Friggin hilarious!

I suspect even Evangelicals would make an exception for abortion vs. “letting” their kid grow up gay…

I’m glad you switched from just Christians in general to evangelicals in this blog. I go to church, and I don’t want to be lumped in with the conservative evangelicals.

Stephanie, You have once again displayed the talent for taking what is essentially banal, toothless subject and turned it into a genuine chucklefest. Nothing like taking things that pain others and turning them into grist for humor. Comedy=Tragedy+Time?

Howdy! JustGuessing, I didn’t switch over, it’s been about evangelical Christian culture from the beginning because I think Christianity is different from American Christian culture.
And thanks Ransacker…I actually think it’s a serious subject, the fact that Christian families aren’t perfect underneath like they like to display. Transparency would be so huge.

“I go to church, and I don’t want to be lumped in with the conservative evangelicals.”
Ever read the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican? For the record, you’re not the publican.

So, the message is that sometimes people choose to have their babies instead of getting an abortion? And those babies, like all kids, can sometimes grow up to be successful?
Wow, what a news flash.
At least Tim’s mother was free to follow her heart.
Another thing: A college star who has never taken a snap in the NFL starring in a commercial about ANYTHING during the Super Bowl?
I can see the linebackers and defensive linemen all lining up to give Tim his first “welcome to the NFL” hit.

Stephanie,As much as I don’t disagree, I think the presentation of the illusion of perfection is not once again just something endemic to just Evangelical Culture or American Evangelical Culture. This plague is rabid everywhere. Capped teeth. Silicone Breasts. Smiles. It is rabid in Western Culture Period. We as Christians probably have a greater responsibility to strike it from our own cultural set of do’s and dont’s? Do we? I am wondering what our responsibility is in this.

One of the best posts ever! Bravo! It reminds me of this commercial I saw on one those “World’s Greatest Commercials” shows where they showed what appeared to be archival footage or stills of Hitler’s parents and parents of some other tyrants that I don’t remember and then at the end it said “Don’t you wish they’d used a Trojan?” or whatever rubber they were shilling for. So yeah, all life is not sacred.

Appalachian Prof -
I don’t want to be lumped in with the evangelicals but because I think I’m better than them (believe me I have my own special set of flaws) but because of don’t agree with them on some issues. I don’t think religious groups should get involved with the government. Religion should be about helping and serving people not trying to get them to have all the same beliefs that you do.

Ray of sunshine that I am, I wonder how many of the evangelicals beaming at CBS’s blatant duplicity in airing their commercial (PSA?) stopped to consider just what the hell Mrs.Tebow was doing in the Philippines while pregnant and in such a health condition that her life would be in peril by carrying Tim to term? Probably about as much thought as they’d give to consider that the Philippines is by and large a superstitiously fanatical Catholic culture that has always outlawed abortion. Once again, necessity becomes virtue.
One of the best fights I ever had came after filling out some questionnaire one of the self-righteous youth pastors in my mother’s church made the teenagers do. It basically asked you whether you would abort a child you knew would be born with this whole list of physical disabilities and when you answered yes after really exercising an admirable amount of critical thought for a 17 year old they’d then tell you, “congratulations, you just aborted Beethoven!” To which I said something like, “I hardly think that the medical sciences in the late 1700s were so advanced that anyone could tell if their child would be born with a disability, much less to abort a fetus.” And the hilarity ensued.
I didn’t realize it then, but I was engaging in a battle of conditionality vs. causality with an absolutist and his agenda. There was no realistic possibility of Beethoven ever being aborted, but that wasn’t the point of the evangelical argument. The idea of course then, as it still is now, was that abortion makes you personally accountable for canceling a potential. When you cast yourself in the God-like role of deterministic, perfect divination and know the “absolute” future, it’s far easier to pick out the Good Guys and the Bad Guys for your examples. I’m sure if you cast yourself in the role of a pregnant mother carrying a baby who you knew with absolute certainty would eventually grow up to gas 6 million Jews and be responsible for the worst human events mankind had ever known, you may feel a little different about aborting him.
That prospect is much more comforting when you ‘know’ your child will grow up to be a well loved football star.

Since she had placental abruption and that condition is firmly in the case of “except to save the life of the mother” – how about ads showing hundreds women’s widowed husbands and motherless older children. Cuz frankly, THE CHICK LUCKED OUT.

I was actually a little disappointed at how non-controversial the commercial was. It’s like they had to dumb down the pro-life factor in order to remain the favorite all-American, Christian family. They masked the agenda so well that I couldn’t imagine a woman who might be struggling with her choice seeing that commercial and choosing not to get an abortion. Especially for someone who may have come from a really shitty family. “Celebrate family” might be the exact reason someone does not want to have a baby.
I think their need to dodge any criticism rendered the commercial ineffective. It’d have been more effective if she actually told her story and said she didn’t regret having her son. The “what if he becomes a football champ” factor really has nothing to do with regret or celebration. The fact that he’s a good guy probably has very little to do with being relieved that she didn’t have an abortion. Many people love their kids whether they’re perfect or not. Many people don’t. Some people celebrate that they were rescued from their families.
Honestly, I have to wonder how much choice she actually had in giving birth. Christians aren’t really allowed to choose abortion. Is it heroic that she “chose life” when she’s barely allowed to consider the alternate option, even if the doctors encouraged it? No. I mean it probably gave her something to think about for a day or two (aka: temptation), but we have it ingrained in our minds that abortion is never the right choice. It’s not a difficult choice to make when everyone already told you the “right” one.
A woman who truly believes abortion would’ve been the best option but opted to have her baby, and had a very difficult life with an imperfect child and did not regret her choice, may have actually swayed some people who are struggling with the same choice, since that WAS the underlying agenda. A woman “celebrating life” through the hardship of imperfect families and difficult decisions may have actually inspired some people to appreciate their lives for a moment, crappy family and all. That commercial said nothing. It falls into Stephy’s past categories of innocuous or lukewarm. It was so unmemorable that I needed this reminder to think it through. Thanks for the reality check!

i’m glad i wasn’t the only one that thought that commercial from focus on the “family” was bull crap. this is one of the reasons i no longer call myself a christian and left the church.

Rollo: ouch, that hurt my head! But I think I liked it.
Chrissy: Way to bring reality into it. Thanks for the letdown .
AND, I have to repost this comment by Stephy from the FB thread because it rocks so much:
“I don’t think the commercial was trying to be evasive, but rather I think that Christian culture doesn’t much any frame of context for people who exist outside of what they know, and creepily, they don’t seem to see the irony in how their own families tend to turn out versus how much they want them to look a certain way. I just don’t think the culture is super cognizant of why they do what they do; they don’t challenge many ideas, but they tend to swallow them.”

Hail Mrs. Tebow full of grace!

I love Tim Tebow’s mom, too. *bike horn*

I find it quite ironic that their argument ‘good thing she didn’t abort because look what he turned out to be’ implies that the worth of the person is wrapped up in their abilities and achievements rather than life being sacred because we are created in the image of God. What if he was born with one arm and a speech impediment?

http://www.SatanHatesTebow.com

I’m really disturbed by the apparent okay-ness of objectifying a human being to market a cause. This kind of thing erases a child’s personhood.
Parents who parade their successful non-aborted children (or their two dozen children) and parents who excommunicate their gay/Catholic/other-religiously-affiliated/disappointing children are doing the same thing. In either case it’s not about what’s best for the child or what the child needs, but about the parents turning the child into an example for the sake of an ideology. It’s living in social marketing, not love. It’s dehumanizing.
From what I can see, all this has turned Tim Tebow into a thing, not a person. He’s a poster boy for the homeschooled/missionary kid movement, and now the anti-abortion campaign. I wonder if anyone has asked him if all his drivenness to be successful and perfect has anything to do with a perceived pressure to make his parents glad they didn’t abort him — to earn/keep their love or prove his gratitude. It’s a pressure felt by “oops” babies and adopted children; I’ll bet it’s just as bad for kids whose births had a chance of not being permitted. I mean, what’s the motivation behind telling your child that you thought about aborting them? How is that helpful or beneficial to the child?
Those kinds of stories are for personal settings. Like, if Tim Tebow’s mom one day found herself sitting on the bus next to a pregnant woman who vocalized her indecision about whether or not to have an abortion. (Not that saying, “I had my son and he’s wildly successful!” would be really that encouraging, but…) That’s the kind of scenario where talking about a difficult decision and the healing and strength that came out of it might do some good. Because then the healing (the story; the person hearing the story; Relationship) is the focus, and not the cause/ideology/agenda (the person who made the decision; the result; Doing Things).
That’s the problem with marketing faith, hope and love. The idea of keeping something to yourself and reserving it for appropriate situations, where a suffering soul might actually experience love through the revelation, isn’t even a blip on the what-should-we-do radar, and the message, the real message, Jesus and his love and understanding and compassion, gets lost. I think we’d be a lot more effective at taking Christ’s love into the world if we stopped marketing it altogether and instead lived our lives in intense awareness of ourselves and the people in our immediate surroundings — if we made a life out of loving our neighbors. Love isn’t something you get from a commercial, and suffering isn’t something you alleviate by making one.

@ methodistsearching: My crew watching the Super Bowl discussed your point extensively. We can’t wait until Tim gets to the pros, and the defensive linemen let him feel “the hand of God”. “Hey, meat, Jesus loves sacks.”

When I saw the commercial I was over taken with the sudden urge to jump kick James Dobson in the throat–then I calmed myself as I too realized am a pastor.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the most “common” type of Evangelical family has probably not done all of the following:
a) chosen not to get an abortion
b) had a son
c) had that son grow up to be sexually attracted to men
d) become estranged from said son due his sexual preference
Granted, that does happen. Much too often, in fact. But I highly doubt it’s the most-common Evangelical family situtation template.
Evangelicals are easy targets. So are most people who actually subscribe to what they believe. I’m no Evangelical, but at least they attempt to adhere to something instead of sort amorphously refraining from definition.

No, the most common type is probably one I’ve seen written about here before – the one who drives one of their children away (in the case of my family that would be me) through their excessive, judgmental, unbending, anti-educational religious views, and now does their best to pretend that child doesn’t exist. I can promise you, no one in my family is celebrating the fact that I wasn’t aborted. After all, I”m bound for hell anyway.

Mark, I would much rather watch you kick James Dobson in the throat than see that commercial again.

Em: Hahahaha!
Raven: You do exist. Bless you.
Sarah: How do you think that fast? Mega-vitamins?
John: loved it.
Kyle: That’s not the most common Evangelical family template simply because Evangelicals have more opportunity to screw up their families than the standard statistical occurrence of homosexuality in the population. Less sarcastic and to your point, though, what seems just as common in my limited experience is:
a) chosen not to get an abortion (if that’s really a choice, as Chrissy says)
b) had a son or daughter
c) had that son grow up to be sexually attracted to men (or that daughter grow up to be sexually attracted to women)
d) chooses not to become estranged from said son or daughter due to his or her sexual preference
e) winds up questioning other sorts of other Evangelical assumptions and prejudices
d) ceases to be Evangelical (or chooses to live estranged among Evangelicals, perhaps with sad shoulder-patting symptathy from said Evangelicals who do not have GLB offspring)
Note that a person can be Christian without being Evangelical. Such a Christian might “actually subscribe to what they believe”. A person refusing to have his or her life reduced to bullet-points is not “amorphously refraining from definition”. If a lack of sharply-defined tenets makes it difficult to get a grip on me: well, sorry. Not my problem though.

Not ever story of ones life turns out the same. We all have a free will and free choice. But what everyone is forgetting here is that God has a given the Bible to live by in order to live for him. The Bible tells us abortion/murder is wrong, homosexuality is wrong. God considers these sin and no sin will enter into the kingdom of heaven. The Bible tells us that as well. So many people consider themselves christian but only want to take the part of the Bible they want to live by. God wants us to live by the whole Bible not just part. If you don’t live by all of it, then don’t consider yourself a Christian. Not all babies that aren’t aborted will turn out like Tim Tebow but if they are aborted they won’t even have the chance to.

And THAT’s the kind of definition I prefer amorphously to avoid.
Bill is right — sheer statistics prevent the estranged-GBL-child-from-evangelical-parents scenario from being the norm. It’s a frequently cited example because it’s the one that tends to gain the sharpest reactions. (Although why homosexuality is so reviled by evangelicals is beyond me. Divorce is by far the force most “destructive to the family unit” in America, but somehow that one gets a polite blind eye.)
The real issue, as Bill indicated, is difference. The creedism (which is law, not faith) by which evangelicals generally live requires its adherents to “take a stand” when it comes to almost any kind of difference, and “taking a stand” means that most of the time they wind up sacrificing a person for the sake of their creed, which Jesus never, ever did, and never, ever promoted. Christ’s entire lifestyle was centered around dissolving margins and bringing the ostracized into relationship and oneness — thereby destroying definition. Somewhere someone gleefully seized on the definitions in Paul’s writings and used them as an excuse to strengthen the margins and keep the ostracized out. Contradictory much?
Frankly, I don’t see why definition is so important. If the goal is to be one in love, as Jesus prayed in John 17, then definition, which divides, can only hinder the church. If refusing to live by the kind of definition that demands I hurt the people I love because they differ from me defines me as a bad Christian, well, I’ll gladly live with that.
(And Bill…yeah, I don’t know. I haven’t taken vitamins since I was a teenager. But I eat a lot of citrus and leafy green vegetables!)

“If you don’t live by all of it, then don’t consider yourself a Christian.” I think people who realize they can’t live by all of the Bible ARE Christians because they feel a need for Christ. And many people, such as Christian culture, think that they can keep the Bible’s instructions on their own. That’s not being a Christian because those people feel no true need for Christ; they feel proud of their good works.
“No sin can get into heaven.” Was Jesus lying to the thief on the cross when he said he was going to heaven? That thief sure didn’t live by the Bible.

@ Johnna:
“Bible says….Bible says…” The Bible says a lot of things. Some of them may actually be true. What probably most of the people who come to this blog believe about the Bible (or at least what I believe) is that the Bible is not an absolute authority. It’s the first chapter of an ongoing story. It’s where my faith begins, not where it ends. Many of us have wearied of “Bible says” Christianity, not to mention a Christianity that is obsessed with sin and moralism. Jesus did speak about sin, but not merely as much as he spoke about a Kingdom of mercy and inclusion.

I don’t actually think what the Tebows adhere to is completely correct, or even half correct, I’m just saying that I respect the fact that they–at least in theory–have mapped out what they will stand for, and are trying to do it.
In the same way that you don’t want them dictating your reproductive rights, can you criticize their sense of moral superiority?
As funny, ironic, and often sharp-witted as this blog is, the basic premise just seems hurtful. If you are no longer a Christian, stick to politics. If you are a Christian, try to evoke change from within, with love, not as a moralizer caustically pointing fingers.

Hey, check out this take. It’s always so interesting when a liberal recognizes that certain proponents of their side push an “outcry” too far. All in the name of fairness and balance
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020102067.html

Johanna, actually the Bible has not one single thing to say about abortion. Nothing, at all. There’s one or two passages that people with an agenda have tried to twist and turn inside out to make them into anti-abortion passages but that’s really taking liberties with all that “literal word of god” stuff I heard about when I was growing up. (Question – why is the Bible meant to be taken as the literal word of god EXCEPT FOR WHEN it says Jesus turned water into wine, and suddenly it “really means grape juice”?)
That aside, even if the Bible specifically had a passage on abortion like it did on homosexual behavior, it says quite a few other things. The obsessive focus of Evangelicals and Fundamentalists on homosexual behavior leaves out quite a few other sins that are talked about even more, and with more scorn, throughout the Bible. If “no sin” shall enter heaven, that means any of them. That means failing in charity just as much as a man marrying another man. In the all or nothing view of “one sin makes you a sinner” it doesn’t matter if you’ve had 10 abortions and then became a lesbian, or if you told one little white lie once – you’re still a sinner. My overwhelming impression of Evangelicals and their churches, after having lived in them for 18 years, is that some sins are treated as worse than theirs, and they’ve decided some sins are okay to judge, while others they don’t seem to care about so much. They then decide they are the ones who get to sit in judgment on everyone else and declare them hellbound sinners.
According to the words of Jesus, the most flaming gay man is no more and no less of a sinner than the preacher at your church, Johanna. You don’t get to decide who goes to heaven, or which sins are worse than the ones you commit. As far as only taking the parts of the Bible you want to listen to, maybe you should go back and read little bits you seem to be skipping like the parable of the pharisee and the publican, or the bits about love, or not judging others unless you want to be judged the same way.

Raven, Well put. An articulate response to Johna.

I heard and watched all the hype and waited for the “Tim Tebow” ad. I even saw the support groups for the ad. Hmmmmm….what was it all for ! The ad came on and went. I was left wanting something …something more than what I saw. The message for ‘life’ was there but was not as obvious as I had been led to believe. Disappointed…maybe. Should it hve been a more ‘in your face” kind of ad ?
I am unashamedly pro-life and Christian. But what does this mean ? All life is important from the unborn and unwanted to the ‘sinful’.
Sin is being defined and re-defined here in this blog and in peoples lives and is best defined in the Bible ( I do believe in the Bible’s authorship and authenticity). Sin is …..murder to gossip to pride to adultery to idols and everything in between.
Yes before we point out anothers sin we should look inward to see our sin first. And we need to show love ….and mercy…..or not to judge. These things are what those not in the church point out as the faults of Christians who act in an UN-christiany manner. They are also used as a means to substantiate their own views of un – Christlike behavior.
Oops…..rabbit chasing !!! Abortion….. The taking of a life not yet begun to breathe. ALL life is important and precious. It does not matter if thatlife becomes a football star or a homosexual. The message is… special, precious life. And if that life was gone what would we be missing ??
…..the rantings of a Christian lady

Your Name, bless you. I agree that life is precious. 
This would include the lives of the women who choose (or who maybe didn’t have a choice) to get an abortion. 
What is being defined and redefined on this blog isn’t sin (although the word itself seems to be pretty tired) so much as how we should approach wrongdoing and deviation from the accepted norm, being that no one is better than anyone else. As other extremely articulate people have pointed out, the evangelical focus is often an obsession with judgment and sin that was never present in the life of Jesus, and that obscures Jesus’ message of love, community and mercy. 
The point of this post, from what I can tell, really isn’t about abortion but about how it’s marketed, cherry picking the biggest success stories as if choosing life is no different from choosing the most effective diet…with the subtle message that the results matter more than the choice, or the lives in question. As if God cares more for our performance than our personhood, what we “should be” more than what we are. 

Thanks for getting it, Sarah.

I see an great deal of anti-Christian hate in the comments. The original post was typical worldly you-are-no-better-than-us fare, boring and not at all funny. I’ve seen better satire in high school creative writing courses. It is one of many kinds of attacks that have been directed at Christians from the beginning. “You are just messed up as we are!” But with at least one vital difference. Those who believe on Christ and obey him are saved. Those who don’t, aren’t. Christians don’t have perfect lives so much as glorified ends. Better get on the right side, don’t you think? As for the Tebow ad, it was smart and well done, and they fact that so much hatred is directed against the simple premise that the preborn are fully human and not simply tissue to be thrown in a dumpster is proof of the sinfulness and evil of many people. They hate Christians for the same reason Christ was hated; nothing brings out the bile like conviction of sin.

Sigh.

Observer in America, You don’t get it, do you. This blog is not anti-Christian but about a particular type of American Christianity (Southern Evangelical culture) that has so muddled its social morality with its faith that it can’t see that they aren’t one and the same thing. A lot of the people on here are Christians struggling to work out what it means to live a truely Christianity life in the modern (Western) world and one thing they have realised was that Jesus did not go around moralising and condemning people apart from those who took a holier than thou approach to their religion.
If you want to judge us that is up to you but remember what Jesus said about being judgmental (Matthew 7:1-5)
Sarah, I agree ‘Sigh’

Observer, would “bile” include statements like, “I’ve seen better satire in high school creative writing courses”? Just wondering.
“Better get on the right side, don’t you think?” sounds like the threat of hell, to me. Is that really what centers your faith? Really? It is a fearful way to come to know God. Constantly examining one’s “obedience” (which when overemphasized seems often to morph into obedience to men) to see if it measures up enough to keep one out of hell is a fearful way to have a relationship with God. I thought perfect love casts out all fear. Certainly that is my sincere hope.
I’m perplexed when people read this blog and think it’s anti-Christian, if by that one means anti-Jesus. It’s not attacking the foundations of Christianity to suggest to Christians idolizing the Tebow family to examine the state of their own families, to put their own lives in order before suggesting to others how to live. Please, listen to what Stephy actually says, rather than listening for whatever magic words activate your ability to feel offended.
Like Still Breathing said, a lot of what happens here is “struggling to work out what it means to live a truly Christian life”. And a lot of it is group therapy for people injured by their experience in Evangelical Christian Culture. That does create some churn. But one shouldn’t mistake that churn for the “bile” created by the “conviction of sin”.

I have to admit I had to google ‘Tim Tebow’ to ‘get’ this (NFL is not real big here in New Zealand!). You’ve made some great comments – looking on from a different hemisphere, it does appear that a large portion of American Christian culture (especially in the South) “has so muddled its social morality with its faith that it can’t see that they aren’t one and the same thing”. I’ve recently subscribed to your blog, and I must say, as a Pastor I find your comments insightful & refreshing (with some great laughs too – albeit mostly at the expense of Americans!) keep it up, I think I get what you’re trying to do, but I cringe when I read comments from those who don’t

I love Tim Tebow, and his mom by proxy. No, I’m not evangelical but I am a Christian. And I laughed my a@@ off at this! It’s not anti-Christian, it’s funny.

Wow, you really stretched for this one. This post was kind of sad, Stef. Not the Tim Tebow thing, but your post. I felt like there was some hate here, very unlike you. Sucks to be Tim, I have never seen an athlete that secular society has wanted to see fail more than him… and what has he done wrong?

Billy, I’m not understanding where this perceived hate is located in the post (or anywhere on this blog, particularly on Stephy’s part, for that matter). Could you explain? I can think of at least a dozen different rejoinders to your remark, which means the criticism was vague.

I think Bill is right. I do see the same thing.

Billy, I don’t see where you read hate into Stephy’s post. I detect a lot of sadness at the number of evangelical families that break down because some family members don’t live up to the evangelical ideal espoused by the rest. The fact that we are all sinners who are loved equally by God somehow gets thrown out the window.

Billy, Yes, maybe there is some hate there. And yes alot of this is a case of all those people urinated on by Evangelicals in the name of Christian Love and Concern, suddenly becoming the cool kids and talking smack about their previous culture. So hence, you might also be wearing the razor wire thong that some of these folks are sporting in reference to the American/Evangelical subculture and the almighty clusterf*ck that they’ve unleashed. Conversely Billy, the polically correct mafia only leaves one group unprotected, and that is the American Evangelical Christian. To paraphrase a Dorito’s commercial “Go ahead and be a hypocrite folks, there is plenty to go around…….” Nothing but ugly for us all in this regard.

Excellent post, Stephanie.

ransacker, hahahahahahaha!! I’m guessing I’ve just been dissed, but I still found your post genuinely hilarious. Thanks.

Bill? Billy? Actually Billy 7:36 on 14 Feb.. No diss intended. Just using idiot metaphors to say all of us are culpable of hate, intolerance, etc…… No one gets off scot free on any of this….. Sorry if you felt dissed. I apologize.

No, not that Billy…but the Bill who did say (or quote rather), “If the shoe fits, wear it” . No apologies necessary. Thanks for switching up the tone.

@Observer in America. Why do the most righteous of people bear the fruit of unkindness? I find it sad and funny that the disgruntled are always so mean. Mean and blunt is interpreted as “bold” in your circle. It is much more bold to practice kindness toward those we disagree with, than to insult them and warn them of hell. Whether we believe what you claim to believe or not, are we not still created in the image of God? Does he not still love us? If his love is based on the condition that we agree with everyone who claims to follow him, then his conditional love is not worth it. Meaning, if I have to be mean in order to receive God’s love, then I don’t want it.
If you could please explain why people who say they love God, so quickly show contempt toward His created beings, I’d appreciate it. In short: Why are Christians so mean to people who aren’t like them? If you’re not sure, then perhaps you could explain why your response to this blog entry is so mean? When exactly does it become appropriate to replace kindness with unkindness? When does God become unkind toward us? And if his kindness and love is conditional then why should I follow him? When contemplating your response to my questions, please remember that “boldness” is not a fruit of the spirit. Thank you!

Just sayin’, a lot of the observations made in this post were probably true 20 to 50 years ago, but now? Not so much. An evangelical family forcing their pregnant daughter to marry just to end up in divorce is not likely anymore, obviously two wrongs don’t make a right. And expressing your delight in your 18 year old daughter in whom you chose not to abort, but who now ended up pregnant herself? I don’t see the correlation here. What do the two have to do with each other. I don’t see the point in criticizing where the church went wrong in the past, and if we mention what the church is doing right we get criticized for bragging (see Haiti relief). Double edge sword. Anyway, I really enjoy the blog sometimes, but I am beginning to realize that I will always view most of this with a different mind set than most others who enjoy this blog. Peace.

Billy: So, no hate, then. That’s good.
I think you’re right that social practices like shotgun weddings are twenty years out of date in non-evangelical society. But the evangelical church is notoriously “behind the times,” and so practices that seem outdated and strange to the average person are still widely accepted in Christian cultural circles. While I was in attendance five years ago at the conservative, evangelical Christian college from which I graduated, it was not uncommon for girls to elect to have abortions because they dreaded telling their parents they’d gotten pregnant. (My sympathy on this one lies with the girls.) I also know a good number of young couples who got married early due to pregnancy and pressure from their evangelical parents to do “the right thing,” and whose marriages later suffered. “Two wrongs don’t make a right” is a great saying, but I think that even now a good number of evangelical parents see a forced wedding as a “right” correcting the “wrong” of premarital sex and pregnancy.
As to the correlation you didn’t see between rejoicing over not aborting your 18-year-old daughter and mourning her youthful unmarried pregnancy…that’s actually the point. It’s irony: Stephy is setting up a scenario that is supposed to make us realize that something here doesn’t make sense. From what I can tell, she’s saying that people only broadcast and celebrate their decisions not to have abortions when their children turn out to be perfect and successful. When they choose not to have abortions and their children grow up to be disappointing, evangelical parents don’t look back on their decision not to abort and “celebrate family, celebrate life.” Instead they agonize over who went wrong where, and bemoan the shame their children brought on them, and fail to see where their families are beautiful, individual, and gifts from God, regardless of how the children turn out or what they believe and do when they grow up.
So you won’t find a middle-aged couple proudly saying how glad they are that they didn’t abort their daughter if she grew up and got pregnant at age eighteen. You only tend to find parents celebrating family, celebrating life in the rare occurrences of hugely successful offspring like Tim Tebow, who not only kicks ass at a major sport but wears Bible verse references on his eyeblack. But that doesn’t happen very often. Instead you find a lot of sad or angry evangelical parents who mourn their non-evangelical or screwup children as if the kids had died. So the Focus on the Family slogan rings kind of bitterly hollow for a lot of families — for parents who are hugely disappointed in their children (or at least disappointed in the idea of their children, where they stop seeing their children as real people at all), and for children who are badly hurt by their parents’ disappointment.

I can name for you 13 Christian girls I know off the top of my head (just counted) who in the past five years have gotten pregnant and their parents and pastors made them marry the baby’s father, and 10 of them are now divorced. I can also name for you 8 guys I know who dropped out of college and live at home and their parents make them go to church in exchange for living at home. And I can name for you 16 guys and girls I know who grew up in the evangelical church and their parents have disowned them because they are gay. It’s not fun or comfortable to look at what goes on in the church. I don’t blame you for being upset, Billy. And I also won’t hold it against you that you don’t get irony. It’s kind of amazing you read this blog at all.
The giving of money and aid to Haiti isn’t a problem, it’s definitely like you said a good thing. But bragging about it and also proclaiming the amount you gave is exactly what Jesus said not to do when you give, because it’s proud, self-aggrandizing and exploitative.

Stephy, Your comment made me sad and angry at the same time. Sad at the circumstances and angry at the hurt and pain caused by Christians. What good comes out of forcing a couple to marry? Does forcing someone to attend church do them any good at all? Doesn’t God love all people including those who are gay?
Sorry – end of rant.

I had this huge response typed up, then I deleted the entire thing after this came to mind. 1 Corinthians 5:12-13.

Billy, SInce you deleted your post I don’t understand what context you are applying those verses to. Just to be clear, I read the English Standard Version, which says:
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Why did this verse change your mind about posting your initial response?

guess I should have said 1 Cor. 5:12-13a, didn’t really intend that towards any evil person. Basically, debates never accomplished much outside of arguments, therefore “what do I have to do with judging outsiders?”
ps- is this considered bragging? http://www.stevenfurtick.com/elevation/love-your-city/

Erm…sorry, Billy, I know I’ve gone on at some length in response to your comments, and I’m really not trying to be a jackass (honest). I appreciate your willingness to give and take a little in the conversations. I’m still confused by your explanation to Chrissy, though. Could you explain who you mean by “outsiders”?

Billy, So you’re saying it’s futile for you to respond to “outsiders.” Thank you for explaining. “Outsiders” are difficult to deal with, huh? I understand. Your fellow bloggers also understand coming from a culture that encourages:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/2008/09/43-having-only-christian-friends.html
And, yes. Boasting about how much Steven Furtick and Elevation Church raised for Haiti is still bragging. You don’t have to like the truth but you may as well acknowledge it because you and I both know “the truth will set you free.” Your pastor might not as perfect as so many hope he is. Don’t worry about it.
You ought to join us. The people who struggle and question. We wrestle, like Jacob, for the truth. It seems you are the outsider here, and perhaps we ought not answer you? I’m not sure. I’m inclined to think so, because you so quickly assumed none of us could be one with Christ because we disagree with your opinion. In summary, I am suggesting you consider us as beings created in the image of God, and not dismiss our conversation so quickly whilst telling us you are dismissing us as “outsiders.” Nonetheless, You might enjoy the following:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIA1uU8VFMY

“It seems you are the outsider here, and perhaps we ought not answer you?”
Chrissy, I think you’re right. I know that there are a lot of things un-biblical about the Christian Church today, that’s why I attend Elevation Church. I grew sick of committee meetings, bake sales, and youth trips to amusement parks. You told me not to assume none of you weren’t with Christ, but if one was, there wouldn’t be so much criticism of the church. As far as your YouTube video, read the responses. Anyone who actually enjoys this video should be embarrassed by the authors comments. Sounds like the crazy preacher from Kentucky who protests soldiers funerals.

Back to the matter at hand, there is very little, if anything that justifies an abortion. Frequently throughout scripture Jesus is very fond of children even stating that if someone mistreated one of the little ones, that it would be better for a stone to be tight around their neck and thrown into the ocean. Jesus even said that the Kingdom of Heaven was made up “of people like this,” meaning children.

Billy, my dear, judge not lest ye be judged, for with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
I am fully aware of the reciprocity of that verse, and for the most part I am comfortable being judged by my measure. Our criticisms of the church here on this blog stem as much from a deeply passionate love of what the church is supposed to be, as from trauma and anger and bitterness.
The mindlessness you seem to be advocating in blindly following the church without criticism doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible. Every Old Testament prophet, and God himself in the Old Testament, severely criticized God’s chosen people for all the ways in which they failed to honor God — and most of those failures had to do with ignoring the cry for social justice — which includes, by the way, the failures in our society to present feasible alternatives to abortion (yes, I know. There are crisis pregnancy centers offering support up through the birth and adoption of the baby. They’re a Band-Aid on a severed artery). Jesus criticised the religious leaders of his day with far more vitriol than we level at Christian culture here. Peter and Paul and James wrote with acidic ink when it came to trends among the churches that failed in Christ’s love. The history of our faith is a noble history of criticism.
A country’s greatest patriots are its harshest critics. It is our duty, if we love the church, never to accept its areas of wrongdoing. If we turn a blind eye, or shrug and attend a church that commits fewer injustices and are content to leave the rest alone, we are as guilty of the spiritual damages done in the church in Christ’s name as if we were directly complicit. A laissez-faire faith when it comes to letting the church get away with its own brand of murder has very little to do with the love and concern of the Christ who wants *everyone* to come to him as little children, and therefore sees each one of us as a little child, whatever we have or haven’t done. Those of us who stand idly and silently by while people commit injustices in Christ’s name — THOSE are the people who ought to have millstones tied around our necks, for causing the wounded, the vulnerable, and the suffering to misunderstand the person and love of Jesus, and for failing to love as Christ loves.
You’ll notice, by the by, that no one here has insinuated that you’re not really a Christian. I can accept your thinking I’m not. It’s an odd judgment call for you to make, though, when anyone’s salvation is something you have no way of knowing. But those are the kinds of judgments we criticize, because they have no place with Jesus.
I don’t really expect that you’ll hear any of this. But I hope you do. Like Stephy has said, I think it’s amazing that you read this blog.

“The mindlessness you seem to be advocating in blindly following the church without criticism doesn’t appear anywhere in the Bible.”
Wow, you really don’t know me. I accept the fact that humans are fallible, and I overlook this because I know that I’m a screw up as well. I have endured the scorn of southern baptist pastors just because I wore a hat to church, I was even mocked for wearing shorts to Sunday morning service once. I realize that some people will never change their mindsets. I’m not accusing anyone of not being a Christian, I just don’t see the point in blaming the church for everything negative. Sure many in the church used scripture to justify slavery, but don’t forget the push to end slavery came from the church as well. Social injustices were also justified by the church, but the greatest civil rights leader pursued justice through the eyes of Christ (MLK Jr.). So, all I’m saying is that if you choose to call out the church in it’s shortcomings, feel free to acknowledge the blessings as well. Yeah, I really don’t know why I enjoy this blog, I’m a glutton for punishment, I guess. Mindlessly following the church? Don’t think so, you have no idea of the doubts I have sometimes. Or the questions I have that I know will not be answered on this side of eternity, I just accept the fact that I am not God, and there are some things that are not intended for me to know. If that is mindless, then I see your point. I went back to school to get my B.S. in Religion in hopes of answering some of my questions. Guess what, I’m an auto technician with a bachelors degree now, LOL. If I said something earlier that was out of line, I am truly sorry, I mean that. I don’t want to put a bad taste in your mouth because of my faith (or yours for that matter). It appears there are enough people on here that have been burned by (so-called) Christians in the past, the last thing that I want is to be another stumbling block. Peace.

Billy, Thanks for your explanation. In your earlier comments you sounded as if you were doubting the salvation of the participants at this blog because we criticize the church, as if criticizing the church means one can’t or doesn’t belong to it. From your most recent comment, it sounds like that’s not precisely what you meant. (And in the universal body of Christ, well, some of us here are cells in the fingernails, the stomach, the small and large intestines, the spleen, the liver, the gallbladder, the nose, the adrenal glands, the lymph nodes, the teeth.)
Harsh criticisms of the church aren’t the same as “blaming the church for everything negative.” Great things have come from the Christian faith, and I don’t think anyone here would deny that. But this particular subculture of Christianity is loud, bullying, self-satisfied and often wrong (yes, I’m good and mad about that; it has damaged me and a lot of the people I love), and ignoring that or glossing it over is to do violence to the beauty and power and love and responsibility that Jesus taught to his disciples. Fortunately, and gloriously, I believe that the anger and criticisms you see on this blog are a precursor to a change, which is happening organically and gradually, and is morphing and gathering forces to start to take these things we’re so angry about and do what we can to make them different. I do not believe that anyone here is content to sit fruitlessly stewing; from these simmerings will come action. Blame is refusal to take action, and it would be a shame if we here did that.
We all have doubts, we’re all in need of grace (though a lot of us are still figuring out what that means), and this blog is a place where people can freely express what they’re working through. Like Chrissy said, we’d be happy to hear your wrestlings with truth and life and God and everything as it is and everything as it ought to be; feel free to add your own doubts and questions to ours. That’s what this community is for — and that’s the part of the church I’m grateful for: the people in this cyber-community. I’m glad you struggle in your faith, not because I wish you anguish, but because doubt is wonderful, and necessary to a living and vibrant viewpoint. Faith isn’t a prescription or a formula, and living the way Jesus taught us to live isn’t easy or clear-cut. Mystery abounds, there are no black-and-white answers, and that’s something to rejoice in, because the unknown brings us all, hopefully, to a place of humility. (I’m still a work in progress on that one.)
You’re not a stumbling block to my faith; don’t worry. (But thanks for worrying.) Sounds like I hit a nerve more deeply than I intended, and I’m sorry for that, although I’m glad to understand where you’re coming from a little better.
By the way, I got my Bachelor’s in English literature, and right now I’m a legal secretary and receptionist.

Billy, you’re a good egg.

Billy, the rest of the verse justifies our criticism of the church “Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?” This verse actually encourages those of us in the faith to judge the actions within the church.
Many of the criticisms in this blog, stem from the desire that we wish the church would quit playing games and pushing agendas, and simply get real. There is little freedom to be human in church with no pressure to conform to the stereotypes discussed in this blog. I know many wonderful, real Christians who have learned to be themselves without submitting to the collective conscious of the church that suggests Christians should look and behave a certain, very specific way. Frequently, the people who do not conform are seen as “spiritually off” or that “God’s working on them.” This attitude promotes conditional love. I believe you and I would agree that conditional love is the exact opposite of what Christ teaches. The stereotypes we discuss are observations that many of us see as destructive to the faith. They stifle our humanity, and rather than setting us free in Christ, they put us in bondage in the church. Perhaps you have never felt the pressure to conform to the image of the church, but many of us have. And it has been very beneficial for us to laugh together as we discuss what has been detrimental to the faith, as we wrestle with the truth. Too often the detrimental aspects of the church, cloud the place where our faith is to be rooted and grounded. Following the stereotypes hinders people from following Christ, and the church is guilty of inventing, promoting, and encouraging the perpetuation of these behaviors, which we have come to perceive as religiously trite. Our criticisms are justified by our tears, as well as being justified by your verse of choice.
Also, the purpose of the post is not to justify abortion. It merely poses the idea that this Focus on the Family commercial is unrealistic. I’m curious as to what your response is to the numbers Stephy posted. Your critique was that her suggestions for a realistic commercial were dated, and when she proved they were not, you decided it was not worth responding to “outsiders” and subsequently decided the post was about abortion. What gives? Are you planning to validate your points?
I’m with Sarah. You don’t have to worry about stumbling me. I enjoy these conversations and it’s good to know you wrestle with doubt.

Thanks Steph, like it or not, I really admire you.

I would enjoy a board where we could talk about our doubts and struggles, let me know if you decide to post a rant forum. Or if there is one already?

There’s a tab on the SCCL facebook page that says Discussions and you can start one over there if you like.

I thought of another likely scenerio for a Mrs. Tebow-like mom to share:
“I had sex alot with my boyfriend, which is just fine if you love each other in the Spirit of the Lord, but because we are both active members of the church, we kept it on the downlow. Even though I occasionally had an “in the Spirit of the moment” hookup at a Christian Youth retreat, I never told my boyfriend about those times of weakness, because it was between the Lord and myself. And because learning about and preparing for sex and STDs is embarrassing, ruins the romantic mood, and probably sinful, we never used condoms either. I eventually got pregnant, and 30 years later, my daughter is a doctor.”
“So be like me, and have secret, ignorant, unprotected sex as much as possible.”

Stephy, How long did it take you to find a picture of Tim Tebow with Gay in it?

Ha, Tebow isn’t in that picture, it’s from the Super Bowl which took place like the day before the post. I found it randomly at dlisted.com, I think.

Billy said: “So, all I’m saying is that if you choose to call out the church in it’s shortcomings, feel free to acknowledge the blessings as well.”
Why don’t you start a blog discussing the “blessings” of the church? I would actually read it since I attend church every Saturday and consider myself to be a conservative Christian (although I am pro-choice and don’t care whether gays marry or not).

Good idea Cassandra, go for it!

I’ll poke fun at meself here. I’ll do an ad my my parents (not evangelical but still..) They open with me and them sitting in a room smiling at each other, great, right? But PAN OUT and guess what? we’re in a rehab *gasp* then it’ll play clips of my parents and me doing various herion addiction related things. Being arrested, opening a credit card bill to see thier kid stole their card, me in withdrawl, a wallet with no money and the token “herion visual” the outstreched arm with a clentched fist that doesn’t pan up far enough to see the needle. In the end of the commercial they’ll have me engaging in some sort of drama at my local methadone clinc to show that I’m not dead and have recovered, so see, at least she came around. Not so much, huh?? Ohhhh!! But this would make a great ad for my clinic!!! Maybe I can sell them this idea and get a cut of the profits.