Doesn’t waterboarding presuppose that the person being interrogated has some useful information?

I agree…they don’t look like they could pull off flying a plane into a skyscraper. But, they seem quite capable of driving a Budget rental truck and parking it in front of an office building, or grabbing some guns and shooting up some other facility.
I agree with you…I feel much better with them behind bars.

Wuish I knew why my home state generates the worst of the looney-tunes, or at least the most dangerous. Back in the 90s (and when the Michigan economy was still going gang-busters) we also bequeathed the Michigan Militia and the terrorist Terry Nichols on America. Heck, a long time ago the Grand High Beagle (or whatever they call him) of the KKK lived just one county north of me.

“Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment,”
I take it they are not into literal interpretation of the bible? Sort don’t recall that particular biblical passage.
Yeah – they could have done some harm – glad they are in jail.

Not likely to happen, but neither is there likely to be a rush to understand “root causes” or “legitimate grievances,” nor will fundamentalist preachers be cosseted by academia or hired by the government to facilitate understanding, etc.

Rod,
Right on.
I think that some people were so gung-ho about torture owing to a failure of moral imagination. That is, they couldn’t imagine what it would be like to be wrongly captured (by, say, bounty hunters) and interrogated/tortured for information they didn’t have.
So, to answer your question, John E – water-boarding presupposes we *think* that the person has some useful information. It doesn’t mean they actually *do*.

Marcel is absolutely right. Moreover this case shows the efficiency of the State taking care to protect itself. Contrast that with its failure to protect American citizens, like Rob Krentz along the Mexican border.

Careful, stari — now that one of THEM is in the White House, Big Brother’s probably watching you, too.

I have a feeling – with no way to prove it – that there is a “cross-pollination” of sorts with all these terrorist groups. You mentioned that the videos look like Islamic recruitment videos and they do. These guys probably watch stuff on Youtube and think, “we need a Christian version of that.” Just like the drug gangs in Mexico behead now based on the influence of AQ. It’s a sick learning curve that could portend bad things.

now hopefully the FeeBees will take on these guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTD7MdnjDRA

Incidentally, I’m originally from there and like the other poster from a county away, I’ve never understood why Michigan has such a high incidence of these types of groups. Oddly enough, the representative for that district is a democrat after having thrown out a pretty conservative former pastor who was endorsed by the Club for Growth but my guess is Democrat or Republican they just hate the government.
What will be interesting to watch is if there is the dismissive attitude around this like there was when Muslim terrorist plots were uncovered and people said “they’re just kids” or whatever lessened the intent of what they were plotting. I say, take everyone at their word and act accordingly.
I also disagree with the fundamental premise, Joshua, that Waterboarding is torture. It’s not. Also, those captured are U.S. Citizens and should be prosecuted for treason according to the Constitution. That’s the fundamental difference between those caught on the battlefield and those arrested over the weekend.

OK – watching the video, a copuple of things come to mind. 1) Being an Orthodox Christian, I believe this is what can happen in the extreme when you start interpreting the Bible on your own without the guidance of the church and holy tradition. 2) I believe that the Evangelical church has become so “feminized” that there are no outlets for men to say find a purpose in the church, thus leading some to extremes. 3)They look like a bunch of guys that enjoyed playing cops and robbers or bad guys vs. good guys as kids and have merely taken it to the next “frightening” level as adults. Normal guys would just suit up and head to the paintball place or pick up a game of football to work off that excess testosterone. Finally, was that voice on the video chanting “Mary Ann” or “Aryan”

Why would we treat these terrorists any different from the ones from the middle east? Interrogate them then ship their butts off to GITMO and give them the full package.

Well one thing is certain. The trees they were firing at will no longer threaten their freedoms.
These militia movements (like the Posse Comitatus organization) have been around since the 80′s. They’re a background level threat, but their ideology is dangerous as the Oklahoma City bombing was likely inspired by it.

Finally, was that voice on the video chanting “Mary Ann” or “Aryan”?
“Marian” by the Sisters of Mercy – bad 80s goth-rock… not something I would normally expect to find on the right-wing survivalist/cultist iPod playlist, but these are strange times….

I think ANY terrorist organization, whether Muslim, Christian or secular, ought to play the game by major league rules. That means their leaders are eligible for predator drone strikes at any time, their supporters can expect jail and asset seizures, the whole bit

Wow, the ignorant wackos are out in full force tonight.

“Marian” by the Sisters of Mercy
Ah…I was wondering who that was. I was thinking Bauhaus.

beware!!!!
http://www.thesaudavoice.com/.a/6a00e55291ee848833011168f905f6970c-800wi
don’t say you haven’t been warned !!!!!!!!!

Doesn’t waterboarding presuppose that the person being interrogated has some useful information?
Depends- Suppose Jack Bauer doesn’t have a shirt on, and he needs to know fast what local liquor store will serve him.

What worries me is that the extreme fringe of the tea party sounds a lot like these militias. I’m reasonably sure that the rest of the movement will reject that mentality. I just hope they do so BEFORE some nutcase does something stupid like shoot a legislator or blow something up.

Thank you! Come again!

I was thinking Bauhaus
Bella Lugosi is still dead!

They already tried to kill Tom Perriello. It is only a matter of time before someone more competent tries.

“They” haven’t tried to kill anyone. The Perriello incident is under investigation; no suspects have been identified. The simple fact of the matter is that no Tea Party activists have been charged with any crime of violence, and the Tea Party organizations disavow violence. (I’m not a Tea Party member, but I see value in some of their points, while disagreeing with others.) I am really getting sick of people smearing their political opponents with the broad brush of hate, be they on the left or right, and then tacitly (or not) endorsing their confreres when they do the same. Before we slander people we don’t agree with, how about we get our facts straight first?

Rod, I see you clean up the troll and my response which was tweaking him. Sorry if I caused you extra work. The Slate article was interesting as it compared his style of rhetoric to another extreme group.

I love how our MSM has made sure that everyone knows that these militia were “CHRISTIAN” militia, but tiptoed around stating that the Ft. Hood massacre was a Muslim terrorist incident. This is just another way to smear the right. I am so sick of the way this country is being divided over political ideology and political correctiveness.
I won’t even address some of the comments that link this group with the Tea Party movement. Misinformed people that believe everything they hear and read.

I love how our MSM has made sure that everyone knows that these militia were “CHRISTIAN” militia, but tiptoed around stating that the Ft. Hood massacre was a Muslim terrorist incident.
Unlike the killer at Ft. Hood, these Christian identity extremists specifically said that religion was behind their terrorist ideas. It’s still unclear what role religion played, and to what extent, in Ft. Hood. These folks put it on YouTube.

“I love how our MSM has made sure that everyone knows that these militia were “CHRISTIAN” militia, but tiptoed around stating that the Ft. Hood massacre was a Muslim terrorist incident. ”
Within an hour, everyone in the country knew he was a Muslim. Since his was a surprise attack, they had to gather data to find a cause. Yes, you can be Muslim and be just plain psychotic like anyone else. In this case, they had spent a while investigating, so they knew the group’s ideology.
Steve

A lot of ignorant remarks have been tossed around about people who go to Tea Party gatherings.
A solution presents itself: there will be hundreds of them on April 15 in all parts of the country. Find one near you. Go. Observe. Think.

fyi;
with the trolls posts deleted, the jackie mason joke falls a little flat.
but it was hilarious. trust me.
but more on topic;
check this, it’s pretty hilarious too . .
http://www.jesusbewith.us/?p=2402

“Also, those captured are U.S. Citizens and should be prosecuted for treason according to the Constitution.”
I’m sure you realize that, given our status of being at war, treason is punishable by death. Thus, a successful prosecution of these idiots for treason in a federal court (which is the only venue for such charges against civilians to my knowledge) would result in their execution.
To my knowledge none of those captured and held at Gitmo have been officially executed by the Army for their crimes.

What’s ironic is that AnnArbor.com had a front page story about Michigan Militia helping a local township official with a search mission – it was quite controversial. The article was full of stuff about how these are normal, helpful people, just like you and I.
Two of the people mentioned, one was quoted I think, in the article were Hutaree members, including one of the people arrested.
Living near them, and going running, biking, and walking on dirt roads and in the woods, I’m glad they’re behind bars. They were apparently planning some sort of test mission and had decided to eliminate any ordinary civilian who got in their way. Nice.
Story: My wife’s walking group was about 2 miles from our home, dirt roads, last fall. They found a cow on the road and alerted the local farmer, who was glad to get it back. She (the farmer) told her that they had a problem with losing cows: “It’s those Ayrabs in Detroit. They come here and steal them.” My wife decided not to mention that if the cows got loose like this, it might just be they got lose, stuck in mud, or taken by coyotes.

“To my knowledge none of those captured and held at Gitmo have been officially executed by the Army for their crimes.”
Well, not OFFICIALLY, anyway.

@hlvanburen
One of the problems with Gitmo was that the guilt of the people imprisoned was very much in doubt. We tortured and abused innocent people. And then years later, we finally got around to releasing them after determining that they pretty much had nothing to do with terrorism. We behaved unconscionably.

Indeed. I also await the Torture Apologists to justify why they are not promoting torture of white collar suspects, including, but not limited to, those Captains of the Financial Svcs companies who imploded their industry and almost took down the economy with misfeasance and malfeasance. Sowing rampant distrust and corruption throughout the gears of the economy can be as dangerous to the commonwealth as terrorists’ bombs. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, isn’t it?

“A lot of ignorant remarks have been tossed around about people who go to Tea Party gatherings.”
And a lot of ignorant remarks are tossed around BY the people who go to Tea Party gatherings.
It’s a tough call who’s made more ignorant remarks. The Teabaggers themselves, or the entire Internet.

Japhy Rider wrote: “I also disagree with the fundamental premise, Joshua, that Waterboarding is torture. It’s not. ”
No? Then why did we convict people for waterboarding in World War 2?
I suppose it was a more liberal time then? Buncha hippies, don’t know what torture is. Or maybe Americans weren’t serious about defending their country back then?

What’s with the goth music?!

Japhy Rider wrote: “I also disagree with the fundamental premise, Joshua, that Waterboarding is torture. It’s not. ”
I disagree with the fundamental premise that the morality of an act is determined by symantics rather than on the merits of the act itself.

Japhy Rider wrote: “I also disagree with the fundamental premise, Joshua, that Waterboarding is torture. It’s not. ”
You can disagree if you want, but I respectfully say that you are wrong.
Waterboarding has always been considered torture (at least until the Bush Administration tried to justify it within the past few years). If you visit various torture museums around the world — such as the one in Cambodia which documented the atrocities of the Khmer Rouge, or the one in Europe which chronicled the horrors of the Inquisition — you will see exhibits showing water-boarding being used to torture people.
Japanese officers were tried and convicted of war crimes following WWII for using waterboarding. It was a favorite technique of the Pinochet regime.
Our soldiers were forbidden from using it against the Vietnamese in Vietnam.

Clearly these religious extremists are part of a terrorist network that is only partially exposed. When that is true of Muslims, we ignore our own laws and morals and torture them. What possible justification can there be in NOT torturing this militia?
Where are John Yoo, Dick Cheney and William Kristol when we REALLY need them?

Sorry that I don’t know how to use the internets. That Cheney post is mine.

The oddest thing to me in that video was the choice of “goth” rock band Sisters of Mercy as the theme music (lyrics here: http://www.the-sisters-of-mercy.com/lyrics/lyrindex.htm). A lot of those songs don’t exactly express Christian sentiment.

Anyone who disagrees that waterboarding is torture needs to read this post, from someone who trains Navy SEALs in torture-resistance techniques. http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/10/waterboarding-is-torture-perio/
Don’t just skim it, read down to the graphic description of the process about halfway down the article. Then imagine that being done to you… or to someone you love. Then be VERY careful about asking for the use of torture on those you hate.

Yeah! Because it shouldn’t be okay to abduct people, illegally torture them for years without due process, and not have to tell anybody about what we did to them. What kind of Nazis could be in favor of that! Thank all that is righteous for the ACLU! There is no more freedom in this country, but they keep trying anyway. Take a look at this: http://pltcldscsn.blogspot.com/2009/04/is-waterboarding-torture.html