Ah, er, no.
Forgiveness requires both an acknowledgement of having wronged another
and
Forgiveness requires that I and the party wronged.
First, he has to admit to having wronged me.
Then we shall see about forgiveness.
On the other hand, I might just choose to believe what all the hateful, spite filled conservative Christians around here are always cherry-picking from the Bible…and righteously judge him.
This man is doing nothing more than hanging his sails in that wind which will bring him the most money and power. He sees that the times are changing and, now that the christianists are out of power in the government, is bending over backwards to keep the money rolling in.
Between the torture memoes being released every day and the extent to which the fundamentalist (evenglical, conservative, biblical innerantist…et cetra, ad nauseum) Christians tried to dismember the US Constitution under shrub, my patience is exhausted.
We need to seize this opportunity and fight for our rights. People like Warren are the scum of the earth. A rat abandoning a sinking ship.

For giveness is a two way street!! you can do all the good in the world but you can’t bye your stairway to heaven!! yes I am an angery person! by him useing his political do gooding and promoting hate is wrong because not all see or read the same!!! So even though we live togeather we don’t all practice the same! people are killed for lease!! No one person is perfect yet I never told him he could not worship how he chooses! thank you kim

Regardless of forgiveness or who said what and what context was taken where because this then this or that then that, One is either about G-d’s business or they are not. Period. The Emergent People, The Conservative People, Liberal, whatever, if one says they are a Christian then by all means be one. The time is over for differences that divide, the time is over that my way is better then your way. You’re either for Him or you are not.
It makes me sad for RW’s congregation because there are many that are probably dismayed right now and not sure what to think.

Times are changing!!! All need be accoutable for all they do and say
to promote any hate is wrong and none can say in the name of GOD thier not! I an American an I won’t be put in a closet to please some judgemental jerk! kim

“Having not learned my lesson,…”
Yikes! You have already seen how trustworthy he is!
You defense raises good points but I just wonder how RW will blame you when it becomes convenient for you.

edit…”for you” should be “for him”
mea culpa

Joey,
So, are you saying that as long as someone is religiously just a conservative and fundamentalist in his views as you are, then it doesn’t matter what they say or do…’cause God only hates gays and transgendered.?

Rick Warren is not only dishonest, he is misinformed. He refers to the one-man, one-woman model as a “5,000 year old definition of marriage.” The fact is, for most of those 5,000 years, the predominant form of marriage was polygyny (one man, more than one wife). Monogamy is relatively newer to the scene. Also, I distrusted Warren when he claimed to have gay friends and have visited in “gay homes.” I distrust him now when he says he is working with gay organizations on other issues. I want to know who these friends are, and which organizations he’s working with.

‘My best friends are Jews…”
‘Why, we treat our slaves almost like they were white!’
It’s just the same old, same old…and, sadly, the same people fall for it every time.
Sheesh.

It is so amazing to me that all these people don’t realize that everything they say is on record and can be put out there in seconds. I hope they never realize this. To bad their followers don’t pay any attention.

I’ll be happy to forgive Mr. Warren as soon as he stops actively hurting people with his church policies and dehumanizing rhetoric.
Also as soon as he stops lying. You say above that Mr. Warren didn’t say that he didn’t endorse Prop 8 in the King interview, but he did exactly that. He even used the word ‘endorsement’!

During the whole Proposition 8 thing, I never once went to a meeting, never once issued a statement, never — never once even gave an endorsement in the two years Prop 8 was going.

Further, in the October 23, 2008 video that went directly to 22,000 people, he endorsed the Proposition and encouraged them to pass it on to their friends. If that isn’t campaigning, I don’t know what is.
Mr. Warren told people in the October 2008 video that IF they believe in the Bible, they’ll support Prop 8. This is entirely consistent with his email of October 2004, in which he listed gay marriage as his #3 non-negotiable, non-debatable issue.
He only got inconsistent when people started paying attention to the ugly things he was saying and called him on it. Now it’s suddenly “very low” priority.
But what do I know. I’m just an “anonymous” blogger (who always uses his real name) trying to make trouble (holding people accountable for their disgusting, hurtful, hateful statements).

Steve
You give Rick Warren way too much credit for his work in Africa. He has funded and lobbied on behalf of homophobic evangelical preachers in Uganda, who have launched campaigns denouncing use of condoms (actually burning them), and undermining Uganda’s successful anti-HIV/AIDs campaign, previously based on an ABC (Abstinence, Being faithful, using Condoms) to an “abstinence-only” approach. Uganda’s HIV infection rates are rising again, and peope are needlessly dieing.
On top of that — Uganda’s LGBT activists are being hounded by the government, at the behest of the evangelicals (who count the First Lady of Uganda in their number).
To be forgiven, to be redeemed, one needs first to acknowledge the wrong that was done, and take action to make amends. Rick Warren hasn’t done that and shows know sign of doing so. He is a sorry, bigoted, little man, and deserves only our scorn

You are way too nice to Mr. Warren.

Panthera,
I’m saying that if someone is going to claim to the name of Jesus then they need to start being about G-d’s agenda. Not their own. Truth is still Truth and what was true from the beginning is still true today and will be true tomorrow and until the end. Not trying to split hairs here just merely stating my view based on what I believe from the Book that brings life. That’s all.
I didn’t say anything about gay or transgendered, me hating them or G-d hating them. However, I’m sure I don’t need to state what the Bible says regarding the topic because I’m sure it’s been battled out before.
I said that it’s time for Christians to get about G-d’s business and not their own. If that is wrong then I’m not sure what to tell you or anyone else. Again, not trying to split hairs.
Rick Warren flip-flopping while being in the position he is in has hurt the body more than he knows. Is one not allowed to have boundaries against a lifesytle they do not agree with because G-d doesn’t like it without having all the “then you hate those people” mantra thrown at them do they?
Anyway, again, I wasn’t trying to split hairs I was just stating that people need to start being what they say they are and quit flip-flopping. I didn’t realize that would mean that a Conservative or Fundamentalist could do or say what they pleased and when they wanted. That is not the case because we will all be accountable.

As an atheist and fellow blogger, I’m sorry for the way Warren made you to blame for talking out of both sides of his mouth.
While I disagree with your belief in a supernatural being, I get ticked off when people denigrate bloggers, as Warren did in his pathetic attempt to cover his rear end.
Carry on, Mr. Waldman!

Nobody’s under any obligation to forgive Pastor Warren for anything he hasn’t asked to be forgiven for. Instead of saying sorry for what he really _did_ say, he tried to blame Steven for distorting words he clearly did not distort. It’s clear that Warren is trying to have his cake and eat it too: he still wants progressives to see him as “not one of _those_ kind” of evangelicals, so he tells Larry King that he’s definitely down with the gays, etc. On the other hand, he can’t outright disavow his statement that homosexuality is a perversion like incest or polygamy because that’s what a lot of his followers and fans really do believe.
Warren also continues to avoid — while denying that his does — open invitations from both Soulforce and Andrew Sullivan to debate Christianity and homosexuality. Either own your homophobia, or kindly STFU.

I cannot believe how much Americans talk. I wish everyone would just shut up and let their actions speak for themselves. If you love people, prove it. Feed a hungry person, spend time with the weak and dying, protect innocent children from abuse. This is not rocket science. The word Christian means, “follower of Christ” or more literally, “little Christ.” Likewise the word disciple means, “learner” (in the sense that learners tried to emulate and imitate their teachers). So can those of us that believe in the risen God have a little less chatter and a lot more action, please? Thanks.

I really fail to see what the difference is between “endorsing” proposition 8 and “campaigning” for it. I mean, I’ll grant the subtle difference, but I think to try to use that as an excuse for Pastor Rick’s statements is a bit…silly. The difference is so semantically nuanced as to be virtually negligible.
When you’re a prominent figure, whether religious or political, a statement of support or opposition is significant and matters. Furthermore, the video in which Pastor Rick endorses Proposition 8 also includes an injunction towards his flock to support Proposition 8, and I quote him directly, “if you believe what the Bible says about marriage.”
That’s campaign rhetoric — it is the kind of language you use when you want to impact a political outcome at the ballot box. To explain it away as merely an “endorsement” and not “campaigning” is so much semantic you-know-what.

jt, thank you. It’s great that Warren is doing some good work–he’s chosen a pastor’s life, he ought to be–but that’s got nothing to do with his weaseliness in his words here.
And “Your name”–guess what, you’re TALKING.

Madison:
You’re right about splitting hairs, but remember: that’s what Rick Warren does best. In magnifying a difference between “endorsing” and “campaigning,” Warren plays on the ignorance of the populace.
Steve W.: I wish I could agree with your last statement of forgiveness, but I can’t in all conscience give the man any more rope than to hang himself with.
Two very important issues here:
1. It’s personal: while I was privileged to volunteer for the AIDS Emergency Fund in San Francisco, I witnessed first hand the results of the Christian Right’s rhetoric. People were cast out of their homes (mostly from Southern Baptist states)WHILE THEY WERE SICK AND DYING! Warren and his ilk have never voice one tiny mea culpa (The Southern Baptist Convention does sponsor AIDS relief programs – but only in Africa)
2. Warren’s work in Africa is a bit disingenuous: he’s there to convert nations more than minister to the sick. If you study his relationships with the presidents of Rwanda and Uganda you will notice that he has not once chastised them for criminalizing homosexuality. And Warren now has enough influence to change policy! In fact, Uganda (which sentences people having gay sex to life imprisonment, is on the brink of making just BEING gay illegal). Also, his largesse in Africa comes with a condition: no needle exchange programs, no condom distribution – prevention programs are to preach “abstinence only.” And his kind of “prevention programs” have met with either limited success or INCREASE in the number of AIDS cases and deaths.He has declared Rwanda and Uganda “Purpose Driven Nations” (to their presidents’ delight).
There are over 30 countries in Africa where homosexuality is illegal.
We only have to wonder which country Warren will focus on next.
BTW: Kay Warren’s liason for all AIDS programs is Elizabeth Styffe. Ask her for names and locales of Saddleback’s southern California AIDS agencies and which ones she thinks are ministering to gays. I hope you get a satisfactory answer. But don’t bet on it.

Warren continues to spread a Roy Moore / Bork / Barton-like revisionist history about our founding and our Constitution. One does not find all our rights in the Constitution as Warren states; see the 9th Amendment which explicitly notes that our rights are not all numerated. Warren fails the very test that concerned Madison when originally crafting a Constitution with no bill of rights, where Madison rightly worried that writing our rights down would limit our rights to those noted, the very reason the 9th amendment was incorporated into the Bill of Rights. In Warren’s world we have no right to travel since it’s not in the Constitution.
In addition, the Constitution does not grant rights by way of listing them. We don’t have the right to free speech because of the 1st amendment, its merely explicitly confirmed therein; instead we as free individuals delegated limited numerated powers to government while noting some rights. In fact we reserved all our rights with the exception of those rights which are either regulated or prohibited to protect the superior rights of others (including some prohibitions on speech) or prohibited due to the delegation of powers via the Constitution (their power to tax us being one example).
Furthermore, at a minimum, the equal protection clause in the Constitution clearly makes it unconstitutional to deny gay people their right to marry. So even using Warren’s premise, his position fails. The government has a constitutional obligation to defend gays’ rights to marry given these are explicitly stated in he Constitution and given that the government protects marriage rights for heterosexuals – making Warren doubly wrong.
The Iowa ruling was entirely consistent with these principes, as it should be. These principles are also consistent with both the original meaning and intent of the Constitution – where the framers realized our Union needed to perfect itself over time given laws of that time clearly did not meet the ideals and principles noted in the Constitution.
There are also many other false assertions by Warren regarding gay marriage that he either ignorantly or dishonestly uses to buttress his argument. However, this post is long enough.

Rick Warren’s words are his own. He did not ask forgiveness, so none should be granted.
Instead of forgiving Rick Warren, I would like to give a huge thank you Steven for being the catalyst for exposing the truth.
RW and folks like him deserve no respect. He is nothing more than a very astute politician who now can see that being an outrageous bigot will not help keep him in the good graces of the body politic nor flush with cash. He is smart and sly. Unfortunately for RW, this is the You Tube era, and all lies will be told again in endless video loops.
You reap what you sow. RW has seen nothing yet.

Granting forgiveness is an act of grace unto ourselves and not necessarily conditional on whether the forgiven asked for it. I’m willing to forgive Warren for his past misdeeds.
Now, that said, I am not at all obligated to tolerate misdeeds going forward, since by now he surely has been informed of the harm he is causing, so shall he not repent, well, so be it, he’s outta my line of sight and shall be as inconsequential as a flea.

Steve,
Thank you for providing a ‘reprint’ of your exchange with Pastor Warren. It clears up some of my concerns about his sincerity in his stated opinions about gay marriage. I can’t condemn the man, but I am disappointed with his statements in the ‘reprint’ and his statement on Larry King’s show.
Some years back, after hearing about the deaths of strong hearted and well known christian leaders, I became tearful as I wondered, ‘who’s going to replace them?’. It seemed that few leaders remained who would stand for righteousness even if they would lose popularity or would be ridiculed. After thinking a bit more about it I was reminded that God always has strong people representing righteousness, even when it seems that the more popular leaders are weakening or bending to the pressure of the world. Let’s pray for Pastor Warren, that the Lord will strengthen him to stand for Christ, see the world with the eyes of Christ, and avoid getting caught up in the trap of worldly popularity.

@ Dan
I’m curious about refusing to distribute condoms, is any form of birth control sinful in the eyes of Southern Baptists like it is for Catholics? Can married couples use birth control?
If married couples can use birth control, then why the ban on condoms? It doesn’t make sense to me.

Regardless of Warren’s position, I bet you didn’t intend for your article comes across as so self serving.

He’s apologized to his “gay friends” in private. Yeah sure. Just like Sarah Palin has gay friends. Why is it that everyone who publicly denounces gays claims to have these alleged gay friends but can’t name any? Won’t name any? Can’t get one of them to publicly defend them?
The reason he “apologized in private” is because he never apologized to anyone. He has no regrets over what he said, as it is clear that he is not principled on the matter and will only say whatever he needs to say to keep his profile elevated the way Obama elevated it.
I happen to disagree vehemently with his prior stated views about gays. But I do not celebrate such a calculated, self-serving “conversion” to the other side. I don’t need any friends who would throw me under the bus when the wind starts blowing the other direction again.

And what does “forgiveness” mean?
Does it mean that Warren’s words — and his subsequent squirming under the spotlight — don’t really matter? Why not? Because they’re HIS words, or because they don’t actually mean anything?
Does “forgiveness” mean that a public figure may say anything — and risk nothing?
Or does “forgiveness” mean that those who teach that everyone is a wretched sinner deserving of eternal torture may not be held to account — because they’re “Reverend”?
Expletive that, on this weekend and every other day in the calendar.

Joey,
How pleasant for you to answer. Let’s agree on two biblical translations first, and then we can discuss what is and what is not God’s eternal word.
I suggest the Latin (Vulgate is fine)or, if your Latin is a bit rusty (mine is, sadly, but still serviceable), how about the first Luther in German?
How about you?
You get to suggest one translation, I get one.
It will be very interesting indeed to see your analysis of some of the ‘passages’ condemning homosexuality…
So – I’ll leave it at my two choices and let you chose either. You, of course get to pick yours…

“If married couples can use birth control, then why the ban on condoms? It doesn’t make sense to me.”
If condoms were freely/easily available, there would be no punishment for sinful sex. Sex should ONLY lead to pregnancy (hetero and within marriage) or disease and death (homo and/or outside of marriage).
“I’m saying that if someone is going to claim to the name of Jesus then they need to start being about G-d’s agenda. Not their own. Truth is still Truth and what was true from the beginning is still true today and will be true tomorrow and until the end. Not trying to split hairs here just merely stating my view based on what I believe from the Book that brings life.”
You have every right to believe anything you want; you have absolutely NO right to force all Americans to live according to your view of Christianity (or any other religion, FWIW). So, while theological discussions are interesting and can potentially be enlightening, they have NO place in political policy discussions. If you can’t argue for your position without invoking theology, then you should take that as a sign that you have a weak (public policy) argument.
Also, “the Book that brings life”? Seriously? So, there was no LIFE before the “Book” was written? Seriously?

I’m one of those gay “friends”. Let me assure you that I am not friends with these type people. Their definition of “friend” is not the same as mine. Anyone who voted for George Bush, or who supports the Pope, or Rick Warren and their ilk is decidedly not my friend. Acquaintance, maybe. Friend? No way. Friends don’t deprive friends of civil rights, at the very least. Please. I’m so over it with this “Christian love” crap.

Buddhism does no such thing. Buddhism does not define marriage in any such way, it merely warns against sexual misconduct and the possiblity of causing harm to others in sexual relationships. It prohibits rape, sexual harrassment, pedophilia and cheating on a partner; anything that would cause pain or harm to others. It does not say anything about sexual orientation.

When will Heterosexuals realize that while Gays & Lesbians DO love them, we hate THEIR sin…
Their sin of violence, murder, degradation, humiliation, and the HUNDREDS of other attrocities that they commit against Gay & Lesbian people ON A DAILY basis seems FAR worse than MY ‘sin’ of LOVE for a person with matching genitals.
Your hypocrisy is PALPABLE across this nation.
And I know that God agrees.

Chris,
You have to understand. I know it is hard, but please listen to my words and open your heart.
We must accept all of God’s creation. Yes, even male heterosexuals are part of God’s plan.
Someday, perhaps, medical science will offer us the cure for male pattern heterosexuality. Failing that, we should consider lifting our restrictions on abortion for those unhappy couples who discover that the unborn life growing in the (married) woman’s body is going to grow up to be a Republican voting, Bible-thumping, woman-beating, beer-guzzling, ultra-nationalist heterosexual with bad taste and a preference for polyester.
But until that happy day, yes, I quite agree. We must love them.

Chris, great comment!

When Steven Waldman originally posted this, his closing remarks in defense of Rick Warren included a false characterization of Warren’s statements on Larry King, and a gentle criticism of the bloggers that had identified his King interview as another example of his inability to tell the truth. See the comment below by Matt Algren for the details.
Late last night, I emailed Mr. Waldman, and told him that unless he corrected his post, its’ entire premise would be undermined. Apparently, either Mr. Algren’s comment or my email convinced Mr. Waldman to make the necessary correction. Unfortunately, he did it in a most cowardly fashion. He edited his post, but he did not include a correction in the body of the post or in the comments. He just deleted the untruthful statements, pretending that they were never there.
This is hardly the way to address errors, especially in a post that is critical of another for the way in which they fail to acknowledge their own mistakes.

Just Steve,
He corrected it – I saw the correction. Now, we have on this site bloggers who actually permit white supremacists to vomit their hatred all over the place and you are upset because Waldman didn’t put up an extra box with broadway lighting saying: “Mea Culpa, thank God for Steven showing me the path back to righteousness?”
There is being right, then their is being self-righteous.
Waldman made it right, you are self-righteous.

Chris I am heterosexual and haven’t done any of those things to any homosexual in my whole life. If someone made general statements like that about homosexuals you would be up in arms. So, your comments was not good because it’s prejudiced against all heterosexuals, who are NOT all the same which you imply.

Megumi Kayou,
I think you did not understand what Chris was saying.
Many people here on beliefnet tell us every day that all homosexuals are sinners, perverts, pedophiles. They say our marriages are not real.
They tell us, we are not true Christians.
They say it is God’s will that people attack us and hurt us.
One of the most common lies these very bad Christians say is: “We can beat you up and make your life painful because God said to hate the sin and love the sinner. The only way you will learn to stop sinning is when we hurt you.”
Chris just put their words in his text to show how wrong it is to say those hurtful things.

I’m really glad to have read this. I’m a atheist – not the militant kind, just the “no, thank you” kind. Unfortunately this means that my view of people of faith is often skewed. People like Rick Warren make headlines when they denigrate gay people – I’m one of those, too. I needed this reminder that not everybody uses their faith as a club.

Rick Warren is a coward. And the only thing being done in the spirit of Easter is his hopping from one false statement to another.

It just irks me when people make general staements like that. If you’re not referring to all please make that clear. Arigatou gozaimasu. Also, yes there are Christians with gay freinds out there. really! Heh. My brother is gay and my closest male friend from college is also gay. My Bible study partner is a lesbian, so not all Christians hate homosexuals or believe God hates them. Considering that He sent his only begotten son to die for them, to think that He hates them is utterly ridiculous to me.
As for gay marriage, I see that more as a legal issue and I believe that they should have the legal right to marry. And before anyone claims this will undermine marriage…it’s already been undermined with the high divorce rate. Personally I think it’s so high because in order to be a trully good spouse you must be respectful and unselfish. People are just so selfish these days and don’t respect other people’s feelings and sensibilities.
I apologize in advance is my English and spelling are not that good.
Ja ne.

Rick Warren may deserve “great credit for his extraordinary work in fighting poverty and disease in Africa.”
But he also deserves much criticism for his work on opposing the civil rights of LGBT people.
I suppose we can’t separate them. On one hand, he’s praiseworthy, on the other hand, he’s blameworthy.
We can ask him to be entirely praiseworthy and support civil rights for all.
I suspect we wouldn’t be having this conversation about him if he were a charitable racist or anti-Semite. It’ wouldn’t help. “Sure, he’s doing something good,” we’d say, “but look at the rest.”
We need to look at the rest. There is no excuse for discriminating against gay people. To say that ones religion requires it is abhorrent.
Reverend Warren is backtracking from saying abhorrent things. He hasn’t gone far enough yet. All the charity in the world isn’t going to change things.

Just who is discriminating against gay people when it comes to marriage? If anyone applies for a marriage license, they have to meet the qualifications set forth by the state in which they apply.
You can not marry your brother or sister, or other close relative. You can not marry one who is already married, you must be of a certain age to marry. And up until recent court rulings, you can not marry a person of the same sex.
So what gay people really want is to change the rules. It is not discrimination when it is against the rules.
If that is the case a 20 year old is discriminated against because he/she can not be president of the US.
Another point that gay people make concerning the right to marry is the phrase how much they are in love. When a person applies for a marriage license, the clerk does not ask for proof of love or give a test to determine the level of love. That question is not part of being married.

‘Your Name’,
Perhaps you have not yet had the opportunity to read the Iowa State Supreme Court Decision. I have included a link to the document here. Like all Supreme Court decisions, it is rather long – 69 pages – but not that hard to read.
Please read the decision and then see if you don’t think your first statement, that gays are not being discriminated against is wrong.
You probably won’t, conservative Christians in America seem to only care what courts have to say when they make decisions the conservative Christians like. But, hey – do at least try, ok?
As for your second statement, well, I am married. I live in a country which lets gays marry, with all the rights and all the responsibilities of straight marriage.
Nobody at the registrar’s office asked me about ‘love’. I certainly didn’t say, “I want a marriage license because I love my boyfriend of 20 years…”
Now, the pastor of the Church where we were married did want to know about love. Like all couples, straight or gay, we had to meet with him over several weeks for him to feel that we really were ready for a monogamous, committed, loving and faithful marriage. We were, he married us.
Your argument sounds more like something you were told by people who aren’t very well informed. Try reading the court’s ruling first(you might want to read the US Constitution and Amendments, esp. #1 and #14 while you are at it).
Then let’s talk again.

“Your Name”,
One of the underlying concepts of our system is that laws have to be fair and rational.
In other words, you couldn’t make a law saying that left-handed people couldn’t marry. There’s no rational basis for that. It serves no public good.
The main problem with your argument is that you’re not advocating for sibling marriage or plural marriage, or any of that. You and I would probably be in agreement that stopping people from taking a second spouse actually furthers the public interest. I suspect the number of siblings who would marry if permitted is only slightly above zero; nevertheless, forbidding them also furthers public interest.
You name three cases, two of which actually involve illegal sex. How are you any different from Reverend Warren? Why is there this compulsion to compare homosexuality to sexual acts where the evidence is solid that they cause harm?
Over the fifty years, there’s been plenty of evidence that homosexuality is neither a cause nor sign of emotional harm. The same cannot be said of incest or sex with children; these damage people. It’s an invalid comparison, though certainly many people who comment on Beliefnet share Warren’s enthusiasm for making it (and are less likely to retract it).
You’re right that the clerk doesn’t have to ask the couple if they love each other. It’s not relevant to whether or not they are fit for marriage. There’s no question if children are being planned for. It’s not relevant.
This issue at hand is two people who wish to become each other’s closest kin. Ones spouse, though not related by blood, is considered closer than ones parents, siblings, or children. Since this is a government act, the government must have a rational reason for insisting the couple be of the opposite sex.
Opponents to same-sex marriage, Reverend Warren included, don’t actually come up with these reasons. They make claims based on their religion, ignoring that other religions (like mine) may view things differently.
Your comments do show one thing. Steve Waldman needn’t blame himself for Warren’s comments. Rick Warren’s comments are not Steve Waldman’s fault.
Comment comparing same-sex couples to bigamy, incest, or child rape just seem to come naturally from the mouths of the opponents of same-sex marriage. Thanks for helping take Steve off the hook.

Mr Waldman,
I’m shocked at your lack of professionalism. You have changed your article without any acknowledgement of that change – when that change significantly changes the premise of your article (i.e. it wasn’t a just a typo). I read this article shortly after it was first posted you defended Mr. Warren by including some comments from him that he had not “given an endorsement” of Prop 8. You defended his statements and said Mr. Warren was correct. Further, you chastised people for saying Mr. Warren was a supporter of Prop 8.
As clearly pointed out in this article – http://blog.mattalgren.com/2009/04/rick-warren-lies-again/ (referred to by Mr. Algren in a comment previously) Mr. Warren is lying yet again.
Mr. Waldman, rather than editing this post to remove your comments, how about a new post explaining how you have seen the light and you realize that Mr. Warren has a problem with the truth and, as Christians, we should pray for him and forgive him for his sins.

“So what gay people really want is to change the rules. It is not discrimination when it is against the rules.”
So it wasn’t discrimination when the Lovings were told by Virginia that they could not apply for a license to be married there, nor live there as a married couple, because their relationship was against the rules?

I think the ony people who should post anything about “what gay people want” should be actual gay people, not delusional, paranoid, betterosexual ‘religosos’.

To start I would like to say for every sin there is a consequence thats why AIDS in America is a Gay disease(MSM). Its unateral and not what God intended for us When he created Eve in the Garden of Eaden. And further more God will deal with this sin.
I hate the fact that Rick Warren is being persecuted like this. I may not agree with everything he preaches or his style but he is just a man and he will make mistakes. One thing I know is he loves God and needs prayer! I just pray he remembers what Jesus preached in Matthew 6:24
No one can serve two masters; for either he will either hate the one or love the other,or he will be devoted to one and dispise the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon.
Rick needs to serve God and stop back paddeling for his beliefs. Grace and Peace Darcey

I would like to add that we are all human beings and we should treat each other with dignity and respect; regardless of our differences about gay marriages. If Rick Warren doesn’t support gay unions or marriages he needs to stand up for his beliefs and not feel like its politically incorrect. I don’t support gay marriages at all and i am tired of being made to feel bad about this decision or that its politically incorrect. I also think that Aids is a cause and affect disease and i really hate when people say that Aids is a gay issue when its clear that so many people that are heterosexual have this affliction. God loves us all; he may not always love the things we do but its so unfair to label him as the reason why the gay community is suffering from aids. seems more to me like something man would do.

There is a lot that irks me about the gay marriage debate. Not from the pro side, but from the anti-gay side. Well there is one from the pro-side – lots of money going into it, but the organisations not using it properly, but i digress.
With the anti-gay side, Particularly those who are themselves married, If they’re so adamant that a loving, committed, monogamous couple, for life, should not be getting married, because of one “flaw”, What the hell are they doing being married?

Well, Mr. Waldman, I’m glad to read you’ve noticed the political nature of evangelism, even if so far it seems to be a shallow recognition largely confined to a continued, albeit increasingly apologetic, “defence of Rick Warren”.
There are several problems with your assertion that “he deserves to [sic] great credit for his extraordinary work in fighting poverty and disease in Africa”, that “This man is saving thousands of lives”, and especially that we “we should keep looking at the full Rick Warren.” I would argue that many of us already are. He fights poverty and AIDS in Africa because his bigotry prevents him from working as strenuously within his native country. His primary goal appears to be first cultural disintegration, then religious conversion, with food and medicine as powerful psychological incentives. There’s greater political capital to be gained by “helping” Africans than, say, more local populations in the U.S. in equally desperate need, where Warren’s proselytizing efforts would be stymied.
There are numerous arguments (religious, economic, political, and cultural) about this kind of interventionist, evangelical approach to charitable giving. Please familiarize yourself with them before trying to defend Rick Warren’s public image again. It sounds too much like you’re talking about a corporation when their crimes begin to be exposed: “Well, they’ve done so much charity work though!” This is not an excuse.

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