The more hypocritical one is about their Christian faith is a strong indicator that they would support torture.

I agree that the real question is “why hasn’t Christianity led to the opposite result, a revulsion against torture?”
I feel Jesus changed our world with a pure and simple message: Love. Just love each other, and love the Lord.
Doesn’t it logically follow that Christians who support torture are not supporting Jesus? I think some people could view this as hypocrisy, and research shows that increasing numbers of people are leaving Christianity and other major religions because they view religious people as hypocrites:
http://www.examiner.com/x-7312-Miami-Interfaith-Spirituality-Examiner~y2009m4d28-People-leaving-childhood-religion-blame-hypocrisy-judgmental-behaviors
Thank you for raising this important topic, which I find pretty unnerving. We talk about keeping Christ in Christmas, but I sometimes wonder how we’re doing at keeping Christ in Christianity?

Jesus protect me from your followers

Your post should be titled “Why Some Christians Support Torture.” Don’t include me in the right-wing freak show.

Gee, who would Jesus torture?
As a ordained clergyman, I find simply amazing for I have to wonder where they ever picked up the idea that torture was a good “custom,” especially when they worship Jesus Christ who was tortured to death by the empire of his day.
But why should this surprise us? Wasn’t it “good church members” who sent out armies in the crusades to slaughter millions, tortured people during the inquisition, and burned people as witches, etc. etc. Isn’t it some “good Christian folks” today who would persecute and kill gay, lesbian, bi, and transgender people? The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
Any so-called Christian who embraces and encourages the use of torture to any degree has renounced his/her claim to be a Christian no matter how their Christianity is defined. And I would tell them so.
The problem is not stereotyping. The problem is that many good church-goers are not really Christians and followers of Jesus Christ. They use their relgion and church to help maintain the cultural status-quo and their life-style of greed and avarice because they don’t want the radical change that Jesus calls them too, like “Love your enemies,” “take care of the poor among you,” “Sell all that you have and give to the poor.” They want a fire-insurence religion where the pastor/preacher/priest just tells them they’re “saved from hell and going to heaven,” and justifies their sinful lifestyle of living for self alone. And, pastor, don’t you dare challenge my lifestyles or tell me of my sins against humanity, like supporting a culture and a government that practices torture.

Go to the website NATIONAL RELIGIOUS CAMPAIGN AGAINST TORTURE http://www.nrcat.org, to sign a the “Statement of Conscience,” take other actions and for resources to help your congregation participate in “Torture Awareness Month, June, 2009.”

It really is the corruption of religion by politics. I also think you have to look at Evangelicals and their view on evil and sin. Maybe because of the role evil plays for many Evangelicals, it’s easier to justify torture, capital punishment, and the war.
What’s more shocking are Catholics who are supportive of torture. There’s no real rationalizing around the Church’s teaching about life. It is even different from abortion because it torture is the state–acting on behalf of the citizens–who are doing the torturing.
But look at someone like Rod Dreher. He has been blogging a lot about torture in the last few weeks–maybe he’s tired of gays and needed another cause–but where was Rod Dreher three years ago? Why is it that suddenly Dreher find torture so appalling yet he was mute for the last four years?

When the news first emerged from Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, I was horrified that our country had sunk to the level of torture. I always thought, as President Obama has said, that we were better than that. To this day, I cannot fathom how any American, much less any Christian, could condone such a practice. It is horrifying, it is sinful and it is absolutely, in no conceivable way, even remotely Christian. Shame on any citizen or person of faith who would argue otherwise. Shame.

Why wouldn’t Christians be for torture? God’s for torture. God created Hell, a place for unbelievers to be tortured for Eternity.
When you liberals have been in Hell for a few trillion years, burning in a fire that never kills, hotter than any fire on earth, you might scream and beg to be waterboarded.

Any person that would believe in torture is not a Christian. Christ never tortured anyone, He was tortured.
But the question should be what is torture and what should we do with prisoners that we capture?
Liberals would send them to club med at the taxpayers expense.

These comments about liberals are not only off base, they are stupid. Go display your ignorance somewhere else.
p.s. Jesus was a liberal.

you so, called ‘christians’ have cheapened a once esteemed title. not only are you not C-H-R-I-S-T-IANS your still nailing Christ to the Cross with liberalistic views and loose morals. Thanks but please do not coimpare yourselves to bible thumping Christians. Leave that to those that KNOW the TRUTH. A Believer

By the way if our Good Lord did not support violence as a means to an end then why would he annoit David (David and Goliath) as King? If your child or loved one were kidnapped I can guarntee if you captured a suspected kidnapper water ?torture? would be the nicest thing you would do to try to get information on the whereabouts of your family member. If not your a fool and it is easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a Foolish man to get to Heaven>

amen Bokonon and churchmouse

Well, I guess we true believers scared the liberal so-called Christians away. Good riddance.
Jesus was a liberal? That’s blasphemy!!!

Finding fault with spelling and grammar is so typical of the intellectual elite liberal.
When the Bible doesn’t back up their views, they have to resort to typo checking.
They won’t think they’re so smart when they’re burning in Hell along with their Muslim terrorist friends.

Liberals are the ones to be pitied. They could be living a happy life if only they would believe. No wonder they are depressed.
They think they will find the truth by reading many books; yet they ignore the only Book where truth can be found.
I don’t want to learn too much. Learning might cast a cloud over what I already KNOW.

I do not see why Christian should not support torture. After all, their God did ask his followers to commit genoicide, kill babies (which I guess is o.k once they are out of their mother’s wombs) and rape virgins. So torture seems to be perfectly at home within the Christian tradition to me.

Wow, some of the comments on this blog are unbelievable.
The American Heritage Dictionary defines a Christian as “one who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus; one who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.”
Jesus taught us how to treat other people. The simplest: Love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus said to talk nice to other people
Jesus was very clear about loving your enemy Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-28; Luke 6:34-36; Romans 12:19-21. Jesus does not provide any exceptions that justify torturing anyone.
Where is the justification for torture in the New Testament?
I agree with DrDeb:
“Doesn’t it logically follow that Christians who support torture are not supporting Jesus? I think some people could view this as hypocrisy, and research shows that increasing numbers of people are leaving Christianity and other major religions because they view religious people as hypocrites:”
Note it is the Evangelical Christians that most supported torture. The mainline Christians least supported torture. The Pew report separated the two in the polling.
Christian centered on the life and teachings of Jesus
Support for torture:
6 in 10 “evangelical protestants”,
4 in 10 “people unaffiliated with any religious organization”, and
3 in 10 “mainline protestants” support torture.
Bush and Cheney ignored their mainline church that said “Tell Bush That United Methodist Do Not Torture”

Bokonon said:
I don’t want to learn too much. Learning might cast a cloud over what I already KNOW.
O!, my paws and whiskers.
I.am.speechless.

Here is a major part of the reason we are having this discussion and why 6 out of 10 evangelicals believe torture is OK with Jesus.
To buttress his support of torture, Beck airs clips from 24, Ollie North’s 1987 testimony
http://mediamatters.org/countyfair/200904220034
Fox & Friends hosts, Beck cite fictional congressional testimony by 24′s “Jack Bauer” in defense of torture
http://mediamatters.org/items/200901130014

I once beleived like Julie and that attracted me to Christianity. I think Jesus is a cool guy and his teachings (many of them in any case) albeit not all of them original, should give people a frame to learn how to get along in a loving, peaceful manner.
But all Christians I have met seemed to considered all parts of the Bible equally important and authorative as Jesus’ words -which it makes not sense to me. What’s more, most Christinas I’ve met, when in facing a contradiction in the Bible (which seem to abound) more often than not would follow Paul’s or the O.T advice instead of Jesus. Once I asked about this. I was clearly told that to be a Christian it was more than to follow Jesus, but it was to follow the word of God as found in the Bible. So I said good-bye to Christianity and took what I could out of Jesus’ teachings, to use it, togetehr with other spiritual teachings in my life…and none of them include torture.
As and after thought, I’d like to say that for people who beleive that this is a worthless fallen world and true life begins after death, many Christians do seem to go to extremes to stay here.

Exactly what I said before. You dont know the meaning of christianity. Therefore you are not a Chriatian.

What happened Ludicris chick, poke a nerve?
The truth is that my fingers are unusually large from years of hard work and thumping on the Bible and I initially assumed that the general point I was conveying had been produced. Sorry, I was not politically correct enough for you.
You have actually been useful though in that your intellectual shortcomings have shown your true colors. The Liberal movement is actually code for whiny, pompous, better than you, “cool people”. If this is a prerequisite for membership to your clique then I am happy to stay over here on the green side of the fence.

Great comments, Julie, Rob the Rev, and K.!
I would send you all a friend request, but I don’t know how to find you. If you want to send a friend request to me, go to http://community.beliefnet.com/drdeb and click “Add to friends” on the left.

The reason that Jesus sometimes sounds like a politically correct liberal, pacifist hippy is that he’s trying to show people how impossible it is to be perfect. He wants us to be saved through faith in him, not through works.
Everyone is born a sinner, so you can’t escape Hell through works alone, anyway.
Jesus and the Old Testament God are one person, so I am sure that Jesus as God is for torture of those who don’t believe, especially those who threaten the security of this Christian Nation.

I heard a sermon once that pointed out that Jesus was not interested in running a government or an empire, so when christians decided that was their main concern they would always gravitate to the old testament view of god, which was far more conducive to government.
I would say it is more conducive to government than to virtue, myself.
I would also say that anyone who believes god is a torturer, and yet chooses to worship him, perhaps deserves to spend eternity with a torturer.

By the way, this post answers the question from your last post but one, about why unaffiliated people are more likely to admit it nowadays than they were. Who on earth would admit to being a christian if it implies that you approve of torture?
I have had students ask me how I can reconcile being a christian with being a good person. And I teach at a catholic college!

I can’t believe everybody here seems to be foolishly buying the original premise without asking any questions. This egghead, Sullivan, draws his own conclusions about the poll–which, obviously are going to be slanted against Christian and/or Conservative views–and you all buy into them hook, line and sinker. Then you proceed to either defend or attack what may very well be a faulty premise.
Silliness.
Question 1: what is torture? With all the talk about water-boarding lately, that may very well be what is in the minds of those answering the poll. But the poll never asks. Isn’t a definition important? Some people who may be opposed to the type of torture that causes physical harm may have answered the question based only on a belief that water-boarding is included in the definition.
Question 2: What is the differentiation between “sometimes” and “rarely”? If you ask me, the line seems pretty fuzzy. This leads to personal interpretation. A person who feels strongly one way or the other may interpret, say 4-5 occurrences per every 1000 cases as “rarely” while a person who feels less strongly about it may think of it as “sometimes”. This poll does not clarify.
Question 3: What type of information may be obtained by torture? If you asked the same question but said the information that may be obtained by certain interrogation techniques would potentially save thousands of lives, I’m sure the results would be different. Or, at least they should. But, again, the poll does not clarify.
Question 4: Why such a small sample size? Does 700 people really represent 300,000,000?
The only thing we can draw from this poll is that there’s a potentially significant difference in the way people belonging to different religious demographics answer the question the way it was asked. But, with so many different variables in the way the question was asked I don’t know if we can draw any significant conclusions at all.
Anyway, these are just the thoughts of a guy who believes “figures don’t lie but liars figure”.

By the way, my criticism above is not just limited to the posters. Even Mr. Waldman tags this story with “Why Christians Support Torture”.
I would think the editor-in-chief would try to be a bit more scholarly in his approach.

Frankly, I’ve never met anyone who favors torture. But, what counts as “torture”? Without a definition, the whole conversation is less than illuminating.
If all coercion, negative stimuli, or even some forms of pain count as torture, then parents torture their children all the time.
Come on! Let’s define the practice first, then we can determine whether or not we favor it.

The fact that waterboarding and all the other forms of torture the US practiced under Bush#43 and the conservative Christians is illegal under both US law, several internation treaties and conventions of which the US is a signatory and was adamantly refuted by both George Washington and Ronald Reagan matters naught to these Christians who advocate torture.
“Jesus and the Old Testament God are one person, so I am sure that Jesus as God is for torture of those who don’t believe, especially those who threaten the security of this Christian Nation.”
To quote on of the many, many torturing Christians…
Fascinating. Jesus is for everything that conservative Christians and Republicans desire. Regardless.
Several months ago, Rod Dreher asked me on his blog if I truly meant it when I said I felt physically threatened by American Conservative Christians.
I answered yes, he dismissed my fear as baseless. I do wonder if the last weeks have, perhaps, opened his eyes a bit as to why so many Christians – gay, transgendered or straight – are terrified of what these Christians have done to our country and in the name of our God.
As New Age Cowboy said, may God save me from these Christians.

You liberals have nothing to fear as long as you don’t interfere with our God given right to bear arms.
Christians are not violent people. Only someone with a very guilty conscience would feel physically threatened by God’s Army.

A belief in Hell is a belief in the most extreme and protracted torture conceivable. It is no wonder that those elements of Christianity that most emphasize the fear of Hell–evangelicals and catholics–should hold torture to be an effective means of obtaining coerced allegiance. It is inevitable that those who believe in a God who tortures should themselves support torture. They hold themselves to be created in God’s image; if God is a torturer, then so is Humanity.

Finally someone on here has told the undeniable Truth.
I’m not sure I like Pyotr’s use of the words “some elements of Christianity” though. I would have substituted “True Christians.” I would also strike the words “and catholics.”
However, after that bit of minor editing, I don’t believe I can improve on Pyotr’s summation of God’s way.
God, being perfect, and just, cannot countenance the sin of Unbelief or of putting other gods before Him or of questioning the ways of our Creator.

After reading the comments from Bokonon I wonder if not an unbeliever is hiding himself behind Bokonon. Being an evangelical christian myself I do not recorgnise Bokonons views as christian views.
Another possibility is that Bokonon makes Jesus to everything that his extrem conservativism needs, to be justified.

Christians who attend church regularly are being brainwashed to accept the false doctrines of the Great Apostasy Paul warned about. Crazy? Not so fast. About all of the “leaders of the “church” have been preaching the Bush doctrine of war and torture and have been rewarded to the tune of $Millions in “Faith Based Initiative” money. Christians who are too lazy to read the bible for themselves have attached themselves to the prevailing winds of deceit. The next step for them is easy. They will just as readily accept the mark of the beast. These people are also under the false delusion that Zionist Israel is the same people as the Israelites in the bible just because they call themselves Jews. Jesus warned about these deceivers in Revelation 2:9 an 3:9. There are true descendants of the Tribe of Judah, but in the end, only 12,000. My proof is by judging the fruits as we are taught to do. (Only God can judge the heart) When a pastor or leader calls for the assassination (murder) of an enemy and for torturing individuals and bombing men, women, and children, it is obvious they are blinded by deceit. Their moral compass is spinning them to hell. So be it.

I am a Christian and I’m not for torture. And besides it isn’t God who runs hell; that’s Satan job. Satan tortures people in hell. In Heaven where God is, Christians who faithfully serve other pple as he would like to be served himself and believe in Him, there’s no torture.
As far as I know, after JC died on the cross for us, our sins will be washed away from us- as long as we follow His word. And to torture other people including non believers is not christian.

I, as a Christian, have asked myself what IS torture and why is the United States accused of performing it? I have always considered torture that which causes the damaging the human body either permanently or even temporarily. Any technique that involves causing bleeding, scars, broken bones, teeth, fingernails, bruising, loss of life, limb, eyes, etc is clearly and I believe indisputably torture. I am NOT aware the US has engaged in these type activities. I could not support such actions and I doubt few would.
But then I asked myself, “what about techniques that cause fear, doubt, embarassment, or are designed to trick or fool the intended target… while doing NO actual physical harm”?
Well, this is the crux of the arguement about what is or is not torture. What if I scare someone in order to extract information? Is this torture? I do not believe it is. It may be MEAN AND A DIRTY TRICK but the recipient will suffer no physical harm. What if I embarass him or insult his beliefs? Again, that is a MEAN thing to do and offensive to the recipient but what about his bones… they are not in the least broken, his fingers are still attached to his hand, etc, etc. Well, what if I make someone feel like or believe they could actually drown during an interogation? Well again that is highly unpleasant and frightening AND it is MEAN but, is it torture? Not if you apply my original definition. Is meanness itself torture? Many say that it is. Is frightening someone or tricking them torture? Some say yes. Is causing someone one mental embarassment or insult torture? Some say it is. Well in that case what if we tell the subject of interrigation that he is ugly and has a big nose? Is this torture if its not true? Is it torture if he really IS ugly and has a big nose? Could doing this hurt his feelings?… Well sure it can… BUT IS IT TORTURE? If tricking, insulting, embarrasing, frightening, lying to, or making someone uncomforatable is torture then we are ALL guilty of “TORTURING” our friends, aquaintences, wives, children, etc on occasion.
As an aside, I would no longer support these known interregation techniques now becuase our enemies KNOW they have NOTHING TO FEAR. They know that we are really pussycats and will not harm a hair on their heads. When they know this going into the interregation then they merely laugh at us as they have nothing to fear. We might be mean to them but it will not result in any meaningful intelligence. We have shown our hand to our enemy and he knows we are bluffing and will do him no harm.

The irony is, now that torture is a tool of state, it will cause more suffering for those Christians who supported it, or their children or their grandchildren, and whatever generations of Christians to come, than any terrorist attack that will ever occur. Look at history and the Bible. Torture is the weapon used against Christians. Has been, now will be.
This is the sorry result of Apostatizing Christianity.
Christians adopt non-scriptural methods for Church
1. Real estate based church vs. New Testament house church model. Resources diverted from scriptural mandates and squandered on luxury country clubs. Financial pressure results in adoption of false doctrine (tithe) to fund unscriptural palaces. Anti-scriptural tithe requirement for leadership, pressuring the poor, respect of persons.
2. Unscriptural and money intensive seminaries used to screen and produce Christian leaders. Seminaries prove susceptible to false doctrine and sabotaged texts. Seminaries spread false doctrine and texts to churches. Christians ignorant of scriptural methods for Christian leaders. Christians ignorant of the scriptural method of preaching. Unscriptural method of preaching leads to watered down preaching and chronic scriptural ignorance.
3. Christians abandon the Lord Jesus Christ Almighty’s preserved text and adopt scripture texts sabotaged by apostates and heretics (read The Revision Revised). God’s word is slandered from the margin or footnotes every time a Christian crosses them.
4. Christians, under-exposed to scripture, polluted with false doctrine, and over exposed to pagan political commentators, adopt pagan politics and values instead of God’s values. The false carrot that is dangled in front of the Christian, is the reform of wicked laws via voting for the “right” political party. This keeps the Christian in the right political line instead of testifying against wickedness in both parties.
In their scripture ignorance, the Christian is even deceived into believing that non-believing Presidents, from the right political party, are born-again Christians. Some even validate these non-believers as Christians. This is a terrible witness to the unsaved, who believe that this is what a Christian leader of a Government acts like! They shudder and are appalled at the evil perpetrated by them.
And with this rotted stench filling their nostrils, they will then hear of their need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation from their sins?
The Church’s pagan politics are undermining the Great Commission.