Does In Vitro Fertilization = Abortion?

I think this article is fair, because it exposes the text of ''Dignitas Personae'' in a clear way, at least for people who have already read it.

I feel that this is good on the part of Beliefnet, because many of its articles relating to the Church are written by ''lapsed Catholics'', people that have left the Church, or who have almost no sympathy for it, or who don't really know her.

I would like to echo rollo1's comment and thank Mr. Waldman for his accurate post on this topic, and for posting the full text of the Vatican's document.

I am a reproductive endocrinologist (fertility specialist). I perform IVF. Couples who have IVF are INFERTILE, and are usually desparate to have a child. These are not people having a cosmetic procedure on a whim, because it's trendy or fashionable. They have desparately tried to have children by natural means, the way nature intended. But it has not worked...in fact, it may have created much emotional discord in their lives, marriages, etc. In other words, IVF is a last resort. Patients often feel robbed of a god-given right to bear children...something that can be so easily accomplished by any careless teenager who doesn't want pregnancy. It hurts them at the core of their being, and is a very personal and often embarrassing problem for them to deal with. I would encourage some of you to put yourselves in their shoes before you pass any judgement...you might be surprised at the choices you would find yourself making.

IVF embryos grow and develop in the laboratory, and approximately 50% of them (at least) are genetically abnormal and never correctly develop. These would most likely not result in a viable pregnancy if implanted into the woman. Usually, they do not even result in pregnancy. Another factor is a woman's age...which also decreases the likelihood of pregnancy. Therefore, we save all embryos that we reasonably think will have a chance, and give every couple as many chances as possible. In addition, there is incredible care and attention given to embryos. There is respect for their disposition...if for no other reason, because they are so important to the couples who own them...but hopefully for higher reasons as well.

There is so much "dogma" surrounding sexuality and reproduction in our society...everyone is afraid to frankly discuss it or experience it. It is such a taboo for so many people. What a terrible shame! I am Catholic, and i respect the Catholic Church's positiion, but i frankly think that what is most important is to help the couples who experience infertility and show them compassion...as Jesus would do. In the bible there is the account of Abraham being promised that his infertile wife would bear children and his ofspring would be as numerous as the stars. Unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of God coming out of the clouds and directly promising anyone such a thing. In our times, we are given the technology of IVF...and like all things, it is a creation that God has given us, just as God has given us all things. As for our infertile couples, I'm sorry, but brushing them off with a bunch of rules and regulations, and threatening them with eternal damnation is just cruel in my opinion. And it comes from a group of men and women who "swore off" reproducing to be holy men and women. I can't see these holy people ever being able to place themselves in the shoes of an infertile couple.

Scientifically IVF embryo is fully human and alive. Thus, the moral question is: "Under what condition is it morally right to take the life of another human being?" Is it morally right to defend the lives of self or others when a terrorist is in the process of killing you? Is it morally right to take the life of others simply because another human being inconvenience you or simply to fulfill your emotional desire?

I know infertile couples who chose adoption as the last resort and others who chose to dedicate their lives to humanity as the last resort. Adoption is a compassionate option as it reduces the problem of unwanted babies. Dedicating self to the betterment of the world is also a compassionate action.

Do couples who undergo abortion or IVF understand that an embyo a living human being? Studies have shown that women with unwanted pregnancies often cancel the abortion once they see their embryo using sonogram.

May we all make the right choice based on sufficient truth?

My apologies for the sarcasm of that last post.

I have IVF children, and love them with all my heart. I went through all of the decisions personally that couples make when deciding upon IVF. I went through all the guilt imposed by church, and also by people like yourselves who believe that your right and wrong is the only solution. In the end, i listened to my heart. Because no one else can know my life experience the way i do.

I have found in my life that sometimes the "rule book" does not work, as there are just no morally good outcomes for some situations. I think, in this case, one must follow their heart and "to thine own self be true", realizing that God loves us no matter what we do.

Let's give you an example: Let's assume you marry someone, then afterward you discover that they have a sexual dysfunction that makes them unable to have phsyical intimacy. In fact, they refuse to seek help, and it leads to bitter feelings, frustration, and damages your marriage. Such feelings, which are not loving feelings, could be considered sinful. You could choose to live the rest of your life as a married, bitter, celibate individual. For those who say that sexuality and intimacy are not important, or "tough it out", or "pray to the lord for guidance", i suspect you will still be bitter. You could obtain an annullment (a church-condoned divorce)which would potentially publicly embarrass your spouse. It would also send a message that they are only loved on the condition that they have sexual function. You could also decide to have an extramarital affair or obtain a divorce. Both of these would be considered sinful. For this individual, there are no good choices.
My point is: no one else can appreciate your experience of your life...and therefore, no one else should set YOUR RULES for YOUR LIFE. You should make your own decisions about your life instead of refusing to think for yourself and deferring to rules handed down by men in pointy hats, because they do not know or understand your experience, no matter how much they/believe they have the authority to do so.
I think that organized religions basically divide people by saying "i'm right and you're wrong"..."i'm better than you are because i live by the rules (most of the time) and you don't"..."i will pray for you, and you'll see the light (that i am right)". These are the same attitudes Jesus criticized in the Pharisees and scribes. Remember, Jesus himself went against the grain of his society by criticizing the rules of his religion (Judaism). I am of the opinion that this is a lesson from Jesus that should be applied in modern times too...that sometimes our organized religions can also be like scribes and pharisees.

Just my 2 cents...

"Jesus himself went against the grain of his society by criticizing the rules of his religion (Judaism)."

No, he didn't criticize Mosaic Law, he criticized the hypocritical way in which it was being carried out. Pharisees paying tribute to God with their lips and their rituals, but without any true devotion, without any charity toward their neighbors.

Remember, Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not erase it. That Law that He came to fulfill includes "Thou Shall Not Kill".

With all due respect to the Catholic Church, the Pope, and Christians around the world. I think everyone should do whatever gives them peace in their hearts. If the rules of the Church do this...great! If those rules do so for the posters on this IVF topic who believe IVF is murder...great!
Maybe we could spin this a different way...cigarette smokers and alcohol users are murderers too. They are slowly poisoning their systems with toxins that are PROVEN to cause illness and disease. Second hand smoke causes just as much illness as smoking yourself. Alcohol causes liver disease and hypertension. How about overeating and obesity...i wonder how many believers that IVF is murder are Obese, drink alcohol regularly, or smoke? Well, you are slowly murdering yourselves (and possibly others) with these habits...you are just doing it over 25 years rather than in an instant, as with suicide. But you probably will never nit-pick over those habits, if you enjoy alcohol, tobacco, and overeating.
I am only commenting that church laws do not give peace to all people (even many Catholics) who are following these laws due to fear in their hearts. God gives us all free will to live our lives. God also loves us beyond measure. However, what good is free will if we are not free to employ it? How can there be free will that comes with a price of damnation if we don't choose the choice that "the church wants"? In other words, how free are you choices if someone is looming over you with the threat of punishment...you can either choose "God's choice" (dictated by church) or make the choice to perish in hell. That is not a choice. Although an extremem example..that would be like being a prisoner of war and being forced to make the choice of the "enemy" or be tortured. I happen to believe that God allows you to be the creater of your own life..and God wants you to make the best choices to live your life to the fullest potential to be like the creator that he is. I think we are hypocritical to think that a discarded embryo does not somehow fit into God's plan as well, and that the soul that may/may not occupy that embryo didn't itself choose this destiny at the beginning of time to fulfill it's own purpose. I'm sorry, but i just don't think that you, or i, or the Church, or the Pope, have all the answers to the deep and complex mysteries of the universe. Believe whatever you want...but if it doesn't serve you well and give you peace in your heart, it is of no service to you. For many, IVF brings about the joy of having a family when all others said it was impossible.

I understand the desire of couples to have children but I consider it to be very selfish to demand that those children be biologically connected to you - which is what IVF comes down to. It isn't that the couple simply wants a child/children - if that were the case then they could adopt. It is that the want a SPECIFIC child (the correct sex, the correct genes, etc) and therefore are willing to sacrifice other potential children in the process. The Church may not be able to convince people like Mike not to do it - but perhaps writings like this will at least convince us to consider what we are doing and make our choices more conscious.

I agree with Gerald. We must use just means to achieve just ends.

I am perplexed at the divide on such an issue. It is extremely sad and troublesome.

Many people view the Church as some great evil despot that seeks to control people's minds and actions. That is unfortunate. I think the Church (among others) can be a great source of guidance and wisdom on extremely complex moral issues. After all, these matters are what they discern and deliberate continuously.

Has the Church made mistakes in the past? Of course. Have there and are there bad people within the organization? For sure. Is there any organization within the history of man without such corruption? No. Not unless they were aliens.

The Church is supposed to proclaim the good news and message of Jesus Christ. Some people feel that when the ugliness of humanity surfaces from within the Church (i.e. priest scandal), it is a license to discredit the entire institution. Not so. If a son is born to a father who commits murder, is the son subject to the same destiny? Of course not. Many people believe that George W. Bush is a terrible person. Does this mean that America is terrible? That would be absurd.

One does not have to be a Christian to recognize that given two choices, one is ultimately better, as is the case here. I had a friend who was raised in the south and was brought up to dispise blacks. He said to me that one night, as a teenager, he spent some time in prayer meditating racism. At age 15, he was able to conclude by himself that racism was wrong. I feel that most people can reach the same conclusion (truth) for themselves if only they give themselves a chance.

Regardless of what the media tells us, our lives are not just about us as individuals. Life is not about self indulgence. We have an obligation to protect the environment for future generations. We must fight to champion equality among men. We must sacrifice ourselves so that we benefit as a planet and as a race.

When I contemplate these very serious issues, I imagine two separate Earths existing at the same time with the same components independent of one another. As they are set in motion, which one will depict a more favorable picture of humanity over time? Which planet will last longer, be happier, more peaceful, more prosperous and more glorious? The Earth whose inhabitants seek to feed one another or the Earth whose people strive to feed themselves as individuals?

There is always a better choice and there is always one truth.