Do Jews STILL Like Hagee?
Friday May 23, 2008
Below is John Hagee's speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in 2007. Listen to the rousing reception. He's been repeatedly been honored for supporting Israel. The question is: how do Jews feel about Hagee now that they have...
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This is what they mean when they talk about politics making for strange bedfellows. I don't think it is healthy or wise or even especially spiritually supportable for either Jews or evangelical Christians to assume that religious devotion requires commitment to any particular version of Israeli borders or governing political party. I would imagine it would be hard for anyone who supports the continuation of Israel as a Jewish homeland in whatever configuration would be uncomfortable allying with anyone who supports the continuation of Israel as a step closer to an End of Days scenario in which only believers in Jesus will achieve the rapture.
Then, what is the point of it all? Jews are just going live with two avenues handed to them forever? Either become Muslims and wipe away all notions of Torah or become secular? Either choice dooms the Israeli's/Jews. Christians are blamed for things that they have no hand in. Christians do not want Israel or Jews to be dealt with by anyone but God. Seems rather Biblical to me.
If you read Isaiah for just a few pages, it seems that this prophet is anti-semite, as in, anti Jews. Several of the prophets threaten Israel with extinction for one reason or another. Why did God allow the holocaust? There has to be a reason for the holocaust and it has to be God-derived, or God allowed. The Jewish people have faced the prospects of annihilation many, many times and from reading their own Bible, it was from God's actions towards them. Long before Pastor Hagee has beeen around, Jews have suffered and it seems with European/secular and Muslim politics, they will for a long time afterwards.
Why IS God dealing with the Jews the way they have lived for thousands of years? There has to be an end to it all sooner or later. Are not even the Jews looking for a Redeemer that will end it all?
Christians are not the blame for the state of Israel. Their enemies are secularism and Islam.
There does not have to be a reason for the Holocaust or the Inquisition or the slaughter of millions in Cambodia, Rwanda, the Soviet Union, or Darfur or for any other man-made catastrophe (or triumph). At least, not a reason that means that God intended it to happen. God created humans with free will so that we will be responsible for our choices. I am not sure what you mean about a "Redeemer that will end it all," but the Jewish concept of a Messiah is not of an end of days but of a time of world peace.
Even if Hitler had not ordered six million Jews slaughtered and gassed, the Jews would have returned to Palastine after the WWII. They have always considered Jerulalem and Israel their homeland. It was promised to Abraham that it would always be theirs and there is no reason for them to stop beleiving that.
Now that they have returned in spite of the fact that America did not support the idea in 1948, nor did England, USSR, France or anybody else, don't expect that they will ever leave willingly. They will be there in the End Days and they believe it is God's will for them to live there.
The Arab world has to get used to the idea. God never told Ishael the land was his. The desendants of Ishmael were promised the rest of the Near Eastern Lands. They should be happy with that.
Apparenlty, the Jews are still behind Hagee:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20080524/NATION/810558402/1002
^^The Arab world has to get used to the idea. God never told Ishael the land was his. The desendants of Ishmael were promised the rest of the Near Eastern Lands. They should be happy with that.^^
Ishmael was not the Promised Child anyway. He is the product of Abram and Sarai's own work, not the LORD's [Genesis 16].
Don't confuse being pro-Israel with being pro-Jewish.
It is easy to support Israel because of some perceived divine mandate while at the same time not caring if all Jews are wiped off the planet.
Why do some Christians believe that they can precipitate the return of the Messiah?
It's the height of arrogance to assume that by creating a situation you can make Jesus return one moment earlier than he is supposed to get here.
Jews liking people like John Hagee is like Catholics supporting the Republican party because they are pro-life, as if as a faithful Catholic you believe that abortion is the only definition of being prolife and you wants to remain ignorant of all other church doctrine.
^^Don't confuse being pro-Israel with being pro-Jewish.^^
The Pharisees were "pro-Jewish."
However, the Jews are God's chosen people. While He has chosen them, not all of them have chosen Him, through His Son.
We can not reject truth. And the truth is, God said he would bring all of the tribes back to israel. He never said how. Lets look at the facts.
1) bc of Hitler the world was turned to the jewish people.
2) Bc of Hitler the Tribes of Israel were given back their land.
3) Bc of Hitler the jews were able to celebrate a nation once again
God raises up people, to judge us and to bless us. Hitler No matter what think, ended up raising awarness of the jews, and bc of what he did the jews homeland was returned to its rightful owners.
Im not saying we should honor hitler.
One last thing.... Why does every one try so hard to break up the relationship between the jewish community and hagee? are yall that threatened?
G-d bless Israel and her true people the jew's.
I pray G-d raises up warriors to defend that land, and deals harshly with those who seek to devide it.
^^Why does every one try so hard to break up the relationship between the jewish community and hagee? are yall that threatened? ^^
They are. The Devil kinow show strong that relationship is and how damaging it is to his -- the Devil's -- mission.
The Devil also knows how powerful, effective Christianity is, and that's why you see the forces of evil concentrating so much on Christianity and not Islam, nor Buddhism, nor others.
^^The Arab world has to get used to the idea. God never told Ishael the land was his. The desendants of Ishmael were promised the rest of the Near Eastern Lands. They should be happy with that.^^
Ishmael was not the Promised Child anyway. He is the product of Abram and Sarai's own work, not the LORD's [Genesis 16].
Posted by: Mr. Incredible | May 27, 2008 10:02 AM
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Additionally, Galatians 4:21-28
CLARIFICATION:
When I say that Ishmael is the product of Abram and Sarai's work, I mean to say that they took it upon themselves to "have" a child through the bondwoman. That's not what God promised them.
Then, through God's work and promise, Abram and Sarai had the Promised Child, Isaac.
Exactly how can it be known that the current "Jewish people" are actually the physical descendants of Abraham and Sarah? What if some are and some are not? Are Reform Jews covered? Conservative? What about Orthodox Jews who are not completely observant? And is the granting of some real estate in the Middle East greater than the gift of Christ? Isn't it far better to know salvation in Jesus than the promise of some land that God promised to people who may or may not be one's ancestors thousands of years ago?
^^Exactly how can it be known that the current "Jewish people" are actually the physical descendants of Abraham and Sarah?^^
Are they?
We know that those who are born again are the spiritual descendants of Abraham.
^^ What if some are and some are not?^^
Jesus said that, to be saved, one must be born again.
^^ Are Reform Jews covered? Conservative? What about Orthodox Jews who are not completely observant?^^
Again, Jesus said that He is the ONLY Way to the Father, and that one must be born again to be saved.
^^ And is the granting of some real estate in the Middle East greater than the gift of Christ?^^
As a matter of spiritual history, it is important. After all, what we see in this world is a shadow of the real thing.
Therefore, the physical land back then was a shadow of the real thing in the spiritual.
^^ Isn't it far better to know salvation in Jesus than the promise of some land that God promised to people who may or may not be one's ancestors thousands of years ago?^^
It's important to know the hisotry that got those who are born again to where they are so that they can appreciate the examples of those who went before, who experienced the things those who are born again experience. It's important to see how God worked in those who walked with Him. It is testimony, the kind of testimony we are to give today.
==Exactly how can it be known that the current "Jewish people" are actually the physical descendants of Abraham and Sarah? What if some are and some are not? Are Reform Jews covered? Conservative? What about Orthodox Jews who are not completely observant? ==
(Mat 10:28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(Luk 12:4) And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.
(Luk 12:5) But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Physical descendancy is irrelevant to Salvation. Preparation of the spirit is the important thing.
I just love the arrogance of some Christians. To many of the world's people, Christ is neither gift nor boon. Rather Christ is an external anathema foisted upon them by those whose sense of superiority cannot accept that there may be those who believe in a equally divine higher being. In that respect there is little difference between them and the Islamists, save they no longer torture non-believers.
Citing Christian scripture to refute others' beliefs is fallacy at best. At worst, it displays a flagrant disregard for others to freely believe as they choose. It is about time Christians eschew evangelizing with the same fervor they eschew Satan!
How many "Jews" were slaughtered when they were taken into captivity in Babylon. Hagee was not inappropriate in his position. In fact, it makes Hitler an even bigger loser than in just getting Germany and the Third Reich flattened. The real God has a divine purpose for His people Israel. Neither the Muslims nor the anti-semitic secular Humanists can stop the will of God.
somehow the 6 most recent posts have nothing to do with the article's topic. Too much was attrubuted to an endorsement of McCain by Rev. John Hagee, and little did Hagee know that every one of his sermons would be scrutinized for media-inflammatory messages.
Truth is, the seermon quotes about Hitler creating the conditions for the State of Israel came from the Old Testament book of Jeremiah(the hunter and the hunted). Media has distorted this beyond belief!
Like other evangelical pastors, many of Rev. Hagee's messages run along the lines of "what if this is true?" but many more stem from careful literal Scripture interpretation.
He is an unflinching supporter of Israel, and the one reason McCain originally asked for his support. Many ministers give simple lip service to this support, but not Hagee. Bridging the faith of Jews and Christians, for Israel awareness and importance of their mutual support, has seen incredible success due to Hagee's leadership.
Nowhere in the recent media frenzy was this fact reported.
Hagee withdrew his support of McCain, originally declared last February, partly due to the insults and distortions of the press that would only escalate for the rest of 2008...
"Jews are reconsidering their love?" What a distorted question!
Come on now, where is an informed conscience if all you read is the Associated Press?
The bible as we now read it has been interpreted from and into so many languages that the exact meaning of Jesus's words takes many interpretations. From my point of view, when He said that He was the way, He meant that He knew the way home to God, He knew the path our souls must take. When He was asked how we should pray, He said "Our Father who art in Heaven, Hollowed be Thy name". Jesus never said that people should pray to Him. Christians are just now admitting that Jesus was a Jewish teacher and He taught Jewish law. He taught the ten commandments. Most followers of Jesus for a couple of hundred years were Jewish, not Christians. And when Jesus said we had to be "born again" I think he meant that we had to take our opinions and old teachings and re-examine them as if it was the first time we ever heard or saw the thing. "Old things are passed away". Be as a child as you enter the kingdom of heaven or to learn the true meaning of God.
Is Isreal the only promised land for the Jewish people. When God said that this was the land that He was giving to the Jews, could he have meant that this world was theirs to dwell in and take care of and enjoy. I think that the whole world is the land of the free though following the laws that God set forth.
==I just love the arrogance of some Christians.==
Translation: "...what I think is arrogance..."
== To many of the world's people, Christ is neither gift nor boon.==
That's THEIR fault, not His.
== Rather Christ is an external anathema foisted upon them by those whose sense of superiority cannot accept that there may be those who believe in a equally divine higher being.==
Soooo, to you, Jesus was a liar when He said that He is the ONLY Way to the Father. Just say it, for His record, just for future reference.
\
==In that respect there is little difference between them and the Islamists, save they no longer torture non-believers.==
Scoffers can't see the difference.
==Citing Christian scripture to refute others' beliefs is fallacy at best.==
Translation: "I reject God and His Son, and, so, I don't accept appeals to Them. In other words, I wanna sift through evidence that I don't like before I accept anything that will change my mind."
== At worst, it displays a flagrant disregard for others to freely believe as they choose.==
Translation: "I am free to speak MY 'religion,' but they are not free to speak theirs."
== It is about time Christians eschew evangelizing with the same fervor they eschew Satan!==
Whatever THAT means.
^^The bible as we now read it has been interpreted from and into so many languages that the exact meaning of Jesus's words takes many interpretations.^^
The Devil likes it that way. What better way to confuse people as to which one is THE Word of God.
^^ From my point of view, when He said that He was the way, He meant that He knew the way home to God...^^
Yes, through Him and ONLY Him.
^^Jesus never said that people should pray to Him.^^
So what??
God, as part of Reconciliation with Man, said that we must go through His Son to access Him. That's why we pray, "in the Name of Jesus," or, "in Jesus' Name."
^^Christians are just now admitting that Jesus was a Jewish teacher and He taught Jewish law.^^
Not quite.
He taught Grace, not Law. He taught that you cannot get Grace if you are under Law.
^^ He taught the ten commandments.^^
No, He didn't.
^^ Most followers of Jesus for a couple of hundred years were Jewish, not Christians.^^
Particularly in view of the fact that Christianity -- the New Testament being effective -- didn't start until He died and was resurrected.
^^ And when Jesus said we had to be "born again" I think he meant that we had to take our opinions and old teachings and re-examine them as if it was the first time we ever heard or saw the thing.^^
Not what He said.
he said that, unless you accept Him as your Savior, you are stuck under the Law.
^^ "Old things are passed away".^^
Only for those who turn to God through Jesus.
^^...Be as a child as you enter the kingdom of heaven...^^
Not what He said.
Being as a child means to receive God's gift as a child would a gift from his parents. It also means that we are to be curious as a child in discovering the Word of God.
^^... or to learn the true meaning of God.^^
Whatever THAT means.
^^Is Isreal the only promised land for the Jewish people.^^
It's the ONLY "Promised Land" for anybody who is born again.
^^When God said that this was the land that He was giving to the Jews, could he have meant that this world was theirs to dwell in and take care of and enjoy.^^
No.
^^ I think that the whole world is the land of the free though following the laws that God set forth.^^
Though THAT is not scriptural.
--Citing Christian scripture to refute others' beliefs is fallacy at best.--
Translation: "Scripture burns my eyes, and I wish they would stop it."
--At worst, it displays a flagrant disregard for others to freely believe as they choose.--
Nobody is stopping anybody from believing what they want.
==It is about time Christians eschew evangelizing with the same fervor they eschew Satan!==
How, then, would we explain to Him our defiance of Him and disobeying of His instructions?
***It is about time Christians eschew evangelizing with the same fervor they eschew Satan!***
When He asks us, "Why did you disobey Me?" we are to excuse our disobedience by saying to Him what?
When He asks us, and we answer that YOU told us not to obey Him, is He gonna wave us through and tell us, "Oh, oh, okay. My mistake. My bad. You're cleared right on through to Heaven."
God stipulated the terms and conditions of His Reconciliation with Man [Man did not offer God reconciliation]. The Offer is that one MUST accept His Son, Jesus. No ifs, no ands, no buts, and Jesus said that, if you love Him, you'll DO what He says, and THAT means spreading the Gospel.
I was watching "The Andy Griffith Show" one fine day, the episode wherein Aunt Bea first shows up after Rose left the household.
Opie loved Rose and hated Aunt Bea. He said that Rose knew how to play baseball and fish and go frog giggin', that Aunt Bea did not.
One day, Andy, Opie and Bea went to the lake to fish, and Bea had her pole hangin' out there, and Opie asked, "Paw, if she knows so much 'bout fishin', how come she holds the bait outta the water?"
That's a good question for those who claim to be born again, and, essentially, what Jesus will ask them, "Why do you not take My Word into the world, but, rather, keep it from the world where they can't get it?" Now, isn't THAT what the Church of England did to the soon-to-be-settlers? The Church held the Word outta reach of those who needed it.
So, evangelism is key to the life of those who are born again, unless they are Aunt Beas.
NO PAIN, NO GAIN! I believe that Jewish leaders, especially the prominent ones such as ADL National Director Abraham Foxman, should think twice before withdrawing their alliance with any non-Jewish pro-Israel/pro-Zionist leader either here in America or elsewhere. Let’s face it; modern Israel has far too many overt and covert enemies to be breaking alliances with any of its far too few outspoken friends that may in their exuberance, sincerity and determination cross lines of religious belief, political correctness (don’t hurt anyone’s feelings) or conciliatory diplomacy (concession). Jewish leaders like Mr. Foxman perplex me. Surely Mr. Foxman knows his Hebrew Bible (Christian Old Testament for the most part) well enough to know that Reverend Hagee for all the GREAT sermons and GREAT speeches that he has given over the last 40 years in support of and defense of Israel against its enemies has never to my knowledge ever said anything that is GREATER, MORE PROVOKING or more UNLIKE the oft-times warning and condemning words of the major Prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel (notwithstanding the words of the other lesser prophets) if God’s laws and ordinances were not obeyed. So where’s the problem? If it’s our feelings and emotions being hurt or offended, rather than our hearts and minds being centered on Love of God, then there is really a problem indeed. Israel’s very survival at this moment in time solely depends on it’s devotion to the war against its enemies; and there is NO peace with its enemies for they are determined and not retractable in their goal to DESTROY Israel, root and stump, as well as committing genocide in the process. Let me say this metaphorically: A GREAT and WINNING sports team suffers and accepts the provoking chastisements of its coaches willingly or SUFFERS DEFEAT – NO PAIN, NO GAIN.
with friends like him we don't need enemies. i have read some of his off line comments such as thinking we are all going to cry when jesus coms back.
some of the comments above are really arrogant, we don't need to accept jesus, he isn't our savior or messiah for that matter.
we don't need to hear the good news.
it isn't our religion and we don't accept it.
you are free to believe as you will, don't shove it on us.
i dont' like the two faced ness of hagee , saying one thing to jews and something else some were else.
no were in our religion are we taught to accept a man as g-d.some jews are so anxious to be accepted.
don't :it has never gotten us any were.
To the the June 2 poster who wrote: "== It is about time Christians eschew evangelizing with the same fervor they eschew Satan!==
Whatever THAT means."
es·chew –verb (used with object) to abstain or keep away from; shun; avoid: to eschew evil.
I wonder how you can read and UNDERSTAND your sacred texts if your grasp of the English language is apparently so lacking?
==I wonder how you can read and UNDERSTAND your sacred texts if your grasp of the English language is apparently so lacking?==
Scoffers don't care and DON'T understand:
(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
(1Co 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
(1Co 3:20) And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
So...
Is Jesus a liar??? Go ahead, write it, for the record.
Why would a person who is born again wanna eschew evangelism, when Jesus told him to evangelize???? Only the Devil tells those who are born again not to do what Jesus told them to do. Only the Devil wants everybody to keep from the Word of God.
They can't touch us:
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Obama seems to strike out over and over with Evangalists, doesn't he? He is not keeping very good company. But then there is a famous old saying, "Never trust a pious man." As far as Hagee, it may be that he would like to see ALL the Jews in Israel, and has supported them with THAT in mind. I, for one, will stay in America, thank you.
Stewart
Jesus is the King of the Jews...I'm a Christian...I love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel...may God's will be done...he loves the Jews and the Gentiles!
Do you suppose Hagee wants all the Jews in Israel and that is why he supports their going to Israel, and why made his incredibly outlandish statement about Hitler, one of the ghouls of history? Well, the good thing is it has disclosed his idiocy to the public in this campaign.
In any event, I, for one, choose to remain here in America where I was born, thank you.
Stewart
I have been wondering for sometime how long it would the Jewish people to understand what John Hagee and other "evangelical christians" are really about.Their support of Isreal is based solely on their own "salvation" i.e. looking for the "rapture" ASAP. They perceive that they can bring about the "End Times" they are looking for by their own actions. Seems to me to be very, may I say, "elitist". They and only they have the true understanding and the correct interpertation of Bibical prophecy. It is difficult for me me to see how they can call themselves christian.
I would like to suggest that the Jewish people as well as the people in the US closely examine the entire "theology" of the "christian evangelicals". Check out the origins of the "End Times" doctrine that is driving these folks.
I believe the Bible and the Torah both state that God blesses those who bless Israel. As a Christian I am very much looking forward to the return of Jesus. I dont believe Pastor Hagee has the power or any other evangelist to usher in a quicker return of God, he has is own timetable. I would think that the Jewish people would appreciate all the Pastor is trying to do for the Jewish state. His heart is with God. All of us have said things in life that has been twisted for others to use against us, when in reality we meant no harm at all. I do know that he loves Israel He will wear many crowns in heaven. God Bless you all.
Hi Beliefnet friends,
As a Jewish person who has admired Pastor Hagee and appreciated his support of Israel I would like to add my 2 cents to the question.
I know this man is a Christian and that his beliefs and opinions are going to be biased and founded on his own religion.
So what - we Jews do not believe G-d judges humankind for what they believe so much as for how we treat one another. Actions are the measure of how sincere a person is. A person's actions are the measure of a person's love or in other words: "Walking the talk".
Mr. Hagee is preaching to his congregation to love the Jews! This is a bad thing? Does this mean I have to run like crazy for high ground because a doctrine being spouted is highly questionable from my religious viewpoint? Heck no. So what if Christian love for us is based on their end time doctrine. Yes, their preaching may sound a bit condescending and pompous at times, yet, I believe there are many Christians that sincerely love the Jews and pray whole heartedly for Israel. We are being threatened because they pray for us and send $$ to Israel? Would that all the Gentiles hate us this way!!
I believe many Christians do not really know or understand our relationship to HaShem, our G-d, the Creator of the Universe, our Father, our King, or our world view, our Scripture commentaries, our traditions, or our cultures. And that is OK. We can always respectfully agree to disagree.
When a Christian asks me what I believe I share my Siddur. I have found the couple of times I have done this my Christian friends have been very surprised and have returned my prayer book to me a bit humbled - "I had no idea" - "the prayers are so beautiful" "so much Scripture" "so much depth, faith". I gave a High Holy Day prayer book to a minister who was an apt. manager and I couldn't get it back, he considered it such a treasure! He remarked, "Christians need to be praying this way". I look at our different beliefs this way: Their "stuff" is between HaShem and them and our "stuff" is between HaShem and us period.
What are our obligations to the Gentiles as fellow humankind? I think we all know the answer to that. Are they treating us like they believe Jesus would want them to? Hummmmmm - time will tell.
Shalom All - Chanalee
Israel is the safest place for Jews. Why be intimidated by that? I would love to go back to Israel and perhaps be able to volunteer in the ISRAELI ARMY. My husband does not want to, so my alligiance is to him first, the love of my life! As a Christian Minister, I would like to comment on Rev. John Hagee> He is positioned by G-d to rally a great wave of support in the behalf of Israel and the Jewish people. Is this a bad thing? Has he once said that there was any catch to what he required of Christians to be there, to Biblically stand in the gap and make up the hedge in behalf of Israel and the Jewish people? I say, SHAME ON YOU! You are slapping the hand that may be willing to give THEIR LIFE FOR YOU some day. Remember SHINDLER? Remember CORRIE TEN BOON? My husband is not a Messianic Jew. His Mother was a Cohen who married a Cohen. Your Bible and mine teaches that in the last days that G-d will turn the Fathers to the Sons lest He come and smite the earth with a curse. You are the Fathers of the Faith and we are the Sons. We need each other. Please reconsider your HATE STAND, one that is willing to SEPARATE US. Instead of directing your HATE to friends of Israel, why not direct it with concern for those who are NOT FRIENDS OF ISRAEL. Know that what the Bible teaches is true and will remain true. God Blesses those who BLESS ISRAEL and He will curse those who curse Israel. LET US BE A BLESSING TO YOU! WILL YOU?
^^we Jews do not believe G-d...^^
Isn't THAT also the abbreviation for taking the LORD's Name in vain???
^^... judges humankind for what they believe...^^
Except that belief is the major component of faith. In other words, "Do you believe that faith works?"
^^... so much as for how we treat one another.^^
Not scriptural.
^^ Actions are the measure of how sincere a person is.^^
That is what Muslims believe, that faith is external, that one can perform his way to Heaven, that self-righteousness is the ticket. The Pharisees thought that, too. So do the Catholics. They cannot cuz they cannot be perfect following the Law. They need the Grace of God and that is a gift of faith in Him through His Son. Christianity is internal, internal change.
They need Grace that comes only through being born again. It's necessary to be born again cuz-a Adam and Eve; we are all, what, conceived in iniquity and born in sin, thanks to them.
^^A person's actions are the measure of a person's love...^^
That is part of the equation, no all of it. It doesn't work without the other parts.
God loved and loves. Outta that love, He had faith. Outta that faith, He was willing to act. He acted by speaking. He created by saying. First, He said, "Light be!" It isn't the light of the sun, nor of the moon, rather the Light of John 1.
So, God acted outta love. By speaking and creating and promising.
^^...or in other words: "Walking the talk".^^
Those who are born again are fellow laborers with God in His Mission to create Light in others -- that is, by speaking the Word of God. We walk that talk, or else. That is His Ambition and it is the mission of those who are born again. It is not the mission of those not born again.
The Judaic stones currently being hurled at Pastor Hagee for his reference to God’s radical governance of Judaic history, ...when all good liberal Jews know that the truth of such governance is a lie,... remind me of the stones that were hurled at Jerry Lewis for the selfishness implicit in his explicit concern for the welfare of children suffering from various degenerative diseases. If only the parents had been wiser, then they would have condemned and put an end to the ‘Lewis’ monies risen for the lives of their children, whom they rather should have taught that is better to die in selfless hands than to live thru hands that selfishly move to help them.
....Ut Omnes sit Unum Precor.
Re: The comments of Chana on June 3 at 1:44pm
I enjoyed your comments. They show such warmth and tolerence.
Re: the idea of being born in sin and it was because of Adam and Eve,
We are born perfect. God makes perfect things. I see sin as being a distance from God. We strive not to make the distance wide so we follow the commands and maintain our love for God so that we are close to Him. When we are born and our soul enters the human body, we are then separated from God's spiritual world but we are not born bad. The Christian faith I grew up in saw sin as a horrible punishable thing. I see sin as a wandering down the wrong road away from God and being away from God means being unhappy and sick in soul and or spirit. We all know when we are on the wrong raod because we are not content. I have yet to understand the meaning of the Adam/Eve story. So many things I may never know. I don't need to know now. But one thing I have a hard time accepting and that is that a loving Creator would punish thousands of years of people because of something that one person did at the beginning of time. Would God have spent thousands of years putting sinful bad people on His earth?
==We are born perfect.==
Adam and Eve were born perfect. They disobeyed, and, thereby, we are born unrighteous, imperfect. That's why we must be born again.
== God makes perfect things.==
However, men mess it up, and, according to God's offer of Reconciliation, we must follow His instructions to get clean. If we disobey, we are not cleansed, and we remain messed up.
==When we are born and our soul enters the human body...==
If God knew us in the womb, when we have our spirit in the womb.
==...we are then separated from God's spiritual world but we are not born bad.==
In God's view, we are. He says that we are all as filthy rags, unrighteous and wicked. That's why we must be born again.
== The Christian faith I grew up in saw sin as a horrible punishable thing.==
It IS horrible.
== I see sin as a wandering down the wrong road away from God and being away from God means being unhappy and sick in soul and or spirit.==
Then you disagree with what God says about it.
==I have yet to understand the meaning of the Adam/Eve story.==
Maybe you're not meant to understand cuz you're not fully on board; maybe YOU're hindering.
==I don't need to know now.==
Jesus says different.
==...one thing I have a hard time accepting and that is that a loving Creator would punish thousands of years of people because of something that one person did at the beginning of time.==
Job was visited with utter adversity and he reacted quite differently from you:
(Job 1:22) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
It's not as though He doesn't give them a Way out. If they reject that Way out, that's their choice, and they have disobeyed. God cannot protect the disobedient, cannot and will not treat them the way He treats the obedient. He separates the goats from the sheep. He loves as, but that love, like any good parent, does not stay His Hand in discipline and justice.
== Would God have spent thousands of years putting sinful bad people on His earth?==
He didn't. Men messed it up. Blame them. They chose.
^^We are born perfect. God makes perfect things. ^^
Really?
Then why must we be born again? If we are perfect the first time, regardless of Adam and Eve, then why the need to be made perfect the second time??? Was Jesus' trip a waste of time and effort, then?
--we don't need to accept jesus...--
You do, but, if you don't, that's YOUR choice, and you oughta be big enough to accept the consequences of your choice.
--he isn't our savior or messiah for that matter.--
He is, but you can reject Him. He said you would.
--we don't need to hear the good news. --
The Devil says the same thing!
--it isn't our religion and we don't accept it.--
Doesn't impact on our Salvation. Only yours.
--you are free to believe as you will...--
Gee, thanks.
--... don't shove it on us. --
Translation: "You people are forcing us to confront our conscience and we don't like it."
You mean that merely posting and speaking is "shoving it on " you?????
--We are born perfect. God makes perfect things.--
Not as we amended and amend what He made perfect. That amendment is what separates us from Him.
Thanks to Adam and Eve, we are born imperfect. God didn't make anybody imperfect, ungodly. This is why we must be born again. Those who are not born again remain imperfect. They try, in their own might, to be perfect, but they can't be perfect without God through His Son. They remain guilty.
Those who are born again are perfect in Christ, not themselves. The Grace of God -- Jesus -- saves us, and we, through Him, are not guilty:
(Act 17:29) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Dear Overhome - this is from Chana
About the Adam and Eve story - Here is a commentary from a famous Chasidic Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson translated by Rabbi Tzvi Freeman in the book "Bringing Heaven Down To Earth":
Adam trudged past the gates of Eden, his head low, his feet heavy with remorse and pain.
Then he stopped; spun around and exclaimed, "Wait a minuet! You had this all planned! You put that fruit there knowing I would eat from it! This is all a plot!"
There was no reply.
Without failure, Man can never truly reach into the depths of his soul. Only once he has failed, can he return and reach higher and higher without end. Beyond Eden,
This story makes me smile - I hope it does u too - Shalom all
=="Wait a minuet [sic]! You had this all planned! You put that fruit there knowing I would eat from it! This is all a plot!"==
Is this intended to indicate that God put the impulse into Eve to eat from THAT tree [she ate first]??? If that's so, then we have no choice, even though God puts blessing and curse before us, telling us to choose blessing.
However, Scripture cannot contradict Itself. If He gave us choice, then THAT interpretation is wrong.
In any case,
(Job 1:22) In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.
The Scripture cannot contradict itself?
If you ever made a little wall chart of the toledoth, that is, the generations of humankind after Adam as they are listed in Genesis, you'd notice that Adam somehow managed to find a life preserver and float alongside Noah and that Noah was still around at the time of Christ.
Ah, Scripture cannot contradict itself. So then you'd be saying that Scripture is not to be interpreted literally? And if there are discrepancies among the Gospels, then maybe the message isn't literal there, either? How, oh, how could we ever find Biblical truth.
Simple, I think. The Word was a Person, not a book. The Good Book says so. And maybe that United Church of Christ (or Methodist or any number of other non-Fundamendalist groups) thing about "still speaking" isn't so far off, after all. And wasn't there a promise in the Bible that there would be a day God wrote His word on human hearts? Or can we snip that out of the Bible?
==The Scripture cannot contradict itself?==
Correct. Contradictions are in scoffers' minds.
==If you ever made a little wall chart of the toledoth, that is, the generations of humankind after Adam as they are listed in Genesis, you'd notice that Adam somehow managed to find a life preserver and float alongside Noah and that Noah was still around at the time of Christ.==
The Word of God is not, necessarily, in chronological order.
==So then you'd be saying that Scripture is not to be interpreted literally? ==
It's not to be interpreted privately.
==And if there are discrepancies among the Gospels...==
There aren't.
==...then maybe the message isn't literal there, either?==
The Word of God is literally true.
==How, oh, how could we ever find Biblical truth.==
Those who are not born again can't.
==The Word was a Person, not a book. The Good Book says so.==
The Word was flesh and became a Book to represent the spiritual thing. Types and shadows. Scoffers don't get that, either.
==And maybe that United Church of Christ (or Methodist or any number of other non-Fundamendalist groups) thing about "still speaking" isn't so far off, after all.==
God is saying nothing new. He said all there is to say in two Testaments. He feels that they are enough to keep us busy for quite a while, and, after so long a time, far too many STILL don't get It. They haven't got much time left.
The problem with the feeling that God is still speaking is that we wouldn't be able to know who is speaking cuz we'd never know, finally, what God's Will is. What He speaks must align with theWord as it is. That's why It is set and finished and done at the Cross, so that we might know His Voice and avoid the Tempter's temptations. Some Christians STILL can't tell. Amazing.
==And wasn't there a promise in the Bible that there would be a day God wrote His word on human hearts?==
Yes, and so many ignore it and go their own way.
== Or can we snip that out of the Bible?==
That's YOUR choice. Too many do.
Job found G-D'S Ways hard to understand
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