The New Christians

Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue: Prolegomena 4 - Emotions

Tuesday November 18, 2008

Same sex marriage is an emotional issue to begin with, and the stakes have been significantly upped by the passage of Prop 8.  So I have no doubt that my blogalogue with Rod (which I intend to start tomorrow, on the eve of our lunch in Dallas) will provoke strong reactions in the comment section and in the blogosphere.

I'm not averse to emotion in this conversation.  Keith Olberman's monologue last week is a good example of emotion being used to good effect:



I've also done what I can to hear from the voices of the GLBTQ community who have been most immediately impacted by these election results.  Here's one that caught my attention.  Money quote: "Finally, I fear for you.  If the God you worship is the one about whom I've read, you've got some serious explaining to do.   As the woman in John 8, I'd offer you the first stone, but I'm already bloodied by proposition 8."

But emotion cannot win the day, as Andrew Sullivan has repeatedly warned.  Nor, I hope, will Rod and I rely on emotion to direct our dialogue.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope we can allow emotion to play a role in our blogalogue but not to overwhelm us.
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Comments
Todd Burus
November 22, 2008 2:18 PM
http://ToddOnGod.com

I have not taken the time to read all of the comments made here (sorry, I'm playing catch up a little with this blogologue) but I do have some initial reactions to Olberman's diatribe.

First, since Olberman does not seem to share the religious sentiments of many involved I will not hold him to being consistent with the things he says about God and/or the Bible. However, if he seeks to dismiss their arguments out of hand, I would like to ask him for a little charity. If someone is going to use the "black=gay" argument to say that we were wrong then, we are wrong now, I believe they should not try and pit this as an argument against the Christian view. The Bible certainly does not place race and sexual orientation on the same footing the way civil rights proponents are accustomed to do.

Second, the argument that gays have been forced into sham heterosexual marriages because same-sex marriage was outlawed is a total non-sequitur. It is a problem that we view marriage as a right, and apparently in Olberman's case as a necessity. For the Christian, the Bible never claims marriage to be a necessity. Marriage is at best a privilege, like a drivers license, and in the case of America it is up to the people to decide who that privilege is extended to. No one is arguing that blind people should be granted the right to drive in order to satisfy their need for speed, and though the grounding of the objection is different, the idea is the same: we have decided against it because we do not believe it is in the best interest of the country.

Larry Parker
November 22, 2008 3:49 PM
http://community.beliefnet.com/doxieman122

Todd:

So gays can't get driver's licenses?

Because if that's all a marriage license is -- a privilege requested from and granted by the state -- which most pro-gay marriage supporters say it is, what's the big deal? Unless gays should not get ANY privileges from the state, of course.

Religious ceremonies will go on as houses of worship want them or don't want them, under the First Amendment. But by your own logic, if the civil law stays as it is, a lot of gays might want to start researching mass transit.

Todd Burus
November 22, 2008 4:48 PM
http://ToddOnGod.com

Larry,
Please, if we are going to continue this interaction, do not misrepresent my comments. My argument was not that gays should not be extended any privileges from the state. What I said was that the people of the state get to decide who they feel it is in the best interest of the state to extend specific privileges to. This is why blind people can't get drivers licenses, because it is not in the best interest of the other drivers, pedestrians, homeowners, etc. Similarly, the people in the states which have asked the question have decided that it is not in the best interest of the family, the society, the children, etc. to extend the privilege of marriage to homosexual unions. That is their prerogative, and as you know I argued elsewhere, is why our focus as Christians must be on what the Bible says and if we are going to abide by that.

Mike Margarit
November 23, 2008 4:00 PM

It is sad that society and "Christians" in general has decided that God has nothing to do with anything pertaining to our lives and the way we are to conduct ourselves. Morality has been replaced with new age thinking. The Holy Spirit has been completely taken out of churches and out of the lives of parishioners. The Emerging Church is another one of those sects that has decided that they are the ones that can convey the truths of the Bible and what God really say's about sin. They are the ones that have come up with another Gospel another god and another spirit and a new way to worship the creator.

This is nothing new and it surely is a sign that the end times are close at hand. We may say that, in this modern era, the spirit of the Sadducees is alive and well and has come to us in the garb of modern Christianity and in the Emerging Church They have completely taken out the Holy Spirit's work and have replaced Him with their own intellect. Helping communities and making sure that they don't offend, is their main objective.

No where in my Bible have I seen anything of the sort. Paul say's in the book of

2 Timothy 4:2-4:

"Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

That's what this is all about. May God help us all.

Mike Margarit
November 23, 2008 10:44 PM

Tony,

I'm really perplexed as to your comment regarding of posting scriptures to the issues at hand. I would really like to know what you really think about the author of the Bible and how we are to interpret scripture. How can you and I come to different conclusions in interpreting scripture. The Holy Spirit is the one that brings you to those truths as born again believers and born of the Spirit. The Bible is a difficult book because it came from the infinite to the finite-from the unlimited, all powerful God, to limited man. As we approach the Bible praying that the Spirit will be our teacher and will guide us to a better understanding of His Holy Word as He is the author of it. So their should be no ambiguity when it comes to the Word of God, as He is the author and finisher of our faith.

Is God, a God of confusion? Shouldn't you be extremely concerned about someone's eternal salvation, just as our precious Lord is. Also being a concerned brother, shouldn't you be concerned about protecting the church from wolfs (false teachers).

I'm really confused. Please explain to me as to how you come to your conclusions as to delete someone from your site, if they disagree with your assessment of God and interpreting scripture. The only reason that I would quote scripture in a post, is because, that is the ONLY way that we can distinguish truth from error. Show me any other way as to how we can combat the spiritual world and the schemes of the enemy.

God Bless,
Mike

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About The New Christians

Tony Jones is the author of many books, including The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier and The Sacred Way: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life. He is a leader in the emergent church movement and a renowned expert on postmodern theology and the American church landscape.


Find out more about Tony, his books, and his speaking schedule at his website.

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