Probably the most anticipated element of Cornerstone that I was involved with was a panel discussion entitled, "Gay Rights or Wrongs," which was a conversation about how the church should approach the issue of GLBT persons. (I wrote about other aspects of Cornerstone last week.)This was an exceptional moment in the 26-year history of Cornerstone since they had never before had a pro-GLBT-inclusion advocate as a speaker. In fact, as I noted last week, even as recently as five years ago, the seminars mainly had to do with the merits of creationism, pro-life strategy sessions, and evidential apologetics. The fact that I was there, and that recent speakers have included the likes of Phyllis Tickle, Chris Heuertz, Richard Twiss, Brian McLaren, Jay Bakker, and Shane Claiborne will, to some, show the slippery slope slide of Cstone into rampant, anything-goes liberalism. But to those of us who are a bit more rational about such things, it is evidence of the overall shift (dare I say, emergence) of evangelicalism.
On the panel with me were Rich Amesbury, a professor of ethics at Claremont School of Theology, Andrew Marin of the Marin Foundation, Christine Sneeringer from Worthy Creations Ministry, and Frank Carrasco of Exodus International.
Frank and Christine are both "ex-gay," according to their testimony. When asked, they made it clear that they thought that persons could be cured of what they called "unnatural same sex attractions." At one point, I asked that they panel use the words "gay" or "lesbian," since it seems to me that "same sex attraction" is simply an evangelical euphemism for these terms.
But, to their credit, Frank and Christine were not strident. They both spoke candidly of their love for the "gay community," and professed to having many gay friends. They did not imply at any point that gay persons could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, nor did they imply that homosexual sex is a worse sin than any other sin. At one point, Christine even said that Exodux is not an "evangelism ministry" -- in other words, Exodus does not try to get people out of homosexuality.
That got Andrew Marin's ire up. In what was the only moment on the panel that approached contentious, he challenged Christine on that point, asking just what Exodus is about if not evangelizing people out of gayness. Christine replied that Exodus merely helps those who want out of homosexuality.
Otherwise, Andrew reiterated the main point of his book and his seminars: the evangelical approach to GLBT persons has been abominable, and it hasn't accomplished anything but hurting gays and widening the rift between gays and the church. The first move, according to Andrew, must be love. First love. Once you've got that right, you can consider your next move.
Rich focused on the "heteronormativity" in our society, arguing that the discrimination against GLBT persons is because of the social constructs around sexuality rather than around theological or biblical arguments. Heteros have had the hegemony of majority and used it to oppress non-heteros.
For my part, I proposed that sexuality is a much more complex phenomenon than the church is usually willing to admit. We have these categories -- "gay" and "straight;" "male" and "female" -- when, in fact, many people don't fall in line quite as we would like them to. (I use the term phenomenon purposefully, since one's sexuality is ultimately one's own experience of the phenomena of feelings and chemical processes and social expectations.) What, I asked, does the church do to a boy who is born with undescended testicles? Is Jesus' day, he would have been thrown into a field to die of exposure, but we would consider that inhumane. However, where does that person fit in our communities of faith.
At that point, a hand went up in the back of the tent, and a person testified that, as a hermaphrodite, she's found it nearly impossible to fit in in a church or in society. And a gay teenager in the front asked if the church would accept him if he got married to a man and adopted children someday. And a straight teen asked why she feels pressure to steer every conversation she has with her gay friends toward conversion.
Excellent discussion ensued, ably moderated by Michael Spencer.
Afterward, I spoke to my new friend in the back of the tent, and I was thrilled to find out that she's found a church home in an emergent community of faith that I know well. However, as we spoke, two other former lesbians with Exodus hovered, literally holding an open Bible, hoping to have a moment to talk...
Frank and Christine are both "ex-gay," according to their testimony. When asked, they made it clear that they thought that persons could be cured of what they called "unnatural same sex attractions." At one point, I asked that they panel use the words "gay" or "lesbian," since it seems to me that "same sex attraction" is simply an evangelical euphemism for these terms.
But, to their credit, Frank and Christine were not strident. They both spoke candidly of their love for the "gay community," and professed to having many gay friends. They did not imply at any point that gay persons could not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, nor did they imply that homosexual sex is a worse sin than any other sin. At one point, Christine even said that Exodux is not an "evangelism ministry" -- in other words, Exodus does not try to get people out of homosexuality.
That got Andrew Marin's ire up. In what was the only moment on the panel that approached contentious, he challenged Christine on that point, asking just what Exodus is about if not evangelizing people out of gayness. Christine replied that Exodus merely helps those who want out of homosexuality.
Otherwise, Andrew reiterated the main point of his book and his seminars: the evangelical approach to GLBT persons has been abominable, and it hasn't accomplished anything but hurting gays and widening the rift between gays and the church. The first move, according to Andrew, must be love. First love. Once you've got that right, you can consider your next move.
Rich focused on the "heteronormativity" in our society, arguing that the discrimination against GLBT persons is because of the social constructs around sexuality rather than around theological or biblical arguments. Heteros have had the hegemony of majority and used it to oppress non-heteros.
For my part, I proposed that sexuality is a much more complex phenomenon than the church is usually willing to admit. We have these categories -- "gay" and "straight;" "male" and "female" -- when, in fact, many people don't fall in line quite as we would like them to. (I use the term phenomenon purposefully, since one's sexuality is ultimately one's own experience of the phenomena of feelings and chemical processes and social expectations.) What, I asked, does the church do to a boy who is born with undescended testicles? Is Jesus' day, he would have been thrown into a field to die of exposure, but we would consider that inhumane. However, where does that person fit in our communities of faith.
At that point, a hand went up in the back of the tent, and a person testified that, as a hermaphrodite, she's found it nearly impossible to fit in in a church or in society. And a gay teenager in the front asked if the church would accept him if he got married to a man and adopted children someday. And a straight teen asked why she feels pressure to steer every conversation she has with her gay friends toward conversion.
Excellent discussion ensued, ably moderated by Michael Spencer.
Afterward, I spoke to my new friend in the back of the tent, and I was thrilled to find out that she's found a church home in an emergent community of faith that I know well. However, as we spoke, two other former lesbians with Exodus hovered, literally holding an open Bible, hoping to have a moment to talk...
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I have had conversations with white Christians reflecting on their experiences during the 1950's through the 1970's on the integration of Negroes into their churches.
They speak of many of the same conversations and elements of discourse as Tony does.
Ultimately, of course, the whole anti-gay faction of the Christian church gives the lie to their 'love' for us. People who practice love take the time and trouble to analyze reality and confront the dichotomy between their beliefs and God's natural world.
Christianists love to attack us because it is so much easier to focus on our purported sins then to actually work on developing their own relationship with God. As a gay man, I owe Christians like Tony a great debt for going to bat against these hateful people.
Thanks, Tony. I appreciate your efforts.
" It was clear to see you setting up to cast Exodus in a negative light from the very beginning,"
Nathan, EI sets themselves up in a negative light. They seem to believe God made a mistake when God made me gay. God didn't. That, and they ones I've met are simply not nice people. I know several of themwho have not been 'converted'. They simply lie and take their paychecks. Sad, really.
"But what is love, then? Is it unconditional acceptance no matter what? Is that what love is?"
Well, that's certainly the model Christ gave us, and it's wworked well between Him and me. Sorry you find it "unhealthy".
Regarding "steering all conversations with homosexuals to a point of reminding them of a belief that they're sinning", why must I believe (be forced to 'believe') what an EIer believes? Speaking of society 'pushing' things? My Church and my faith teaches my that my committed love is "sin". Maybe I should be "pushing" EIers to believe what I believe. No, that wouldn't be freedom of religion, would it?
" ... is not sin ..."
For God/Bible-lovers, this issue revolves around what the scriptures say, and nothing is going to change that. Personally, I have no stake in whether or not the Bible condones homosexual practice. But it simply doesn't. I can't help that. Frankly, I would be relieved if it did, as it would make resolution of this issue a lot easier. The groundwork laid in the 2nd ch of the Torah, "Therefore a man...cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh" is simply never given up; not in the OT, with Jesus, or in the NT letters.
My sexual orientation is to have sex with 16 year-old girls and married women whom I happen to find attractive. There is no question that I was born this way, however, it would be Biblically incorrect to say that God made me that way. Yet, having been born-again, by faith I have no intention of ever acting on my aforementioned "natural" desires. We come to God on His terms, as written in His word.
LGBT sex isn't any worse than heterosexual sin, but neither is it somehow "special".
Tony, I have said it before and I will say it again, You are my hero. I honor you and I value you and I am ever grateful for you. I wish we lived closer so David and I could have more time to spend with you.
I was once taught that I needed to pray away my own bisexuality. I did, and even believed for a time that God had delivered me. But he didn't. He did do something for me, though, and the difference in my life was so marked that I could believe for a time he had delivered me. He delivered me from the lustful temptations I was suffering from, the ones that the secular gay community seems to be characterized by. I don't mean my attractions, or any of the other things that make me gay. I mean the things that caused me to see sexuality and women in general as something other than the beautiful gift of God they are. I won't go into further detail, so if I have lost you I guess that is just a chance I am willing to take. The point is there are things related to our sexuality God would desire to help us overcome, to be free from. But our sexual orientation itself isn't one of them.
And by the way, I disagree with you ArtBoy in your assessment of what you call your sexual orientation. To desire young ladies, or to desire married ladies, is not a sexual orientation by definition. But I think I see the point you are trying to make with it.
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