The New Christians

Our Biggest Weakness: Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue

Tuesday January 6, 2009

blogalogue_bar.jpgRod,

Happy New Year!  I'm glad that we've decided to get back into our blogalogue this month.  I know that lots and lots of readers want us to tackle the biblical evidence one way or another regarding same sex marriage.  And I know you'd like to return to Lisa Miller's essay in Newsweek.  I also want to defend myself against the constant stream of criticism that I'm on the "slippery slope."  Let's be sure to get to all of that.

But to begin the new year, I thought we could admit something to one another, and to our readers: what, for each of us, do we consider the biggest weakness of our side's argument regarding same sex marriage?  I'll go first.

It seems to me that for those of us who favor SSM, the biggest weakness tends to be an avoidance of taking seriously the six verses of the Old and New Testaments that deal explicitly with homosexual behavior.  I know that some liberals will excoriate me for this, for there is a phalanx of books by liberal scholars that deals with the biblical passages in which homosexuality is mentioned.

But I'm not so much talking about the academic version of pro-SSM Christians, but the more popular level.  In fact, I think that Miller's essay and Jon Meacham's editorial preface to the same issue of Newsweek are cases-in-point.  While I arrive at the same destination as Meacham on this issue, I cannot agree with him that those who marshall biblical evidence against SSM are guilty of "the worst kind of fundamentalism."

So there it is.  I think that pro-SSM Christians too often avoid the biblical passages that deal explicitly with homosexuality.

I will endeavor to avoid that weakness as we continue our blogalogue this month.
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Comments
A Walker
January 9, 2009 5:31 PM

Tony, thanks for the article.

My response to the article is that, for heterosexuals, the need for strict marriage law is the same as ever before. Birth control has not stopped heterosexuals from reproducing billions of babies worldwide, and contracepted women average two pregnancies over the course of their lifetimes.

Next, the fact that people no longer frown upon out-of-wedlock births is not progress, but regress. Single parenting is tough work, and is perhaps the largest single predictor of future troubled kids. Single parenting involves a severely weakened economic environment, disciplinary environment, legal environment, and supervisory environment---and these are the key ingredients of poverty and delinquency. Such a weakened developmental environment hurts both kids and the single parent who has to spend long decades scrambling to raise the children alone.

While it's true that people no longer *think* of sex as being linked with procreation, the reality is that heterosexual sexuality continues to be linked with procreation, and so we still need traditional marriage laws to protect the economic dependents (i.e, women and children) created during sex acts.

Next, the article says: "The only way to strengthen the older form of marriage...would require repealing no-fault divorce laws." Obviously, I concur. In fact, justice with regards to contract law demands that no party has the right to economically injure another party with no penalty.

The idea of a single parent who both makes a stable income and raises infants at the same time is a myth. In reality, that single parent either shoves the kids off to grandma and granddad 8 hours a day, or else that parent forks over 1/2 of his or her annual salary to a full time nanny. The loss of the original deserting partner *must* be replaced one way or another, at great personal trouble and cost to the responsible single parent.

panthera
January 9, 2009 5:36 PM

A Walker,
I think it is time for me to withdraw here for a while. We just aren't getting anywhere, despite the fact that you and I are closer in our views on marriage than most people.

The difference between us is, I believe, that I think it is better to accept the fact that some marriages just can't be saved than to force people, especially the children, to live through them.

I feel that divorce should be a rare occurrence and would wish for the Americans to raise their standards to ours, especially regarding care of the children.

Unfortunately, you are basing your arguments on assumptions which make it very hard to see through to the basic good of protecting people. I can't judge, from what I have seen, heterosexual men are less mature in their teens and well into their 20's then are gays and women. This doesn't change the fact that most heterosexual couples who get married in their teens and 20's are going to divorce. Your totalitarian position on contract law, pacta servanta sunt! is not going to find acceptance. Attacking me isn't going to win you any points from your natural allies, gays who want to marry.

Maybe you should consider another approach to achieving our mutual goals of a safe, sane, loving environment for marriage and the children who sometimes result. Guess I should point out that humans are no longer wildly fertile, at least not where contraception is freely available. Much as I dislike the Islamic world, I do not consider their hateful religion to be grounds to run out, dissolve my SSM, find a woman or three and start making babies to protect us from them.
That argument of yours is virtually identical with my red-neck relations here in the US who are terrified that "the Mexicans are going to take over, 'cause they breed like rabbits." Racism is racism, and yes, I admit to a strong distaste for the Arabic and Islamic world. Making babies is not the answer, raising their awareness that women and gays are human, might be.

A Walker
January 10, 2009 12:43 AM

Panthera,

I've enjoyed the back and forth, and wish to make this my final post for a while as well.

I hope gays can appreciate that most arguments for defending traditional marriage law have nothing at all to do with gays, but rather with the unique material and economic needs of heterosexual women and children. Gays and heterosexuals have very different outcomes to their coupling, and thus the contracts are naturally very different in what they need to stipulate and obligate for the partners. I think that civil unions make sense, given that forcing identical contract stipulations for remarkably different enterprises directly harms heterosexual couples and their children. (Different enterprises require different legal stipulations.)

I'm glad we agree that divorce ought to be rare, but it is laws that shape, inform, and ultimately control behavior in people. So, any marriage law for heterosexuals that permits easy divorce and stipulates nothing with regard to children will logically and inevitably expose heterosexual couples to mass easy desertion. (For sex is easy, but the family obligations that result from heterosexual sex are difficult and life-long---and attraction and romance alone provide only weak and short-lived bonds, thus the need for legal bonds.)

You said: "maybe you should consider another approach to achieving our mutual goals of a safe, sane, loving environment for marriage and the children who sometimes result." Well, just as you recognize the importance of law for your cause and agenda, I likewise recognize the importance of law for my cause and agenda. So, I see no reason to "consider another approach," given that we both agree law matters above all else. We are both seeking LEGAL remedies.

Finally, heterosexuals are indeed wildly fertile, even if less so than the Islamists, who do not attempt to sterilize themselves. So long as heterosexuals continue to be tasked by nature with the procreation and nurture of the next billion citizens of our planet, those heterosexuals and their kids desperately need good laws that *prohibit* spousal desertion of children and build the long-range expectation of family duties. Sadly, gay marriage law does neither, for gay marriage is a short-range romance contract, not a life-long child-raising contract.

Finally, although I've had nothing to say about the breeding habits of different ethnic groups, and since you mentioned it, I feel the need to say that population equals destination. If one group wildly outbreeds another and migrates towards the same living space, the group with the larger population dominates and obtains the rule of authority over the territory and the other groups. That's just the way all populations work on this planet we all occupy. So, dwindling populations in the West equate to the impending collapse of the Western peoples by mere attrition. It's impossible for it to be reversed, given our low birth rates. The West is contracepting itself out of existence and out of a future.

Joyce Mc.
January 12, 2009 12:05 PM

Walker - "gay marriage is a short-range romance contract"

Baloney. Garbage. BS. Bigoted, idiotic, misinformed, mean-spirited, wretched, asinine. How dare you make judgments like that about gay couples, their intentions or commitment.

Just goes to show how self-absorbed the author of such a statement must be.

Jen
January 14, 2009 2:49 PM

So, Is thing really gonna happen?

I admit I feel duped, I began reading then find myself checking each day to see a response.

Has it been put to death yet as a good idea that just couldn't do anywhere?

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About The New Christians

Tony Jones is the author of many books, including The New Christians: Dispatches from the Emergent Frontier and The Sacred Way: Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life. He is a leader in the emergent church movement and a renowned expert on postmodern theology and the American church landscape.


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