Pun intended. Starting today, two of our bloggers–
Tony Jones and
Rod Dreher–will begin a
debate discussion Beliefnet Blogalogue on same sex marriage. They’ll post on their respective blogs and link back to one another.
Here’s what’s unique about this discussion, and why you should tune in:
First, we did a lot of thinking internally about how to set this up, and how to make it more than two talking heads yelling past each other. Same sex marriage is perhaps the single most charged issue in our nation right now in the wake of
Proposition 8 and similar measures.
To prevent the usual shouting match, Tony and Rod have decided to be as relational about this as possible. Tony, who lives in Minnesota, is flying to Dallas today, where he and Rod will meet for the first time and have lunch together. (Fortunately, Tony had already planned to be in Dallas this week). They’ll get to know one another a bit, believing that presence can steel them against prejudice.
Second, Tony and Rod are both Christians who subscribe, more or less, to the same creed. We aren’t pitting
Bishop Spong against
James Dobson. Tony is politically progressive while Rod is politically conservative, but in terms of theology, these two men share a great deal. The same sex marriage conflict is not a conflict between the faithful and faithless; it’s an intra-religious conflict as well.
Third, Tony and Rod aren’t setting up a few canned essays that they’ll lob at each other in a few rushed days. They will take their time, if need be, in their responses–reading, reflecting, praying as they post.
Tony’s first post is up this morning, and it’s a nice early effort at merging the personal with the conceptual. Stay tuned for more, and share your own views either below or on Tony and Rod’s blogs.
posted November 20, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Is this site free?? I haven’t been able to find that information. This site just showed up in my mail. I am a christian and this site seems interesting but I watch where my money goes. Linda
posted November 20, 2008 at 8:17 pm
Christians who cloak their bigotry in their warped view of their religion should learn tolerance and follow the golden rule. It is not for us to judge. Live and let live. Even if you don’t like gays or think they should get married, you have no right in this country, which is not a theocracy, to make civil laws forcing your religious views on all of society.
posted November 20, 2008 at 10:11 pm
…kind of like anti-discrimination laws being used to promote same-sex marriage education in schools? For those that claim that’s a doomsday scenario, spare me your naive lovefest. This will not be the end. Religious liberty will suffer. I should know, I’ve lived in both MA and NJ and it’s already happening.
posted November 21, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I attended a course on an entire weekend on homosexuality in the bible and a very mixed crowd, gay and straight. It was very interesting that at the end most everyones opinion is that ministers have twisted the Sodom and Gomorrow way out of context. It was a rape and murder scene between all kinds of people. Male raping males and males raping females and children. It was awful and sure a subject that is taboo in most churches. Christ never mentioned it once. God is Love, Love your neighbor, Love is kind, the greatest of these is love ECT… Why do Christians sway from the basic rules of Christ? Screaming everthing is bad and forcing their unfounded opinion on others seems to make them foolish. A gay person never makes a straight person gay. a straight person never make a gay straight. It is foolish and ignorant in my opinion.Gay marriage does not destroy the vows of marriage if it is based on love.__It is intersting in life to observe in many communities that I have lived that straight marriage leading to divorce is supported rather than trying to prevent it from the church. I hope gays have a better marriage record than the straights because they certainly have a bad marriage record. Who casts the first stone? Is it you?
posted November 21, 2008 at 3:45 pm
I think if I were a Gay person in the United States I would be throughly tired of having citizens debating about whether I should have the same rights as they, the heterosexuals,. We are all equal under the American Constitution and nobody should have to be the subject of debates on who is equal in this country, and have people vote on who is equal. Today on Dr. Phil’s show there will be a debate between 6 people about this
posted November 21, 2008 at 4:22 pm
I think the Sodom and Gomorrah argument is the wrong text to use.
Check out Leviticus and Deuteromony along with St. Paul. Personally,
from a civic standpoint, I think homosexuals and lesbians should
have the legal right to matrimony, with all responsibilities entitled
by the state.
From a religious standpoint, I cannot agree to the blessings of the
Sacrament of Matrimony for any same sex couple.
State and Church have separate duties regarding marriage.
posted November 24, 2008 at 8:58 am
I’ve read all of your comments and I see that you are loving Christians. It’s refreshing. I think thats exactly what we need as a family. UNITY. I see both sides of this issue in my own church. I wish that the “anti-gay” attitudes could just love everyone the same because we are all saved by Jesus. He would love both..Just like all of you do.. From Sodom and Gamorah to Ruth and Naomi these don’t apply. Those folks should read them again. __In Christ’s Love, Tricia__
posted November 24, 2008 at 11:54 pm
I don’t have anything against homosexuals, however I don’t beleive that the bible promotes homosexuality.
Here are some Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” Lev 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.” 1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals” 1 Tim 1:9-10 “realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers” Rom 1:26-27 “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
Just something to think about. I think too many people twist the bible passages to their own way of thinking.
posted November 27, 2008 at 6:29 pm
The assumption that the Bible is the last word or final authority on social values and ethics is very presumptuous. Rational thinking, research and a knowledge of human behavior should be used in making critical decisions. If Biblical statements are true, they then they must be substantiated and not presumed to be true. Same sex marriage is not an issue found in the Bible.
These Bible quotes do not demonstrate anything pertaining to the subject of Gay Marriage: Here are some Bible quotes, Lev 18:22-23 “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.” Lev 20:13 “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.” 1 Cor 6:9 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals” 1 Tim 1:9-10 “realizing the fact that (civil) law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers” Rom 1:26-27 “For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”
These are Paul’s opinion on homosexuals and Lesbians. Paul does not have the last word on what is right or wrong.
posted November 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm
My beleif is according to the Word of GOD which states the law of man is for those that don’t believe in obedience of God’s law. They will be judged in the END by the LORD OF LORDS who is JESUS.We are suppose to show love even when we don’t agree with a person’s choice of living.Condemnation is for God’s doing not ours.If they choose to disobey Him then they will not inherit His KINGDOM.
posted December 2, 2008 at 10:45 am
on this subject of same sex marriage, is a difficult one to answer. First let me say I am by no way judging. I am divorced several times over. God did not want any man divorcing his wife but knew man was of flesh and could not be without sin, God is very saddened with divorce but knew they would exist. I am not happy to speak of my past or past mistakes. Now I am a very spritual person, a Christian. But do we as a society have to have ones sexual preference such a part of public affairs. No God does not want homosexuality, or divorce, or murder, or theft, or any other sin we each and everyday committ. In the eyes of our Heavenly Father sin is sin, we as a society seem to measure sin, one being more than another. But I do not care who you are, pastor, preist, man, woman, general, president, mayor, ditch digger, actor, prostitute, you are a SINNER. But with myself, I am divorced, if I marry I will still be a sinner, I will just have a marriage license, (mans peice of paper saying I am married, and mind you a sinner because I have been married previously) So if I get married, I am still sinning, if I cohabitate with the one I LOVE I am still sinning. YES same sex marriage is wrong, yes divorce is wrong, all sins are wrong, but thank God he gave his one and only son so that we ALL have the free will to ask Jesus to come into our hearts and forgive our sins so that we may spend enternal life with Him. So, if you have truely asked Jesus to come into your heart and you are saved by Grace, then you as well as I have to live our lives here on earth as closely as possible as Jesus would have us to live. Now why is our country so worried about this sexual preference and why are gays and lesbians so worried wheather or not you have a peice of paper saying you are married. Believe me that peice of paper will not keep you happy or married because there is a paper saying you are divorced. Again God loves us all and sin is wrong. We should all be more concerned about these final days and prepare our selves for the coming of Jesus and the choice we all have to live eternity in Heaven or Hell.
posted December 2, 2008 at 6:11 pm
Anyone who insists that being gay is okay and that the Bible is just another book is typical thinking from those who have not read the Bible, or who will not accept the Bible’s teachings. They are being controlled by Satan, who desires that they oppose God and do what they want. This is the world view, or human reasoning, which comes from Satan.
Doing God’s will is not always easy. God says that one cannot serve two masters, either you will hate the one and love the other, or vice versa. In other words, one cannot be obedient to God and practice a gay lifestyle; the two are incompatible. Further, so many bash the Bible, God and Christianity BECAUSE it is contrary to want they want to do, and their sinful activities are making them feel guilty about what they are doing. So, the result is either bash God and his Word and continue in pleasurable sin, or repent and obey God. Further, the critics of God and his Word set them selves up as superior to God and assert, in their crtiticism, that Christians and Christianity are inferior to them; that, somehow, their viewpoint is superior and should take precedent, because it’s what they want, and that it is NOT what God wants for them.
The Bible is a set of rules, a manual for living, that is the inspired word of God. It cannot be interpreted to fit various beliefs and desires. Romans, Chapter one explains fully what God says about what we call homosexuality.
Lastly, homosexuality, or same-sex-attraction, is a NOT normal. It can only be cured by reading God’s word and believing, not reasoning with it, and doing what it says. Only then can a person be released from its grasp. The New Testatment is the key to a cure, as well as the key for eternal life.
posted December 3, 2008 at 11:21 am
I believe in Adam & Eve NOT Aam & Steve. I myself as a VERY straight man can fathom that kind of lifestyle .I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that nobody is born that way. Ialso know that Jesus can and will save,deliver and heal them of that perversion. Who in thier right mind would believe God would make such a ‘thing’ I really and truly feel sorry for those people!! I pray for ALL of them evry time I run into them. I sincerely hope and pray that they will give thier heart to God before they die.
posted December 4, 2008 at 6:44 pm
It’s so easy to say that someone who doesn’t believe what you believe is controlled by satan or possessed. Will you put them to death next? When did Christians become so angry, hateful and not-so-Christ-like? They will know YOU by your fruits.
jealousy 9) outbursts of anger 10) lack of unity 11) dissentions 12) cliquishness 13) envying 14) drunkenness 15) orgies, and things like these.
GENTLENESS 9) SELF-CONTROL
FRUIT OF THE FLESH
1) sexual immorality 2) impurity 3) extreme sensuality 4) idolatry 5) witchcraft 6) hostility 7) bitter conflicts
FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT
1) LOVE 2) JOY 3) PEACE 4) PATIENCE 5) KINDNESS 6) GOODNESS 7) FAITHFULNESS
posted December 6, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I am a christian. I believe that the bible is complete and without any errors. I believe that the bible comes from God. Now, to address a previous statement “that Paul was speaking his own opinions in I Tim.1:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-27 and that “he is not the last word on whats right or wrong”. I agree that paul is not the last word on whats right or wrong…… but the Lord Jesus is! I Cor. 14:37, Paul says “the things that I write are the commandments of the Lord”. Friends, Paul wrote the statements in I Tim.1:9-10 and Rom. 1:26-27.They are the commandment of the Lord!
posted December 7, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I agree with everyone’s post and I believe God is a god of love and the only thing he hates is the sin not the sinner, on this principle he has allowed us the opportunity to share his love but we have to use our free will to make the choice to continue in the sin that so easily besets us or to do the hard thing and walk the narrow path.
As others have said we all sin and sin is sin and all fall short. Also I would like to add that we as a people have allowed this moral issue to come the point of actual litigation and now we have to subject our kids to alternative lifestyles that otherwise they might not be influenced by. HLTG’s only make up 1 percent of our population but it would seem that it is more if you don’t like this to be subjected upon us as a whole then you need to vote and litigate and use the law as the do to stop the progress of this behavior. I believe that we forget that our country was founded on principles that were set by God and Godly people took charge in love to make a better life for themselves and we need to follow their example and do the same “TO STAND AND STAND SOME MORE”
GOD BLESS