To begin to understand the Bible's views (and they are various) on sexuality you need to get into the culture.
Sex was something that came with marriage. For women between the ages of 14 and 18. For men probably a little later. Scripture supports what we see in society and studies of sexual dysfunction show, that human beings are designed to be sexually active from late teenage years onwards.
When I read the Song of Solomon I find an erotic poem describing many different diverse acts of love, most of which happen before the couple are married. Once you key into the imagery there is not much that is not covered. Love is awakened? Perhaps she fell pregnant. It is almost implicit. And so they marry.
Pre-marital sex in Scripture means pre-adult sex. It also means the risks of pregnancy outside of the core economic and family unit. The Gospels are clear that Mary & Joseph did not marry for love after all (although I am sure they grew to love each other) and they story demonstrates the stigma of pre-marital sex. But Joseph's response was one of grace (to put her away not shame her), and grace doubled (to marry Mary). And yes I do hold to the Creedal statements on the Virgin Birth. But is is the appearance of the situation that should guide our response.
So the 'No Sex Before Marriage' argument doesn't wash. The 'Sex is part of the journey of two people towards life long covenant loving commitment' argument does. Contraception offers us more sexual freedom, but not the freedom to be irresponsible, recreational or promiscuous. Remember plenty of STI's are passed on by skin contact, that is by 'fooling around'. The ideal is one intimate sexual partner for life.
So what of same sex relationships in Scripture? King David, despite his many wives and concubines turned down the warming of a young girl on his death bed. The text almost gives us a reason why. His love for Jonathan exceeded his love for any woman. We are not asking what they got up to in private here (although the whole exchanging of armour story makes it pretty clear to me) as that is a secondary issue. Ruth and Naomi is more complicated. Ruth needed a husband, and is guided in seducing Boaz by Naomi. Uncovering 'feet' on the threshing floor is not about a pedicure, feet being a handy Hebrew euphemism for genitals. Gosh aren't biblical sexual ethics interesting?
Jesus deals directly with a same sex relationship. The Centurion and his servant who is 'very dear to him'. Again what they did together in private is irrelevant, as Gerd Theissen points out in the 'Shadow of the Galilean' observers may well have seen the healing as a blessing of a same sex relationship even if the relationship was not 'active'.
The Gospels do dead with serious sexual sin. The abuse of Salome (probably under-age and brought to dance for Herod's courts titillation). The Samaritan woman's multiple partners. The hypocrisy of judging others when we have all committed adultery in our hearts.
So we have two theological streams.
Firstly Sex should be part of the journey towards lifelong commitment. I do believe that a sexual relationship that does not lead to such a covenant relationship and ends requires repentance. Just as we should all repent of adultery of the heart. See I do believe in original sin and there are plenty of sins we commit that we have little control of.
Secondly there are scriptural examples of covenent loving relationships between same sex individuals. Although we cannot make clear conclusions about any physical aspect of those relationships.
Of those '6 texts' the Hebrew ones are the weakest. The shellfish texts shall we say. But Paul's thinking does raise questions.
It depends on how we read Paul.
If we see Paul as conservative then we are left with the position held by many evangelical same sex couples I know. They enjoy celibate covenant loving relationships.
If we see Paul as a liberal radical mystic we may begin to ask questions about how people born same sex orientated can be fully grafted in to the covenant of grace as those of us born gentiles are. Sexual intimacy of some sort is part of this.
As a 'pastor' this is how I approach the issue. My ultimate personal conclusion is that I have no issue with a same sex couple in an unique covenant relationship expressing that relationship in a physical way. That could be hugs, it could be kisses, it could be more. I don't tell wedding couples what they should do or not do in private in great detail. The same for same sex couples. I will give them resources to work with but the degree of celibacy or activity is something they need to ultimately reconcile for themselves.
And when I do work with folks who are of whatever orientation and choose to be promiscuous or polyamourous I remember that my eyes still wander in summer, that I don't do all I can to combat the sexualisation of the under-aged, and that I have failed relationships behind me. Because in my eyes a failed relationship with out full sexual intimacy (kissing girls/boys at bible camp when you were 17 still counts folks) still falls short of God's ideal for us.
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noah, you fell into the trap of criticising someone's spelling whilst negleting your own grammar. After using a "?" you need a capital letter.
Whooopsie!
Ignore the spelling and grammar. Concentrate on the content!
Ok..please, please, please...understand that I'm am not trying to bait anyone but a want honest feedback. WARNING: please leave emotions at the door. I just want cut and dried theological discussion. I am a christian who loves Jesus and is homosexual. Years ago I was part of a 2 year live-in program - part of the ex-gay movement. To this day I love the people who started because I think they truly believed and still do believe this is what God has for them to do. With that being said..it worked of none of us. Out of 30 guys 6 years out of the program, 6 took their lives, 8 died of AIDS and the rest of us are still wandering around in the desert
At one point during the program we started to argue about the fact that there were plenty of very pointed scriptures having to do with God's disapproval of homosexual sex. And Paul's admonition that they were part of the group that would not inherit the kingdom of God. To my knowledge however there is not one SPECIFIC scripture damning suicide in the same way homosexuality is. Yes the general gist is that God does not want us to do ourselves in. BUT...given the choice between the definite chance of being 'lost' with homosexual option A and a better chance of making it to the kingdom through option B suicide (As horrific as that statement is)...at times the leaders would in roundabout ways suggest they'd rather we take the chance with choice B then live a homosexual life that would quite possibly put us in the worst place to spent eternity. In a sick sense, suicide was an option.Please understand...this is a horrible issue and I hate discussing it, but when pushed against the wall 2 friends chose to end their lives because they found it impossible to live single celibate lives. Perhaps suicide is a safety valve of sorts. I know, I know, I sound crazy,...AND I AM NOT SUICIDAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!but I just want some purely NON_EMOTIONAL feedback on a theological level only. thanks.
Your name,
What a sad story - so much unnecessary loss. I hope this is of some help ...
"we started to argue about the fact that there were plenty of very pointed scriptures having to do with God's disapproval of homosexual sex"
There aren't "plenty" of such Scriptures; there's a total of 6 in the entire Bible (google: clobber verses). And, they do not, as was sold to you, have to do "with God's disapproval of homosexual sex". What they 'disapprove' of is: homosexual lust, homosexul rape, and homosexual temple/cult prostitution. (These references and citations are found all over the net.)
Apart from David's love for Jonathon ("surpassing the love of women"), and the story of the centurion who's "slave was dear to him" [some will tell you these were not sexual relationships, but I don't buy it after much research in Concordances and verious translations/versions of Scripture and reading many respected Biblical scholars], there are no references to consenting, loving, committed, adult, human, same-sex relationships in the Bible (again, apart from that of Ruth's devotion to Naomi, which I don't think was sexual at all, but their vows have been usurped for use in heterosexual marriages).
Christ Himself was silent on the issue and it certainly isn't mentioned in the 10 Commandments, nor inthe 2 that Christ left us with.
As for seeking "NON-EMOTIONAL" theological discussions on the topic, I'm afraid you won't find them here on Beliefnet. Too much fundamentalist baggage - from all quarters.
Richie,
I think Panthera left because of all the hostility he encountered here. So let me answer for him...
"Let me ask you something. Would you agree that if you looked at the entire narrative of the scripture as a whole, that #1 - the issue of same sex sexual relations is looked upon by God as stated in scripture as a negative and not good thing;"
No. I would not agree. See my comments above to Your Name. The kinds of relationships we are discussing are almost entirely absent in the Bible, and the 6 references that are there do not address them. As mentioned, they address homosexual rape, homosexual lust and homosexual cult/temple prostitution. And I have no problems with those condemnations.
"and #2 - Given that"
Sorry, but it isn't a "given".
"can you show me anywhere scripturally or even in any early church writings that condone such lifestyles?"
The "lifestyles" we are discussing are not what you are discussing. And therein lies the problem. Of course, the problem begins when/because you only think of us having sex - constantly referring to some vague, erroneous "lifestyle" and not God's gay and lesbian children actually living our lives, fully and under God's care.
I see no where in Scripture where David's love for Jonathan was not "condoned". But your side won't acknowledge it for what it actually was, so there's hardly any point in discussing things we cannot even agree on to begin with.
As for the "early Church writings" (or at least, what we have left of them), have been greatly altered/edited over time. Many people here on B'net are scholars of Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek (in which those "writings' were written), I would recommend the research of both Dr. Tom Hanks (not the actor) and John Boswell (former head of the Medieval History dept. at Yale), among others. There are documented cases of same-sex relationships not only flourishing, but actually be blessed within the Church. Google Saints Sergius and Bachus, for one example.
Hey guys:
First of all my name is Brian. I guess I pressed the enter key when I was posting before I entered all my info.
Thank you for your posts. Because I didn't quite know how personal I could get – besides the suicides I mentioned..there is one more that is just about destroying me. My partner of 8 years, took his life on August 4th. It was basically alcohol and he just couldn't stop. He'd been Sober (AA) for 20 years and then one day turned to me and said 'Brian I'm just so so tired of this fight, I'm going to start drinking again and let the chips fall where they will. Needless to say he lost his job and our relationship ended. I left in July – defeated, so full of despair, and fear for Bradley eventually succumbing to liver damage or another alcohol related disease.
I know he was a Christian. He loved Jesus and loved to praise him. My questions:
1. Does sometimes God take his children out of this world because of he knows how much we can and cannot handle, especially when it gets into the psychiatric/chemical/addiction issue?
2. What do you think God’s view is on suicide? I know we were given our lives by him and I know the blood that Jesus shed on the cross brought us redemption forever, so in that sense our lives are his and not ours to take. But given his mercy and grace how does he view it in light of the psych issues I just mentioned. I guess in my grief- I’m trying to figure out God’s take on it. Perhaps it’s something we can’t know on this side.
Again, thank you for your reply(s)
Blessings. Brian
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