chairman’s Specials” — good bottles offered on heavy discount. Cheers to that. What I don’t like, though, is that I can’t benefit from the competition I enjoyed in Dallas. I bought most of my wine at Central Market, where I’d developed a good relationship with the wine manager. She knew what our tastes were, and almost always made great recommendations, at several price points. Because of that, she had our loyalty as customers. There were times when I got a better deal on bottles I liked at other wine stores, but the great personal service I enjoyed at CM made me a loyal customer. In PA, the clerks at the state stores may be first-rate wine scholars and the soul of kindness … or they could be surly and ignorant. It doesn’t matter: they have a monopoly on wine sales, and therefore no incentive to offer better service (or better prices). Take it or leave it.
This is particularly discouraging to me, because I don’t know a lot about wine, but am eager to learn. When I go into a wine store, I’m usually overwhelmed by the choices. Over the years, I’ve learned which grapes, and styles of winemaking, I like, and which ones I don’t much care for, so that’s some help. But mostly I’m in need of assistance from a clerk who knows about wine, and who can help guide my choices. I’ve discovered so many good wines this way, wines I wouldn’t have chosen on my own, because I probably wouldn’t have found my way to them. Judging from the neighborhood in which I’ve settled, there are probably more than a few wine drinkers there who are like me: curious and eager to learn. But we’ve got one store to serve our needs, and no competition to make buying and learning about wine a more enjoyable experience. It stinks, because I can’t see the social utility in this arrangement; I only see the down side.

The selection varies from store to store and neighborhood to neighborhood. You may not have to go to NJ but up to Chestnut Hill where I have found a very different set of choices.

Re: Oh, puh-leeze. Go back to Iran or Saudi. There’s a concept called, ‘acting like an adult’, and also ‘freedom’, I recommend it.
John,
In case it wasn’t clear, I don’t have a problem with alcohol in general. I’m a social drinker and I like my occasional highball as much as the next man. What I have a problem with is the _abuse_ of alcohol. The laws should strive to discourage and suppress the abuse of alcohol while allowing for its responsible use.
This is supposed to be the Crunchy Con blog, right? What happened to the right of local communities to regulate commodities as they see fit?

Heh, what John D and clasqm said.
So moral relativism is deviation from the absolute standard of someone’s personal opinion, or in religious matters, the personal opinion of the guy with the hat? Gee, moral relativism is just like judicial activism.

The laws should strive to discourage and suppress the abuse of alcohol while allowing for its responsible use.
Hector,
I think this is the thrust of the complaint from us PA locals. The question is whether the laws, as presently constructed, actually contribute to this social outcome you are seeking. No doubt that even if they did you would still get pushback from those with a more libertarian bent, but even of those who are like-minded, is any actual effective purpose being served from the regulations that Rod posted from Wikipedia?
Compare it to Utah for example which limits the alcohol content of the beer sold there to lower than is typical nationally (or at least it used to, maybe someone will correct me here). In other words, you’d have to drink a lot more to get as drunk as you might in another state. Now, I’d not want to see such laws in PA, but it would certainly have a greater impact on potential abuse than what we have now.
Whatever the original intent of these laws the social purpose has long been stripped away and is now used as a pretense to keep those with an entrenched economic interest in the current setup in place. That’s the objection that needs to be addressed in order to justify them.
As Rod notes, we could retain the same restrictions on quantity and time of day for sales of alcohol, just foster healthier private competition from less regulated store operators.
- GingerMan

A previous poster mentioned about being stunned about seeing alcohol in a grocery store. Being born & raised in Nevada, I remember being 9 years old & stunned by NOT seeing slot machines in out-of-state grocery stores. All depends on what you’re used to. As far as the alcohol, everytime we went to Utah to visit relatives, we had a trunkful of liquor for them. (Non-practicing LDS).

Rod,
Proof’s in the pudding:
Meridian Chardonnay (very good BTW)
PA LCB: $10.99
Total Wine (VA): $5.47
Calvert Woodley (DC): $4.99
A case of regular wine in PA costs at least $66 more!
The LCB price is flat out pathologically extortionate pricing. There’s nothing else to say.

I always thought Virginia’s state run liquor stores were weird but at least we can get beer and wine in the local groceries stores and Costco. I remember the State ABC stores as being very Soviet style back in the day. Now they let you browse in the aisles. Before, you had to go to the counter and everything was steel gray, kind of like a prison or something.
I think the guv is right, the state shouldn’t be in the liquor biz. The other weird thing is when we had a local referendum about liquor by the drink. Before it passed, you couldn’t buy one mixed drink at a restaurant, you had to bring in a whole, unopened bottle of booze and purchase “set ups” (the non-alcoholic ingredients) and mix it yourself. The referendum to allow liquor by the drink, (which actually led to less drinking) passed in my county by 8 votes! Legions of bible quoting citizens poured out of the woodwork to predict that drunks would be everywhere, etc., etc.
I had no idea Pennsylvania had more idiotic liquor laws than Virginia. I thought it was because of the South and the Bible belt and all that stuff. Though the best customers at the local ABC stores were always the Baptists and they would hope no one from their church would see them!
One good thing about the State ABC stores, though, if you are having some sort of charitable fundraising or sale outside of the local stores, the people going into Wal-Mart won’t even look at you but the folks going into the ABC stores give and give generously. I am not sure if it’s guilt or what.

We, your neighbors in NYS cannot believe the PA system either. And we hope we are close to changing the monopoly of liquor stores in NYS. If anyone wants to add comments to help us do that, please watch for articles in bordering NY newspapers and voice your thoughts for an open market. If NY gets the opened market, as is currently proposed in Governor Paterson’s 2010-2011 Budget, PA will have more pressure to also do so. Thank you.

Rod,
You need to check out “The Foodery” for your beer needs. They have a great selection of beers from all over the world and allow to buy a mix-and-match six pack. It may cost you $15 for the six pack, but it sure beats buying a whole case from a distributor. They have two locations in Philadelphia.
For wine, another suggestion is the store in Narberth right next to the train station. They have a decent selection and the people there are helpful.
You should also check out the fabulous new Whole Foods that opened up in Plymouth Meeting right off I-476 (the “Blue Route”). Because they have a “cafe” there, they also sell six packs of beer and have a wine sampling area.

Ah, you found out about the state stores and beer by the case.
When we moved here the idea of having to buy beer in bulk was a shocker. I figured, wow the Steeler fans DO love their beer! However, six packs/individual bottles can be purchased to-go in some establishments and out here some locally owned sandwich/hotdog shops have excellent craft & imported beer selections (not cheap though).
As far as the wine/spirits situation- absolutely some shops are better than others and occasionally the sale prices are competitive, but it is a terrible system. Luckily, it is finally realizing it has to begin pleasing customers. However, from my experience, when people ask a LCB employee for a “good wine” they are waved toward the Chairman’s Selection section (in stores that have one).
I think Gov Ridge (R) did try to push privatization of the stores years back but with the state still controlling wholesale purchase and distribution. I agree with the above comments that this antiquated system is only around because the state government is not going to give up the revenue.
The Pittsburgh Post Gazette did a series on this monopoly in early 2008 – link to first article here:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08027/852212-389.stm

I always love it when someone moves somewhere and can’t wait to change everything. Some people’s world’s never seem to extend beyond themselves.

Ah, yes. Having spent a year in Pennsylvania recently, I’m glad to be back in Illinois where I can buy hard liquor at Target anytime I want.

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Came across this article today and thought of you! (BTW, I couldn’t find anywhere on the site telling me how to email you directly, so I had to dig up this old, related article. Did I miss it?