For the rest of the week, I'm going to look back on my experience of the legendary Cornerstone Festival. What many are going to want to hear are my thoughts on the panel on which I sat which dealt with the issues of GLBT persons in the church. That's coming, for sure, but I'm going to sleep on it a couple more days. In the meantime, iMonk, who moderated that panel, has posted about it.
Going into Cornerstone, I really didn't know much about it. I've never been to a Christian music festival of any kind before, and I couldn't imagine that I'd like the music. As it turned out, I heard very little music since the area of the speakers' tents is far removed from the bands. I did walk around with my friends, the Stegalls, and heard a bit of thrash metal. I also went to the main stage one night and heard mewithoutYou, whom I loved (more about that later).
I didn't know much about JPUSA, either. Of course, I'd heard of the Jesus People, and I remember going to see the passion play at the Jesus People Church in downtown Minneapolis in 1983 with my church confirmation class, the same year that Doug saw it, as he recounts in his book. I've also heard a number of people tell me over the last decade, "Oh, I've seen you emergent folks before. In the 70s we called you the Jesus People. You'll grow out of it, just like they did."
A couple points to mention here. First of all, there are some important differences between emergent and the Jesus Movement, which I confirmed when talking to my new friend, Brad Culver. Of course, the era of the Jesus Movement was different -- for all of our outrage, Irag is no Vietnam. Brad also mentioned that if the Jesus Movement had had 1) the theological interest and 2) the social media technology that emergent has, they probably would have been a bigger force for a longer time -- or at least they wouldn't have been tempted to join with the conservative Calvary Chapels of the world.
But, more importantly, Brad and many others at Cornerstone are testament to the fact that the death of the Jesus Movement has been greatly exaggerated. There, in the Underground Tent that Brad organizes every year at Cornerstone were veterans like Brad and young guns like Peter Wohler and Chris Heuertz.
But this is not the world I come from. I hadn't even heard of Francis Schaeffer, the patron saint of Cornerstone, until a couple years ago. And I still haven't read a word that Schaeffer wrote -- I've only read the memoir of his son, Frankie. So I don't have a lot to judge Cornerstone by.
However, I will say this: I think we can see Cornerstone as a sort of belwether of evangelicalism. Five and ten years ago, the seminar tents were populated with seminars on modern, evidential apologetics (Norman Geisler was a name I heard a lot) and pro-life stragegy sessions. Today, the seminars are on creation care, developing new monastic communities, centering prayer, and human rights. Phyllis Tickle and I talked about the great emergence. And, for the first time at Cornerstone, Christians who favor gay rights and GLBT inclusion in the church were allowed to speak alongside those from "ex-gay" ministries.
This is the shift that's taking place in evangelicalism, people. Get ready for it.
I didn't know much about JPUSA, either. Of course, I'd heard of the Jesus People, and I remember going to see the passion play at the Jesus People Church in downtown Minneapolis in 1983 with my church confirmation class, the same year that Doug saw it, as he recounts in his book. I've also heard a number of people tell me over the last decade, "Oh, I've seen you emergent folks before. In the 70s we called you the Jesus People. You'll grow out of it, just like they did."
A couple points to mention here. First of all, there are some important differences between emergent and the Jesus Movement, which I confirmed when talking to my new friend, Brad Culver. Of course, the era of the Jesus Movement was different -- for all of our outrage, Irag is no Vietnam. Brad also mentioned that if the Jesus Movement had had 1) the theological interest and 2) the social media technology that emergent has, they probably would have been a bigger force for a longer time -- or at least they wouldn't have been tempted to join with the conservative Calvary Chapels of the world.
But, more importantly, Brad and many others at Cornerstone are testament to the fact that the death of the Jesus Movement has been greatly exaggerated. There, in the Underground Tent that Brad organizes every year at Cornerstone were veterans like Brad and young guns like Peter Wohler and Chris Heuertz.
But this is not the world I come from. I hadn't even heard of Francis Schaeffer, the patron saint of Cornerstone, until a couple years ago. And I still haven't read a word that Schaeffer wrote -- I've only read the memoir of his son, Frankie. So I don't have a lot to judge Cornerstone by.
However, I will say this: I think we can see Cornerstone as a sort of belwether of evangelicalism. Five and ten years ago, the seminar tents were populated with seminars on modern, evidential apologetics (Norman Geisler was a name I heard a lot) and pro-life stragegy sessions. Today, the seminars are on creation care, developing new monastic communities, centering prayer, and human rights. Phyllis Tickle and I talked about the great emergence. And, for the first time at Cornerstone, Christians who favor gay rights and GLBT inclusion in the church were allowed to speak alongside those from "ex-gay" ministries.
This is the shift that's taking place in evangelicalism, people. Get ready for it.
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Tony, I really don't know what your firm view is. That's why I asked in the way that I asked. The most recent information from you I could find was from this article which you wrote:
TONY:
"The notion of belief seems to be a very messy one that I don't very well understand, but it seems to somehow involve a very complex set of dispostitions: dispositions to act in certain ways under certain circumstances, to have certain emotions under certain circumstances, to form certain other beliefs under certain circumstances, etc. And it's possible to have some of the relevant dispositions without having others. And in such cases, it may happen that neither "yes" nor "no" is a very accurate answer to the question of whether the subject believes the item in question. To use some advanced, technical terminology: They kinda believe it--and kinda don't. By the time I was 12, though I still accepted a traditional doctrine of hell, I only kinda believed it, as opposed to my earlier, terrorized self, who really believed it. The "quarantining" of the doctrine wasn't a simple matter of fully retaining the belief while blocking it from having some of its corrosive effects. Rather, it seems to me, it reduced the extent to which I could accurately be described as believing the doctrine. In that sense, I didn't really believe it."
"That - including such a use of the likes of "really believe" - is how I've been explaining this matter since well before Dawkins's The God Delusion came out. So the following bit really resonated with me (the italics are Dawkins's own):
'Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me.' The adage is true so long as you don't really believe the words. But if your whole upbringing, and everything you have ever been told by parents, teachers and priests, has led you to believe, really believe, utterly and completely, that sinners burn in hell..., it is entirely plausible that words can have a more long-lasting and damaging effect than deeds. (p. 318)
http://blog.beliefnet.com/tonyjones/2009/01/richard-dawkins-and-really-bel.html
I guess I anticipated that your belief in the existence of hell is softening and had lead you to a flavor of UR. Anyway, I was far more concerned about getting your thoughts on how the New Testaments treatments of sin reconciles to homosexuality in the church.
Brad
As Paul Harvey used to say, "And now, the rest of the story": http://www.exjpusahelp.com has stories of JPUSA by ex-members, counter-cult experts, the Chicago Tribune and others.
Dig below the surface Tony. ( And don't let JPUSA defenders comments about me - which usually surface after I've posted the above URL - dissuade you from finding out the TRUTH about this group.
ooo. nice! when they're ready to hear from some actual gay Christians, i'm more than willing to speak! :)
Brad (Happy Calvinist), You are attributing my words to Tony. As I wrote at the start of that short series of posts on believing in traditional doctrines of hell:
I should say right upfront that I have little idea of what Tony thinks about such matters, or even whether he has very specific views here. I'll just be speaking for myself here.
But even if Tony had written those words, there's a lot of room in between ultra-nasty traditional doctrines of hell and universalist views, so that someone is going against one doesn't at all mean he's going for the other.
But, as it happens... If by "the universal redemption view" you mean the view that Christ's act of righteousness will lead to acquittal and life for all people, yes, *I* do accept that Word. For a brief explanation of why, see: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm . Those who want to look into the matter more carefully would do well to read Gregory MacDonald's THE EVANGELICAL UNIVERSALIST. (If you're wondering, no, I am not GM.) There are also some other suggestions at the end of the web page I link to above.
Greetings
I’m usually late to these conversations. I’m still pretty much a face to face kinda guy.
Tony it was an absolute (and you generally won’t catch that word in my vocab.) pleasure to connect with you at cornerstone. I thoroughly enjoyed our conversations and look forward to furthering or friendship. Bless ya man.
I wanted it on the record that I’m only one of a few folks that are the impetus behind the Underground seminar tent. Peter Wohler also being among that number.
As you made mentioned Tony I think one of the major issues crippling the Jesus Movement was the inability at the time to effectively network. Eventually the movement fractured, some folks becoming isolated, with the bulk people being absorbed into Traditional Faith communities. Not only evangelical camps but many liturgical as well... think catholic charismatic, folk mass etc.
Another interesting fact, the Jesus movement was a strange mix of Calvinist theologically and Armenian (Charismatic) practice. This I believe lead to the break down of barriers and helped blur lines. Unfortunately One of the ear marks of the Jesus movement “theologically” was a preoccupation with a dispensational view of the end times…ala Hal Lindsay and the Late great Planet Earth ( left behind is really just left over residue).
'Five and ten years ago, the seminar tents were populated with seminars on modern, evidential apologetics" The fact that the likes of Evangelicals for Social Action, Christian Peace Keepers, Christians for Biblical Equality, and the Underground (among others) have been present at the festival for some time has no doubt helped to open and promote the present dialogue and facilitate the shift at Cornerstone.
"Oh, I've seen you emergent folks before. In the 70s we called you the Jesus People. You'll grow out of it, just like they did." God I hope not. As you mentioned Tony the death of the Jesus movement has been greatly exaggerated. Not to steal any ones thunder, but in some respects many of us old “hippies” have been on the fringe pursuing emergence before it had a name or a description. I think the ‘emergent movement” will be a round for a long time… in some shape or form, transitioning and growing as people of faith pursue the Heart of the Man that went about everywhere doing good.
Fred as far as the GLTB conversation and Jay Baker…JUPUSA is a community involved in an on going journey… no doubt many of us in this present conversation are not where we were on a number of issue 20, 15, 10,or even 5 years ago. We’re evolving and growing in our understanding. The fact that the conversation took place at the Festival at all is in its self quit telling. I remember a number of years back when they brought in a Palestinian Moslem women to dialogue about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. That was a water shed moment. Your right, it would be wonderful to see Jay Baker Mel White and others in conversation at the Fest.
"Given that such a movement to include GLBT persons has no real, serious precedent in the history of church" …Brad consider, in context the same can be said of the abolition of slavery and the place of woman in society and the church when they became issues of faith. Both of which were championed initially by a relatively small percentage of Christians who saw these as questions of human dignity, the love of God and the Gospel of Christ. Today how many Christians would support slavery and now a large percentage of Christians do not see the scriptures teaching us that woman are subservient second class citizens in the Kingdom of God. I think in years to come the GLBT issue will be looked at similarly.
Forever in the Grip of Grace
Brad Culver
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