Romney Was TOO Christian
Thursday February 7, 2008
Some might think that Romney lost evangelicals because he wasn't Christian enough. I think it's the other way around. He acted too Christian. Romney believed that to win the nomination he had to win over evangelical Christians. He figured the...
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You're right, he should have made the distinction because we all know it's there but I still voted for him because what choice did I have?
I think that you are right that Romney's Jesus line in his Texas speech was a tactical mistake, but I also think that you are wrong as to why he made the statement. I think that he understood that the statement would not go down well with evangelical Christians. (I know people involved at the Romney campaign at a fairly high level who told me that Romney was told NOT to mention Jesus in the speech for precisely this reason.)
Rather, I think that Jesus was in the speech as a direct challenge to evangelical Christians and was part and parcel to his claim that he would not abandon his Mormonism in order to get the nod. Part of not abandoning his Mormonism was refusing to cede the Mormons-are-not-Christians argument. The flaw of your analysis is that you fail to understand that the Mormon insistence on their own Christianity is not simply a tactical PR ploy, but rather flows from religious covenants that Mormons regard as central.
Well, he was certainly too Christian for me. I'm an atheist. It's extremely difficult for me to take seriously the suitability of anyone who believes Jesus was the Son of God for public office. From my perspective, it's a lot like being confronted with someone who thinks they have a direct pipeline to reliable moral principles because the large white rabbit who follows them around tells them they do.
I know, I know, religious people don't see it that way. I'm just saying how it looks to me. Not saying there's not good stuff in the bible because there is. But, the good stuff that is in there is good because it's true, not because it's in the bible. There's lots of junk in there too that we would be better off disregarding.
Anyone who believes there is an omnipotent, omniscient god is highly suspect as a potential leader from where I stand.
Nate Oman has it right. Romney was not the mistaken one in this relationship. This shows that evangelicals have a fundamental misunderstanding of how crucial--and central--a role Jesus Christ plays in the Mormon faith.
Mormons consider themselves Christians. The Apostles of Christ Jesus, do not. The Gospels where Jesus was quoted, do not.
This is why Mormons have to hold to their: " . . . as far as the Bible is translated correctly." doctrine. Their Jesus is a different "person" than that of historic Christian truth. Their Jesus may be dear to them, but Jesus Himself warned we believers in Him, to expect the Mormon brand of counterfeit religion. And that is why we also reject the false version of Liberal and Progressive lies.
You are right, Evengelicals (which I am) would vote for a non-Evangelical Christian. Remember Ronald Reagan?
But when it comes to a heretical and thoroughly false religion attempting to pass itself off as part of the Christian body . . . WHEN IT HAS ATTACKED EVERY SINGLE DENOMINATION AS BEING EXPELLED FROM THE CHURCH from the lips of their faith-founding "Prophet" . . . they are going to have a problem when it comes to wanting to join those that they reject from the foundation of their new American religion.
Mormons (and Mr. Romney) should have just been honest from day one. They certainly are fine conservtive Republicans. No problems there. But please no pretense of a Christian connection.
Mormons were first called "Christians" by themselves while they lived in America. The followers of the historic Christ Jesus, were first called "Christians" in Antioch two-millenia before Joseph Smith was born. And sorry Mr. Smith and YOUR followers, but the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. You are not the first group of people to get that wrong. You've heard of Liberals and Progressives obviously.
Listen, Romney's campaign failed because conservatives recognized that the man did not hold many of our beliefs as late as 1994. This "I saw the light" routine didn't pass the smell test with us. There is something uneasy about someone saying anything to get elected.
Romney grabbed almost half the evangelical vote.
Try again.
Latter-day Saints study the New Testament regularly, pray in the name of Christ, and have pictures of him all over our buildings. We celebrate Christmas and often send our children to Protestant preschools, where they fit in just fine. Others may wish to define "Christian" in a way that excludes us, but amongst ourselves, we have no doubts we are Christian. It ought to be to Romney's credit that, amidst so many allegations of inauthenticity, he talks about Jesus Christ the way Mormons usually do.
He can't win. Some accuse him of being an opportunist who change his views wherever the wind blows, while others would demand that he suppress basic tenets of his faith. Sometimes, oddly, the same people say both things.
I meant, "pictures of Him."
He lost because he's a phony. He was willing to disavow not only his past political beliefs, but even past polices that have proven over time to have worked brilliantly. If he'll do that to get the nomination...then how can you believe anything he says?
Well, I believe Jesus is the son of God and Savior of mankind. I also think defending religion from secularism buys into the greatest red herring of recent history. I'm pretty disinterested in re-electing the Sanhedrin and extremely suspicious of anyone who succeeds in politics by pandering religion.
There's this, too: It's hard to call Romney "Too Christian" when his sincerity was his biggest weakness.
It didn't help that Romney acted phonier than a three-dollar bill, so that anything he said was suspect. Evangelicals aren't unique; any group is going to distrust someone who insist that he's exactly like them, only more so.
Listen NMSTX, as a former Mormon who was on a mission, everything you say is false. The church may have pictures around to prosyletize and prove we are Christian, but the Jehovah Witnesses do too. Where does it count? In church, Christ's name and person is rarely ever mentioned. Joseph Smith is mentioned more than Christ at any meeting. In houses, you see temples and Smith, not Jesus usually. People talk about Christ only out of obligation--like they have to, but we know there is not genuine regard. Just being honest for once for the church. Christ is an afterthought. And you know this.
"and have pictures of him all over our buildings."
They had cameras 2000 years ago?
I grew up Evangelical Christian. Old reels of Dobson talking about family dynamics were some of the earliest memories I had in my Bible-Church in the 1st 1/2 of the 80s. It was rare to see a movie in church.
My Bible-Church wasn't to far from the LDS Temple under construction in Littleton at that time. We were taught explicitly that the LDS church was a cult.
The early 80s was a time the film 'The Godmakers' was being distributed. You can watch snippets of it on youtube.com (secret temple rituals, Mormon theology relating to deification).
Well, the Evangelical 'king-maker' Dobson supported Romney. My Evangelical leaning parents did too.
I gotta think that Evangelicals in Colorado Springs are shaking their heads wondering how the blatantly Evangelical organization was legitimizing what they consider to be a polytheistic cult in Dobson's tacit endorsement of Romney.
I was raised to believe that our American Founding Fathers were just as Evangelical as our own church flavor was.
I know that's BS now. Thirteen signers to the Constitution were Masons.
I have no problem with a candidate if as Jesus said his 'yes is yes' and his 'no is no'. Romney failed that miserably.
I've met many Mormons who don't believe they could make it to heaven through their own works. That would pass a Billy Graham litmus test.
So they've got the Trinity thing screwed up. How many Evangelicals understand the Trinity?
Since '94 I dropped the Evangelical thing. I could never wrap my brain around how the 'Sermon on the Mount' coincided with 'Supply Side' economics' preference for the rich.
Dobson, Robertson, Falwell, and Ralph Reed must all get it. They believe we need
Romney was such a dope, he campaigned at a car dealership in the Denver, metro area. Like we all trust car dealers? Yeah, maybe on planet Dobson.
Dobson is a piece of work to say the least. He's been moaning about how we live in a Christian country for the last two decades.
As Ben Franklin put it: Those compounded of gospel and law end up betraying both, and us as well.
Maybe Dobson should be giving lectures on condo-flipping.
It is a shame that Romney's kind of Christianity is not wanted in the Republican party. So much for the big tent acceptance of value voters. This is further evidence that the Republican party that has been formed by a large religious base can not show enough Christian good will to keep from falling apart. What goes around, comes around.
Mike,
I couldn't agree more.
Mormons are in an impossible situation. They are accused of not being Christian, their beliefs are regularly presented in a dishonest way by those who claim to be experts or former members, but if they say anything it creates a new set of problems. However, I think a very ugly underbelly of evangelicism has been exposed to the world that they should have kept under cover. Ultimately, bigotry never fares well under bright lights so congratulations to Romney for being willing to stand up to it. It won't be so difficult for the next candidate from the "wrong" religion.
Woop- I don't know when the last time you stepped in a Mormon church was which you "claim" to have served a mission for. Most of the members I know including myself have pictures of the temple, and of Jesus Christ on their wall- not Joseph Smith. EVERY talk in church, every testimony, every prayer is ended in the name of Jesus Christ- similar to swearing on the Bible in Court of days gone by.
We may mention Joseph Smith frequently- BUT it is as a prophet who we believe had a vision of who??? Jesus Christ. I don't worship Joseph Smith anymore than jews worship Moses.
Joseph Smith taught that the first principals of the Gospel are 1st Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ,..(4th Article of Faith)
I think that Romney's "Mormon" problems were dying down to some extent, but I think that Huckabee seemed happy to work to take him out for McCain- Romney being the other religious candidate was "handicapped" vs Huckabee- no local LDS bishop would have invited Romney in to speak to his congregation.
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