For weekend blogging by Mark Silk visit his blog, Spiritual Politics. He will continue filling in for Steven Waldman on Monday, March 23.
Guest post by Mark Silk.
Gay marriage is on the march in New England. On Friday, Vermont’s state senate judiciary committee unanimously approved a bill to permit same-sex couples to wed. If both houses of the legislature agree (expected), and the governor signs (unclear), Vermont, the first state to approve civil unions, would join Massachusetts and Connecticut as the only states in the union where couples can marry regardless of gender. Meanwhile, similar bills are on tap in New Hampshire and Maine. Rhode Island may not be far behind.
What explains stolid old New England’s readiness to be out in front on this most contentious of social issues? To some extent, there’s a geographical domino effect when it comes to social change. Massachusetts, which once owned Maine and borders on every other New England state, has not dissolved into moral disarray (any more than usual) since gay marriage was instituted there in 2005. Demonstrably, civilization as we have known it in Red Sox Nation has not come to an end. But there’s a religious dimension to the story as well.
Roman Catholicism is by far the biggest religious tradition in the region, and its several bishops have not been shy about putting their shoulders to wheel to stop gay marriage. Unfortunately for them, however, New England Catholics don’t tend to like imposing their church’s religious views on others. They remember when they were objects of religious strong-arming by the Puritan Yankees who were there ahead of them. And then, the moral standing of the New England episcopate has not, of late, been high. The Boston archdiocese was the epicenter of the great pedophile cover-up scandal of 2002-04, and lost a cardinal in the process.
But finally, as the just released American Religious Identity Survey makes crystal clear, Catholicism is in stunning decline in the region, while the number of those who claim no religion has been on the rapid rise. Vermont is now, by far, the least religious state in the nation, with fully one-third of its adult citizens answering “none” to the question, “What is your religion, if any?” The religious opposition to gay marriage that exists in America today is, simply, a lot weaker in New England than elsewhere.
Check out Mark Silk’s blog, Spiritual Politics.
posted March 20, 2009 at 6:09 pm
New England will lead the nation in regards to social equality and and LGBT acceptance. I consider myself so lucky to live here.
posted March 20, 2009 at 6:52 pm
The New England sates have a tradition of putting science ahead of hateful, spite filled religious superstition. They led the way in abolition, now they are at the vanguard of granting us human status.
God can only be pleased to see people practicing his dictate of love.
posted March 20, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Way to go, Vermont!! Try being Gay and living in Texas. It’s the pits. People here understand babies having babies, racism to the core!! and they understand the Bible when it talks about Homosexuality, but everything else that the Bible teaches straight people, escapes them. How convienient.)
posted March 20, 2009 at 9:39 pm
Yea! This is definitely great news. I live in a New England state, but not Vermont. I hope someday my state will get it’s act together and do the same.
posted March 21, 2009 at 12:28 am
I’m glad that New England leads the West in the march to equality. To hear reformed polygamists pontificate on the sanctity and immutability of marriage as “one man and one woman” is absurd. That this politically connected, tax-exempt, rich, Mormon church should collaborate with the Roman Catholic church to remove the rights of people is unacceptable. Personally, I think all churches should be taxed like any other corporations. The hypocrisy is stunning. The self-righteousness even more so. How does extending marriage to any loving, legally competent couple weaken it for anyone?
Personally, in Canada the definition of marriage should apply in the US as well: “Marriage is the union of two people to the exclusion of all others.” Did you see the “period” at the end? If you are “shocked, shocked” that same-sex couples love each other and want their relationships protected and seek the Federal, State, and local benefits (and are willing to accept the concomitant responsibilities), then your church doesn’t have to solemnize such unions. But the State should grant civil marriage contracts to any qualified couple. If that is “ramming the gay agenda down people’s throats” well, these are the same throats no doubt who opposed desegregation and, 150 years ago, would use the same Bible to say that “slavery is biblical” and therefore OK too. That mentality will always be on the wrong side of justice and history, and always must be opposed. Thank God Obama and the Democrats are in control now!
posted March 21, 2009 at 1:07 am
I am not sure why Mr Silk included the historic footnote that Mass. used to “own” Maine. But with that in mind, Conn. is exercising its right of original “ownership” over Ohio – erstwhile known as the Western Reserve – and declaring Same gender marriage is legal there, too.
New England has always been ahead of the curve – even California’s curve. As a former New Englander – though you can never shake it off completely, I am proud they are continuing that heritage and tradition of national leadership. Ohio, you are next. Can Iowa be far behind?
Hey the Got’cha Security ‘Skeeter is still here – it was not on the Jesus Creed page. Phooey
posted March 21, 2009 at 11:00 am
==God can only be pleased to see people practicing his dictate of love.==
Try to tell us what Godly “love” is.
Did Jesus love the Devil in the wilderness?
Will God save those who reject Him just cuz He loves them?
Is Godly “love” acceptance even of what God says He detests?
posted March 21, 2009 at 11:23 am
==God can only be pleased to see people practicing his dictate of love.==
Does God’s love preclude His justice that He promised? Soooo, when a parent tells his kid that he will punish the kid if the kid disobeys, the parent DOESN’T mean it?
posted March 21, 2009 at 11:47 am
==Thank God Obama and the Democrats are in control now!==
Don’t thank Him. Thank the “other one.”
posted March 21, 2009 at 12:21 pm
If the support for Prop. 8 led to a minor setback on the road to human rights for homosexuals in the US, it served a vital purpose.
Today, we know just how far our enemies, the conservative Christians, are willing to go in their attacks.
We know that they truly will dissolve existing gay marriages when they can.
We know that they will strip children from their parents.
We know that they will prevent two people who have committed their lives to each other from being together when one is at his or her deathbed.
Some even demand that we turn away from God and worship the devil, denying us even our Christianity.
I would never presume or dare to even guess at the depths of God’s love for us, but it doesn’t hurt one bit to bear His definition of love as we Christians are to live it in mind.
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
I Corinthians
Certainly not much of this is to be found among most of those conservative Christians we encounter here on Beliefnet. The depth of their hatred even extends to telling us to abandon God and turn to the devil.
posted March 21, 2009 at 4:18 pm
Mr. Incredible, you are wrong. Sorry, but you and most of the others who believe the Bible is the word of God, have missed that it is really a big LIE wrapped around a kernel of truth.
Adam was naked from the time God created him. God loved him just as he made him. It was when Adam was told by Satan (Serpent and apple) that being naked was a sin, that Adam, yes Adam, withdrew from God, not the other way around. Once this happened, Adam was afraid of God. As Adam feared God, he could no longer love God.
Jesus came to tell us that God forgives us and understands who and what we are. He is not going to judge us for being naked, or being who and what we are. However, if we recoil from God because we believe what others tell us about our nature being an ‘abomination’, then it will be WE who refuse God, not the other way around.
Even the Catholic Church teaches that sin requires that you know it is wrong… It is not the act, it is guilt that makes us recoil from God. The message was clear, Love God with your heart and soul – not fear Him, Treat your neighbor as yourself. That is the message, not who you choose to love or have sex with.
The rest is an invention of the Devil to keep us from accepting God as our Loving Father. The enemy of God is the one who calls you to hate in His name. The one who tells you that God does not love the person you are, so you should hate yourself. If you recoil in fear, like a puppy who is afraid of it’s master, how can you truly embrace a God who accepts you just as He made you?
posted March 21, 2009 at 6:42 pm
Wow, Joshua, your name fits you perfectly.
That was sooo cool!
I have long since learned that some people here thrive on hatred, so ignore them. But that answer is so awesome, I hope it strikes a chord in even the most hateful heart around here.
posted March 21, 2009 at 9:47 pm
It was the “other one” that brought us Bush the Antichrist, who was served by his minions, conservative Christians.
posted March 21, 2009 at 9:57 pm
Vermont was, to my knowledge, the first place on Earth to make slavery a crime back in the Vermont Republic of 1777. It is good to know that our absolute commitment to human rights still holds true more than two centuries later. Hurray for Vermont, the little state that could, leading humanity forward out of the darkness of hatred again!
posted March 22, 2009 at 12:26 pm
==we know just how far our enemies, the conservative Christians, are willing to go in their attacks.==
That’s the one, everybody, who, in the thread, “The Abortion Challenge,” wants us to agree to sit down with his/her likes and discuss “solutions” [read: "pro-choice=pro-abortion=wrong-choice solutions and to listen to our [Lib] insults”].
posted March 22, 2009 at 12:30 pm
“…some people here thrive on hatred, so ignore them. ==
Translation: “Those who don’t agree with me are hateful. So, ignore them even though I said, in another thread, that we should sit down together and solve problems. Don’t mind me cuz I can’t keep track of what I say in one place, or the other.”
posted March 22, 2009 at 12:57 pm
==Mr. Incredible, you are wrong.==
Of course, I am not.
== Sorry, but you and most of the others who believe the Bible is the word of God, have missed that it is really a big LIE wrapped around a kernel of truth.==
Yes, I missed that cuz the Devil’s lie about Him are worth missing.
==Adam was naked from the time God created him.==
In what sense?
In the physical sense, he was physically without clothes. Howdever, that has nothing to do with the spiritual journey.
In the spiritual sense, it is not true; Adam was not guilty until he and Eve jumped.
== God loved him just as he made him.==
God did not make Adam into a sinner. God made him Righteous, in His Image. That’s the first Creation of Man by God. Adam made himself unrighteous, in his own image. That’s the second creation of Man, by by himself. Through Christ, those who are born again are created by God another time. The last time. Those who reject God and His Son remain in the image of Adam.
God’s love does not preclude His justice, however.
== It was when Adam was told by Satan (Serpent and apple)…==
Satan didn’t tempt Adam. He tempted Eve who tempted Adam.
==… that being naked was a sin, that Adam, yes Adam, withdrew from God, not the other way around.==
The separation — sin — is effective no mater how you look at it.
== Once this happened, Adam was afraid of God.==
Much like today’s sinners.
== As Adam feared God, he could no longer love God. ==
He loved God in his own way, not God’s way. That is much like those who try to justify going their own way.
==Jesus came to tell us that God forgives us and understands who and what we are.==
Not true. He calls us, through Christ, to repentance. He doesn’t accept our unrighteous selves.
== He is not going to judge us for being naked, or being who and what we are.==
That’s true for the Righteous. It’s not true for the unrighteous.
== However, if we recoil from God because we believe what others tell us about our nature…==
God says that you have no “homosexual” nature other than what YOU make yourself to be cuz He didn’t make you “homosexual.”
==… being an ‘abomination’, then it will be WE who refuse God, not the other way around. ==
He rejects those who do iniquity. So, if you reject Him, He rejects you:
(Hos 4:6) My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
(Mar 8:38) Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
(Luk 9:26) For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father’s, and of the holy angels.
==Even the Catholic Church teaches that sin requires that you know it is wrong…==
Lack of His Knowledge is death. I don’t care what the Catholics say. They are not God.
== It is not the act, it is guilt that makes us recoil from God.==
However,
(1Co 13:4) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
(1Co 13:5) Doth not behave itself unseemly…
(Pro 23:7) For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.
So, as a man thinks in his heart, he will do.
== The message was clear, Love God with your heart and soul – not fear Him, Treat your neighbor as yourself. That is the message, not who you choose to love or have sex with.==
Except that God condemns what we now call “homosexuality” as an abomination. He is clear as to the “doing.”
==The rest is an invention of the Devil to keep us from accepting God as our Loving Father.==
His love doesn’t preclude His justice, however.
== The enemy of God is the one who calls you to hate in His name.==
God also hates iniquity. I do what My Father in Heaven shows me to do.
== The one who tells you that God does not love the person you are…==
Read: “…the person you SAY you are…the person you talked yourself into being…”
==… so you should hate yourself.==
Romans 8:1 [KJV]
==If you recoil in fear, like a puppy who is afraid of it’s [sic] master, how can you truly embrace a God who accepts you just as He made you?==
I accept God as He made me in re-creation, regeneration. Those who betray Him are still under the curse of Adam.
posted March 22, 2009 at 1:07 pm
Someone in this thread will be happy to know that I for one have no intention of sitting down with him and coming to solutions. Because to people like him, “solutions” = “compromise” = “pandering to the wicked sodomites and offending the invisible man in the sky”. It’s pointless.
posted March 22, 2009 at 1:09 pm
==We know that they truly will dissolve existing gay marriages when they can.==
No man-woman marriage will be dissolved. A man who claims to be homosexual, who has married a woman who claims to be homosexual, has nothing to fear.
==We know that they will strip children from their parents.==
A so-called “same-sex couple” cannot, by and of themselves, have children.
==We know that they will prevent two people who have committed their lives to each other from being together when one is at his or her deathbed.==
All they gotta do is draw up papers that give anyone they choose to be there.
==Some even demand that we turn away from God and worship the devil…==
You don’t need help to do that.
==…denying us even our Christianity.==
If you love Christ, you won’t disobey Him. If you, saying you obey His Commands, violate even one, you violate all.
It’s one thing to violate His Commands once, then repent and not to do it again; but, those who claim to be homosexual continually and continuously violate what He said not to do.
==I would never presume or dare to even guess at the depths of God’s love for us…==
Even though He communicated that love.
==… but it doesn’t hurt one bit to bear His definition of love as we Christians are to live it in mind.==
And would you care to define that “love,” biblically. Give us the line of scriptural thought on it cuz you give us what it does, but you don’t tell us what it “is.”
==Certainly not much of this is to be found among most of those conservative Christians we encounter here on Beliefnet.==
What would a scoffer know about it?
== The depth of their hatred even extends to telling us to abandon God and turn to the devil.==
You need no help to do that.
posted March 22, 2009 at 1:24 pm
A general question to the conservative Christians out there. Do you all agree with Mr. Incredible?
Does he speak for you?
If not, why don’t you speak up?
Certainly, gay Christians are justified in assuming the principle ‘Qui tacet, consentire videtur’ not only seems to govern but is the case.
posted March 22, 2009 at 1:51 pm
==A general question to the conservative Christians out there. Do you all agree with Mr. Incredible?==
Maybe they do, and maybe they don’t. I don’t ask for a show of hands before I announce my views.
==Does he speak for you?==
Irrelevant.
I’m not an elected official.
I haven’t run for any office.
I’m not campaigning.
Christ tells us — that is, those of us who are born again — not to be concerned about pleasing men, adhering to men’s traditions.
==If not, why don’t you speak up?==
So, ignoring the isn’t working?
==… gay Christians…==
OXYMORON ALERT! — OXYMORON ALERT! — OXYMORON ALERT!
==… are justified in assuming the principle ‘Qui tacet, consentire videtur’ not only seems to govern but is the case.==
ALERT TO THE PRESUMPTUOUS! — ALERT TO THE PRESUMPTUOUS! — ALERT TO THE PRESUMPTUOUS!
posted March 22, 2009 at 2:49 pm
==Do you all agree with Mr. Incredible?==
So, it has to be “all,” or nothing, huh?
Did “all” agree with Jesus?
DO “all” agree with Christ today?
posted March 22, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Do I agree with “Mr. Incredible”, panthera? NO…but of course, I’m not a conservative Christian.
posted March 23, 2009 at 2:18 am
Pagansister,
Bless you.
Probably the worst thing the conservative Christians have done is to drive sane people away from Christianity through their hateful, spiteful “I’m right, your wrong and I can’t wait to see you burn in hell for it” approach to all questions and issues.
posted March 23, 2009 at 2:32 pm
==Probably the worst thing the conservative Christians have done is to drive sane people away from Christianity through their hateful, spiteful “I’m right, your wrong and I can’t wait to see you burn in hell for it” approach to all questions and issues.==
Translation: “I have a convenient excuse for justifying what I wanna do: just blame Christians!”
posted March 23, 2009 at 2:40 pm
==Do I agree with “Mr. Incredible”, panthera? NO…but of course, I’m not a conservative Christian. ==
See, everybody! They never explain the point of contention, only say that there’s contention.
==Probably the worst thing the conservative Christians have done is to drive sane people away from Christianity …==
Funny that you give people like me the power to drive people away from Christianity, though I didn’t have the power to drive people to John McCain last November.
The fact is that no one has the power to MAKE people do anything. As the Libs would say, everybody has the Right to choose. That means that they have the Right to the consequences, too. We are not responsible for the choices people make. If they make bad choices, it’s THEIR fault.
If we are wrong in the lines of scriptural thoughts we make, you would present the lines of scriptural thought that show WHERE we are wrong. The reason you don’t do this is that you cannot. So, all you have left is accusations.
posted March 23, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
So, where, in the Word of God, is what we now call “homosexuality” and so-called “same-sex ‘marriage’” the Will of God and not Will of the flesh, nor the Will of men and women?
posted March 23, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Mr. I:
Why does homosexuality have to be “approved” by a book written by a group of men to push a religion? Quoting the book means nothing.
posted March 23, 2009 at 10:07 pm
==Why does homosexuality have to be “approved” by a book written by a group of men to push a religion?==
We aren’t pushing anything, not counting that Christianity is not a “religion,” rather a relationship with a loving Father through Christ. We push love.
== Quoting the book means nothing.==
If He means nothing to you, you got nothing to worry about, huh.
posted March 23, 2009 at 10:11 pm
==Why does homosexuality have to be “approved” by a book…==
God doesn’t approve of what we now call “homosexuality.” He says He detests it.
==…written by a group of men…==
Did men write The Ten Commandments on mountain stone, then carve around Them into tablets?
==… to push a religion?==
That would be what Islam does. Jesus didn’t like “religion,” as a tradition of men. I agree with Him.
posted March 23, 2009 at 10:40 pm
Christianity – especially conservative Christianity – is idolatry, pure and simple. Those who follow it jeopardize their souls (as we have seen here).There has only been one covenant in history and it wasn’t with Christians. The more they abuse people less powerful than them, the more they prove themselves powerless. A fake faith, an imaginary god and religion. It will eventually fall before the truth of HaShem.
posted March 23, 2009 at 10:50 pm
==Christianity – especially conservative Christianity – is idolatry, pure and simple.==
Pure and simple, Christianity isn’t idolatry.
==Those who follow it jeopardize their souls…==
Our souls are saved by God, through Christ.
==… (as we have seen here).==
You’re blind. So, how can you tell?
==There has only been one covenant in history and it wasn’t with Christians. ==
That’s the PR, anyway, that the Devil wants you to believe cuz he’s p i s s e d Jesus defeated his works.
==The more they abuse people…==
We merely tell the Truth as Christ tells us. You don’t have-ta believe Him.
==… less powerful than them…==
Oh, we’re more powerful than they??? Who gave us this power?
==… the more they prove themselves powerless.==
That’s what the Devil says, too.
== A fake faith…==
I’ts proved to us, and that’s all that counts.
==… an imaginary god…==
We don’t believe in “god.” We believe in God. You don’t know the difference.
==… and religion.==
We have relationship with God through Christ.
== It will eventually fall before the truth of HaShem.==
Garbage.
Are you also one of those who refers to God by using the abbreviation for taking the Lord’s Name in vain?
posted March 23, 2009 at 11:13 pm
==There has only been one covenant in history and it wasn’t with Christians.==
Sooo, YOU’re on the side of the Pharisees and Scribes. We understand.
posted March 24, 2009 at 2:24 pm
The one thing I’ve learned from the entire gay marriage debate is I want nothing to do with Christianity, ever. I would not want to be associated with such hateful, divisive, mean-spirited people, or the God that would drive them to spew such vileness toward their fellow human beings.
posted March 24, 2009 at 2:39 pm
==The one thing I’ve learned from the entire gay marriage debate is I want nothing to do with Christianity, ever.==
It’s YOUR choice. Nobody is making you.
However, have it YOUR way and tell that to God on Judgment Day, that it’s everybody else’s fault, not yours, and see where that gets you.
== I would not want to be associated with such hateful, divisive, mean-spirited people…==
You mean, like, the prople who agree with God that what we now call “homosexuality” is an “abomination”?
==… or the God that would drive them to spew such vileness toward their fellow human beings.==
That’s what you SEE as vileness cuz those who claim and who act on that claim that they are homosexual have an agenda to propagate. God stands in their way. We join Him.
posted March 24, 2009 at 8:19 pm
“Sooo, YOU’re on the side of the Pharisees and Scribes. We understand.”
Damn straight. We’re the people you idol worshipers have tried to exterminate for 2,000 years. When we survive – and flourish – and we DO FLOURISH todsay – it invalidates your claims.
You Yoshke-followers got bupkis.
posted March 25, 2009 at 11:04 am
Why do only homosexuals get tagged with the epithet “sodomites”? Many, if not most heterosexuals also participate in both anal and oral sex, sometimes even iwhtin “marriage” (yeah, I know, ‘GASP!’). Yet, despite rampant anal/oral sex withinn the heterosexual community, they’re still allowed to get “married”, the sodomites!
posted March 25, 2009 at 5:32 pm
==Why do only homosexuals get tagged with the epithet “sodomites”? ==
It comes from the situation in Sodom.
==Many, if not most heterosexuals also participate in both anal and oral sex, sometimes even iwhtin “marriage”…==
Cuz it isn’t the primary feature of heterosexuality.
==…despite rampant anal/oral sex withinn the heterosexual community, they’re still allowed to get “married”, the sodomites!==
A man who claims tgo be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual. Heterosexuality in individuals is not a requirement in marriage.
posted March 25, 2009 at 5:35 pm
==”Sooo, YOU’re on the side of the Pharisees and Scribes. We understand.”
Damn straight. We’re the people you idol worshipers…==
We don’t worshi idols. It is the Israelites who worshiped idols in the wilderness.
==… have tried to exterminate for 2,000 years.==
That’s trash, of course.
== When we survive – and flourish – and we DO FLOURISH todsay – it invalidates your claims.==
To YOU, anyway.
posted March 26, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Mr. I: There is no proof that anyone wrote anything on “tablets”, to tell the world what to do. That too is a story in a book written by human beings. Also the contention that some god doesn’t approve of homosexuality is one version of things, the other, those who are IMO true Christians, accept all of their divine being’s creations, and if some are born to love someone of the same gender, not a problem. Their divine being is a loving being, not a condemning one. So, there is more than one version of the book. Religion/faith is multifaceted, not just one interpretation is correct. You have your version, others have theirs. No superior opinion on things.
Thus there are many, many,many religions/faiths in the world. And there are those who find no need for any of them. Such is life.
posted March 27, 2009 at 1:03 pm
I see Mr. Not Credible still misreads the “Sodom” story, confusing rape with homosexuality. Sad.
“Primary feature” or not, isn’t anyone who participates in oral/anal sex (i.e. 97% of the world, apparently) committing sodomy and hence a ‘sodomite’?
“A man who claims tgo be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual .”
Apart from creating more false marriages (just what the world needs, eh?), what about those of us who actually are homosexual?
“Heterosexuality in individuals is not a requirement in marriage.”
True, since most of America allows non-procreative types to marry all the time. Not that heterosexual = procreative to begin with.
posted March 27, 2009 at 10:22 pm
==Mr. I: There is no proof that anyone wrote anything on “tablets”…==
Except that there was a witness on scene. Where is YOUR witness who was on scene to say otherwise?
==That too is a story in a book written by human beings.==
Except that it is the witness who was there who reported the story. If you have a witness who was there and who will testify that what is reported didn’t happen, please bring him forward.
== Also the contention that some god…==
Not some god, rather THE God.
==… doesn’t approve of homosexuality is one version of things…==
The Devil tries to muddy the waters, too.
==… the other, those who are IMO true Christians, accept all of their divine being’s creations…==
To them, they are their own divine being, having created themselves through choice.
==… and if some are born to love someone of the same gender, not a problem.==
Except that it IS a problem, in the eyes of God, given that He detests what we now call “homosexuality.”
If you’re creating your own rules and judging yourself, of course there’s no problem cuz the judge — yourself — is beholden to you, not the other way around.
==Their divine being is a loving being, not a condemning one.==
That’s what I said, that THEY are their own divine being and judge, beholden to themselves.
==So, there is more than one version of the book.==
The long series of revisions of the Word of God began with the first revision given by the Devil to Eve.
==Religion/faith is multifaceted…==
Christianity is not a religion. It is a relationship.
Jesus said that had he is the ONLY Way to the Father. So, there is no other way.
==… not just one interpretation is correct.==
The Word of God is of no private interpretation. All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God — that is, by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be telling you one thing, and telling us another. Our version conforms to and aligns with the Word of God.
== You have your version, others have theirs.==
Except that our version conforms to and aligns with the Word of God.
== No superior opinion on things. ==
Except that the Superior Opinion of the matter comes from God, and we align with Him.
==Thus there are many, many,many religions/faiths in the world.==
And only one relationship — that is, Christianity.
== And there are those who find no need for any of them.==
Jesus told us to stay away from the traditions of men — that is, religion.
==I see Mr. Not Credible still misreads the “Sodom” story…==
No, I don’t.
I’m glad to say that I don’t align myself with The Homosexual. Revised, Reversed Translation Version of the Word of God.
==”Primary feature” or not, isn’t anyone who participates in oral/anal sex (i.e. 97% of the world, apparently) committing sodomy and hence a ‘sodomite’?==
No, cuz the main mutha goin’ on in Sodom was homosexuality, especially as it pertains to the situation at Lot’s house with his angelic guests.
==”A man who claims tgo be homosexual may marry a woman who claims to be homosexual .”
Apart from creating more false marriages (just what the world needs, eh?), what about those of us who actually are homosexual?==
That’s what I said: Those who claim to be homosexual…
==”Heterosexuality in individuals is not a requirement in marriage.”
True…==
So, then, where’s the sexual discrimination in the definition of “marriage” as being the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, in view of the fact that those who claim to be homosexual are either man, or women?
==… since most of America allows non-procreative types to marry all the time. Not that heterosexual = procreative to begin with.==
Irrelevant.
God’s template — WHAT, not who — is the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, for the production of Godly children. This arrangement simulates the “marriage” of Christ to His Church. The Church is supposed to be producing Godly children, too.
However, not all marriages are Godly. God does not support all marriages. He is behind all Godly marriages, and, since that’s the template, it’s not practical to expect that ALL marriages will produce children, given the damage that sin has done and continues to do to the world.
posted March 27, 2009 at 10:23 pm
either man, or women—-> men, or women
posted March 27, 2009 at 11:48 pm
(Joh 1:12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(Joh 1:13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Is homosexuality of the Will of the flesh, or of the Will of men, or of God? If of God, why no mention of it in the Word of God, except in condemnation?
posted March 28, 2009 at 10:26 pm
And what is the name of the witness of the great tablet writing, “I”? If it is supposed to be in the book, not good enough. There is no witness because the book is unreliable, to say the least. (Ever hear of police getting the same story out of “witnesses” who claim they saw the “perp”?) Humans are not reliable witnesses.
Word of mouth 50 plus years later isn’t reliable as witness to anything, and add to that a couple of thousand years of dudes coping the texts….sorry not reliable and many times totally contradictory.
As is obvious, “I” I don’t believe in THE God. I respect your belief, I just totally disagree with it and find it hard to believe in fairy tales.
Like I mentioned above, there are in this wide wonderful world, many, many, many wonderful beliefs, gods and goddesses and religions, thus making yours no more special than anyone elses.
As to homosexual marriages….yours is one opinion and fortunately not the only one. Equality will come to all in this country, as it did to the Blacks (finally). Many Christians disagree with you on the subject and they are just as sure of your god as you are. They just know he/she is a god of love, not a god to fear.
Christianity may be a relationship, but it certainly has many branches of the relationship….RCC, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, UCC, Baptist (Northern and Southern), Lutheran, etc. Christians can’t even agree on much, huh? It’s one of many “religions”.
Have a good one, “I”.
Blessed Be
posted April 1, 2009 at 6:11 am
==And what is the name of the witness of the great tablet writing, “I”?==
You don’t know?? It’s Moses.
== If it is supposed to be in the book, not good enough.==
Tuff.
== There is no witness because the book is unreliable, to say the least.==
Except that Moses was there when The Ten Commandments were given. You don’t have to believe it. That doesn’t make it untrue.
== (Ever hear of police getting the same story out of “witnesses” who claim they saw the “perp”?) Humans are not reliable witnesses.==
Except Moses is.
==Word of mouth 50 plus years later isn’t reliable as witness to anything, and add to that a couple of thousand years of dudes coping the texts….sorry not reliable and many times totally contradictory.==
The King James Version [Textus Receptus] is accurate in the upper 90 percentiles with over 5600 manuscripts. The Hebrew is even more accurate.
==As is obvious, “I” I don’t believe in THE God. ==
He knows, and He has marked it down, for future reference.
== I respect your belief, I just totally disagree with it and find it hard to believe in fairy tales. ==
You have to tell yourself that it’s a fairy tale so that you can feel justified in not believing it. Very convenient.
==… there are in this wide wonderful world, many, many, many wonderful beliefs, gods and goddesses and religions, thus making yours no more special than anyone elses. ==
So, Jesus is a “liar”?
==As to homosexual marriages….yours is one opinion and fortunately not the only one.==
In California, I would be in the majority.
Elsewhere, I’m also in the majority.
== Equality will come to all in this country, as it did to the Blacks (finally).==
Those who claim to be homosexual already have the “Right” to marry:
A man who claims to be homosexual may marry a woman who claim to be homosexual. All those who claim to be homosexual are either men, or women, and the law defines “marriage” as a union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. So, unless those who claim to be homosexual are members of a third sex, everyone is included.
== Many Christians disagree with you on the subject…==
They are Liberals who are quite relaxed about the Word of God.
==… and they are just as sure of your god as you are.==
Yes, they think He said something He didn’t say and/or that He didn’t say something that He said.
== They just know he/she is a god of love, not a god to fear.==
God loves all, but He says that that love will not preclude His Justice any more than a parent’s love stays his hand.
Biblical “fear” is not what you, a worlding, think it means. In the Word of God, it means, “respect.”
==Christianity may be a relationship, but it certainly has many branches of the relationship….RCC, Episcopal, Methodist, Presbyterian, UCC, Baptist (Northern and Southern), Lutheran, etc.==
I don’t care about denominations.
== Christians can’t even agree on much, huh?==
The Devil likes it that way. He is the father of confusion, and too many Christians have given him authority to confuse them.
== It’s one of many “religions”.==
Christianity is the only what you call “religion” that has a Savior, one who died for your sins. The only thing lacking is you’re receiving it. That’s because you don’t have access to it, unless you are born again.
posted April 1, 2009 at 6:23 am
==Word of mouth 50 plus years later isn’t reliable as witness to anything, and add to that a couple of thousand years of dudes coping the texts….sorry not reliable and many times totally contradictory. ==
However, such a simple witness testimony wouldn’t be subject to misinterpretation:
I went up to the mountain. God came and wrote His Commandments in the stone. He cut the stone out. I carried the Tablets down to the People.
Nobody could get that wrong. It is so important that they WOULDN’T get it wrong.
posted April 2, 2009 at 10:41 am
“I went up to the mountain.”
Maybe you should have stayed there. ;{O)
posted April 4, 2009 at 10:14 pm
Being born the first time was sufficient, thank you “I”.
BTW. Iowa now allows same gender marriage, and VT is on the verge. 3 (4′) states down 47(46?) more to go. It will happen and that divine being will be smiling that his/her “creations” finally got it right….allowing ALL of the human beings to be able to declare their love openly and legally …and enjoy all the benifits that the government allow heterosexual couples to enjoy.
Moses was there to witness god’s writing the 10 rules/commandments. Right. It’s so important that no one could get it wrong. Right.
Important things are ALWAYS reported correctly, always. Right.
Enjoy the story, “I”. It makes you happy.