Tony Jones: February 2009 Archives

Brian does the unthinkable and defends Pelagius (against Augustine)!  Watch out, Brian, the NeoReformed stormtroopers went after Scot McKnight last week, and they'll probably come after you here!

Pelagius brought up good points that are often ignored. First, he argued that humanity has salvation through God's "original grace." This prevenient grace is God's free gift to humanity. Second, Pelagius sugguested that humanity has a "grace of revelation" whereby God gives us divine guidence to follow, if we so choose to follow it. Scripture and Christ both point the way we are to follow. Third, he affirmed that God gives the "grace of pardon" to those who freely change their lives and attempt to live faithfully. So we have a morally neutral human condition that is faced with the decision of choosing between faith and sin, good and bad.

For Pelagius, our human condition isn't defined by original sin, yet he still understands that our lives are impacted by sin. He says, "By force of habit, sin attains a power akin to that of nature - sin becomes as it were 'second nature'." Therefore, he takes the reality of sin seriously. But he also thinks that we have the power and responsibility to overcome this "force of habit" through God's grace and guidence. And that is where Augustine departs from Pelagius. Augustine relinquishes human responsibility.

As we enter the season of Lent, here are some resources to get you thinking about alternatives to the penal substitutionary theory (yes, friends, it's a theory!) of the atonement.

At Zoecarnate, Mike Morrell proposes that we look beyond liberal and conservative ideas of the atonement, then he proposes a revisioning of the entire issue.

Last year, Emergent Village sponsored a contest looking for new, preachable metaphors for the atonement.  I talked to Mark Baker about the contest on the EV podcast.  And last Good Friday, we announced the winners.

Finally, Mark has some great resources on his seminary website, as well as two books on the topic.

Hate.

We've got a nice thread going on free will and determinism around these parts.  Albert the Abstainer chimes in:

Real free will: An ability to choose alternatives such that the possibility of an alternative action is real and not the product of a particular history of preceding events.

Free will: A state wherein a person experiences the sense of choosing to act. The state itself is real, (i.e. existent/emergent), but the action is the product of a particular history of preceding events. (In other words the actor does not have any degree of freedom. ) That requires that an act, other than the one which results, was a possible outcome. This form of free will is subjective not actual.

State: A state is a discrete condition. A mental state is a discrete state of mind. A machine state is a discrete state, (i.e. the switch is on or the switch is off.)

" a place in the unfolding tapestry which is necessary and contingent" - the universe unfolds moment to moment changing with the passing of time. I am a member of the set and process that is the universe. My existence is necessary by the fact that I exist. My existence is contingent in that it requires a particular history, (i.e. another history could have occurred such that I do not exist.)

Here it is:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/tonyjones/rss.xml

Yay!  Albert the Abstainer is back!Real free will is illusionary. Don't believe me, try controlling your thoughts or dreams. The state we occupy is continuously changing in response to being a physical part of a physical universe. Our complexity not...

Here's the next in my occasional series with Mark Patrick, my spiritual director.Tony: Mark, one of the things that you've said to me that caused me a great deal of introspection came in the late summer.  I was describing to...

LeRon Shults announces a new book and a discussion on his blog about the book.  The book, Seeking the Identity of Jesus, gathered scholars to write about, well, Jesus' identity.  Among other things, they agreed on the following nine points:1....

I'm glad to see that my weekend quote of Dante stirred up some commentary.  Here's one, from Ben, followed by a response from me. (My apologies for Ben's masculine language.)I'm not sure how to understand Dante's use of "free will"...

The Original Sin SeriesIntro-Intuition-Definition-Genesis-Jesus-Paul-Augustine-Calvin-ConclusionThe shadow of Augustine of Hippo looms large over the entire subsequent development of the doctrine of Original Sin.  We'll get into his authorship of the doctrine qua doctrine in a minute, but first let's remember the...

The greatest gift that God in His bounty made in creation, and the most conformable to His goodness, and that which He prizes the most, was the freedom of will, with which the creatures with intelligence, they all and they...

Rick is honing in on his finalists.  Hilarious:David Wilcox- white guy folk singer. Cannot do it. Of course, he deals with spirituality in a way that is emerging and is one of the only white earnest folkies I can stand....

For the sake of our discussion of Original Sin, commenter Brian has translated Romans 5 [UPDATE: it seems to be Romans 14-15] on our behalf.  Thanks, Brian!  (N.B., mean-spirited comments about his translation will be immediately deleted.  Thoughtful, albeit critical,...

Brian has a warning for Mark Driscoll and other expanding evangelical ministries:Thanks for this post. This is depressing news. I don't mean any disrespect to these folks personally. I know they can be very kind, good people in person. So...

So, I'm on a panel with one of the authors of an anti-emergent book at the Christian Book Expo next month, and I emailed his publisher, Moody Publishing, to get a review copy of the book (no, I haven't read...

Mark Driscoll watchdog, Bob Hyatt, has some concerns about a possible Mars Hill franchise coming to Portland.Please understand- If you want to listen to Mark's podcast/watch his vodcast, I think you should go for it- I subscribe to his podcast...

FYI, Captcha was disabled for about a week -- we were listening to those of you who were frustrated with the Bnet comment interface.  As you might guess, we were inundated by spam comments during this time.  So, now we're...

If you haven't been following along there's a great comment string under Monday's post, Is Virtual Community True Community?, then you're missing out.Particularly interesting, IMHO, are the comments from stay-at-home-moms Julie and Kristi about the great value of virtual community...

Under Original Sin: Paul, Romans 5, and the Heart of the Issue, Emergent Pillage brings up a point that has vexed me for some time.  He (I assume EP is a "he") baldly asserts that if you think that Paul...

Under Original Sin: Paul, Romans 5, and the Heart of the Issue, Brian provides with a helpful primer to the various views of interpreting Romans:Romans is important to the conversation about the doctrine of "Original Sin" for several reasons. First,...

Thanks, Brian, for this response to Mrs. Darwin Would Be Proud:Octavia Butler has written a couple of wonderful books called The Parable of the Sower and The Parable of the Talents. In these books she includes poetry about an emerging,...

Separated at birth?You decide....

Last week at the National Pastors Convention, Shane Hipps sat down with the guys from Out of Ur and talked about community, based on his new book, Flickering Pixels.  (Full disclosure: Shane is one of my very best friends --...

The Original Sin SeriesIntro-Intuition-Definition-Genesis-Jesus-Paul-Augustine-Calvin-ConclusionWell, now we get to the heart of the matter, and the passage that so many of my blogopponents have been waiting for: Romans 5.  It's in this chapter that Paul writes most specifically about the inherited...

"Friendship is the only cure for hatred, the only guarantee of peace." ~Buddha(HT: Tiny Buddha)...

Charles Darwin's wife, Emma, famously disliked her husband's theories, and he actually wrote On the Origin of Species in a way that he hoped wouldn't be offensive to her.  Well, it seems that a sesquicentury later, the two are still...

Andrew Sullivan posted a graf from Alan Jacobs in which Jacobs argues that the "architecture" of blogs makes it impossible to honestly converse about important and weighty matters, like the existence of God.  This question is particularly compelling for this...

Rick takes a break from telling us how the music that we love (read, Coldplay) actually sucks :-) to round up many of the new hyphen-mergent groups:Relevemergentthe fine line between Relevant magazine, cool churches with smoke machines, killer bands and...

That's the dream of none other than esteemed Catholic theologian, Hans Kung.  At Religion Dispatches, Rosemary Ganley reports,To get right to the point, Kung in his article on February 3, wished Barack Obama were Pope. "The mood in the church...

Help add to Brandon's list of crazy stuff you've heard around church.  My faves:1. Your message was good. You didn't blaspheme the Holy Spirit or anything.2. What is the deal with your weight?9. Don't you think your secretary is too...

In this week's edition of Newsweek, Richard Mouw, the president of Fuller Theological Seminary, penned an essay, "Less Shouting, More Talking," in which he addresses the issues around Prop 8.  It's clear that he wrote it, in part, as a...

Thanks, Brian:The Quaker theologian Parker Palmer says it well: "Truth is an ongoing conversation about things that matter."...

These Christians don't....um...you know......

Charles Taylor's A Secular Age, is magisterial in its scope, and timely in its topic.  It's a massive book at over 800 pages, but I'm tackling it because several persons have said it will be invaluable to my dissertation.  The...

Brian gives some excellent context to the world the Jesus was born into, and unpacks the Hebrew background to the concept of sin:There is no such thing as original sin in the book of Genesis. Judaism has no such doctrine....

Many thanks to all of my well-wishers.  My semi-laminectomy/microdiscectomy was a success.  The surgeon said that he removed 3 cm of herniated disc, one of the largest discectomies that he's ever performed.  I am narced up, but I can tell...

KE Alexander on Original Sin:The problem with a Reformation view of original sin is that it tends to free one from responsibility for one's actions. That is not to say that our human faculties and/or affections have not been corrupted...

Over at Awakenings, Mike joins the chorus of which I am a part: Those who think that Jeff Sharlet's The Family is a must-read:Sharlet's writing is so good that a quick read is almost impossible. Skim this book, and you'll...

Occasional blogger and always philosopher, Kevin Corcoran, has written a bit about his experience on the emerging church panel at the recent Calvin Worship Symposium.  It seems that the panelists were asked about what beliefs are necessary to be a...

Yes. Theologian-Scientist-Believer Philip Clayton answers that question, and has some hard words for pastors.  He and I tend to agree that theology is latent in all human endeavors (see chapter 4, "The Theology, Stupid!")....

Dan H. brings up a point that raises a big question (which I've emboldened) in response to Original Sin: Jesus' Ambivalence:Hmm. I would agree that Jesus never articulates an Augustinian understanding of 'original sin'. But I would also agree with...

Tripp Fuller and I are recruiting YOU to ask your biggest question about God via YouTube to some of the top theologians in the world. See the list of theologians who will attempt to answer your questions.BAM!...

In high school, I was the president of the Led Zeppelin Fan Club.  It was a small club, but we were zealots.  My best friend, Todd, and I must have watched The Song Remains the Same over 100 times --...

The Original Sin SeriesIntro-Intuition-Definition-Genesis-Jesus-Paul-Augustine-Calvin-ConclusionFirst, let it be said that Jesus is not recorded in the gospels as saying anything that can be construed as particularly supportive of the doctrine of Original Sin.  Jesus did talk about sin, to be sure...

"We live in a condition where we cannot help but be aware that there are a number of different construals, views which intelligent, reasonably undeluded people, of good will, can and do disagree on. We cannot help looking over our...

That's what awaits me next Wednesday, on the L4-L5 disc....

Jenell Paris has continues her provocative series.6. Evangelicalism Likes Prioritizing the Superiority of Its Point of ViewI wrote about a man who moves from Christian faith to atheism, and evangelicalism worried that I was showing more credence for his point...

Jason Byassee, late of the Christian Century, is now at the helm of a new online offering from Duke Divinity School: Faith & Leadership: Where Christian Leaders Reflect, Connect, and Learn.  It's a good looking site, and it should have...

I was really, truly excited about Tom Daschle as HHS Secretary.  I think he is a fundamentally good person.  Larry Lessig agrees, but says that doesn't excuse him:Daschle, of course, is the most innocent in this guilty system. His plan...

Andrew weighs in on "Progressive" or "Liberal":Maybe I'm just anal retentive but I think that the term "progressive" is a lot like the term "evangelical." It's just an easy way for folks to compartmentalize others (and maybe even themselves) into...

Philip Clayton (who is, by the way, da bomb!) tells us:...

Over at GetReligion, Mollie dissects a WaPo story on the new Religious Left...um...er...the religious "progressives."Progressive? Is this the best descriptor for religious groups who advocate for liberal political aims? I have used the term regularly in the past and can...

I had the best of intentions to post a "Mondays with Mark" and a reflection on Original Sin and Romans 5.  But, instead, I spent most of the day in doctors' offices, at the pharmacy, getting another MRI, and being...

I'll be on Todd Friel's "Wretched Radio" program today at 3pm EST to talk about my recent posts on Original Sin.  His show is on Sirius Radio and online.Call in!UPDATE: Not going on the show today.  Todd and I...

Scott M drops some historical and biblical context on Original Sin:For that matter, Ethan, I could have pointed to the very first controversy that resulted in the council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. I didn't do so because the Scripture...

Andrew Sullivan weighs in on that question.Traditional newspapers are dying, to be sure (although I think that some of them will have a future as non-profits).  Andrew thinks that traditional publishing (ink-on-dead-trees) is in a similar state.  Money quote:My own...