The Pragmatics of Belief in Hell (Keith DeRose)
I'm Keith DeRose. I'm a philosopher who blogs a bit on the side. Rather than giving any more introduction to myself here, I'll just send those who are interested in reading about me to my web page, where I have...
You've got my attention... curious to see where this goes. This topic has followed me everywhere I've gone lately.
I would be very interested in this conversation as well, but first, what is "the traditional doctrine" and what makes it "traditional?"
Hey Virgil: I mean to be referring to basically the same thing that "Real Live Preacher" means by the phrase. What I'm using the phrase to denote are views according to which those consigned to hell suffer eternal torment -- so there's a commitment to endless duration and to the nature or character of hell being nasty enough to make the term "torment" fitting -- and according to which those who are consigned to hell are those sinners who do not accept Christ by the time of their death. Different versions of the doctrine can have different ideas of what's involved in saving "acceptance." And we can make room for different ideas about some exceptions concerning who is sent to hell -- like, for instance, those who die very young, those who don't have the mental capacity to meet the acceptance condition, etc. For my current purpose -- discussing the "pragmatics" of such a belief -- such details are often unimportant, because they often have little impact on the effects of the belief. Of course, not all Christians have held such a doctrine, but enough have to make the label "traditional" at least arguably fitting.
Thank you Keith for taking this on. I'm currently working through the theology (and quite necessarily the pragmatics) of soft universalism, and the conversation around hell will no doubt be of use to me. AS an Episcopalian, I'm looking forward to, sorry Tony, something other than sex defining the conversation.
It seems to me that the only argument in favour of this is fear of hell provides a goad to follow the rules. It may be that this has some applicability for those who are at the beginning of the journey, but later it becomes a problem for those who think about what it says about the God of their religion. The promise of heaven is also useful and problematic for precisely the same reasons.
Personally, I think the utility of heaven and hell are offset by the problems that result from them. I will close with a favourite quote attributed to the Sufi mystic Rabia:
"O Allah! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell,
and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise.
But if I worship You for Your Own sake,
grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.”
If God exists, then the one worthy motive is to seek God for God alone and nothing else. If God does not exist, heaven and hell become the tools by which people can be manipulated for good or bad by charismatic speakers. In either case, their utility is more than counterbalanced by their liability.
Tony told me the Beliefnet folks might be through, deleting comments they deem inappropriate. I guess that's what happened here -- At any rate, *I* didn't delete any comments. Someone apparently deleted an inappropriate comment, and also a few comments that responded to the inappropriate one (and that wouldn't make sense w/o their target). I just want to tell those responders: I saw your comments before they were removed, and appreciated your welcome & expressions of interest.
Keith,
In your pragmatic discussion, can you offer any hints for how to communicate an orthodox or "traditional" view of hell? For example, when an angst-ridden atheist accuses you of shaping your theology in reaction to your diapers being wound too tight as a child? My blog recently got attacked because I offered a parallel between sports and judgment day, God thumping on the "bad guys."
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